DM says druid doesn't full heal with wildshape. Alternatives?

[FrozenGnomes]

The druid I play is just a plain old battlefield control/summoner druid who will primarily use its wildshapes for AC boosts and healing, but since the DM has ruled I don't heal at all, it kind of removes a part of what seems to be their core identity.

Could you guys help me come up with an alternate feature to replace the full heal, or share your solutions to what my DM feels is far too strong?

EDIT: I am really quite new to 3.5/3e, so it seems I have wildly misread it due to me being mainly a 5e player. A night of healing is healing to full in 5e, E.G a long rest.

[Ashtagon]

Checking RAW, the PRD makes no mention of wildshape offering healing, while the SRD says you gain hit points as if you had rested for one night (ie 1 hp per level). That level of healing is somewhat underwhelming, unless you've found some way of multiplying nightly healing. Either way, that's a lot less than the "full heal" you appear to have thought it represented.

I can't find any PF archetypes or 3.x variant class features that might help, but I only did a very cursory search.

A vanilla druid normally does healing by memorising cure (or vigour) spells.

[FrozenGnomes]

Checking RAW, the PRD makes no mention of wildshape offering healing, while the SRD says you gain hit points as if you had rested for one night (ie 1 hp per level). That level of healing is somewhat underwhelming, unless you've found some way of multiplying nightly healing. Either way, that's a lot less than the "full heal" you appear to have thought it represented.

I can't find any PF archetypes or 3.x variant class features that might help, but I only did a very cursory search.

A vanilla druid normally does healing by memorising cure (or vigour) spells.

Oh, I have just wildly misread the thing. So a 9th level druid would heal for 9hp in when wildshaping?

[Ashtagon]

Oh, I have just wildly misread the thing. So a 9th level druid would heal for 9hp in when wildshaping?

In D&D 3.5, he would indeed heal 9 hp. In PF, he would not heal at all from wildshape usage.

[Uncle Pine]

Your DM may have put this specific houserule in play to reduce possible divine minions (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) shenanigans without outright removing the template from his campaign. After all, it's a pretty nifty template if you ignore the fact it provides instantaneous full heal every round.

If you're worried about losing the minimal amount of healing wild shape provides, I suggest you buy a wand of lesser vigor (SC). For 750 gp you get to heal 11 hit points/charge, for a total of 550 hp/wand.

[heavyfuel]

In 3.5/Pathfinder damage is a much bigger pain to heal than in 5e. In 5e a lot of classes have built-in healing mechanincs, plus the idea of using a short rest to spend hit dice is very neat.

When playing 3.5/PF you'll notice that magic and similar abilities are pretty much the only way to reliably heal.

If it's 3.5 and not PF, I second getting a Wand of Lesser Vigor. I'd say they're even a little overpowered. If your DM has a problem with Lesser Vigor, or you're playing PF, getting a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is also useful

[Deadline]

Look into the Minor Shapeshift Reserve feat, as it provides some temp HP when changing forms that may be useful. It still won't be a ton, but if you are after any healing effects you can get, it's pretty low hanging fruit.

[Venger]

The druid I play is just a plain old battlefield control/summoner druid who will primarily use its wildshapes for AC boosts and healing, but since the DM has ruled I don't heal at all, it kind of removes a part of what seems to be their core identity.

Could you guys help me come up with an alternate feature to replace the full heal, or share your solutions to what my DM feels is far too strong?

EDIT: I am really quite new to 3.5/3e, so it seems I have wildly misread it due to me being mainly a 5e player. A night of healing is healing to full in 5e, E.G a long rest.

Druid never full heals with wild shape. You regain your character level in hp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) when you wild shape.

[heavyfuel]

Look into the Minor Shapeshift Reserve feat, as it provides some temp HP when changing forms that may be useful. It still won't be a ton, but if you are after any healing effects you can get, it's pretty low hanging fruit.

Druids don't have access to spells in the Polymorph subschool to use Minor Shapeshift.

They have Aquatic Escape but you'd need to heighten it. Two feats and a high-ish level spell slot is too much for some Temp HP

[Venger]

Druids don't have access to spells in the Polymorph subschool to use Minor Shapeshift.

They have Aquatic Escape but you'd need to heighten it. Two feats and a high-ish level spell slot is too much for some Temp HP

Winged watcher is also in the polymorph subschool, but you'll experience the same issue.

[Menzath]

I second deadline's opinion of getting minor shapeshift.

And thankfully the tempHP you gain isn't based off the highest lvl poly spell you can cast, it is based of your HD. And has a neglible action cost. Although the duration of said temp hp is equal to the spell lvl in rounds, your going to refresh it every other to every round anyways.

[Venger]

I second deadline's opinion of getting minor shapeshift.

And thankfully the tempHP you gain isn't based off the highest lvl poly spell you can cast, it is based of your HD. And has a neglible action cost. Although the duration of said temp hp is equal to the spell lvl in rounds, your going to refresh it every other to every round anyways.

As heavyfuel has explained, a druid cannot benefit from minor shapeshift without using heighten spell on either aquatic escape or winged watcher, both of which are horrible spells, and is not a good use of resources.

[Nifft]

Druids don't have access to spells in the Polymorph subschool to use Minor Shapeshift.


Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) doesn't qualify as "a polymorph spell"?

Why not?

[Boci]

Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) doesn't qualify as "a polymorph spell"?

Why not?

PH II said previous spells only become part of the polymorph subschool retroactivly is the creature kept their own alighment, hit points, hitdie, and can understand the same languages it could in its own form. Baleful changes their hitdie to 1.

[ShurikVch]

After all, it's a pretty nifty template if you ignore the fact it provides instantaneous full heal every round.If you mean "instantaneous full heal" by sufficient number of Wild Shape usage, I suspecting it doesn't works like that: RAW says "as an 11th-level druid" thus - 4/day (without the Extra Wild Shape feat); the "at will" part is just means you're needn't to wait for, say, "1d4 rounds" after the Fast Wild Shape use

[Nifft]

PH II said previous spells only become part of the polymorph subschool retroactivly is the creature kept their own alighment, hit points, hitdie, and can understand the same languages it could in its own form. Baleful changes their hitdie to 1.

Was there errata that changed Minor Shapeshift from saying "a polymorph spell" (which it says in my book) into saying "a spell of the polymorph subschool"?

[Boci]

Was there errata that changed Minor Shapeshift from saying "a polymorph spell" (which it says in my book) into saying "a spell of the polymorph subschool"?

The last paragraph of the feat says "As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting polymorph spells. See page 91 for details on the new polymorph subschool of spells." which strongly implies those two things are the same.

[heavyfuel]

Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) doesn't qualify as "a polymorph spell"?

Why not?

I admit that I only checked for the subschool and skipped over Baleful Polymorph. That would make you the best type of correct. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo)

I agree with Boci that the intent there is pretty clear though.

[Nifft]

The last paragraph of the feat says "As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting polymorph spells. See page 91 for details on the new polymorph subschool of spells." which strongly implies those two things are the same.

I think it's accurate to say that (Polymorph) subschool spells are also "polymorph spells".

I think it's absurd to make the assertion that only (Polymorph) subschool spells qualify as "polymorph spells".


But anyway, Druids also have Sandform, Animal Shapes, Feathers, Plant Body, and of course Shapechange. Many of those ought to qualify for the subschool, if for some reason your DM buys into the bad interpretation.

[Troacctid]

PH II said previous spells only become part of the polymorph subschool retroactivly is the creature kept their own alighment, hit points, hitdie, and can understand the same languages it could in its own form. Baleful changes their hitdie to 1.
"For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool)."

[Nifft]

PH II said previous spells only become part of the polymorph subschool retroactivly is the creature kept their own alighment, hit points, hitdie, and can understand the same languages it could in its own form. Baleful changes their hitdie to 1.

Just correcting some misinformation here:



The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores).
The target retains its own hit points.
The target is treated as having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw).


The target does retain its previous HD for many purposes, but for many statistics it's treated as if it had one HD. It doesn't lose its previous HD, it just loses access to derived stats like attack bonus.

[Boci]

I think it's absurd to make the assertion that only (Polymorph) subschool spells qualify as "polymorph spells".

Why? That's how subschools work.

"I think its absurd to say that only (fire) spells qualify as "fire spells".

Maybe they msessed up and should have included baleful polymorph, but I fail to see anything absurd about the notion polymorph spells andf spells of the polymorph subschool are the same thing.


Just correcting some misinformation here:

Right you are. Baleful polymotph therefor qualifies as a spell of the polymorph subschool.

[Nifft]

Why? That's how subschools work.

"I think its absurd to say that only (fire) spells qualify as "fire spells".

Not everybody uses the (Polymorph) subschool.

It's notably unpopular around here -- presumably because it attempts to rein in the power of self-transmuters, but I suspect also because it's more work to expand beyond the example spells, and the example spells don't provide sufficient coverage.

Everybody does use the [Fire] descriptor (not subschool, there is no "fire subschool"), because the [Fire] descriptor was there from the start, and because there's no alternative version of the rules which make you so much more powerful if you just totally ignore the [Fire] descriptor. So yeah, not really a compelling comparison.



