Vicious Mockery vs. Menacing (UA Feats for Skills) (plus AnyDice Help)

[Grog Logs]

One of my players wants to take Menacing from the Unearthed Arcana: Feats for Skills for excellent in-character reasons. However, I am having some difficulty determining whether the third bullet point about frightening a humanoid is balanced or not. I am also concerned about it overshadowing Vicious Mockery (VM), especially as there are two Bards in the Party. (The other Party members are Champion Fighter, melee strength based UA Revised Ranger, and UA Gunsmith Artificer.) The Party is Level 4.

I know that as the DM it is ultimately my call, but I like to understand the math of the game when determining balance. I know that who can be targeted favors VM (i.e., any hearing creature vs. only humanoids only), but the effect of the target is worse for Menacing (i.e., frightened affects all attack rolls vs. only the next attack roll) if the humanoid has Multiattack. I consider the VM damage negligible.

Understanding Menacing
Question 1a: What is the PCs chance of successfully Menacing a humanoid? The PC has +5 to Initmidation and, let's assume, the humanoid has +0 Insight.

Question 1b: How do I represent Question 1a on anydice.com? I am currently using "output (d20+5)- d20", with view "Table" and Data "At Least" and looking at 1 (which is when the PC's value is higher than the humanoid's value). This results in 70% success for the PC.

Understanding Vicious Mockery
Question 2a: What is a Bard's chance of successfuly using VM against that same humanoid? The Bard's DC is 14 and, let's assume, the humanoid has +0 Wisdom.

Question 2b: How do I represent Question 2a on anydice.com? I am currently using "output (d20)-14", with view "Table" and Data "At Most" and looking at -1 (which is when the the humanoid's value is lower than the DC of 14). This results in 65% success for the PC.

Understanding what went wrong?
Question 3a: What am I doing wrong? How can menacing be more successful than VM when menacing is "Proficiency + Ability Modifier" and VM is "8 + Proficiency + Ability Modifier"?

Question 3b: Assuming that I have not made a major error in Questions 1 or 2 above, which I doubt because of Question 3a, at what levels is Menacing stronger than VM and at what levels is VM stronger than Menacing. Assume the target is a Humanoid with +0 to Wisdom and no training in Insight.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Yep it's unbalanced. One is a cantrip with a saving throw and the other is a mid combat skill battle akin to grappling. Both have infinite uses however fear is way stronger when it hits. On top of that most humanoids haven't specialized in insight skills.

Edit: sorry I was less then helpful.

Understanding what went wrong?
Question 3a: What am I doing wrong? How can menacing be more successful than VM when menacing is "Proficiency + Ability Modifier" and VM is "8 + Proficiency + Ability Modifier"?

I think this is the only one that I might be able to answer.

At a DC of 14 the bard will have a 65% chance of success.

When you have two people who are competing one who's range is from 1-20 and one who's range is from 6-25 that means that if the intimidator rolls 16+ he auto wins even if the other party rolls a 20
If the other party rolls a 5 or below they also auto lose.

Pc avg roll:15.5
Npc avg roll: 10.5

This is actually worse because it's very easy to get advantage on a skill check compared to forcing disadvantage on a saving throw.

[Ventruenox]

I just got my DM to allow the Menacing feat for my Bardlock. It can certainly outshine Viscious Mockery in some encounters. It is a great option against mooks. The diversity of VM to affect non-humanoids balances that out though. As a DM, make use of condition immunities and legendary resistances as you need to.

The imbalance perception comes from the fact that ability check rolls can vary widely, while DCs are static; effectively acting as an 8 on the d20 roll. Ability check contests are pretty simplistic in 5E, and monster statblocks are abysmal in skill proficiencies. So like Grappling, the Frightened status condition will be very easy to impose with this method. The compromise I made to allow the Menacing feat was to contest my ability check against their Wisdom save.

[Avigor]

One of my players wants to take Menacing from the Unearthed Arcana: Feats for Skills for excellent in-character reasons. However, I am having some difficulty determining whether the third bullet point about frightening a humanoid is balanced or not. I am also concerned about it overshadowing Vicious Mockery (VM), especially as there are two Bards in the Party. (The other Party members are Champion Fighter, melee strength based UA Revised Ranger, and UA Gunsmith Artificer.) The Party is Level 4.

I know that as the DM it is ultimately my call, but I like to understand the math of the game when determining balance. I know that who can be targeted favors VM (i.e., any hearing creature vs. only humanoids only), but the effect of the target is worse for Menacing (i.e., frightened affects all attack rolls vs. only the next attack roll) if the humanoid has Multiattack. I consider the VM damage negligible.

