Tucker's goblins: AKA making minions fight smarter?

[Doorhandle]

I want to make encounters with goblins a bit more interesting/difficult in my campaign: though I will note the usual "swarm them in melee" slogfest is mostly boring me as a DM rather than my players.
So I want to give the goblins a bit more tactical depth.
The party is level 4, so they have a few options but are still at the point where I don't wave to worry about things like flight.

However, there are a few things I want to avoid:
1. Giving them class levels templates, more hitdie ect.
2. Items that goblins could not reasonably expect to find or craft. The limit is probably potions (they could have a witch doctor) but anything worth more than 100gp is completely out of the question.
3. An over reliance on home ground: the goblins will seek the players out rather than the other way round. Laying ambushes and traps is fair game though.
4. Defensive measures: avoiding damage is ok, but the're still ultimately goblins, fragility is in their nature. Nothing that makes super tanky goblins.

Here's what I have:

Alchemist's fire: low save, but 1d4 fire damage every turn until they get to putting it out is great.

Nets: Restrained is nice: trap the party, then fill 'em with arrows! Or mix it with the above

Poison: Mostly a little extra damage, but poisoning with an unconsciousness component is more interesting: force the party to skip actions to wake their buddies up. The poisoned condition is also pretty great: disadvantage on attack rolls.

Spreading out/hit and run: More of a tactical note, but I have a bad habit of swarming my monsters around the fighter so AOE attacks can take them out. Which is fun for the players, but these goblins operate at a higher standard!

Every goblin is at least 10ft from another goblin, and 35ft from the party, and uses bows/slings/whatever to poke foes to death from range. Whenever the players close in, they use dash as a bonus action to escape, and all goblins reposition themselves to keep firing.

Caltrops/Ball bearings/bear traps/grease:
Can you say area control? Have them set up a line of these, and then the players need to charge through it to melee them! if the goblins outnumber the players enough, you don't even need to plan in advance: have them all set up these lines in the first round.

Smokesticks: Are they still a thing in 5e? I'll house rule it if they're not.

Have the goblins set up behind the smokesticks, and each turn they move out of them, fire, and then dive back in. Fun with concealment!

So, any additional ideas?

[Tetrasodium]

crosbows with spell attack cantrips (ie ray of frost/fire bolt/etc) instead of shooting bolts. Melee weapons with cantrips (ie thorn whip/gust/etc). you can keep the relevant stat a caster stat or have it use the stat applicable to the weapon(ie str/dex). you can have the melee weapons just work or require some kind of recharge/reload of $whatever (i have them just work) It's a big surprise and incredible novelty treasure the first time your players see it... But as a gm you can toss them in pretty much whenever you want without much concern since cantrips are relatively harmless in the grand scheme of things.


You can also throw in single use trinkets with spells attached. .. Feign death false tooth usable on a reaction. Pearl with a fireball/cloud of daggers/etc that may or may not deal a different damage type. Even with a soso DC on it, players seem to treasure these items they almost never use when they find them i dunno why. The most used one I see are false life trinkets (ie level 1-3ish false life) since it's more than a regular health potion & a very reliable result. Trinkets are also good for taking a crappy spell and fixing it to an incredible one (ie feign deth or blade ward as a reaction)

[Eric Diaz]

I know this is really obvious, but you didn't mention nimble escape... "fire and hide" is a deadly tactic! Smart goblins definitely shouldn't "swarm PCs into melee"!

Also they cannot dash as bonus action by RAW IIRC.

[Unoriginal]

Goblins are more than decent archers, they can be devastating with "shoot and run" tactics, especially when targeting the squishy PCs in the back.

[Tanarii]

As I understand it, the reason Tucker's kobolds were so dangerous was that they had a maze of narrow & interlinked passages off the main corridor. This made it hard for human-ish sized creatures to get at them at all, while they could skip ahead to the next ambush point along the corridor.

Also the game didn't have Ready actions to kill them as soon as they showed themselves.

[Doorhandle]

Also they cannot dash as bonus action by RAW IIRC.

You're right, it's disengage, not dash.
Kind of odd for the whole "smokesticks as cover" strategy as it means they have to start in front ot them and the move behind it, but I guess it's kinda workable.

[Tanarii]

Movement can be split around attacks. They can move out to attack, attack, move back behind them, then hide as a bonus action if they like.

There's not much point in hiding unless your smokestacks make a big enough cloud though, the PC will still know where they must be and can shoot there. And the way not seeing targets and not seeing attackers works in 5e, the disadvantage and advantage will cancel out. Unless you house rule that. It'll prevent any spell that requires seeing the target though.