Right you are. Baleful polymotph therefor qualifies as a spell of the polymorph subschool. Maybe the underlying problem is that people were searching databases that didn't apply the subschool updates correctly, or at all.

[Goaty14]

Healthful Rest (SpC, CAdv) is a 1st level spells that doubles how much you heal from a rest, which translates 9 hp each wildshape to 18 hp each wildshape, for 24 hours.

[Troacctid]

Maybe they msessed up and should have included baleful polymorph
They did include it.


but I fail to see anything absurd about the notion polymorph spells andf spells of the polymorph subschool are the same thing.
Any spell based on Polymorph is explicitly part of the subschool so, I mean...💁

[Boci]

They did include it.


Any spell based on Polymorph is explicitly part of the subschool so, I mean...💁

YOu must have missed my edit, so, I mean...


Not everybody uses the (Polymorph) subschool.

How subschools work as written is unchanged, regardless of how popular, unpopular or non-core a given subschool might be.

[Uncle Pine]

If you mean "instantaneous full heal" by sufficient number of Wild Shape usage, I suspecting it doesn't works like that: RAW says "as an 11th-level druid" thus - 4/day (without the Extra Wild Shape feat); the "at will" part is just means you're needn't to wait for, say, "1d4 rounds" after the Fast Wild Shape use

That seems a shaky position to support. What makes you believe that by RAW "as an 11th-level druid" doesn't literally mean "in case this is ever relevant, treat this ability as used by an 11th-level druid regardless of the level of the divine minion or its classes" for the purpose of, for example, qualifying for a feat or PrC or to use a specific item and instead decide it means you get to select one and only one aspect of fast wild shape and decide it works like normal wild shape when:

At-will is a very specific term used to identify an action or ability that can be undertaken or activated any number of times every day without limit;
Fast wild shape already explicitly differs from the wild shape of an 11th-level druid because it has a different kind of form options, both in species, size and type (divine minions of Seth can turn into vermins);
Fast wild shape already explicitly differs from the wild shape of an 11th-level druid because it only takes a free action instead of a standard action;
Fast wild shape already explicitly differs from the wild shape of an 11th-level druid because it lasts indefinitely instead of 1 hour/level;
Fast wild shape already explicitly differs from the wild shape of an 11th-level druid because it isn't restricted by a druid's code of conduct.

It strikes me as really odd that one would rule "at-will" means "as many time a day as an 11th-level druid" while also deciding that "into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves" doesn't mean "any Tiny, Small, Medium or Large animal" and that "a free action" doesn't mean "a standard action" and that "indefinitely" doesn't mean "1 hour per druid level" and that " Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor" doesn't mean "minions are prohibited from wearing metal armor".

[Troacctid]

YOu must have missed my edit, so, I mean...
Keeping the same hit dice makes no difference as to whether a spell is of the Polymorph subschool. If it's based on Alter Self or Polymorph, it's a Polymorph spell.

[Nifft]

How subschools work as written is unchanged, regardless of how popular, unpopular or non-core a given subschool might be.

There is literally no such thing as the Polymorph subschool if the DM didn't choose to include that optional variant rule in her game.

[Boci]

Keeping the same hit dice makes no difference as to whether a spell is of the Polymorph subschool. If it's based on Alter Self or Polymorph, it's a Polymorph spell.

This is pointless, since I already agreed baleful polymorph is a polymorph subschool, but baleful polymorph isn't neccissary based on polymorph. They have the same name, but the spell description it, unlike draconic polymorph.


There is literally no such thing as the Polymorph subschool if the DM didn't choose to include that optional variant rule in her game.

There is litterally no such thing as (insert any game mechanic) if the DM decides not to include it. How popular a mechanic is is relevant for how the game is expirienced, but its not relevant for how subschools work as written.

[Nifft]

Feathers (MotW, un-updated) looks like the most minutia-friendly level 4 qualification for Minor Shapeshift.

I'd argue that Sandform (Sandstorm) should also qualify, and it's also level 4.

[eggynack]

To the initial question, this really isn't a thing that you need a "replacement" for. Druids are incredibly strong without full healing on wild shape, or, indeed, any healing at all. The core competency of a druid is decidedly their spells, and while you can bypass this loss of healing prowess with wands of lesser vigor or unicorn summoning, it's not like most other classes were tossing full heals on themselves in the first place anyway. If you were only using wild shape for AC and HP, then a suitable replacement buff could be to simply use wild shape for more things, like movement modes, high initiative, combat capacity on occasion, vision modes if you use enhance wild shape, and any number of other crazy things. I have a handbook in my sig if you want some of that. Suffice to say that self healing off of wild shape is decidedly not a druid defining characteristic, at least not in this game.