Caster levels 21-30 and spell levels above 9th

[Greywander]

I've done a bit of work on some homebrew allowing players to raise their level to 30, and was thinking about spell slots and caster level. I have one chart for caster levels 21 to 30 that simply gives you more spell slots of 9th level and lower, and a second chart that instead gives you spell slots of up to 13th level. My question is, is this worth doing? Apparently, older editions did have "forbidden magic" that went as high as 13th level, but I don't think these exist in 5e. That said, you could always port these spells to 5e. You could also upcast lower level spells to make them more effective. And, failing all else, these would more or less act like extra 9th level slots.

So how would you go about addressing caster levels 21-30?
Would you just give the player more spell slots for levels they already had?
Would you give them access to "forbidden" magic via spell slots higher than 9th level?
Or would you just cap the caster level at 20, even if the player can raise their level to 30?

[Asmotherion]

3.5 used to have 10th level spells (which were epic spell).

Above that, were only "virtual" spell levels, mostly for metamagic purposes, but could get a lot of enhancment on reserve feats and make a spell a lot stronger. Still, a 10th level spell was a lot stronger than a 14th for example, because this was the spell level you were toying with epic spells.

Epic Spells basically allowed a Wish+. You would be able to not only replicate, but make a better spell than the original, mix and match effects, and all that by combining a target spell's Spellcraft (in 5e Arcana) DC. There were obviously some mitigating factors, like taking some backlash damage uppon casting the spell, or having an other caster cast with you.

It can be done, but in order for it to happen, I'd say some "ground" rules are needed:

A) Decide if it's a Virtual Spell Attack or Arcana Check Against a Virtual spell DC. One means Bards Get a gread Edge, the other that everyone is equal.
B) Decide your Toys: A good basis would be a cumulative DC of 10+spell level(+added level of enhancment) for every spell they want to combine. This way, mitigating factors kick in, as well as "higher class features" that synergise and allow specific spells to combine easier. Or keep it at 8+Spell Level, for a lower cost, but never lower than that.
C) Decide your Tax: For example, a good mitigating factor for the DC can be actually using spell slots, reducing the DC by an equal amount. Since they don't want to Fail this, the idea is to bring the DC to a level were they can "take 10" or a full round action to cast it (unless there is a spell in the casting with a longer casting time, not optimal for combat really).
D) Use their own spells known/prepared instead of spell seeds. If a spell can be enhanced beyond it's level, use that formula. If not, go for a "every 4 levels gives +1 to one of the variables".

Just some food for thought on how I'd go about this. Hope this was helpful.

[CTurbo]

The most glaring problem with leveling up past 20 is finding a suitable challenge for such characters. Making stronger spells is only going to make matters worse. So for that reason alone, I wouldn't continue on with more slots or stronger slots.

[Unoriginal]

5e has now shown several casters stronger than lvl 20, none of then has anything more than a lvl 20, spellcasting-wise. Spellcasting features cap at lvl 20, just like everyone else stop getting specific class features.

[Asmotherion]

The most glaring problem with leveling up past 20 is finding a suitable challenge for such characters. Making stronger spells is only going to make matters worse. So for that reason alone, I wouldn't continue on with more slots or stronger slots.
Apparently, Mordenkainen is comming, full of exciting new CR 21+ foes to fight XD

Other than that, we're smart people, we always homebrew stuff that are stronger and stronger either way. My "average"* Shadow Dragon would put the Adventurer's League Tiamat to shame...

*Ofcoure, that's because I don't believe in such a concept as an Average Dragon.

[CTurbo]

Apparently, Mordenkainen is comming, full of exciting new CR 21+ foes to fight XD

Other than that, we're smart people, we always homebrew stuff that are stronger and stronger either way. My "average"* Shadow Dragon would put the Adventurer's League Tiamat to shame...

*Ofcoure, that's because I don't believe in such a concept as an Average Dragon.



True and you can always fight three Tarrasques at once as well.

[Asmotherion]

True and you can always fight three Tarrasques at once as well.

Technically you *can* but I'm not sure how this would go, unless you're at that level 30 XD

On the other hand, you never mentioned they would all be on the same team, so I'd put my money on a greater teleport and fight the surviving Tarrasque after scrying on it (who, I'd hope, would still be severally wounded, and would focus on fighting the other two rather than cause mass destruction XD )

[Greywander]

In this particular case, characters of 21st to 30th level are considered demigods, and have to obtain a divine spark before they can ascend to 21st level. So yeah, it puts them at a power level that 5e isn't prepared for the players to be at yet. But I figured that with the other breaks in bounded accuracy that levels 21-30 would bring (namely, ability score maximums of 30 (which is already RAW, see "Alternatives to Epic Boons" on DMG page 230) and proficiency up to +9), I might as well make it official that the players have gone beyond the limits of mere mortals and started on the path to divinity.

In the same document, I also have the option to take class levels as epic boons, but you explicitly remain a 20th level character, and only gain very minimal HP from each additional class level. Practically speaking, you're really only getting the class features, and missing out on pretty much all other benefits of leveling up (notably HP and proficiency bonus). As such, although you gain more abilities, bounded accuracy is preserved and you remain mortal (but see DMG page 230, which implies that ASIs can now raise ability scores up to 30).

[Citan]

Hi!
Honestly, I'd just go with extra level slots.
The highest spells are usually not upcastable anyways so the "worst" you could expect are several Wish or Meteor Swarm in a row... And I don't see many situations in which this would be necessary.

If you're afraid of that kind of überpower though, then alternatives could be...
- Either copying some class feature (like giving Metamagic apprenticeship to everyone, 1 metamagic every 3 levels, or give 1st and 2nd level signature spells).
- Or just add more spell slots by "pasting" the 1-10 level progression (so at level 21 you gain 2 more 1st level slots so you have 6*1st level slots etc).

I'd probably go with the latter: seems not much at first, but it's still solid for most casters (more Healing Words / Guiding Bolts for Clerics, Dissonant Whispers for Bard, Shield for Sorcerer/Wizard).

But before even that, I'd question the need for added spellcasting fuel: just allowing level past 20 gives a player the rare opportunity of playing "true multiclass" (not just small dip) casters that still own 9th level spells, and that is in my view plenty enough of a benefit. YMMV.

[DragonLord7]

I am not sure when it was made, but a little while ago someone made an article about epic classes. He provided class features and racial features, including spell casting tables, for all classes. He went along the lines of higher level spell slots to increase the power of lower level spells, however, he did not provide higher level spells.

[JackPhoenix]

Technically you *can* but I'm not sure how this would go, unless you're at that level 30 XD

About the same as fighting a single tarrasque, only more boring, because it would involve thrice the amount of dicerolling. Three tarrasques are still just dumb monsters that don't have any decent ranged attack and can't fly.