Understanding Menacing
Question 1a: What is the PCs chance of successfully Menacing a humanoid? The PC has +5 to Initmidation and, let's assume, the humanoid has +0 Insight.

Question 1b: How do I represent Question 1a on anydice.com? I am currently using "output (d20+5)- d20", with view "Table" and Data "At Least" and looking at 1 (which is when the PC's value is higher than the humanoid's value). This results in 70% success for the PC.

Understanding Vicious Mockery
Question 2a: What is a Bard's chance of successfuly using VM against that same humanoid? The Bard's DC is 14 and, let's assume, the humanoid has +0 Wisdom.

Question 2b: How do I represent Question 2a on anydice.com? I am currently using "output (d20)-14", with view "Table" and Data "At Most" and looking at -1 (which is when the the humanoid's value is lower than the DC of 14). This results in 65% success for the PC.

Understanding what went wrong?
Question 3a: What am I doing wrong? How can menacing be more successful than VM when menacing is "Proficiency + Ability Modifier" and VM is "8 + Proficiency + Ability Modifier"?

Question 3b: Assuming that I have not made a major error in Questions 1 or 2 above, which I doubt because of Question 3a, at what levels is Menacing stronger than VM and at what levels is VM stronger than Menacing. Assume the target is a Humanoid with +0 to Wisdom and no training in Insight.

1b: output 1d20 + 5 > 1d20
2b: output 14 > 1d20
In both cases, the result of "0" means the humanoid wins, "1" means they lose. Also, for advantage, change the "1d20" to "1@2d20", for disadvantage, "2@2d20" on the appropriate side.

I actually just now looked that up in their documentation lol

[Angelalex242]

1b: output 1d20 + 5 > 1d20
2b: output 14 > 1d20
In both cases, the result of "0" means the humanoid wins, "1" means they lose. Also, for advantage, change the "1d20" to "1@2d20", for disadvantage, "2@2d20" on the appropriate side.

I actually just now looked that up in their documentation lol

The bards get stronger faster than the intimidator.

Intimidator gets out to a much faster start, though. Wow. Imagine that on a Paladin of Conquest, who LIVES on fear...

[DarkKnightJin]

VM stays relevant, against non-humanoids too.
I believe that Frightened os a condition that most things start getting resistance or immunity to at some point, making it far less useful, too.

[Grog Logs]

1b: output 1d20 + 5 > 1d20
2b: output 14 > 1d20

Fantastic!


I actually just now looked that up in their documentation lol

*Face palms*

For those curious, Menacing is a raw 2%-5% stronger at most levels. Here is the AnyDice output (http://anydice.com/program/fa55). Here is the
\ Menacing vs. Vicious Mockery \
\ 1 = Monster Affected by Condition \
\ vs. Humanoid w/ +0 Insight, +0 Wis ST \
\ Level 4: \
\ Menacing: +2 Prof +3 Cha \ output 1d20 + 5 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +2 Prof +4 Cha: \ output 14 > 1d20

\ Levels 5-7: \
\ Menacing: +3 Prof +3 Cha \ output 1d20 + 6 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +3 Prof +4 Cha \ output 15 > 1d20

\ Level 8: \
\ Menacing: +3 Prof +4 Cha \ output 1d20 + 7 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +3 Prof +5 Cha \ output 16 > 1d20

\ Levels 9-11: \
\ Menacing: +4 Prof +4 Cha \ output 1d20 + 8 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +4 Prof +5 Cha \ output 17 > 1d20

\ Level 12: \
\ Menacing: +4 Prof +5 Cha \ output 1d20 + 9 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +4 Prof +5 Cha \ output 17 > 1d20

\ Levels 13-16: \
\ Menacing: +5 Prof +5 Cha \ output 1d20 + 10 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +5 Prof +5 Cha \ output 18 > 1d20

\ Levels 17-20: \
\ Menacing: +6 Prof +5 Cha \ output 1d20 + 11 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +6 Prof +5 Cha \ output 19 > 1d20

.

For those curious about my ruling, here is what I am proposing to my player:

Replace the third bullet point of the UA's "Menacing" with the below paragraph. Notice that you can now cause fear on most creatures, not just humanoids:

In addition, you can cast cause fear with this feat (see XGE 151). Once you cast this spell with this feat, you can't cast it again until you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this spell.

Magic Initiate allows one first level spell and cause fear is a first level spell.


