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Draconavich
2018-04-22, 01:56 PM
So I have a party of near epic level characters whose campaign has come to a standstill, and I want to bring them out of storage, get the crew and characters togather and breath new life into their story.. with a twist of my own.

now this party is already evil so a longterm backburner campaign setting idea has been to bring Cthulhu, other aliens and possibly a whole lot of D20 modern and future via timewarping gates and randomly occuring fields where some other time/plane/dimension crosses over to the campaign.

now my main npc will be the storyline starter. heres where I'm having issues. I want to use as much RAW as possible but the particulars mean I'll have to homebrew and I'm wondering how far has anyone else playtested any similar -even partial- campaign experiments.. the main character will be a remake of a mindflayer character Darlak Magnar Grok (plz tell me someone see's what I did there lqtm) but he'll be an amalgamation born of genetic breeding experiments by mindflayers and his base creature type will be a paragon mindflayer who has enveloped a creature with hybridized Dhampir and Lycanthropic Cheetah templates on a base half-shadow dragon Doppleganger or Rakshasha. if anyones ever played "Prototype" on xbox you might start seeing how I'm invisioning this characters gameplay but he'll also as mindflayers do make himself a position of power guiding from behind the scenes. but as an npc who will probly be part of the party the characters will get to team up and rule over a small city with the NPC. BUT! that will be a plotline to bring the enemies TO the PC's which with all the massive #'s of epic play will make the majority of fightscenes easy to lay out since we'll get to reuse and even remodel the stronghold many of the fights will be at.

so again my main question is how far has anyone gone with hybrid lycan/vampire or more preferably Daylight-capable Dhampir's?
then how far has anyone gone toward changeling feats so I might eventually "perfect Copy" a being right under someones nose and consume the body like in prototype?
Then how much has anyone ever dealt with the creation of mindflayers and their genetic breeding programs? I know of the "Ikea Terrasque" concept and reading thru that has been most helpful but I'm not actually looking to make him invincible. the part I've read from one of the official books qouted here;
"Illithids beget clutches of eggs that hatch into small, writhing, relatively helpless tadpoles. Tadpoles who survive a decade of life in the briny pools of elder brains undergo ceremorphosis, a secretive process whereby they merge with a humanoid by consuming its brain. They then initiate a series of morphological transformations that result in the commonly seen adult form." (sorry I forgot which book I snipped that from) so thats how I'll combine so many templates.

but now here's the biggest part of this conundrum: I want to make this creature a living -not undead- dhampir and eventually Lich. i.e. I want living flesh but some if not most of the benifits of the vampire and lich templates.. now I've looked at J.K.Rowlings' Voldemorte character with his Horcruxes/Phylactories and although deformed by his multiple splitting of soul he still has the benifits of respawning and though according to what Rowlings said on the subject of how Voldemorte truly got back a living body -or rather wouldnt say- that part of the process is particular and gruesome and perfect for this character and campaign. so has anyone ever layed out and playtested rules that are stable enough for gameplays sake that I could make use of in this campaign I'm working on?

Draconavich
2018-04-22, 01:59 PM
Heres my notes on the idea.

btw the book I found the most pertinent rules on was "Forgotten realms, Drizzt Do'Urdan's guide to the underdark."



