Telepathic Bond and Mind Blank

[TallerSpine]

Suppose a wizard casts telepathic bond to remain in communication with allies without the need to speak out loud. Then he casts mind blank on himself. What happens with the telepathic bond? Does it function as normal because the spell is not reading his thoughts, but instead allowing him to push his thoughts to another? Or would the wizard be able to receive messages through the bond, but not be able to send messages because the telepathic bond, while still active, cannot read his thoughts over to his allies?

[heavyfuel]

Is this 3.5 or Pathfinder? Since the Mindblank spell is drastically different between systems this needs to be specified before any answer.

This problem is also solvable by posting in the appropriate RAW Q&A Thread.

[TallerSpine]

Is this 3.5 or Pathfinder? Since the Mindblank spell is drastically different between systems this needs to be specified before any answer.

This problem is also solvable by posting in the appropriate RAW Q&A Thread.

Sorry about that. This is 3.5

[heavyfuel]

No worries. Now let's get to it.

The text for Mindblank reads:


This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

Telepathic Bond is a divination spell and so you are protected from it, even if you don't want to be. The spell is still in effect, just not for you. The other targets can still communicate as normal

This is a known problem with Mindblank in that often the spells/effects it protects you from are beneficial. See any positive mind-affecting effect such as the Bard's Inspire Courage.

[TallerSpine]

No worries. Now let's get to it.

The text for Mindblank reads:



Telepathic Bond is a divination spell and so you are protected from it, even if you don't want to be. The spell is still in effect, just not for you. The other targets can still communicate as normal

This is a known problem with Mindblank in that often the spells/effects it protects you from are beneficial. See any positive mind-affecting effect such as the Bard's Inspire Courage.

That's what I thought. Thank you.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It could be argued that telepathic bond does not "detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts", nor constitutes "information gathering", being merely a means through which one deliberately engages in communication. That's basically an appeal to personal interpretation of mind blank. When I think of "information gathering", for example, I picture a unilateral process that does not involve the target's permission or even knowledge, which is unlike telepathic bond. A similar argument applies to the detect/influence/read clause: telepathic bond does not detect thoughts, it merely transmits those you choose to share; it does not influence nor read thoughts, except instrumentally, enabling the shared thoughts to influence the receiver.

Of course, at the other end, you could argue that any language act influences emotions and thoughts, therefore mind blank makes you immune to language. But that just seems like it'd cause a lot of trouble.

[Deophaun]

Of course, at the other end, you could argue that any language act influences emotions and thoughts, therefore mind blank makes you immune to language. But that just seems like it'd cause a lot of trouble.
Heck, getting stabbed by a pointy stick, zapped by a ray of electricity, or sent to another plane of existence influences emotions and thoughts. Immunity to everything!

And wait, if you are immune to everything, that will affect how you think and feel as well. Mind blank makes you immune to itself, solving the problem.

[TallerSpine]

It could be argued that telepathic bond does not "detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts", nor constitutes "information gathering", being merely a means through which one deliberately engages in communication. That's basically an appeal to personal interpretation of mind blank. When I think of "information gathering", for example, I picture a unilateral process that does not involve the target's permission or even knowledge, which is unlike telepathic bond. A similar argument applies to the detect/influence/read clause: telepathic bond does not detect thoughts, it merely transmits those you choose to share; it does not influence nor read thoughts, except instrumentally, enabling the shared thoughts to influence the receiver.

Of course, at the other end, you could argue that any language act influences emotions and thoughts, therefore mind blank makes you immune to language. But that just seems like it'd cause a lot of trouble.

Thank you for the info. Mind-affects are actually a special type of effect that are labeled as such. Divination spells are similarly labeled as divination spells. The only confusing part of the mind blank spell is what you and I both mention: what constitutes an "information gathering" divination. Language is not labeled mind-affecting nor divination, so I'm not sure how it factors into the conversation.


Heck, getting stabbed by a pointy stick, zapped by a ray of electricity, or sent to another plane of existence influences emotions and thoughts. Immunity to everything!

And wait, if you are immune to everything, that will affect how you think and feel as well. Mind blank makes you immune to itself, solving the problem.

Lol.


I think I'm gonna stick with the standard ruling that mind blank blocks telepathic bond.

[Hiro Quester]

I thought there was a rule clarification someplace that you could choose to allow certain mind-affecting benefits to work still. (Something about the "protects against" part; you don't need protection against benefits, os something?)

The example I recall was having mindblank but still getting the benefit of a bard's Inspire Courage?

[InterstellarPro]

I thought there was a rule clarification someplace that you could choose to allow certain mind-affecting benefits to work still. (Something about the "protects against" part; you don't need protection against benefits, os something?)

The example I recall was having mindblank but still getting the benefit of a bard's Inspire Courage?

I would think that Mind Blank is similar to a limited form of Spell Resistance that simply cannot be overcome. Perhaps the target could lower the Mind Blank to allow beneficial spells and effects to affect her, but that would leave her vulnerable to hostile spells, as well. I do not know what rule clarification you are thinking about, but is it perhaps something like that?

[Elkad]

My house interpretation is an inviolable mental shield. As far as ANY outside influence is concerned, you aren't there. It blocks telepathy, mindsight, divinations that look for you, etc.

Beneficial or Hostile makes no difference. It doesn't work. I did make an exception for creatures you have spell sharing with (familiar, etc), but I could reasonably see blocking even that.

On the other hand, it doesn't block divinations that don't affect your mind. So See Invisibility will see you. Or I could use Locate Object to find your sword. If you want to beat that, use NonDetection as well.

Again, this is my interpretation.

[gogogome]

Elves who are immune to sleep can voluntarily fall asleep via the sleep spell.
You can voluntarily fail any save so that Shadow Evocation mimicking Contingency works on you.

It is unquestionable undeniable RAI of the game to give you full control over your spell effects and immunities to allow you to let beneficial and harmful effects of those spells/abilities affect you as much as you want..

The only time I'd rule that mind blank blocks any beneficial spell is if an enemy cast it on you.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Language is not labeled mind-affecting nor divination, so I'm not sure how it factors into the conversation.
The reason I bring it up is that mind blank does not protect against [mind-affecting] spells only. The protection is much wider than that, as per the first sentence of the spell description: "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts". Non-magical, non-[mind-affecting] and non-divination devices and spells are covered--depending, of course, on whether you read the second sentence as expanding the rule or concretising fluff. (N.B. By RAW the fluff/crunch distinction is shaky to begin with.)

In order to find out what it means to be such a device or spell, people often try to make sense of what mind blank actually does in-universe. Most arguments for/against mind blank blocking telepathic bond are fluff-based (this one of mine included); many people think of an impenetrable "mental firewall". I don't like that image. If you follow that line of reasoning, you soon find that all things that might influence "the mind", including such things as language, and as Deophaun mentions, anything else in the universe might be blocked by mind blank. Now, given that mind blank is probably not solipsism in spell form, it follows that the impenetrable firewall-metaphor must be expanded to include a couple of access gateways*, which then have to be closely monitored to prevent unlawful access (via suggestion etcetera). Once you have a few access gateways, it's no real problem--fluff-wise--to include one for telepathic bond.

Then there is the RAW reason to allow telepathic bond to work alongside mind blank: telepathic bond does not "detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts" any more than a garden hose detects/influences/reads the water running through it (which is to say, it sort of does, but in a really ****ty way, to the point that you can't realistically call it a sensor without calling everything a sensor for everything).

Anyway, there's arguments for and against, and I don't mean to force any interpretation on anyone, but I think there's good cause to allow these spells to work together; if your game wasn't getting crushed by the awesome power of telepathic bond + mind blank, it's better to allow than to restrict.



*Also note that mind blank, in some cases, does more than simple firewall: it also hides your presence from scrying effects that aren't even targeted at you.

[InterstellarPro]

The reason I bring it up is that mind blank does not protect against [mind-affecting] spells only. The protection is much wider than that, as per the first sentence of the spell description: "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts". Non-magical, non-[mind-affecting] and non-divination devices and spells are covered--depending, of course, on whether you read the second sentence as expanding the rule or concretising fluff. (N.B. By RAW the fluff/crunch distinction is shaky to begin with.)

In order to find out what it means to be such a device or spell, people often try to make sense of what mind blank actually does in-universe. Most arguments for/against mind blank blocking telepathic bond are fluff-based (this one of mine included); many people think of an impenetrable "mental firewall". I don't like that image. If you follow that line of reasoning, you soon find that all things that might influence "the mind", including such things as language, and as Deophaun mentions, anything else in the universe might be blocked by mind blank. Now, given that mind blank is probably not solipsism in spell form, it follows that the impenetrable firewall-metaphor must be expanded to include a couple of access gateways*, which then have to be closely monitored to prevent unlawful access (via suggestion etcetera). Once you have a few access gateways, it's no real problem--fluff-wise--to include one for telepathic bond.

