Mystic Ranger of the Arcane Order

[cartejos]

I'm playing in a party of 4, the other 3 are all new. I don't quite know what they'll be playing, but one suggested that they'd play a fighter, another a wizard, and I'm completely in the dark about the third. This made me want to play a character with some combat, some skills, and a buffing focus. Here's the build I had in mind:

Binder 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Ranger 4/Metaphysical SpellShaper 1/War Weaver 5/X

My DM ok'd classes that say "+1 Level in Arcane Spellcasting Class" levels to be able to go to Mystic Ranger after I took the Sword of the Arcane Order feat

I was thinking going Spellguard of Silvery Moon with Arcane Disciple to Weave Divine Power to all my party, or maybe Arcane Archer to influence my Archery

Thoughts?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can skip the Wizard level and spend a feat on Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spell book that you're able to add more spells to (per Rules Compendium).

A Frostblood Half-Orc in Dragon Magic gets Endurance as a bonus feat at 1st level, and if you would later gain Endurance again as a bonus feat, you can select any other feat you qualify for instead. A Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at the 4th level, Sword of the Arcane Order requires Ranger 4, so going Frostblood Half-Orc basically gives a Mystic Ranger that feat as a bonus feat at 4th level. See if you can combine Frostblood Half-Orc with the Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) variant (a tundra is technically a desert), and use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant from Races of Destiny p150. That doesn't get an Int penalty, and you'll count as a Human instead of an Orc (but still count as a Half-Orc and Dragonblood race) so you can qualify for Magical Training.

Metaphysical Spellshaper requires the ability to cast 3rd level spells, so you'll need 6th level Mystic Ranger spellcasting before you can start taking that. Also be sure to get that cleared with your DM first, BoEF is as 3rd party as it gets.

[cartejos]

You can skip the Wizard level and spend a feat on Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spell book that you're able to add more spells to (per Rules Compendium).

I wasn't sure what would be better, a dip into Wizard and the Shooting Star ACF for a higher spellcaster level, or the feat expense, the Frostblood Half-Orc makes me lean more towards the feat


A Frostblood Half-Orc in Dragon Magic gets Endurance as a bonus feat at 1st level, and if you would later gain Endurance again as a bonus feat, you can select any other feat you qualify for instead. A Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at the 4th level, Sword of the Arcane Order requires Ranger 4, so going Frostblood Half-Orc basically gives a Mystic Ranger that feat as a bonus feat at 4th level. See if you can combine Frostblood Half-Orc with the Desert Half-Orc[/URL] variant (a tundra is technically a desert), and use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant from Races of Destiny p150. That doesn't get an Int penalty, and you'll count as a Human instead of an Orc (but still count as a Half-Orc and Dragonblood race) so you can qualify for Magical Training.

I'll check this out ASAP, I was trying to land the 4th ranger level at 6th level, but this makes it much more flexible.


Metaphysical Spellshaper requires the ability to cast 3rd level spells, so you'll need 6th level Mystic Ranger spellcasting before you can start taking that. Also be sure to get that cleared with your DM first, BoEF is as 3rd party as it gets.

I was thinking of using Earth Spell to get into both this and Spellguard of Silverymoon Early

[DEMON]

I wasn't sure what would be better, a dip into Wizard and the Shooting Star ACF for a higher spellcaster level, or the feat expense

A Mystic Ranger does not qualify for that ACF, since it doesn't have animal companion.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
(a tundra is technically a desert)….

No, a tundra landscape is not “technically a desert,” because tundra is defined not by precipitation, but by the deep level of permafrost below the surface. Temperate deserts don’t have permafrost, so the geology and hydrology are completely different.

Also, desert half-orcs gain heat endurance as a racial trait, which is hard to argue for in a tundra setting, at least with a straight face.

[Troacctid]

You can skip the Wizard level and spend a feat on Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spell book that you're able to add more spells to (per Rules Compendium).
I'm AFB, but I'm pretty sure you can only scribe spells that are on your class spell list, and as a Ranger, you can already prepare all the spells on your class spell list. Seems dubious.