I have an idea of a creature/abomination that a paragon mindflayer cabal might dream up and decide to do. Take a base paragon mindflayer, give it a genetic makeup with strong draconic and changling attributes by perhaps using a half-dragon template with heritage feats towards shapeshifting. then under lab conditions create a natural lycanthrope and set events to transpire so that this unnatural offspring becomes a Dhampir on top of these genetic mutations.
Train this being in the ways of the assassin.
by his mindflayer base he'll have psionics, by strangthening his genetics toward natural shapeshifting control with some form of changeling blood; he will be able to make much more of whatever lycanthropic disease('s) the cabal is able to infuse him with. by making him a living vampire or ("dhampir") he has much of the added strength of their abilities and kinda makes me think of the mutant vampires in blade 2, only those were more human than squidfaced and this creature couldnt be considered humanoid at all.., but as a dhampir instead of a full true vampire he can stand daylight, holy objects, crossing running water and even pass unsuspected for what he really is in-full.
now note that whether speaking of mindflayers, dragons, changelings, vampires or lycanthrope that in all cases some amount of inherent willpower is reknown to all those types, any were---- lord has mastery over his shapeshifting, a vampire uses his will in most of his powers, a dragon is reknowned for many things of course and mindflayers well duh.
then you may consider that the fact that his base type as having a paragon template means that in the end that will retain dominance in his genepool. the dragonblood -especially if a direct parent- would give this creature even greater natural strength, intelligence and wisdom and whatever bonuses of the type..
so to further speculate lets say they wanted to make a panwere of this creature..? --now keep in mind each step in this designer breeding would have to take time to set up, to go through all the growth, changes and inevitable mistakes that any lesser breeding program would have but the results could have far more catastrophic results such as a raging experimental creature out of control possibly infecting and spreading this enhanced vampirolycanthropy, or having to keep many "batches" of these children going in the experiment lest risk having to start all the way from the first breeding to accomplish the end hoped results..--
so now we have a half-dragon paragon mindflayer with both lycanthropy and a form of vampirism; now heres where I digress to Another movie " " where "micheal" the only version of a combination of vampire and lycanthrope was stronger than either of the most old and powerful of the vampire or the lycans. why I mention this is because to get a beings body to survive such horrible transformations and somehow get them to not rip apart the subject then there could concievably be added bonuses beyond the norm of either in order by virtue of how the genetics would have to recombine to function as any other result would tear them apart or not give life to them to begin with..
Now we want to maintain a constitution score but have this creature become a lich since we've managed to stay alive and not become undead in our brush with vampirism then perhaps we can find a way to make our anti-hero/villain or whathaveyou become practically immortal yet still some form of truly living flesh and blood.. and yet not a demigod while still obviously being perfect for an epic campaign as only a lesser or partial could be in anything lower level..


Voldemorte was a living lich, horcrux= Phylactory. Souron was a lich king/emporer over the lich lord "witchking of agnor" who was in turn lord over the other eight kings twisted into Deathknights.




Illithids beget clutches of eggs that hatch into small, writhing, relatively helpless tadpoles. Tadpoles who survive a decade of life in the briny pools of elder brains undergo ceremorphosis, a secretive process whereby they merge with a humanoid by consuming its brain. They then initiate a series of morphological transformations that result in the commonly seen adult form.

Ulitharids are rarely seen elite mind flayers, found in ten percent of illithid communities, who quickly rise to leadership.

Elder brains are sentient, disembodied minds that reside at the bottom of
the briny pools in which illithid tadpoles are nurtured. An elder brain?s cognizance stems from the brain tissue of recently deceased mind flayers. The tissue alloys into a united consciousness, maintained by an intricate psionic science.

Alhoon = illithiliches are rogue illithids who practice sorcery. This process involves a transformaticularly tion into undeath, after which the illithiliches gather into cabals for mutual defense.

Ceremorphs, also known as flayer-kin,? are one of the few successful crosses between
illithid tadpoles and another race. Known ceremorph successes
include mozgriken, tzakandi, and urophions, crosses
between illithid tadpoles and svirfneblin, lizardmen, and
ropers, respectively.

Neothelids are leviathan slugs that result from illithid tadpoles who remain apart from a humanoid. This incredibly rare event occurs only when an elder brain dies, its illithid community collapses, and a single tadpole survives the cannibalism of its abandoned kindred.

Vampire illithids are considered naught but a legend, but some claim that these undead horrors stalk the Underdark with the cunning of a rabid animal.

aimlessPolymath
2018-04-22, 05:25 PM
There's a lot going on here.

First, you should be aware of the logistical issues involved in stacking a load of templates onto one creature. Someone more versed in optimization can tell you more, but from what I understand, the resulting creature tends to be relatively weak for its CR due to lacking relevant attacks/having relatively low hit points for its CR. Secondarily, the resulting creature

Second, for your specific questions:


so again my main question is how far has anyone gone with hybrid lycan/vampire or more preferably Daylight-capable Dhampir's?
then how far has anyone gone toward changeling feats so I might eventually "perfect Copy" a being right under someones nose and consume the body like in prototype?
Then how much has anyone ever dealt with the creation of mindflayers and their genetic breeding programs?