[Kane0]

Well with their bonus action disengage the melee ones can do the goblin conga line without evem the first opportunity attack, each moving in to swing then away again. Preferably behind cover and somewhat spread out.

[smcmike]

Does the whole party have darkvision? If not, play with that. Let’s say the party is camping on a moonless night in fairly open terrain. They have a fire going, so the campsite is lit up. Goblins spot this from a distant hilltop, and while they aren’t geniuses, they know the area and make their living ambushing travelers.

So, they sneak up on the campsite from two directions. Stay out of the firelight, but get to short range with your weapon - 80’ with a shortbow. One side sets some hunting traps or other nasty surprises, then starts launching arrows into the camp. The other side waits. When the party engages, the first side tries to scatter and hide, and the second side attacks anyone who stays in the camp and/or tries to steal their stuff.

[Princess]

Bonus action hide + firing arrows in the middle of movement + rocky, lumpy terrain that goblins can hide in = advantage on attacks every round their stealth check beats the passive perception of their target

[JoeJ]

Smokesticks: Are they still a thing in 5e? I'll house rule it if they're not.

Have the goblins set up behind the smokesticks, and each turn they move out of them, fire, and then dive back in. Fun with concealment!

That also works with bushes and/or tall grass.

[Spookykid]

they can also ride wolves for added fun

[krazedkoi]

I'm gonna just be an echo chamber here

1) The smoke stick idea is good, made better if the party doesn't have darkvision and you hit them at night
2 Shoot and Scoot with crossbows - mixing it up and giving them access to "special ammo" that does bonus elemental damage (or just cantrip damage) is fun and lets you deal with Heavy Armor Master or Resistances
3) Bonus action disengage lets you do the goblin conga line should they get engaged on in melee
4) keep them in pockets, spread out and not massed. Pull the party in different directions and maybe have a few melee goblins hiding in the wings waiting for the casters to be exposed and isolated as you pull their frontline out of position.
5) identify how the party likes to fight then deny them of that. Do they fight front-to-back, do they dive, do they prefer to kite-n-fight?
6) caltrops in the night are hilarious

[MrStabby]

My stance is lots and lots of low level effects that all add up to a really dangerous encounter, especially whilst outnumbered.

1) Stinkbombs - stinking cloud spell effect in a 10ft radius, DC12. Does not do harm but can screw up some plans and can make PCs spread out.

2) Poison (already mentioned) - even a low DC can make those without Con save proficiency a bit nervous. Poisoned condition plus an extra d6 damage

3) Curse - same effect as the bane spell on a failed save

4) Tripwires - DC 16 percpetion check to spot or fall prone when passing them. Advantage to spot if someone has already tripped over the wires. Can be used either to keep PCs out of melee combat for a turn or so that goblins can then mob that PC with advantage

5) Pit traps. Mold earth in only a cantrip, can quickly make some nasty traps with spiked at the bottom. DC 13 perception check or fall in the hole taking 2d8 piercing damage and must succeed in a DC 15 Athletics check to climb out (using an action)

6) Glowdarts - arrows with fairy fire effects on a hit (no save to avoid, lasts 2 turns)

7) Readied actions from hiding - let someone run through cover and then be shot by 8 goblins

8) An occasional wand - wand of web is quite nice as is want of magic missiles.

9) Mud. Turning earth to mud to build a quagmire that leaves the PCs stuck in the open whilst goblins shoot them from cover is nice.

10) Climb trees. Those extra couple of turns to climb up and shake those goblins loose can cost the PCs. Nice as it adds some extra use to the rogue climbing abilities and similar.

11) Bigger traps - Hit and run is great, what is better is if the PCs follow the goblins into a circle of straw that the goblins then set ablaze

12) sabotage - PCs must make a perception check (by whoever is on watch) to detect that a goblin has poisoned their food and water. Once the players eat/drink and feel really sick, then the goblins attack.

13) Sleepless nights. Those that the goblins wish to destroy they first deprive of sleep. Goblin bagpipers prevent the party taking long rests. Survival check to track the pipers, possibly leading the PCs into an ambush. Without restocking spell slots and with some exhaustion levels goblins can be more dangerous.

[kardar233]

There are a lot of good ideas here. I just want to add a cautionary note: at this level, your party is still in the bracket where it could lose to a sizeable group of goblins without these tools and tactics. I would be very careful running this, especially if you are going to have them work to deny rests as was just suggested; without third level spells and extra attacks, they may not be capable of winning this.