[cartejos]

I'm AFB, but I'm pretty sure you can only scribe spells that are on your class spell list, and as a Ranger, you can already prepare all the spells on your class spell list. Seems dubious.

Pay someone to scribe them for you is the most common method I've found

[retaliation08]

Keeping the wizard level and exchanging your familiar for an animal companion with the UA variant might satisfy you GM if he hassles you over Shooting Star Sub levls.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Magical Training gives you a spellbook that you've already put several cantrips from the Wizard spell list into. Per the Rules Compendium, anyone who prepares and casts spells can learn more spells and add them to their spellbook via a method described there that's basically identical to the method described in the PHB for Wizards. So taking the spellbook version of Magical Training gets you everything you need for Sword of the Arcane Order.

[ATHATH]

Keeping the wizard level and exchanging your familiar for an animal companion with the UA variant might satisfy you GM if he hassles you over Shooting Star Sub levls.
Keep in mind that this isn't anywhere near close to RAW.

[death390]

I wasn't sure what would be better, a dip into Wizard and the Shooting Star ACF for a higher spellcaster level, or the feat expense, the Frostblood Half-Orc makes me lean more towards the feat



I'll check this out ASAP, I was trying to land the 4th ranger level at 6th level, but this makes it much more flexible.



I was thinking of using Earth Spell to get into both this and Spellguard of Silverymoon Early

earth spell has the feat tax of earth sense, technically Sanctum spell would work better, just would not be able to apply it outside of sanctum (but you technically have access to a higher spell level)

[Rebel7284]

I am assuming that the reason Wizard 1 dip is being considered is this line in SotAO:



If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.


While it's not clear from the text, there is an argument to be made that Mystic Ranger ALREADY has full caster level progression. If they inherited their (delayed) caster level progression from regular ranger, they would be completely unable to cast spells until level 4 which is clearly not intended. Even after level 4, the anemic caster level of the regular ranger makes many spells useless. Your mileage may vary, but that's the easiest and most intuitive fix in my opinion.

If you are instead considering this line

These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one)

As far as I know, anyone can have their own spellbook. Typically it's useless for anyone besides a wizard, but anyone who has 100 gold to spend, can buy an empty one. If the text said "Spellbook class feature" that would be a different story, but a spellbook is just a cheap item...

Some questions:
Is Wildshape Ranger variant stackable with Mystic Ranger in your campaign? Trading your (already delayed) combat style feats for Wildshape is an amazing deal.

Metaphysical SpellShaper is from the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
a) Is your group mature enough to have this as a regular source?
b) Are third party sources approved in general?
c) Are you sure that an infinite free metamagic battery is appropriate in a group of new players? It just seems like a completely different level of optimization that what most experienced and optimized groups tend to do.

[Nifft]

While it's not clear from the text, there is an argument to be made that Mystic Ranger ALREADY has full caster level progression. If they inherited their (delayed) caster level progression from regular ranger, they would be completely unable to cast spells until level 4 which is clearly not intended. Even after level 4, the anemic caster level of the regular ranger makes many spells useless. Your mileage may vary, but that's the easiest and most intuitive fix in my opinion. Agree. The clear intent of Mystic Ranger was that caster level went up 1:1 with class level, as it does for almost every other class.

Using standard Ranger caster level on a Mystic Ranger results in a rules dysfunction at levels 1, 2, and 3.


Is Wildshape Ranger variant stackable with Mystic Ranger in your campaign? Trading your (already delayed) combat style feats for Wildshape is an amazing deal. In games where I allow both, then yes I do allow them in combination. But I also tend to house-rule the Mystic Ranger's spell progression so that it's more like the Duskblade, rather than getting level 5 spells at level 10 and then stagnating for the last 10 levels.


Metaphysical SpellShaper is from the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
a) Is your group mature enough to have this as a regular source?
b) Are third party sources approved in general?
c) Are you sure that an infinite free metamagic battery is appropriate in a group of new players? It just seems like a completely different level of optimization that what most experienced and optimized groups tend to do.
a) Sure but it's not great even when I want sexual content. Kudos to them for making a sex-positive product, but it's just not that good mechanically.
b) Nothing is approved "in general", everything that goes into the game gets reviewed. Some 3rd party content has been approved, and some Core content has been removed.
c) I would not allow any infinite resource loop in a game where resource management was ever expected to be a challenge. Since I do like resource management as a game challenge, that would mean no infinite loops in my games, period.

EDIT: added spoiler.

[Rebel7284]

Nifft, are you the DM for this game? If yes:



In games where I allow both, then yes I do allow them in combination. But I also tend to house-rule the Mystic Ranger's spell progression so that it's more like the Duskblade, rather than getting level 5 spells at level 10 and then stagnating for the last 10 levels.


Well, are they both allowed then? Is the spell progression house-ruled?



a) Sure but it's not great even when I want sexual content. Kudos to them for making a sex-positive product, but it's just not that good mechanically.


Agreed that it isn't that great in general. I would be giving Wizards a ton of kudos if they published it themselves. A third party trying to fill a niche is admirable too.



c) I would not allow any infinite resource loop in a game where resource management was ever expected to be a challenge. Since I do like resource management as a game challenge, that would mean no infinite loops in my games, period.

Infinite may not have been the best word, however, metaphysical spellshaper in particular does allow for nearly unlimited metamagic using Metaphysical Metamagic with a Binder's Naberius vestige.

[Nifft]

Nifft, are you the DM for this game? If yes:

Oh! Nope, sorry.

Missed that requirement. :redface:

[Troacctid]

Magical Training gives you a spellbook that you've already put several cantrips from the Wizard spell list into. Per the Rules Compendium, anyone who prepares and casts spells can learn more spells and add them to their spellbook via a method described there that's basically identical to the method described in the PHB for Wizards. So taking the spellbook version of Magical Training gets you everything you need for Sword of the Arcane Order.
Not anyone. The spell to be copied must be on the copier's class spell list. It's pretty clear on that point. Without levels in Wizard, that's just Ranger spells, which are rather pointless to copy as you can already prepare them all. Magical Training doesn't help there either, since it doesn't actually add any spells to your class spell list.


As far as I know, anyone can have their own spellbook. Typically it's useless for anyone besides a wizard, but anyone who has 100 gold to spend, can buy an empty one. If the text said "Spellbook class feature" that would be a different story, but a spellbook is just a cheap item...
Sure, but an empty spellbook wouldn't be much use, right?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Per the Rules Compendium, anyone who prepares and casts spells can learn more spells and add them to their spellbook via a method described there….

Can you provide a citation with page number? I’d be interested in seeing the exact text you’re working from.

[Troacctid]

Can you provide a citation with page number? I’d be interested in seeing the exact text you’re working from.
It's under Writings, Magical. Last entry in the book.

[animewatcha]

A Mystic Ranger does not qualify for that ACF, since it doesn't have animal companion.

A snag with this is that the animal companion requirement is only for the 'half' of the sub level that pertains to it. Not the whole thing. Which is why people still suggest it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not anyone. The spell to be copied must be on the copier's class spell list. It's pretty clear on that point. Without levels in Wizard, that's just Ranger spells, which are rather pointless to copy as you can already prepare them all. Magical Training doesn't help there either, since it doesn't actually add any spells to your class spell list.

Magical Training allows you to cast several 0-level spells per day as a Sorcerer or a Wizard, specifically allowing you to cast spells as a Sorcerer or Wizard, thus making that your class spell list for those spell slots and for what your spellbook is used for if you pick Wizard.

[Zombulian]

Is Metaphysical Spellshaper the PrC from BoEF?

[Rebel7284]

Is Metaphysical Spellshaper the PrC from BoEF?

Yes, it is.

[Zombulian]

Yes, it is.

Nice.

That's actually a really cool PrC. Honestly, that whole book is cool. If only they had illustrations instead of... well...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Magical Training allows you to cast several 0-level spells per day as a Sorcerer or a Wizard, specifically allowing you to cast spells as a Sorcerer or Wizard, thus making that your class spell list for those spell slots….

Reading the feat, it looks like it gives you three 0-level spells, no more, which you can prepare in a spellbook. It doesn’t say anything about giving you the entire wizard class list. The feat doesn’t confer a level in wizard, just a spellbook specifically for those three 0-level spells. And having a spellbook for three 0-level spells doesn’t make you a wizard.

Note in particular that the feat doesn’t give Spellcraft as a class skill, which would be an essential prerequisite to copying additional spells. The feat specifies that you prepare your spells the same as a wizard, but it says nothing about adding any other features of the wizard class. The feat provides access to three cantrips, nothing more.


Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
…a spell book that you're able to add more spells to (per Rules Compendium).

Per the Rules Compendium (p. 160), “The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.” Magical Training doesn’t grant a level in wizard, and therefore there is no arcane class on the character to have a spell list for.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Reading the feat, it looks like it gives you three 0-level spells, no more, which you can prepare in a spellbook. It doesn’t say anything about giving you the entire wizard class list. The feat doesn’t confer a level in wizard, just a spellbook specifically for those three 0-level spells. And having a spellbook for three 0-level spells doesn’t make you a wizard.

Note in particular that the feat doesn’t give Spellcraft as a class skill, which would be an essential prerequisite to copying additional spells. The feat specifies that you prepare your spells the same as a wizard, but it says nothing about adding any other features of the wizard class. The feat provides access to three cantrips, nothing more.

Per the Rules Compendium (p. 160), “The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.” Magical Training doesn’t grant a level in wizard, and therefore there is no arcane class on the character to have a spell list for.

Your class spell list is whatever class you cast spells from, not necessarily the class you have levels in. If you have a spellbook and the ability to prepare and cast a few wizard spells, wizard is the class spell list you use for those spells and that spellbook.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
If you have a spellbook and the ability to prepare and cast a few wizard spells, wizard is the class spell list you use for those spells and that spellbook.

Not buying it. There’s nothing in Magical Training that bestows access to the entire wizard list. The point of the feat is to give characters without casting levels access to a couple useful cantrips. Magical Training isn’t a gateway to untold mysteries of the cosmos, it’s the ability to cast three cantrips, full stop.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, nowhere in the feat does it give you a class spell list. It just gives you three spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not buying it. There’s nothing in Magical Training that bestows access to the entire wizard list. The point of the feat is to give characters without casting levels access to a couple useful cantrips. Magical Training isn’t a gateway to untold mysteries of the cosmos, it’s the ability to cast three cantrips, full stop.

A Spellthief casts abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard class spell list. He only gets up to 4th level spells, but can still use a scroll or staff of a 5th-9th level spell that's included on that list. It doesn't matter what level of spells you get access to cast, only what class spell list your spells are chosen from.

[Troacctid]

Well yeah. That's because they have levels in the Spellthief class, thus giving them access to that class's spell list. Your class spell list is determined by the class you belong to. Hence the name.

[Sleven]

The feat gives you three spells, but in order to use those spells here's what it also gives you: you prepare spells as a wizard, cast spells as a wizard (with a caster level that scales with other arcane caster levels you have), and gain a spellbook.

Whether or not the feat gives you access to the wizard's class spell list is irrelevant. Per RC, "Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods." The feat does make you a spellcaster who uses a spellbook. That much is undeniable. As long as they can make the spellcraft checks, they can add spells. This doesn't necessarily mean they can cast those spells (which seems to be the debate). Sword of the Arcane Order is what allows the ranger to prepare and cast any wizard spells in the spellbook. List access for the feat is irrelevant, even for its more powerful uses (which aren't really within the scope of this thread).

[Troacctid]

The feat gives you three spells, but in order to use those spells here's what it also gives you: you prepare spells as a wizard, cast spells as a wizard (with a caster level that scales with other arcane caster levels you have), and gain a spellbook.

Whether or not the feat gives you access to the wizard's class spell list is irrelevant. Per RC, "Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods." The feat does make you a spellcaster who uses a spellbook. That much is undeniable. As long as they can make the spellcraft checks, they can add spells. This doesn't necessarily mean they can cast those spells (which seems to be the debate). Sword of the Arcane Order is what allows the ranger to prepare and cast any wizard spells in the spellbook. List access for the feat is irrelevant, even for its more powerful uses (which aren't really within the scope of this thread).
"The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list."

Also, I forgot to mention, but by the Spellthief logic, Magical Training only gives you 0-level spells, much like Spellthief only gives you spells of certain schools. So at best you're getting only the 0-level spells for your class spell list.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also, I forgot to mention, but by the Spellthief logic, Magical Training only gives you 0-level spells, much like Spellthief only gives you spells of certain schools. So at best you're getting only the 0-level spells for your class spell list.

Magical Training doesn't say you're forever limited to 0-level spells like the Spellthief's school limitation, only that you just get 0-level spells to start with.

If you cast spells from the Wizard class spell list, that's the spell list you learn more spells from. Nowhere in the rules does it say you need a class level to gain access to a class spell list, hence the Spellthief gaining access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Otherwise no Dragon or Naga could ever learn spells, because they don't get levels in any spellcasting classes, even though they can cast spells from those class lists.

[Sleven]

"The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list."

Copying spells isn't the only means of adding spells to a spellbook.


If you cast spells from the Wizard class spell list, that's the spell list you learn more spells from. Nowhere in the rules does it say you need a class level to gain access to a class spell list, hence the Spellthief gaining access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Otherwise no Dragon or Naga could ever learn spells, because they don't get levels in any spellcasting classes, even though they can cast spells from those class lists.

Also this.

[Troacctid]

If you cast spells from the Wizard class spell list, that's the spell list you learn more spells from.
Source?


Nowhere in the rules does it say you need a class level to gain access to a class spell list, hence the Spellthief gaining access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
How does a Spellthief gain access to the Sor/Wiz list without taking a level in Spellthief?


Otherwise no Dragon or Naga could ever learn spells, because they don't get levels in any spellcasting classes, even though they can cast spells from those class lists.
I mean...they can't. There's no mechanism for them to learn more, unless they take class levels.

[Sleven]

How does a Spellthief gain access to the Sor/Wiz list without taking a level in Spellthief?

It feels like you're intentionally misdirecting the point of that sentence, particularly as it relates to the rest of the paragraph.

You posited that one could not cast spells from the wizard list without class levels in the related class, yet:
Spellthief doesn't have wizard levels and can cast wizard spells. Monsters don't have wizard levels and can cast wizard spells. Etc.


I mean...they can't. There's no mechanism for them to learn more, unless they take class levels.

If something behaves as a wizard without wizard levels, there is a mechanism for them to add more spells without class levels: the spellbook. Although I'm not sure why dragons were Biff's example. I would have gone with ethergaunts or some such creature.

[Troacctid]

It feels like you're intentionally misdirecting the point of that sentence, particularly as it relates to the rest of the paragraph.

You posited that one could not cast spells from the wizard list without class levels in the related class, yet:
Spellthief doesn't have wizard levels and can cast wizard spells. Monsters don't have wizard levels and can cast wizard spells. Etc.
Those spells are explicitly on the Spellthief's class spell list. And there are separate rules for racial spellcasting, and even if there weren't, the wording is much less restrictive than on Magical Training.


If something behaves as a wizard without wizard levels, there is a mechanism for them to add more spells without class levels: the spellbook. Although I'm not sure why dragons were Biff's example. I would have gone with ethergaunts or some such creature.
Sure. Hobgoblin Warsouls have spellbooks. Listed right there in the statblock, even.

[DEMON]

A snag with this is that the animal companion requirement is only for the 'half' of the sub level that pertains to it. Not the whole thing. Which is why people still suggest it.

Besides the fact that I, personally, disagree with that definition, it changes nothing in the big picture.

It's a sub level, not separate ACFs, you can't take one half of a sub level. You trade your AC at 4th level and get 2 different features.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
Magical Training doesn't say you're forever limited to 0-level spells like the Spellthief's school limitation, only that you just get 0-level spells to start with.

You’re trying to read things into the feat text which simply aren’t there.

There is absolutely nothing in the text of Magical Training that indicates, or even implies, that your three 0-level spells are only the first installment of a longer series. That is not in the feat. There is no "to start with." The feat provides for those three spells and nothing more.


Originally Posted Biffoniacus_Furiou
If you cast spells from the Wizard class spell list, that's the spell list you learn more spells from.

Except Magical Training has no provision for learning more spells. Three cantrips and you’re done.


Originally Posted by Biffioniacus_Furiou
Otherwise no Dragon or Naga could ever learn spells, because they don't get levels in any spellcasting classes, even though they can cast spells from those class lists.

Dragons and nagas are monsters, not player characters, so it’s an invalid comparison. You know that.

A dragon learns new spells by advancing through age categories. PCs don’t learn new spells automatically when they enter a new age category, because they’re not monsters. As Troacctid pointed out, there’s no rules mechanism for a dragon to learn additional spells outside of the normal aging process, except for taking a level in a spellcasting class.


Originally Posted by Sieven
Copying spells isn't the only means of adding spells to a spellbook.

If you have another method in mind, please specify.

.

[Zombulian]

Copying spells isn't the only means of adding spells to a spellbook.

Are you, perhaps, referring to the process of adding spells to a spellbook as a result of gaining class levels in a class that provides spellcasting and a class spell list? Because, yeah, we know that. That's why people are arguing.

[Troacctid]

Dragons and nagas are monsters, not player characters, so it’s an invalid comparison. You know that.

A dragon learns new spells by advancing through age categories. PCs don’t learn new spells automatically when they enter a new age category, because they’re not monsters. As Troacctid pointed out, there’s no rules mechanism for a dragon to learn additional spells outside of the normal aging process, except for taking a level in a spellcasting class.
Well, player characters can be monsters too. And there are like three or four monster races that have Wizard casting and use spellbooks. But they operate under monster spellcasting rules, which are more permissive than Magical Training.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
Well, player characters can be monsters too. And there are like three or four monster races that have Wizard casting and use spellbooks. But they operate under monster spellcasting rules, which are more permissive than Magical Training.

Okay, fair enough. To me it seems a little much to compare dragons and PCs as if they were the same thing...but yes, there are dragon PCs. That's a can of spaghetti best not opened.

[death390]

a naga advances a few HD and gains an extra feat; Extra spell, what list does the naga pull from? i would say sorcerer. it meets the requirements, CL 3, so it can take the feat.

this is the same thing with magical training, it would make it so you gain access to the class abilities Spells and Spells Known/ Spellbook. the only difference is that it DOES NOT automatically increase due to the fact that it is not attached to anything. nor does it say that it increases with level. however if you somehow had the spell versatile spellcaster you could use it to cast a 1st level spell from there. in the case of the sorcerer it would probably be a metamagic version of the lvl 0 spell. but with a wizard version you could cast any 1st level wizard/ sorcerer spell you have scribed. because in the section about adding to a spell book it says that you can add ANY spell to a spellbook. the requirement to cast a spell however is it must be on your spell list.

and since you can cast those lvl 0 spells then you must have access to the spell list or it won't work.

i am AFB so i can't bring sources but i am pretty sure someone could find them.

[Nifft]

a naga advances a few HD and gains an extra feat; Extra spell, what list does the naga pull from?

Extra Spell as written can pull one spell from any list, and thereafter you get no special access to that list. You just get that one spell on your character's spell list, which is not the same as your class spell list(s).

It's a terrible example if you're trying to defend the idea that feats grant general, full access to a class spell list.