Then there is the RAW reason to allow telepathic bond to work alongside mind blank: telepathic bond does not "detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts" any more than a garden hose detects/influences/reads the water running through it (which is to say, it sort of does, but in a really ****ty way, to the point that you can't realistically call it a sensor without calling everything a sensor for everything).

Anyway, there's arguments for and against, and I don't mean to force any interpretation on anyone, but I think there's good cause to allow these spells to work together; if your game wasn't getting crushed by the awesome power of telepathic bond + mind blank, it's better to allow than to restrict.



*Also note that mind blank, in some cases, does more than simple firewall: it also hides your presence from scrying effects that aren't even targeted at you.


Honestly, magic having unintended consequences does not seem like a bad thing to me. Having a powerful spell cause the unintended consequence of blocking some beneficial spells seems like a minor inconvenience. Once it is in the game, it really does not cause too many headaches for players. They just have a deeper understanding that magic can, at times, be a double edged sword. In my opinion, there are not enough spells that have potentially negative consequences for their use. I think there should be more. Spellcasting is already extremely powerful. Having minor inconveniences crop up as a result of spellcasting gives players a reason to think twice before casting their most powerful spells. Maybe the spellcaster opts for a less powerful spell, and the melee character gets a chance to actually act and contribute to the battle. But, when things are dire and there is just no other choice, the spellcaster drops a powerful spell, accepting the consequences and saving the day.

But, obviously, you are correct, and that is not necessarily the intent for DnD. It is just how I like to DM my games.

[Hiro Quester]

If it was a beneficial temporary spell, I'd agree. While its in effect, you get some benefits, but they might also come at a cost.

But mind blank is 24 h duration. When you learn it, you are probably casting it every day, as part of your routine magical protections.

That makes it a major headache, blocking all spells or SU abilities that grant morale bonuses from having any effect on you.

In our group we have always assumed that you can let particular spells our effects through your mind blank. I'd call it a house rule, but I 'm not sure anyone ever explicitly worried about mind blank in this way. Our party wizard was rocking a mind-blank 24/7, while also setting up a telepathic bond between party members.

It seems reasonable to at least allow that mind blank prevents hostile mind-affecting spells from getting in, but at least enables you to broadcast out to your allies using telepathic bond.

And there's a decent case to be made that the bond part of a telepathic bond could establish friendly signals that can have special permission/access to tunnel through your magic mental firewall. Especially if they were in effect before the mind blank went into effect.

[Crake]

No worries. Now let's get to it.

The text for Mindblank reads:



Telepathic Bond is a divination spell and so you are protected from it, even if you don't want to be. The spell is still in effect, just not for you. The other targets can still communicate as normal

This is a known problem with Mindblank in that often the spells/effects it protects you from are beneficial. See any positive mind-affecting effect such as the Bard's Inspire Courage.

I think you should read the section you pasted again:


This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

You aren't immune to divination spells, you're immune to having information gathered about you by divination spells. If you were immune to divinations, then you would also be unable to use personal divinations that give you information, such as true seeing, or contact other plane.

Telepathic bond does not gather any information about you, so mind blank does not block the spell at all.


In our group we have always assumed that you can let particular spells our effects through your mind blank. I'd call it a house rule, but I 'm not sure anyone ever explicitly worried about mind blank in this way. Our party wizard was rocking a mind-blank 24/7, while also setting up a telepathic bond between party members.

This is not even a houserule, you can willingly lower special immunities to recieve a spell, as noted with the elf who lowers her sleep immunity to be affected by the sleep spell.

[Hiro Quester]

You aren't immune to divination spells, you're immune to having information gathered about you by divination spells. If you were immune to divinations, then you would also be unable to use personal divinations that give you information, such as true seeing, or contact other plane.

Telepathic bond does not gather any information about you, so mind blank does not block the spell at all.


Good point. Telepathic bond is not telepathy, where all your thoughts are broadcast; it's a communication system, where you choose to communicate particular pieces of information to others, you just don't have to speak aloud to do so.

It works by your choosing to give particular information to others, and them choosing to give information to you. Neither of those should be blocked by a spell that blocks information gathering.

[heavyfuel]

You aren't immune to divination spells, you're immune to having information gathered about you by divination spells. If you were immune to divinations, then you would also be unable to use personal divinations that give you information, such as true seeing, or contact other plane.

Telepathic bond does not gather any information about you, so mind blank does not block the spell at all.

As someone else mentioned, "information gathering" isn't defined by the rules, but I'm pretty sure "telling your allies information about you through the link established by the spell" counts as them gathering information about you through a divination. It's therefore blocked.



This is not even a houserule, you can willingly lower special immunities to recieve a spell, as noted with the elf who lowers her sleep immunity to be affected by the sleep spell.

You can indeed lower an immunity to accept a spell (class features and other abilities not included by RAW), assuming it has a Saving Throw, which Telapathic Bond does not.

You also lower the immunity, so while you could lower Mind Blank to accept a Heroism spell, you'd be vulnerable to all other mind-affecting spells while your Mind Blank is lowered. Raising the resistance back would also stop the Heroism spell as you go back to being immune to it.

[Crake]

As someone else mentioned, "information gathering" isn't defined by the rules, but I'm pretty sure "telling your allies information about you through the link established by the spell" counts as them gathering information about you through a divination. It's therefore blocked.

When something isn't defined by the rules, we default to english definitions. The spell itself is not gathering any information about you, saying that it enabling you to communicate, which might be used to gain information about you, but at the same time might not be, because the link doesn't need to be used to communicate about yourself, you might be telling your allies information about someone else, is taking it one degree of separation too far (that is, any degree of separation). By that same logic, anyone who ever cast mind blank ever would completely stop all telepathic bonds from functioning, because they MIGHT be used to communicate information about the target of the mind blank spell.

[TallerSpine]

When something isn't defined by the rules, we default to english definitions. The spell itself is not gathering any information about you, saying that it enabling you to communicate, which might be used to gain information about you, but at the same time might not be, because the link doesn't need to be used to communicate about yourself, you might be telling your allies information about someone else, is taking it one degree of separation too far (that is, any degree of separation). By that same logic, anyone who ever cast mind blank ever would completely stop all telepathic bonds from functioning, because they MIGHT be used to communicate information about the target of the mind blank spell.

No one is saying that mind blank completely stops all telepathic bonds. That is an argument no one has made. The telepathic bond would not be blocked. It can be cast upon you while you have mind blank. You hear the thoughts of others, but they cannot hear your thoughts. The thoughts are there, but the mind blank prevents the spell from gathering the information of those thoughts and transmitting it to another. That is zero degrees of separation. Even though you are literally trying to push the information through, the spell says you are immune. This is heavyfuel's argument as I understand it.

Then, there is the argument made above about elves and sleep. This is a powerful argument. But, I have not seen the ruling that it is true. Personally, I'm my games, I would believe it to be false. Elves are not physically capable of sleep. Let's look to other forms of immunity, such as immunity to fire. Can you voluntarily allow yourself to be burned? Decide that this time, the fire will be hot? That's not how your anatomy works. Just like an elf os incapable of sleep and the recipient of a mind blank is incapable of sharing information through a mind blank.

Even if someone points me to the official ruling about elves and sleep, I am still not sure I would buy that argument extends to mind blank. That feels more like an exception to the rule. Can someone immune to poison get drunk? Can someone immune to disease voluntarily get sick? Even if it is true for elven sleep, that would be an exception to the rule, not the rule itself.

[Crake]

No one is saying that mind blank completely stops all telepathic bonds. That is an argument no one has made. The telepathic bond would not be blocked. It can be cast upon you while you have mind blank. You hear the thoughts of others, but they cannot hear your thoughts. The thoughts are there, but the mind blank prevents the spell from gathering the information of those thoughts and transmitting it to another. That is zero degrees of separation. Even though you are literally trying to push the information through, the spell says you are immune. This is heavyfuel's argument as I understand it.

That does not come under the definition of information gathering. The spell is not gathering that information, it is transmitting that information. By that same logic, someone with mind blank could not benefit from the tongues spell either?

[CozJa]

Well, at least the writers of Races of Eberron concur with the "Mind Blank stops telepathy" school of thought.

From the Atavist prestige class, RoE pag.133


At 9th level, you gain the ability to temporarily protect your mind against magical or psionic influence, but at the cost of shutting yourself off from telepathic contact with others. Once per day, you can manifest personal mind blank, as the psionic power except that its duration is 1 hour and you can dismiss it as a standard action.

If your campaign doesn't make use of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, treat this as a mind blank spell-like ability (see page 253 of the Player's Handbook) that you can cast only on yourself.

Since mindlink is a mind-affecting power, you can't use that ability while this one is active.

[sorcererlover]

Well, at least the writers of Races of Eberron concur with the "Mind Blank stops telepathy" school of thought.

From the Atavist prestige class, RoE pag.133


At 9th level, you gain the ability to temporarily protect your mind against magical or psionic influence, but at the cost of shutting yourself off from telepathic contact with others. Once per day, you can manifest personal mind blank, as the psionic power except that its duration is 1 hour and you can dismiss it as a standard action.

If your campaign doesn't make use of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, treat this as a mind blank spell-like ability (see page 253 of the Player's Handbook) that you can cast only on yourself.

Since mindlink is a mind-affecting power, you can't use that ability while this one is active.


I think that pretty much settles this debate.

[Jack_Simth]

I thought there was a rule clarification someplace that you could choose to allow certain mind-affecting benefits to work still. (Something about the "protects against" part; you don't need protection against benefits, os something?)

The example I recall was having mindblank but still getting the benefit of a bard's Inspire Courage?

It's in the magic overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow), under saving throws:
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. The PHB includes the example of an elf accepting a sleep spell despite the elven immunity to magical sleep effects (that was removed from the SRD, however, so I'm not quoting it here).

There's also a clause under SR, but that takes a standard action to lower and is for everything.


Then, there is the argument made above about elves and sleep. This is a powerful argument. But, I have not seen the ruling that it is true. Personally, I'm my games, I would believe it to be false. Elves are not physically capable of sleep.Are you willing to be disproven on this point? Open the Player's Handbook, turn to page 177, look through the left column for the section titled "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw", and read that; it includes the specific example of an elf accepting a sleep spell.

[Crake]

Well, at least the writers of Races of Eberron concur with the "Mind Blank stops telepathy" school of thought.

From the Atavist prestige class, RoE pag.133


At 9th level, you gain the ability to temporarily protect your mind against magical or psionic influence, but at the cost of shutting yourself off from telepathic contact with others. Once per day, you can manifest personal mind blank, as the psionic power except that its duration is 1 hour and you can dismiss it as a standard action.

If your campaign doesn't make use of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, treat this as a mind blank spell-like ability (see page 253 of the Player's Handbook) that you can cast only on yourself.

Since mindlink is a mind-affecting power, you can't use that ability while this one is active.



I think that pretty much settles this debate.

Telepathy in the context of psionics is analogous to the enchantment school, and I believe they are all [Mind-Affecting], just like enchantment. The mind link ability mentioned is a psionic power of the telepathy discipline, it makes no mention of mind blank stopping telepathic communication in general, and nowhere does telepathic communication get classed as [Mind-Affecting] at all. Telepathic bond on the other hand is divination, which mind blank only protects you against if it "gathers information" about you, and definitely not classed as mind affecting. So the question is: Does telepathic bond count as gathering information or not. I say not.

[sorcererlover]

Telepathy in the context of psionics is analogous to the enchantment school, and I believe they are all [Mind-Affecting], just like enchantment. The mind link ability mentioned is a psionic power of the telepathy discipline, it makes no mention of mind blank stopping telepathic communication in general, and nowhere does telepathic communication get classed as [Mind-Affecting] at all. Telepathic bond on the other hand is divination, which mind blank only protects you against if it "gathers information" about you, and definitely not classed as mind affecting. So the question is: Does telepathic bond count as gathering information or not. I say not.

Actually you're right. Mindlink is Mind-Affecting, but telepathic bond is not.

[InterstellarPro]

That does not come under the definition of information gathering. The spell is not gathering that information, it is transmitting that information. By that same logic, someone with mind blank could not benefit from the tongues spell either?


Telepathy in the context of psionics is analogous to the enchantment school, and I believe they are all [Mind-Affecting], just like enchantment. The mind link ability mentioned is a psionic power of the telepathy discipline, it makes no mention of mind blank stopping telepathic communication in general, and nowhere does telepathic communication get classed as [Mind-Affecting] at all. Telepathic bond on the other hand is divination, which mind blank only protects you against if it "gathers information" about you, and definitely not classed as mind affecting. So the question is: Does telepathic bond count as gathering information or not. I say not.

Mind Blank prevents Scrying spells from acknowledging your existence. Apparently, your existence is information that could be gathered about you. Communication is actually information about your thoughts.

Tongues would function without problem. You would understand every language. But, when you spoke, Mind Blank would prevent the Tongues spell from gathering information about your thoughts. So, Tongues would become unidirectional.


Are you willing to be disproven on this point? Open the Player's Handbook, turn to page 177, look through the left column for the section titled "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw", and read that; it includes the specific example of an elf accepting a sleep spell.

This says that the elf can voluntarily accept a sleep spell, but does not explain what the effects of the spell would be. It talks about elven resistance to sleep, but mentions nothing about their immunity to it (D&D has resistances and immunities, and the two are treated separately). For example, one could have resistance to energy and immunity to energy. They function differently. For resistance to energy, one can still be damaged by that particular type of energy (given a powerful enough source). Energy immunity, on the other hand, does not allow for any damage, regardless of the amount of energy provided. A red dragon will never get burned by fire. He can swim in lava, and say "I'm ready to die, let the fire consume me", but he will emerge unscathed. If the red dragon decided to, he could cast a spell that would grant him resistance to fire. Then, he could voluntarily give up that resistance, but he would still be immune. Had the entry you pointed to discussed giving up the elven immunity to sleep as opposed to giving up "special resistance" to it, that would be different. As it stands, that passage is simply meaningless.

[Crake]

Mind Blank prevents Scrying spells from acknowledging your existence. Apparently, your existence is information that could be gathered about you. Communication is actually information about your thoughts.

Mind blank prevents scrying spells from acknowledging your presence, that's not the same thing. And again, this goes back to degrees of separation. Mind blank stops ANY divination that is used to gather information about you, not just ones that target you. Someone might use a telepathic bond to communicate information that they learned mundanely about you, so does that mean that no telepathic bonds could ever function while anyone at all has a mind blank spell up? No, of course not, that's silly. Why? Because telepathic bond does not gather information it facilitates communication.


Tongues would function without problem. You would understand every language. But, when you spoke, Mind Blank would prevent the Tongues spell from gathering information about your thoughts. So, Tongues would become unidirectional.

If it involved your thoughts, would it not be mind affecting? And remember, tongues only lets you be understood when you want to be understood. Again, it's not gathering information. You can't look at it through the lens of "the divination is reading your thoughts". Spells that read thoughts are in fact classified as mind affecting: see read thoughts. If it's not mind affecting, then don't bring thoughts and minds into it.

[InterstellarPro]

Mind blank prevents scrying spells from acknowledging your presence, that's not the same thing. And again, this goes back to degrees of separation. Mind blank stops ANY divination that is used to gather information about you, not just ones that target you. Someone might use a telepathic bond to communicate information that they learned mundanely about you, so does that mean that no telepathic bonds could ever function while anyone at all has a mind blank spell up? No, of course not, that's silly. Why? Because telepathic bond does not gather information it facilitates communication.



If it involved your thoughts, would it not be mind affecting? And remember, tongues only lets you be understood when you want to be understood. Again, it's not gathering information. You can't look at it through the lens of "the divination is reading your thoughts". Spells that read thoughts are in fact classified as mind affecting: see read thoughts. If it's not mind affecting, then don't bring thoughts and minds into it.

We are probably not going to agree. It appears the designers of DnD did not even agree on this issue. Look at Telepathic Bond, Lesser (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/telepathicBondLesser.htm), which is a Mind-Affecting spell with almost identical wording to Telepathic Bond. I think we are both in agreement that spell would fail to operate as it specifies that it is Mind-Affecting. And it may even be evidence that the designers specifically wanted Telepathic Bond to function across Mind Blank. But, it is still incredibly unclear, and I will continue to rule that Mind Blank disables the ability for the mind blanked subject to telepathically communicate outwards while you will continue to rule that it is allowed.

[Crake]

We are probably not going to agree. It appears the designers of DnD did not even agree on this issue. Look at Telepathic Bond, Lesser (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/telepathicBondLesser.htm), which is a Mind-Affecting spell with almost identical wording to Telepathic Bond. I think we are both in agreement that spell would fail to operate as it specifies that it is Mind-Affecting. And it may even be evidence that the designers specifically wanted Telepathic Bond to function across Mind Blank. But, it is still incredibly unclear, and I will continue to rule that Mind Blank disables the ability for the mind blanked subject to telepathically communicate outwards while you will continue to rule that it is allowed.

Lesser telepathic bond, despite being on the SRD, is not actually core rulebook material, it's from the expanded psionics handbook, and was written by someone completely different. They probably made it mind affecting to bring it in line with the mind link power, which functions very similarly, but the fact is, regular telepathic bond has no such tag.

Us agreeing to disagree is besides the point. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to make an argument to convince the OP who asked a question regarding how we believe it should interact. Here's another question for you though: Say there's a book written about you in a language that a person cannot read. You have mind blank up, and that person casts comprehend languages to read the book. Is the comprehend languages spell negated? After all, it's being used to gather information about you.

[InterstellarPro]

Lesser telepathic bond, despite being on the SRD, is not actually core rulebook material, it's from the expanded psionics handbook, and was written by someone completely different. They probably made it mind affecting to bring it in line with the mind link power, which functions very similarly, but the fact is, regular telepathic bond has no such tag.

Us agreeing to disagree is besides the point. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to make an argument to convince the OP who asked a question regarding how we believe it should interact. Here's another question for you though: Say there's a book written about you in a language that a person cannot read. You have mind blank up, and that person casts comprehend languages to read the book. Is the comprehend languages spell negated? After all, it's being used to gather information about you.

No, comprehend languages would function. You keep suggesting that someone in this thread is saying that these spells would be negated. No one has made that argument. No spells are being negated by Mind Blank unless they target the recipient of the Mind Blank.

Now, the effects of the Comprehend Languages spell are very unclear. Since the range of Mind Blank is personal, it only affects you. Anything that is not you is not within the purview of the spell. So, if you were holding the book while the reader was reading it, it would disallow the reader from reading any passage containing information about you. If the book were not in your possession, it may be beyond the reach of your Mind Blank spell and the Comprehend Languages spell would function at the DM's discretion. Typically, spells that function at a distance are noted as to what that distance may be. For example, telepathic bond states that it works so long as you are on the same plane. Mind Blank has no such language. So, it is up to the DM. Either the spell does not function for anything not on your person, or it functions at any distance, regardless of what plane you are on (you can read the stated distance in Telepathic bond as extending the distance of the spell effect or as restricting it at your pleasure).

[Crake]

No, comprehend languages would function. You keep suggesting that someone in this thread is saying that these spells would be negated. No one has made that argument. No spells are being negated by Mind Blank unless they target the recipient of the Mind Blank.

Legend lore is personal. Commune is personal. Contact other plane is personal. Augury is personal. Divination is personal. None of these spells target the recipient of the mind blank spell. Yet they can be used to gather information about the recipient.

Are you saying that mind blank doesn't protect you against these spells?

Mind blank doesn't protect you from being targetted by divination spells, it protects you from information gathering by divination spells. If a divination spell is gathering information about you, whether you're the target or not, mind blank protects you from it.

[InterstellarPro]

Legend lore is personal. Commune is personal. Contact other plane is personal. Augury is personal. Divination is personal. None of these spells target the recipient of the mind blank spell. Yet they can be used to gather information about the recipient.

Are you saying that mind blank doesn't protect you against these spells?

It protects against those spells, but it does not negate them. Questions about the individual who is protected by Mind Blank return no information. The caster who casts Legend Lore spends 1d10 days casting the spell. At the end of the 1d10 days, if the target of the Legend Lore has Mind Blank up, the Legend Lore spell is cast, but it returns no information.
When Commune is cast, it function normally until a question is asked about the subject of the mind blank. Then the person casting Commune receives only the "Unclear" answer.
When Contact other plane is cast, it function normally until a question is asked about the subject of the mind blank. Then the answer is always a one-word answer where that answer is either a lie (if you are contacting a trickster god, for instance), or it returns an answer of "Unclear" or "unknown" or some other one-word answer that indicates the contacted party does not know.
Augury functions normally. If the specific question asked regards the subject of a mind blank spell, it will always yield nothing (for actions that do not have especially good or bad results or unknown results). Note the text for Augury: "A cleric who gets the “nothing” result has no way to tell whether it was the consequence of a failed or successful augury. "
Divination function normally. If the specific question asked regards the subject of a mind blank spell, the cryptic response may be "Unknown" or it may just fail to return an answer.

None of these spells are negated. Their effects are just limited by the Mind Blank effect.

[TallerSpine]

Both arguments make sense to me. I am gonna use InterstellarPro's interpretation because it fits better for my current campaign but in the future I may have a campaign that allows it to function.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can I just point out that I already covered the essence of the last 20 posts in replies #5 and #10?

I want to point out that Crake's argument about mind blank stopping all telepathic bonds (insofar they are used to communicate about the mind blanked creature) is valid, and a neat dysfunction (nice find, Crake!). It got dismissed a bit easily, probably because it's quite absurd, but it does work, if you accept InterstellarPro's reasoning (which I do not). If you accept that all telepathic bonds "gather information" as part of their standard operation, then communicating about Wallace Izzard (currently mind blanked) through a telepathic bond requires the same gathering of information, and since said information would be gathered by a divination effect about a mind blanked creature, the gathering fails, that is, no information is gathered at all.

[TallerSpine]

Can I just point out that I already covered the essence of the last 20 posts in replies #5 and #10?

I want to point out that Crake's argument about mind blank stopping all telepathic bonds (insofar they are used to communicate about the mind blanked creature) is valid, and a neat dysfunction (nice find, Crake!). It got dismissed a bit easily, probably because it's quite absurd, but it does work, if you accept InterstellarPro's reasoning (which I do not). If you accept that all telepathic bonds "gather information" as part of their standard operation, then communicating about Wallace Izzard (currently mind blanked) through a telepathic bond requires the same gathering of information, and since said information would be gathered by a divination effect about a mind blanked creature, the gathering fails, that is, no information is gathered at all.

Isn't a divination failing to gather information technically providing information about the subject (namely that divinations about them fail for some reason)? So the divination is providing information by not providing information.

[Crake]

Isn't a divination failing to gather information technically providing information about the subject (namely that divinations about them fail for some reason)? So the divination is providing information by not providing information.

This is again where degrees of separation become an issue. The lack of information gathered is the end result. Deriving information from that is one degree of separation. The same applies to telepathic bond, the spell allows communication. Deriving information from that communication is one degree of separation. Comprehend languages allows you to read (or understand another creature). Deriving information from a book or creature is a degree of separation.

If you start allowing things to function over even one or two degrees of separation then problems are going to arise very quickly for your games.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Isn't a divination failing to gather information technically providing information about the subject (namely that divinations about them fail for some reason)? So the divination is providing information by not providing information.
What are you getting at, here? Are you suggesting that an information-gathering Divination spell could never be blocked, because then it would provide information, which it can't, because gathering information is blocked?

I mean, it's not going to affect the rules either way, it's just a bit of silliness that happens when you don't define "gather information" properly. I'd personally say that the Divination itself is not gathering any information; the character casting the spell is gathering meta-information about Divination spells in general.

[InterstellarPro]

What are you getting at, here? Are you suggesting that an information-gathering Divination spell could never be blocked, because then it would provide information, which it can't, because gathering information is blocked?

I mean, it's not going to affect the rules either way, it's just a bit of silliness that happens when you don't define "gather information" properly. I'd personally say that the Divination itself is not gathering any information; the character casting the spell is gathering meta-information about Divination spells in general.

TallerSpine's point seems to be that it is impossible to block all information being passed. A clever caster will learn something, even if it is "meta-information" as you term it. I think he was agreeing with you and Crake. But, if you wanna fight him on it, that's cool.

[Crake]

TallerSpine's point seems to be that it is impossible to block all information being passed. A clever caster will learn something, even if it is "meta-information" as you term it. I think he was agreeing with you and Crake. But, if you wanna fight him on it, that's cool.

From what I understood, he was making a query as to how it could block information gathering if stopping information gathering provides information in and of itself, which we were answering.

[TallerSpine]

From what I understood, he was making a query as to how it could block information gathering if stopping information gathering provides information in and of itself, which we were answering.

I apologize for the confusion. I was posing a rhetorical question. I spoke to Interstellar outside the forum and he chose to respond snarkily to you both. Sorry about that.

Anyway, my point was a clever caster should be capable of gaining information specifically by not gaining information. I was talking to him about providing clues to the party through metadata or "meta-information" about their spellcasting efforts to give them information about the target. It was a specific reference that I should have been more clear about. I want the party to be able to draw information from the fact that they cannot draw any information.

Anyway, I thank everyone for the advice.

[Hiro Quester]

I just noticed Varsuvius's (or the Giant's) explanation of mind blank here in Comic 1091 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html)

On V's explanation, it causes all mind-affecting spells to treat the subject as if it were wholly non-sentient.

On that reading, Telepathic Bond might allow the mind blanked individual to broadcast their thoughts to others, but the telepathic communication would fail when sent to the mind blanked individual.

[Elkad]

I just noticed Varsuvius's (or the Giant's) explanation of mind blank here in Comic 1091 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html)

On V's explanation, it causes all mind-affecting spells to treat the subject as if it were wholly non-sentient.

On that reading, Telepathic Bond might allow the mind blanked individual to broadcast their thoughts to others, but the telepathic communication would fail when sent to the mind blanked individual.


Which is exactly how I've played it for nearly 4 decades now. Your mind isn't there.

[ShurikVch]

The thread's name reminded me of this:
http://www.giantitp.com/Images/bcx/Misspelled003.gif