Using this hyperlink (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eiNfWAq14MKhXgLEsxnYYQjdX2Ku4cib1tP4UHis1J0/edit#), you can see the relative worth of each part of the feat (even though the guide was made for racial abilities).
[1 - 2] Ability Score Increase. Your _______ score increases by [1 or 2].
[.5] Cantrip. You know [one cantrip of your choice from the _____ spell list]/[the _____ cantrip]. ______ is your spellcasting ability for it.
[.5] Skills. You have proficiency in the _____ skill.
[1 - 1.5] Innate Magic. You know the _____ cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the _____ spell once per day. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the _____ spell once per day. _______ is your spellcasting ability for these spells. [So, essentially, each cantrip is worth 0.5 and each spell is worth 0.5.]

So, the revised Menacing results in:
[1] +1 Cha
[.5] Proficiency in Inimidation
[.5] Cause Fear (XGE 151) (once per long rest, no limits on creature type)[/SPOILER].

[Angelalex242]

Fantastic!



*Face palms*

For those curious, Menacing is a raw 2%-5% stronger at most levels. Here is the AnyDice output (http://anydice.com/program/fa55). Here is the
\ Menacing vs. Vicious Mockery \
\ 1 = Monster Affected by Condition \
\ vs. Humanoid w/ +0 Insight, +0 Wis ST \
\ Level 4: \
\ Menacing: +2 Prof +3 Cha \ output 1d20 + 5 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +2 Prof +4 Cha: \ output 14 > 1d20

\ Levels 5-7: \
\ Menacing: +3 Prof +3 Cha \ output 1d20 + 6 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +3 Prof +4 Cha \ output 15 > 1d20

\ Level 8: \
\ Menacing: +3 Prof +4 Cha \ output 1d20 + 7 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +3 Prof +5 Cha \ output 16 > 1d20

\ Levels 9-11: \
\ Menacing: +4 Prof +4 Cha \ output 1d20 + 8 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +4 Prof +5 Cha \ output 17 > 1d20

\ Level 12: \
\ Menacing: +4 Prof +5 Cha \ output 1d20 + 9 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +4 Prof +5 Cha \ output 17 > 1d20

\ Levels 13-16: \
\ Menacing: +5 Prof +5 Cha \ output 1d20 + 10 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +5 Prof +5 Cha \ output 18 > 1d20

\ Levels 17-20: \
\ Menacing: +6 Prof +5 Cha \ output 1d20 + 11 > 1d20
\ Vicious Mockery: 8 +6 Prof +5 Cha \ output 19 > 1d20

.

For those curious about my ruling, here is what I am proposing to my player:

Replace the third bullet point of the UA's "Menacing" with the below paragraph. Notice that you can now cause fear on most creatures, not just humanoids:

In addition, you can cast cause fear with this feat (see XGE 151). Once you cast this spell with this feat, you can't cast it again until you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this spell.

Magic Initiate allows one first level spell and cause fear is a first level spell.


Using this hyperlink (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eiNfWAq14MKhXgLEsxnYYQjdX2Ku4cib1tP4UHis1J0/edit#), you can see the relative worth of each part of the feat (even though the guide was made for racial abilities).
[1 - 2] Ability Score Increase. Your _______ score increases by [1 or 2].
[.5] Cantrip. You know [one cantrip of your choice from the _____ spell list]/[the _____ cantrip]. ______ is your spellcasting ability for it.
[.5] Skills. You have proficiency in the _____ skill.
[1 - 1.5] Innate Magic. You know the _____ cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the _____ spell once per day. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the _____ spell once per day. _______ is your spellcasting ability for these spells. [So, essentially, each cantrip is worth 0.5 and each spell is worth 0.5.]

So, the revised Menacing results in:
[1] +1 Cha
[.5] Proficiency in Inimidation
[.5] Cause Fear (XGE 151) (once per long rest, no limits on creature type)[/SPOILER].

Seems to me it should be one of those feats where 'If you are already proficient, you gain expertise.'

[Grog Logs]

Seems to me it should be one of those feats where 'If you are already proficient, you gain expertise.'

That is exactly what the second bullet point does. I am trying to find out ways to make Intimidation more useful in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556953-Using-Skills-to-Inflict-Conditions-in-Combat).

[clash]

It's condition should overshadow vicious mockery. Viscous Mockery comes essentially free with the bard class, or at the very least is only competing against another cantrip. It also deals scaling damage using the bards primary ability score. Menacing requires a half-feat to acquire and only deals damage if your subclass supports it (extra attack) and even then the damage uses a bards secondary ability score. Viscous Mockery has a smaller cost to acquire and deals damage for free as part of the action.