Also, I’d do something nice for your melee fighters after this. They’re probably going to be feeling pretty useless.

[GreyBlack]

Have goblins in hiding who shut doors behind the players and then light the door on fire in an attempt to suffocate them.

Pour boiling oil on the players from an elevated position.

Describe a sticky substance covering the ground of a room, then have a goblin throw a torch on the ground causing it to light on fire.

[Tetrasodium]

There are a lot of good ideas here. I just want to add a cautionary note: at this level, your party is still in the bracket where it could lose to a sizeable group of goblins without these tools and tactics. I would be very careful running this, especially if you are going to have them work to deny rests as was just suggested; without third level spells and extra attacks, they may not be capable of winning this.

Also, I’d do something nice for your melee fighters after this. They’re probably going to be feeling pretty useless.

this is true, up until level 5-10ish a band of smart opponents attacking with the terrain stacked in their favor is going to murder a group of level 4's because there is not much room between hurt & murder till later. I like the cantrips & trinkets because you can pull them out on a whim withouttoo much concern. In general it doesn't matter if you are getting hit with 1dX+dex piercing damage from a bow/crossbow or 1d6/1d8/1d10 cold/fire/etc damage from a cantrip spitting crssbow that uses dex for targeting, but it is a different change of pace. "The goblins run like hell & hide in the bushes", "you don't see them with that perception roll but might be able to track them" is boring while "and the goblin makes a rude gesture before smashing a silvered pearl to the ground -insert cloud of daggers- & running like hell with their crossbows leveled ready to cut down anyone brave or stupid enough to give chase" is different & exciting.

[MrStabby]

There are a lot of good ideas here. I just want to add a cautionary note: at this level, your party is still in the bracket where it could lose to a sizeable group of goblins without these tools and tactics. I would be very careful running this, especially if you are going to have them work to deny rests as was just suggested; without third level spells and extra attacks, they may not be capable of winning this.

Also, I’d do something nice for your melee fighters after this. They’re probably going to be feeling pretty useless.

I don't know how bad things will be for the melee fighters relative to the rest of the party.

Ranged fighters will have to contend with cover and obscurement, if there are snares or web effects then the strongest will benefit. If using poison then constitution saves will abound (although this can affect everyone it tends to be a little more for the melee fighters). It may be hard to get into melee combat with the goblins, but when the PCs do the fight should be pretty one sided.

[kardar233]

I don't know how bad things will be for the melee fighters relative to the rest of the party.

Ranged fighters will have to contend with cover and obscurement, if there are snares or web effects then the strongest will benefit. If using poison then constitution saves will abound (although this can affect everyone it tends to be a little more for the melee fighters). It may be hard to get into melee combat with the goblins, but when the PCs do the fight should be pretty one sided.

I think it’ll be worse for melee because the goblins’ hit and fade ability allows them to hide and move away from retaliation range. Melee characters will have to ready actions for when the goblins attack and since you can only ready a single move, a goblin more than 30ft away is safe from melee reprisal. Furthermore, since melee characters have to move and have to do so in fairly predictable directions, they’re much more likely to run into traps or ambushes.

[Kane0]

Goblins also have a speed of 30'. Any that are closing to attack in melee then bonus action disengaging won't be farther than one turn of movement away unless there is something that slows the PCs down but not the goblins, like difficult terrain due to tight spaces or exhaustion.

[kardar233]

Why would they engage in melee if they aren’t forced to? They can make better use of terrain and cover at range, and can spend their bonus Hiding rather than Disengaging. It’s not like they lose any damage output by doing so.

[Kane0]

Hugging AoE-happy PCs comes to mind, as does tripping up PCs, stealing equipment they drop or as a good ol' buffer for the archers/shamans.

[JoeJ]

Why would they engage in melee if they aren’t forced to? They can make better use of terrain and cover at range, and can spend their bonus Hiding rather than Disengaging. It’s not like they lose any damage output by doing so.

According the MM, goblins keep rats and wolves. So the goblins shoot until the PCs get too close for comfort, then send trained wolves or giant rats to engage the party while the goblins fall back to the next position.

[Doorhandle]

Rich well of ideas here so far!


According the MM, goblins keep rats and wolves. So the goblins shoot until the PCs get too close for comfort, then send trained wolves or giant rats to engage the party while the goblins fall back to the next position.

That's a great point actually. The goblins in my campaign setting are working for a dragon-spider (long story), so they could have freaky-ass spider minions to do the hard yards for them.