I'm going to point you to the best resource I know of for creating custom monsters: Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=34.0).

This consists of a set of classes, each of level equal to a given monster's CR/a given template's CR bonus. This allows people to easily represent fusions of different creatures, creatures at different states in their development, and so on.
Your described creature, as a merger of many different sources, sounds very much like it could be modeled as a multiclassed Mind Flayer/Various character, with a lack of heavy investment in the classes representing him taking only a portion of their power.

Re: Hybrid lycanthropes/vampires, I don't think people have done much- they're rooted in somewhat different parts of mythology (if not popular culture) as one is nature at its most natural (the "inner beast"), while the other is a very human, social predator. Moreover, there's literally nothing keeping you from slapping both templates on the same creature in any case.
Re: Changeling feats: The closest you would probably get is normal-class variants on the Chameleon prestige class (which I can dig up if you like), or (in line with your character), the Greater Doppleganger (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7685.0) PrC.
Re: Mindflayer breeding program: No idea. If I had to create a system for such a breeding program, I would create a "near- mind flayer" template that could be applied to any creature, representing a illithid tadpole that entered the brain of a nonhumanoid creature (and so could not develop into a mind flayer). For a success in such a program, I would slap full mind flayer levels on the creature.


dhampir instead of a full true vampire he can stand daylight, holy objects, crossing running water and even pass unsuspected for what he really is in-full.
In exchange for this, a dhampir generally gets virtually no powers.


but now here's the biggest part of this conundrum: I want to make this creature a living -not undead- dhampir and eventually Lich. i.e. I want living flesh but some if not most of the benifits of the vampire and lich templates..
I mean, if you're the DM, I don't think anyone will say no if you just swap out the Undead creature type for Aberration. Do note that a Lich has to have caster level 12 in order to create their phylactery, representing their skill and knowledge with magic. Their various abilities are intended to shore up a spellcaster's normal vulnerability in melee, and would likely be of higher CR adjustment without that requirement (imagine an assassin with their paralyzing touch).


Now we want to maintain a constitution score but have this creature become a lich since we've managed to stay alive and not become undead in our brush with vampirism then perhaps we can find a way to make our anti-hero/villain or whathaveyou become practically immortal yet still some form of truly living flesh and blood.. and yet not a demigod while still obviously being perfect for an epic campaign as only a lesser or partial could be in anything lower level..
Is there some specific need for a constitution score?
Regardless, note that the part of this that you're aiming for (a practically immortal creature due to his contingencies) can be emulated much more easily- clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) provides a backup body that returns instantly rather than after a delay (if with level loss), and an argument can be made that multiple such clones can be stored up (perhaps in multiple facilities).

rferries
2018-04-22, 07:19 PM
It might be better to just make an entirely homebrewed creature (e.g. racial hit dice) and give it all the special attacks and qualities you like.

Could you make a list of everything you want (e.g. spellcasting/psionics, blood drain, etc.), and the CR you're aiming for? I'd be happy to draft a creature for you.

Draconavich
2018-04-23, 01:39 PM
I know about the multi-template/ECL and if it were a PC character I'd be in trouble but as powerful as he'll be his job in the campaign will be as a plotmover/shaker. as to why I want to do such a complicated creature it's just because I like all the individual templates and want to see what happens with all that in one package, and because I can see (in my minds eye) most of this compilation/amalgamation of a creature coinciding in one body so I want to see how it goes..

the Dhampir indeed is not much of a boost, in fact most of its other racial mods overlap and outdo most anything that template gives, BUT it's mostly a cosmetic adjustment. it does however allow this creature to maintain a constitution score and thus be able to not show as undead, and in particular it could breed. there's a good possibility I'll drop this template but for now I'm still just looking to add it for cosmetic purposes.

the reason for maintaining a constitution score is mostly to be capable of breeding. nothing scarier than a watered-down ikea tarrasque that can breed eh? I want the bonus HP, and to stay amongst the living. for arguments sake Darlak has a fear of death and thinks becoming undead is a tradeoff whereas he wants to keep all his benefits in becoming a lich and do something new.

the gr.doppleganger is great! prototype to a tee. the monster creation list is awesome and I'll have to spend some time perusing it. a shame about no one having tried building a vampire/lycan especially with that movie I mentioned, I'd think that would have inspired someone before me.. somebodies got to have done Something with the mindflayer breeding program other than the ikea terrasque, i'll continue that search.

as to changing the type to aberration; that's a great idea thanks, very K.I.S.S.

as to the offer to help me create a custom monster, thanks but this one'll have to be my own. it's basically carrying the torch from a couple retired characters and that's some of why this is soo complicated. designing the rest of the campaign will be a lot simpler once this guys done.

thanks all

Draconavich
2018-04-23, 01:45 PM
If this thread continues I hope someone pops up sooner or later on the subject of the mindflayer breeding/genetics program. anything on that topic, anyone else's experiments on that topic would be great for sharing and discussion. besides that's what I titled the thread Xd.

aimlessPolymath
2018-04-23, 02:41 PM
If this thread continues I hope someone pops up sooner or later on the subject of the mindflayer breeding/genetics program. anything on that topic, anyone else's experiments on that topic would be great for sharing and discussion. besides that's what I titled the thread Xd.

I expect you'd find a reasonable amount of stuff in the mode of "a template to add that represents genetic engineering" with some associated table of random abilities to be gained (ex. Cave Dinosaur, from the Miniatures Handbook), that one template used in the ikea terrasque, probably an evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240717-The-better-man-There-is-no-such-thing-base-class&p=13115715#post13115715)-related template), but relatively little in the way of "here's rules for how you can simulate genetic engineering", because there are so many aspects of biology that are not adequately simulated in D&D- birth rates, life cycle times, inheritance, etc, especially since
a) much of that work is irrelevant when it comes time for the DM to create the monsters the players are fighting- the results amount to a customized template anyway, and I think most DMs would prefer to create an encounter of appropriate difficulty.
b) Genetic engineering takes too long to be PC-relevant except in cases of extreme downtime/timeskips.
c) Creatures, especially monsters, are essentially piles of special rules, making generalized inheritance a joke- a dhampir is the product of a vampire and a human (or a pregnant human that was vampired), right? Except there's nothing, mechanically, to distinguish vampires from other kinds of undead, so you should be equally able to create part-zombies, part-mummies, and part-skeletons.

Draconavich
2018-04-23, 03:11 PM
indeed the breeding, lifecycles etc. are timewise too intricate and extensive to actually bring to the characters attention, the DM (me) is trying to have a little fun too. one of the bigger-picture schemes to this is that even if Darlak gets destroyed some character down the road perhaps in a different campaign entirely will run into offspring of this crazy critter.

Gorum
2018-04-24, 12:16 AM
A wall of text

1. Y'all need this in your life! (https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1509/24/1509249898236.pdf) To make a good synthesis, take a CR-Appropriate monster with similar stats and abilities like the Balor and modify / reflavor him. He doesn't need Quickened Fireball, for example, but an enchantment spell in its stead would do great. Then replace the Greater Balor Boon (not sure exactly how they're called) with something more thematically accurate. He could, for example, summon its own future self to help him into battle. However, his future self has its own agenda and won't spend its most valuable resources.

Plus you can throw in phrases like "I hate this when I did that." or "I'm the living proof of your failure. Quit when you can!"

2. The book with all the Illithid infos is the only D&D 3.5 book I still value: Lords of Madness (http://legobelinrouge.com/drop/3.5/D&D%203.5%20-%20Lords%20of%20Madness%20-%20The%20Book%20of%20Aberrations%20%5BOEF%5D.pdf)

3. The genetic experiment thing would be the purview of the Elder Brain. Your "main NPC" should be an heretic according to their own standards. This, by itself, is no deterrent, but having him hunted down (or at least under observation) by other illithids might make the game interesting.

4. Look into the grafter prestige class (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grafter_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)). It's close enough to Genetic experimentation and will end up saving yourself a lot of time. Otherwise, look at other aberrations, especially those whose link to the far realm is not as obvious. Then find CR-appropriate monsters and monsters whose CR is about 5 lower. Take the stats and abilities' DC of the first, the actual abilities of the second and top it off with aberration-themed abilities / graft and voilą!

EG:
Stats: oni-void-yai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/oni/oni-void-yai)
DCs between 22 and 26, 23 Hit dice, Str 44, Dex 15, Con 32, Int 18, Wis 23, Cha 25

Base Monster: 9-headed troll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/troll/troll-jotund)
Immune to some mind effects and resistant to others (Great!), Regen, Roar, Stone Throwing, extra attacks of opportunity, etc.

Bonus Abilities: Replace Fast Swallow by the Illithid ability to eat brains and give it a 3/day DC 26 AoE (E.G. 20ft radius) Mind Blast as a swift action that can't be used the same turn as the Roar and Extra Attacks of Opportunity. And voilą, you've got a HUGE 9-illithid-headed CR 20 abomination. AND I WOULD PLAY IT AS HAVING AN INT SCORE OF 18.


Peace out.

rferries
2018-04-24, 01:00 AM
This book builds upon two ideas. First, many dungeon
masters spend a great deal of time planning and preparing
their Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) games without
necessarily bringing more enjoyment to their players or
themselves. Second, and potentially more profound, less
preparation may result in a more enjoyable D&D game.

Ain't it the truth!

Draconavich
2018-04-26, 12:57 PM
the group I play with really likes to have written and playtested rules that they can look up even if it's homebrewed or had to be modified from another RPG like GURPS or Rolemaster. I think I've figured out how I'm gunna do it now.

I know that overcomplicating can slow the campaign or ruin the fun but as there are several other games going on within the same group of players I can sit back and work on the complicated stuff which is mostly just being straight on the build and backstory for my protagonist. as my players may look this forum up and I've indeed shown at least two of them I cannot say much more lest I spoil the surprise but I've found an easy way to both nullify several of the weaknesses while making room in the same blow for a lead onto some bigger storyline's for later..

@rferries: where is that last quote from?, it sounds familiar.

rferries
2018-04-26, 04:37 PM
@rferries: where is that last quote from?, it sounds familiar.

Oh it's been used in many many things by now... I think as far back as the Wizard of Oz if not earlier.

aimlessPolymath
2018-04-26, 06:44 PM
Alright, quick and dirty rules for mutation -> genetic experimentation.

Mutate
The mutate template may be added to any creature with a Constitution score. It may be added any number of times.

Mutations: A mutate gains six mutations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240717-The-better-man-There-is-no-such-thing-base-class&p=13115715#post13115715). Their Mutator level is equal to their hit dice. These mutations are chosen at random (but see Experimentation)

Unstable: A mutate has a random flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm).

CR: +1
LA: +1


Experimentation & Stable Mutations: With access to a pool of Unstable Mutagen and a series of skill checks, an unborn creature can gain the Mutate template.
The skill checks are as follows:
-Heal DC 20. If this check is failed by 5 or less, add an additional flaw. If this is failed by 6 or more, the creature dies before surviving to adulthood.
-Spellcraft DC 20. If this check is failed, the mutation cannot be controlled.
-Knowledge(nature) DC 20. If this check is failed, the process cannot be replicated.
-Handle Animal/Diplomacy DC 15. If this check is failed, the resulting mutate turns against its creators.

If the Knowledge(nature) check is succeeded, then the precise development of the mutagen is properly recorded, and may be replicated in other creatures. Thereafter, when performing the procedure on a creature of the same species and arcane structure (i.e. same preexisting templates and mutations), if the Spellcraft check is succeeded, the resulting template may be an exact copy of the original, rather than determined randomly.

At the creator's option, the Mutate template may be applied multiple times; all skill check DCs are increased by 10 for each additional time applied.

D3dcliQ
2021-04-11, 05:45 PM
My computer crashed and life happened, I am Vladmir Kerensky "Draconavich" (my favorite nickname from all my years of gaming and LARPing) and I've not only made the rest of the monstrosity into a mid-level god but started a pantheon and more work on a world and even some short stories (that may eventually gt expanded then edited into a pubished title) to go with him :smallbiggrin: