Domains for Elemental Gods?

[Palanan]

Say you have a compact pantheon of only four gods, one for each of the standard elements. Each of them will automatically receive the domain corresponding to their particular element—Earth, Air, Fire, Water—but what other domains should they receive?

Domains like Charm, Law, Glory and Trickery are based on abstract concepts, and wouldn’t necessarily be affiliated with any one element. While there are a few domains that could plausibly have a connection—Weather for Air, Plant for Earth, Sun for Fire—there aren’t enough domains to round out each god with a full complement.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of subdomains, some of which would be obvious candidates, such as Ice, Light, Ash, Caves, etc. In this situation, would it be too disruptive for a cleric to take both a domain and an affiliated subdomain, such as Water and Ice, or Earth and Caves?

[Cosi]

I think you should absolutely assign the gods domains based on abstract concepts. That adds some character beyond "it is a big blob of element" to the gods, which is good. Look at how the Codex Alera books give out secondary powers. Yes, being an Earthcrafter gives you the ability to summon earth elementals and be really strong, but it also gives you some animal magic. Firecrafters have fear powers. And so on.

So, some possibilities for each element (from this list (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/Index_LevDom.php)):

Water: Commerce (ocean-going trade is important), Knowledge (secrets of the deep ocean), Time (oceans are really old)
Air: Destiny (air has some associations with divination and works as a sort of wandering "go out and seek your destiny" deal), Trickery (associations with faeries), Moon (it is in the sky, and it works with the Fae angle with Mab being "queen of air and darkness)
Fire: Competition (emotions like passion or envy that drive competition have some fire associations), Glory (pretty much the same), Joy (gotta stick some positive emotions in there somewhere)
Earth: Artifice (dwarves live underground and craft stuff, metals are used in crafting), Creation (pretty much the same), Death (the underworld is underground for a reason)

My recommendation would be to do something like the early versions of the Chaos gods where each god has some positive associations and some negative ones and there are a variety of different sects that emphasize different parts. So sympathetic Fire cultists that value the artistic and creative aspects of fire, but also destructive ones that value, well, destruction.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cosi
I think you should absolutely assign the gods domains based on abstract concepts.

You have a few interesting examples, but this isn’t the approach I’ll be using. I should clarify my core question, which is whether it would be unbalancing to allow a cleric to take both a domain and an affiliated subdomain.

Also, please note this is for Pathfinder. Your linked list seems to be based on 3.5, but my question revolves around subdomains, which as far as I know are Pathfinder-specific.

[Florian]

@Palanan:

You should decide whether you want an antagonistic or complementalist pantheon. For the later, take a look at L5R: Each of the classic four elements is associated with physical as well as mental traits. Fire is associated with raw power and creativity, while Air is associated with illusion and deception and Earth is pure endurance and covers all purifying and protective things. There´s no inherent antagonism here (law vs. chaos), things rather tend to be specialized and complement each other.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Florian
You should decide whether you want an antagonistic or complementalist pantheon.

Thanks for the very different perspective on pantheons. Interesting, but I’m not framing the pantheon in those terms.

What I’m really looking for is a clear answer on whether there’s a mechanical issue created by allowing a cleric to take both a domain and an associated subdomain, e.g. Fire and Ash. Since subdomains seem to be mechanically identical to domains, just with a narrower thematic focus, I’m not seeing an obvious issue—but I’m not that experienced with evaluating the relative power of domain options, so I’d appreciate any thoughts on this.

If the overall effect is to have a cleric with a slightly narrower range of options, I’m okay with that; but I’m not sure if that would necessarily be the effect, and I’m not sure what else I may be overlooking here.

[Aldrakan]

What I’m really looking for is a clear answer on whether there’s a mechanical issue created by allowing a cleric to take both a domain and an associated subdomain, e.g. Fire and Ash. Since subdomains seem to be mechanically identical to domains, just with a narrower thematic focus, I’m not seeing an obvious issue—but I’m not that experienced with evaluating the relative power of domain options, so I’d appreciate any thoughts on this.

If the overall effect is to have a cleric with a slightly narrower range of options, I’m okay with that; but I’m not sure if that would necessarily be the effect, and I’m not sure what else I may be overlooking here.

A subdomain only replaces some of the domain spells and powers, so having a domain and its subdomain is partially redundant. See Water and Ice for a particularly dire example, with Ice replacing a grand total of two spells.

Generally the subdomain only replaces one domain power, and so it nets you a single domain power and a handful of domain spells.

I think you're underestimating how much flexibility this costs you, and the elemental domains are already...not great - see that worthless ray attack they're all stuck with.
Domains are practically the only feature clerics have that let you tell one from the other, I recommend against this.

You could use Erosion as a non-abstract associated domain for Water, it's technically druid but it fits okay.

[Psyren]

Domains like Charm, Law, Glory and Trickery are based on abstract concepts, and wouldn’t necessarily be affiliated with any one element. While there are a few domains that could plausibly have a connection—Weather for Air, Plant for Earth, Sun for Fire—there aren’t enough domains to round out each god with a full complement.

I don't think I'd agree with this; while a given abstract concept could probably fit multiple elements as you say, very few I feel would fit none at all. So just divide them up as best you can and each deity will have plenty. For example, don't be overly concerned with whether Darkness would fit best with being interred deep beneath the earth, or the lightless depths of the ocean - just assign it to whichever you like better or whichever needs one more after you've assigned the others. Furthermore, I wouldn't be too worried about preventing overlap either - maybe both earth and water clerics would get it.


Meanwhile, there are plenty of subdomains, some of which would be obvious candidates, such as Ice, Light, Ash, Caves, etc. In this situation, would it be too disruptive for a cleric to take both a domain and an affiliated subdomain, such as Water and Ice, or Earth and Caves?

I don't think it would be disruptive at all, but it would probably be a pretty raw deal for the cleric. They'd be giving up on at least one domain power in most cases (relative to a cleric with two non-associated domains) and several domain spells too.

[Peat]

Domains are practically the only feature clerics have that let you tell one from the other, I recommend against this.


Unless they're giving up one of their domains for an Archetype.

That or Oracle would be my considered response to this scenario.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aldrakan
Generally the subdomain only replaces one domain power, and so it nets you a single domain power and a handful of domain spells.

I think you're underestimating how much flexibility this costs you….


Originally Posted by Psyren
I don't think it would be disruptive at all, but it would probably be a pretty raw deal for the cleric. They'd be giving up on at least one domain power in most cases (relative to a cleric with two non-associated domains) and several domain spells too.

Thanks very much—this is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. It sounds like a domain plus associated subdomain is a net loss for the cleric, which on its own wouldn’t be good.

So, what about adding something to make up for it? I’m thinking of borrowing from the elementalist wizard schools, and granting the cleric one bonus spell slot per level (in addition to the domain slot) which would grant access to an arcane spell from the elemental school’s spell list. Naturally the elemental school would match the chosen elemental deity, and this would reflect the cleric’s greater focus on that particular element.

Would that be workable? It's still thematic, and gives the cleric access to a set of handy arcane spells.

[Psyren]

Thanks very much—this is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. It sounds like a domain plus associated subdomain is a net loss for the cleric, which on its own wouldn’t be good.

So, what about adding something to make up for it? I’m thinking of borrowing from the elementalist wizard schools, and granting the cleric one bonus spell slot per level (in addition to the domain slot) which would grant access to an arcane spell from the elemental school’s spell list. Naturally the elemental school would match the chosen elemental deity, and this would reflect the cleric’s greater focus on that particular element.

Would that be workable? It's still thematic, and gives the cleric access to a set of handy arcane spells.

Seems fine to me. What about the redundant domain powers though?

For example, Earth and Caves both share the "Acid Dart" power, so a cleric who took both under your modified system would be missing a power. I would suggest giving them access to an elementalist wizard power of equal or lower level than the domain power they're missing instead - so for example, an Earth/Caves Cleric could get either the Earth Supremacy or Acid Cloud power from the Earth domain to put alongside their Acid Dart.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Seems fine to me. What about the redundant domain powers though?

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate it. After looking through the subdomains, I’m thinking that approach really isn’t going to work like I’d hoped it would.

So, I went ahead and assigned regular domains to each of the four elemental deities, following my own concept for this pantheon:


Fire - Community, Fire, Magic, Sun
Air - Air, Animal, Magic, Weather
Water - Magic, Travel, Water, Weather
Earth - Earth, Magic, Mountain, Plant

In this pantheon, Fire and Air are tightly allied, and Water and Earth are equally close. Because of this, and because of the reduced number of domains for each deity, I’m thinking of allowing clerics to choose one domain from their primary deity and one from the other member of that pair. This means a cleric of the Air deity could choose Animal and Community, or a cleric of the Water deity could choose Travel and Mountain, etc.

Would this approach provide enough flexibility to make up for the reduced number of domains from each individual deity? And if so, would it still be workable to add the bonus elemental spell slot, as per the elementalist wizard?

[Psyren]

Wouldn't that let Fire clerics choose Weather?

I think you should just go through the domains/subdomains and assign them to each element (with some fitting in multiple elements as needed, e.g. Weather belonging to both Air and Water.) Having to work through allegiances and redundant bonuses and whatnot just strikes me as too much complexity for not enough gain. Your players should get a clear list saying which domains they can choose from.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Wouldn't that let Fire clerics choose Weather?

That would be one possibility, yes. Lightning can start fires. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Psyren
Having to work through allegiances and redundant bonuses and whatnot just strikes me as too much complexity for not enough gain.

Hmm, okay. What about the bonus elementalist spells? I like the idea of giving them a little extra for their chosen element.

[Psyren]

I said the elementalist spells were fine to sub previously.

Really, it's all fine, just do what you want. As long as what you're giving them isn't higher level than what they would be getting with two regular domains you're fine.

[Palanan]

Okay, I appreciate the input.

[Florian]

Thanks for the very different perspective on pantheons. Interesting, but I’m not framing the pantheon in those terms.

Just pointing out a very common mistake with "D&D-style" pantheons.

When doing something like a rather simple "four elemental" gods things, it would be easier to first identify all the domains that you want in the game. Then you should identify what domains are more attributed to "divinity" or "the nature of the universe" itself, then on one of the four elemental gods.
For example, it would make much more sense in this setup to drop the alignment and outer planes-based domains and subdomains and shift the basic stuff, like "Life" and "Death" away from the elementals and into a "common shared divinity". In this setup, a cleric must pick an elemental patron and chose the first domain from their closely associated list, but is free to choose the second domain from either the patron or the common list.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Florian
Just pointing out a very common mistake with "D&D-style" pantheons.

I’m honestly not sure what you’re considering the “mistake” here.


Originally Posted by Florian
In this setup, a cleric must pick an elemental patron and chose the first domain from their closely associated list, but is free to choose the second domain from either the patron or the common list.

That’s an interesting idea, thanks.

:smallsmile: