Kensei questions

[Vox Silentii]

If you choose a dagger as a kensei weapon, can you use the ranged kensei thing when throwing it.

If you have a longsword as a kensei weapon, can you use its scabbard under the same kensei weapon slot or would it fall under unarmed attack?
So you can slice with the sword and hit with the scabbard?

Since you can use the bonus action for an unarmed attack, does it state that you HAVE to use it after the weapon attack?
Or can you go unarmed-weapon instead of weapon-unarmed?

[Aett_Thorn]

If you choose a dagger as a kensei weapon, can you use the ranged kensei thing when throwing it.

If you have a longsword as a kensei weapon, can you use its scabbard under the same kensei weapon slot or would it fall under unarmed attack?
So you can slice with the sword and hit with the scabbard?

Since you can use the bonus action for an unarmed attack, does it state that you HAVE to use it after the weapon attack?
Or can you go unarmed-weapon instead of weapon-unarmed?

1) yes, you can use the Kensei ranged options with a thrown dagger as long as it is one of your Kensei weapons.

2) The scabbard isn’t a weapon. So at best it would be an improvised weapon, and wouldn’t qualify for dual-wielding since it wouldn’t be light, unless you took the dual-wielded feat. Either way, it wouldn’t be a Kensei weapon.

3) Unless a feature specifies the order, you can use your bonus action before your action fairly interchangeably.

[Eric Diaz]

3) there is a lot of discussion about the issue, but the text says:

Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on Your Turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a Bonus Action.

As a GM, I wouldn't mind inverting the order, but the text seems tio indicate the unarmed strikes come AFTER.

[Vox Silentii]

3) there is a lot of discussion about the issue, but the text says:

Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on Your Turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a Bonus Action.

As a GM, I wouldn't mind inverting the order, but the text seems tio indicate the unarmed strikes come AFTER.

But im not talking about flurry of blows, just the normal martial arts action

[Platypusbill]

The text on the free Martial Arts bonus action unarmed strike doesn't specify that it has to happen after the Attack action, so IMO you can choose to start with the bonus action (a similar question has arisen from the Eldritch Knight's War Magic, which provides a bonus action weapon attack when you use your action to cast a cantrip). However, if you use the Martial Arts bonus action attack, you are commited to using your action that turn to Attack.

[Malifice]

2) The scabbard isn’t a weapon.

It is if you re-fluff your club to be a scabbard.

Which monks are expressly allowed to do. They can refluff a hand axe to be a nine ring broadsword if they want. Their staff can be a nine section iron whip. A dagger can be a pair of those ninja claw things.

The club is a monk weapon.

[Aett_Thorn]

It is if you re-fluff your club to be a scabbard.

Which monks are expressly allowed to do. They can refluff a hand axe to be a nine ring broadsword if they want. Their staff can be a nine section iron whip. A dagger can be a pair of those ninja claw things.

The club is a monk weapon.

Yes, if you allow a monk to reflux an improvised weapon as a club, then it would work as a monk weapon. Still wouldn’t be a Kensei weapon, though, using the same choice as the long sword.

[Eric Diaz]

But im not talking about flurry of blows, just the normal martial arts action

Okay, my bad!

[Malifice]

Yes, if you allow a monk to reflux an improvised weapon as a club, then it would work as a monk weapon. Still wouldn’t be a Kensei weapon, though, using the same choice as the long sword.

You can refluff any monk weapon 9club, dagger, shorsword) as any weapon.

My first 'Kensai' was an open hand monk who used a Jian (shortsword). I was debating that, or a Katana (hand-axe).

You could pick scabbard/ boken (club) and katana as your Kensai weapon choices if you wanted to go all Musashi and ****.

[DarkKnightJin]

As DM, I would allow the Kensei Monk to use the scabbard of their Longsword as a Club, and using their Martial Arts damage die.

Depending on how much they abuse it, I might enforce them to spend a feat to get Dual Wielder to do that. If they do it just as a fluff thing with that +2 AC that Kensei gets? I wouldn't make them get a feat for that. It'd just be them parrying and deflecting incoming strikes with the scabbard, as you sometimes see in martial arts movies.
That'd just be a cool cinematic feel they get.