6) caltrops in the night are hilarious
That's just evil. I love it. Sadly, all the main PCs have darkvison so the only one I can hit with it is the sometime-present druid.

That said, this was both "specifically for the campaign" and "ideas in general" so i'll keep in mind for less night-oriented foes.


There are a lot of good ideas here. I just want to add a cautionary note: at this level, your party is still in the bracket where it could lose to a sizeable group of goblins without these tools and tactics. I would be very careful running this, especially if you are going to have them work to deny rests as was just suggested; without third level spells and extra attacks, they may not be capable of winning this.

Also, I’d do something nice for your melee fighters after this. They’re probably going to be feeling pretty useless.

Duly noted.

[Leith]

Use the kobolds from Volo's. Replace the pack tactics with nimble escape... Also 4e DMG can give you loads of ideas on making combat more tactical in general, assuming you use minis.

[Tanarii]

That's just evil. I love it. Sadly, all the main PCs have darkvison so the only one I can hit with it is the sometime-present druid. Darkvision in darkness means disadvantage on perception checks (or -5 to passive perception) to see hidden caltrops and traps. Because Dim Light.

[Throne12]

They can ride wolfs or worgs and look at the Mongolian Hunn's or the Japanese Samurai. And have mounted archers.

Have a group of goblins quickly ride around the party creating a huge ring made of smoke. Then the party hears some kind of noise be it a drum, horn, Whistle, to signal which group to charge through the smoke unleash a volley of arrows and disappear back into the smoke.



Now I'm picturing a goblin sitting on a coyote with a little wood whistle looking like a traffic policeman directing them lol

[Willie the Duck]

Caltrops/Ball bearings/bear traps/grease:
Can you say area control? Have them set up a line of these, and then the players need to charge through it to melee them! if the goblins outnumber the players enough, you don't even need to plan in advance: have them all set up these lines in the first round.


Terrain control also works. It worked better in 3e, where all the movement inhibiters stacked, but the concept still works. Have the only reasonable route to the goblins be up 45-degree slanted ramps, topped with low walls which give partial-to-full cover, have the terrain in front of the ramps be uneven, covered in foliage or rubble or other stuff which could (and sometimes does) hide traps of some kind. Have the ramp greased or something. If the PCs look like they are going to get to the top, have the goblins retreat into a retreat tunnel and hit a lever or button which drops a nice (possibly time wasting) diversion between them and the PCs.

But, and this will make the PCs feel that the system isn't completely one-sided rigged against them, occasionally have the best plans of mice and mengoblin completely wrong. Perhaps have the PCs accidently come up on the Goblins all focused on the door that the PCs didn't take. The PCs clear their throats behind the goblins, who look back with an "oh ****" expression and run for the hills. Etc.

[Xetheral]

If the goblins are defending a multi-level structure (like a tower) have a couple goblins engage in melee while the other goblins retreat up the stairs and hide. Last one up uses their item interaction and action to ignite a barrel of oil and shove it down the stairs. The PCs either take fire damage running up the flaming staircase (and then have to deal with hidden goblins) or else give the goblins another round in which to take the Ready action (almost doubling their damage output, at the cost of no longer being hidden when the second PC comes up the stairs). Repeat for every level of the structure.

This isn't a *winning* strategy for the goblins, but it prolongs the fight like crazy and does far more damage than the goblins could normally manage.

(Note, don't use this tactic in a wooden structure unless the PCs are obligated to try to save it intact. Otherwise the PCs will just walk away and let the goblins burn.)

[greenstone]

Remember that monsters can use the Help action. A swarm of goblins can make life difficult for PCs if half of them use Help and the other half attack with Advantage. Enough goblins and you will generally get a critical hit (which is an automatic hit!) every round.

Goblins also won't be alone. In my games, I partner them with wolves or jackals and let the Pack action apply to everyone. They also partner well with giant spiders and giant centipedes, especially if there is a goblin shaman to cast darkness.

Imagine a bunch of goblins using Help to get centipedes to poison adventurers, then carrying off the hapless party to some horrible fate.

Goblins are opportunistic. If they see a foe knocked prone by a wolf then they are going to swarm all over it.

Goblins are cunning. They will make frequent use of caltrops and oil flasks and poisons and other tools. Heck, just have a goblin empty a sack of goblin poo in a square and you guarantee no PC will enter that area. :-)

But most of all, as noted in posts above, goblins are all about the terrain. Things to hide behind, pillars and ropes to climb, holes to duck into, small passages where humans and elves have to squeeze. Shoot and run, stab and run.