[Malifice]

Depending on how much they abuse it, I might enforce them to spend a feat to get Dual Wielder to do that.

If a monk swings with a weapon held in his hands and then uses his bonus action to swing with an offhand weapon attack he doesn't get his ability modifier. Unless he has dipped fighter for the two weapon fighting fighting style. He can't fight with both weapons at all unless both weapons are light.

He is pretty much always better off using the bonus action to punch or flurry instead.

I mean you could hold a Katana in one hand and a scabbard in the other, and simply choose which one you want to fight with or if you have extra attack feature attack once with each weapon (Or choose one of the weapons and have your other attack be an unarmed strike).

You are probably always better using your bonus action for an unrarmee strike or a flurry of blows.

[Mikal]

You can refluff any monk weapon 9club, dagger, shorsword) as any weapon.

My first 'Kensai' was an open hand monk who used a Jian (shortsword). I was debating that, or a Katana (hand-axe).

You could pick scabbard/ boken (club) and katana as your Kensai weapon choices if you wanted to go all Musashi and ****.

You're... playing a little loose with the actual RAW there.
The PHB says that "Certain monasteries use specialized forms of the monk weapons. For example, you might use a club that is two lengths of wood connected by a short chain (called a nunchaku) or a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade (called a kama)."

Note those are specialized forms of existing weapons, which is different from being able to "refluff any monk weapon (club, dagger, shortsword) as any weapon".

That being said, if the monk character spent some cash for a scabbard that was reinforced, I'd allow it to be used as a club.

But a hand axe as a "Katana"? No... you want a Katana, you use a long sword, which means Strength and no Martial Arts die, or choose it as a Kensei weapon.

[sophontteks]

As its written monks can flavor their weapons as they want. Its just a name. How is changing the name of a handaxe playing it loose with RAW?

[Mikal]

As its written monks can flavor their weapons as they want. Its just a name. How is changing the name of a handaxe playing it loose with RAW?

So... did you ignore where I directly quoted the PHB and it said monks use specialized versions of existing monk weapons? I.E. a club can be two pieces of wood with a chain, or a kama is a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade?

The rules don't say "You can call a monk weapon whatever you like". The rules say you "can use specialized versions of the monk weapons".

Unless you want to say that a Katana is a specialized version of a hand axe and can prove it...

[Malifice]

You're... playing a little loose with the actual RAW there.
The PHB says that "Certain monasteries use specialized forms of the monk weapons. For example, you might use a club that is two lengths of wood connected by a short chain (called a nunchaku) or a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade (called a kama)."

Note those are specialized forms of existing weapons, which is different from being able to "refluff any monk weapon (club, dagger, shortsword) as any weapon".

That being said, if the monk character spent some cash for a scabbard that was reinforced, I'd allow it to be used as a club.

But a hand axe as a "Katana"? No... you want a Katana, you use a long sword, which means Strength and no Martial Arts die, or choose it as a Kensei weapon.

I don't see katana anywhere in the players handbook. If my hand axe is a katana so be it.

It is just a hand axe with a longer straight blade.

Who cares what the monk calls his weapons. He can refluff his hand axe to be a light sabre for all I care.

[Tanarii]

The text on the free Martial Arts bonus action unarmed strike doesn't specify that it has to happen after the Attack action, so IMO you can choose to start with the bonus action (a similar question has arisen from the Eldritch Knight's War Magic, which provides a bonus action weapon attack when you use your action to cast a cantrip). However, if you use the Martial Arts bonus action attack, you are commited to using your action that turn to Attack.War Magic specifies order. It's worth noting the original the official SA document said it could be used in any order despite this, but then at some point they updated it and changed it to say that you had to use the order specified for War Magic, but that it wouldn't break anything to allow it. So clearly they are making a distinction between RAW (and possibly RAI?) and actual balance for that particular feature.

So yeah, "when thing you can X" apparently actually does mean "do X after you do the when thing". Despite many arguments in circles by people in these forums trying to say otherwise. And even JC. He should have gone with "technically one then the other, but it doesn't really matter for balance" and saved a whole lot of redefinition of existing words.

[sophontteks]

You quoted a fraction of the text that favors your houserule, but those are just specific examples.
"Whatever name you use for a monk weapon , you can use the game statistics provided for the weapon in chapter 5."
This implies pretty heavy that its the players choice what the name is. If you think their name hurts the roleplay experience, house rule it, but it IS a house rule.

[Mikal]

I don't see katana night anywhere in the players handbook. If my hand axe is a katana so be it.

It is just a hand axe with a longer straight blade.

Who cares what the monk calls his weapons. He can refluff his hand axe to be a light sabre for all I care.


That's because it's in the DMG. Page 41- "Wuxia"

Longswords are used as the basis for Katana's and Jians.
Handaxes are used as the basis for Ono's.

Regardless of where the Katana is, a handaxe is not a one or two handed martial weapon, which a katana would be. If you can bribe/threaten/fool your DM into thinking otherwise, or they're just that much of a pushover, I'm glad I don't play in their game.

As for who cares... I'd say anyone who cares about verisimilitude in their game, or trying to keep some semblance of internal logic. Or someone who wants their player to make meaningful choices if they want to do specific things. You know- Good DMs.

Though I would allow it if the player realizes that while the character may call it katana, that real katana's will actually exist, and anyone who knows what a real katana is will try and correct the monk at best, or mock him at worst.


You quoted a fraction of the text that favors your houserule, but those are just specific examples.
"Whatever name you use for a monk weapon , you can use the game statistics provided for the weapon in chapter 5."
This implies pretty heavy that its the players choice what the name is. If you think their name hurts the roleplay experience, house rule it, but it IS a house rule.

Actually based on the entire rules, when the rule says "whatever name you use for a monk weapon", that means "whatever name you use for a (specialized version of the) monk weapon, you can use the game statistics for the weapon in chapter 5."

I didn't include that, because I thought the context when looking at the entire rule is obvious, because you know... basic reading comprehension. Looking at it by itself without that context may imply the player can choose what the name is, regardless of no other considerations, but the very first sentence shows pretty clearly that the rule is intended for specialized versions of existing weapons, not "lolz I want Katanas so I uze handax!11!"

[Malifice]

That's because it's in the DMG. Page 41- "Wuxia"

Longswords are used as the basis for Katana's and Jians.
Handaxes are used as the basis for Ono's.

Regardless of where the Katana is, a handaxe is not a one or two handed martial weapon, which a katana would be. If you can bribe/threaten/fool your DM into thinking otherwise, or they're just that much of a pushover, I'm glad I don't play in their game.

As for who cares... I'd say anyone who cares about verisimilitude in their game, or trying to keep some semblance of internal logic.



Actually based on the entire rules, when the rule says "whatever name you use for a monk weapon", that means "whatever name you use for a (specialized version of the) monk weapon, you can use the game statistics for the weapon in chapter 5."

I didn't include that, because I thought the context when looking at the entire rule is obvious, because you know... basic reading comprehension. Looking at it by itself without that context may imply the player can choose what the name is, regardless of no other considerations, but the very first sentence shows pretty clearly that the rule is intended for specialized versions of existing weapons, not "lolz I want Katanas so I uze handax!11!"

Yeah bro and I'm glad I don't play your game with stupid pedantics get in the way of player fun and realising a character concept.

You can call your dagger a fooenwedodiddly for all i care. Your staff can be a tetsuo to oh or 3 section staff, or an iron whip, or anything that reasonably does bludging damage. Heck it can be a sword that you only ever use the flat of the blade for and never sharpen on the edge or it can be the scabbard of such a weapon.

Who cares; mechanically nothing is different and the players happy and having fun.

Which is kind of the whole point of the game remember?

[Mikal]

Yeah bro and I'm glad I don't play your game with stupid pedantics get in the way of player fun and realising a character concept.


Yeah bro and I'm glad I don't play your game where you actually enforce limitations and make players work within the rules to realize a character concept


You can call your dagger a fooenwedodiddly for all i care. Your staff can be a tetsuo to oh or 3 section staff, or an iron whip, or anything that reasonably does bludging damage. Heck it can be a sword that you only ever use the flat of the blade for and never sharpen on the edge or it can be the scabbard of such a weapon.

Who cares; mechanically nothing is different and the players happy and having fun.

Which is kind of the whole point of the game remember?

While the point of the game is to have fun the DM's role in the game is to set the limits of the world to help provide a place for those players to have fun.
That means creating a framework in which to do so. And sometimes that means telling a player "no", or in this case "no, not this way, but you can realize it by being a Kensei".

And if the player is so immature that such a restriction makes them whine and complain? Then I frankly don't want to play anything with them, let alone D&D.

[Malifice]

While the point of the game is to have fun the DM's role in the game is to set the limits of the world to help provide a place for those players to have fun.
That means creating a framework in which to do so. And sometimes that means telling a player "no", or in this case "no, not this way, but you can realize it by being a Kensei".

And if the player is so immature that such a restriction makes them whine and complain? Then I frankly don't want to play anything with them, let alone D&D.

Cool bro as already established in we play very different games.

I am much more open-minded with allowing my players to realise a concept that doesn't affect anything mechanically. In your games your own pedantic views influence player fun.

Enjoy your games.

[Mikal]

Cool bro as already established in we play very different games.

I am much more open-minded with allowing my players to realise a concept that doesn't affect anything mechanically. In your games your own pedantic views influence player fun.

Enjoy your games.

I do. As do the players in them. And hopefully the players on the waiting list to play if spots open for it or I find time to run a second one. So I guess my views do influence player fun, for the better. Maybe because they realize that actually putting limits or making them make choices actually causes the game to be more enjoyable, while a DM who calls themselves "open-minded" when they actually mean "apathetic to nuanced, logically consistent world building" gets boring.

Also, pedantic means being obsessed with minor rules and showing off learning, by being a pedant. I'm not being pedantic by actually pointing out a rule means something else when you're stretching it, and also pointing out that there are stats for a katana when you say you can't find any (to be fair you only said the PHB, though if you run games the fact you didn't mention the DMG doesn't bode well IMO). I am being pedantic though, by explaining what being pedantic actually means.

If I was being pedantic about the rules, then I'd point out that there isn't a scabbard in the wuxia rules either, but I already said I'd allow it if the PC reinforced the scabbard somehow, so...

[rbstr]

I figure a Hand Axe fluffs as a Wakizashi or Tanto. IMO Katana's need the versatile property and the larger die of the longsword.
But, who the hell really cares? The amount it doesn't matter is hard to overstate. At all as long as the thing works mechanically as one of the available monk weapons or is picked as the Kensei weapon the only difference is a name - that's arbitrary.

If OP wants their sheath to be a club, he can use it as a monk weapon...It's functionally the same thing as carrying a club around so there's really not game impact. Presuming, of course, that the two-weapon fighting rules and all that are being applied correctly.
They can even take it as a kensei weapon, but they only get a second melee kensei weapon at level 6. It would be pretty silly to not take the Longsword at level 3.

[Belier]

Why not use a quarterstaff template with a shortsword on one end?

I would nkt allow dual weilder with it but versatile is good for me

Also, even if you use it while 2 handed, nothing stop you from kicking as unarmed strike, juat so you know.

And as kensei weapon ability stipulate, you can choose any weapons, even martials, you become proficient with it and they are monk weapon, so the longsword is possible.

They just cannot have heavy and special property.

So why I say shortsword on a quartersraff and not longdword? Because of the versatile property.

You could hit with 1d8 slashing or bludgeoning and kick as a bonus action and get your 2 ac. Since it use the quarterstaff template, I would allow polearm paster as well

[Tanarii]

While the point of the game is to have fun the DM's role in the game is to set the limits of the world to help provide a place for those players to have fun.
That means creating a framework in which to do so. And sometimes that means telling a player "no", or in this case "no, not this way, but you can realize it by being a Kensei".

And if the player is so immature that such a restriction makes them whine and complain? Then I frankly don't want to play anything with them, let alone D&D.Seriously. If they start trying to come at me with "I have a Katana but it uses the Hand Axe stats" I'm going to shut that down right away. Because that means they want to find magical Katanas that use the handaxe stats, while everyone else in the campaign is finding Magical Katanas that use the Longsword stats. They don't get to redefine something that's already defined for every other player in the campaign because of "refluffing".

[sophontteks]

Rbstr is right that the player is mistaking the katana for other Japanese swords. That's the real problem. There are more appropriate names for the kind of weapon the player wants to use that doesn't detract from the theme. The Wakizashi is the weapon they mean to be using.

Katana's aren't a weapon in 5e, but if you have enemies using customized weapons called katana's then it would be a problem. I mean, how many people in the group are monks using katanas? What is it a pack of roaming Genji mains that stumbled into 5e? :smallbiggrin:

[Belier]

Rbstr is right that the player is mistaking the katana for other Japanese swords. That's the real problem. There are more appropriate names for the kind of weapon the player wants to use that doesn't detract from the theme. The Wakizashi is the weapon they mean to be using.

Katana's aren't a weapon in 5e, but if you have enemies using customized weapons called katana's then it would be a problem. I mean, how many people in the group are monks using katanas? What is it a pack of roaming Genji mains that stumbled into 5e? :smallbiggrin:

Katana is a valid weapon in 5e and the suggested template is longsword. Kensei can get proficient with any melee weapon that have no heavy or special property allowing him to treat a katana(longsword) as a monk weapon.

For the other guys, there is absolutely no need to refluff a handaxe as the longsword is totally legit for the class.

Besides, the waksizashi would be closer to a scimitar I guess.

For the idea of this guy, I think a shortsword/scimitar on the template of a quartersraff would be appropriate.

[sophontteks]

I don't even think the 5e scimitar represents a scimitar well :P (I'd have it as a rapier that does slashing. I just love how its 'light' and weighs 50% more then a rapier.)
But, if they want to throw it rather then dual wield I wouldn't care. Sure, throw your sword.

[Vox Silentii]

My fyrst kensei weapons where longsword (katana) and longbow(although i will never touch the thing, but it said i had to choose one ranged)
My third option was dagger, so i can throw it for martial arts die + kensei's shot.
My idea with the scabbard was to use as a "club" but it would be more optimal to use it as a +2ac blocking tool. Dual wielding doesn't fit my character. He just uses his sword with one hand (two if he musts).
Playing him as a swordsmith kensei
And i started in lvl 7 since my other character died :(

[sophontteks]

Sounds great.
Don't be afraid of the longbow, the Japanese were famous for their longbows. Their longbows were ridiculously long, and very popular. It was a staple samurai weapon. Do a google search of Japanese longbows and see if it fits your style when you see that they look like.

If your DM allows you could rename your dagger to a tanto to be more thematically appropriate.

[Gryndle]

I recently replaced a dead character with a kensei monk, at 9th level when I made the character, now he's 10th and soon to be 11th. I used the same weapon choices as above, longsword, longbow and dagger, for mostly the same reasons and same thoughts as the previous poster. I figured I would never actually use the bow, but carry one and arrows "just in case".

We use minis, and our fights are very tactical. We have a grid map under plexi glass with wet erase markers for most complex maps. but we also these hex-shaped terrain tiles that we can build up 3D terrain with, and we use them a lot for outside or rough terrain.

Most of our fights last session were outside, using that 3D terrain. Because of our party composition, the setups for the encounters and the terrain, I wound up taking the high ground and using my bow for most of the battles, switching to melee only when the enemy actually tried to close with me. And because of terrain and my allies, by the time anyone got to me, the fights were nearly over, and anyone that got that close to me was already pretty banged up.

So while I built my monk with the image of a highly mobile, dashing swordsman; I spent the majority of last session sniping with my bow like a beast, because that's what the situation called for tactically.

[Armored Walrus]

..and longbow(although i will never touch the thing, but it said i had to choose one ranged)
...
And i started in lvl 7 since my other character died :(

Changing your mind about using said longbow might keep you from having to reroll another character. Longbows are deadly in the hands of a kensei, and rushing directly into melee is rarely, IME, the optimal tactic.