Build Help - Warlock / Totemist / Enlightened Fist Clawlock

[schreier]

I am thinking level 2 totemist, but I've never used MoI so not sure exactly how it would work (other than definitely taking Girallon Arms) and eldritch claw with the standard monk damage enhancers (size increases, monk's belt/tatoo) and taking beast strike to effectively double the unarmed damage.

Any other help is appreciated.

Obviously, could add Barbarian 1/2 (for pounce/trip) if it makes a big difference

[schreier]

The more I read, the less attractive the totemist sounded as a dip for this type of character. It seems like I could get extra natural attacks, but the monk and warlock would not have any damage synergies.

Is that probably accurate?

[Troacctid]

It could give you pounce and extra attacks, both of which are valuable for a Clawlock. Of course you can get that through Barbarian instead, but the alignment restriction doesn't play very nicely with Monk.

Typical soulmelds shaped would be Sphinx Claws bound to hands (pounce with natural weapons) (requires Open Least Chakra) and Girallon Arms bound to totem (three extra claw attacks), with Blink Shirt (short-range teleport at will) or Wormtail Belt (AC boost) as the third one.

[schreier]

Thanks ... are there ways to increase the damage on the girallon arms (other than sneak / skirmish and essence)? Would an amulet of natural attacks work?

With the sphinx claws - does pounce allow for unarmed attacks? The power says it only allows natural weapons, and unarmed strike under monk says "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

So with girallon arms and sphinx claws and clawlock, you would have full iterative attack with open hand (which does open hand x2+eldritch blast) and the claw secondary attacks (eldritch claws x2, girallon x2?)

Thanks in advance
schreier

[Troacctid]

An Amulet of Natural Attacks should work.

Sphinx Claws are indeed an effect that improves natural attacks, so they'll work just fine with your unarmed strikes.

[schreier]

So warlock 3/totemist 2 / monk 5 / enlightened fist 10
With monks belt and level 20 greater mighty wallop, beast strike, improved natural attack (on unarmed strike), and your suggested soulmelds (feat to get Sphinx claws on hands, girallon on totem) ... Any other good 3rd soul meld options?

Level 11 warlock (6d6 Eldritch claw)
Level 20 monk damage collosal+ effectively I believe? 16d8 damage if it works, 12d8 if not

What would a charge full attack be? Can you flurry and get all of the natural weapons? Should he take multiattack? I'll also assume TWF at least (basic feat)

What if he had natural claws (say half dragon) ... How do the Eldritch claw and Sphinx claw and girallon arms work with existing natural claws?

BAB 13
Assume strength 14
Level 5 flurry (so +1 attack at -1)

Specific feats you'd recommend? Snap kick?
Specific items other than amulet of natural attack?

Without an amulet of natural attacks, just the greater mighty whallop (lvl 20) and monk's belt, with multi attack and beast strike, open least chakra and the two suggested offensive bound chakra (sphinx/girallon) and the eldritch claw, I believe the attack would be:

Full attack w/ natural weapons and two-hand fighting:
BAB 13 + str 14 (+2)

13 / 13 / 8 / 3 (including strength and TWF) plus secondary natural attacks girallon arms 11 / 11 /11 /11 (multiattack at -2)
I believe damage on the iterative unarmed attacks would be 16d8 (colossal+ unarmed lvl 20 monk) + 6d6 (eldtich blast through claw) + 16d8 (unarmed damage added against with beast strike) + 2 (Strength bonus)
I believe the two secondary natural attacks with the girallon arms would just be 1d4 damage? + 2 points (strength)?
And the two natural attacks with the Eldritch claws would be 16d8 + 6d6 + 2

Both could be helped by the amulet of natural attacks.

Is that right?

Would flurry add one more attack at max, but make everything -1 (so 12 / 12 / 7 / 2 and then 10 / 10 / 10 / 10)? Same damage?

Thanks,
schreier

PS - the Girallon arms seem underwhelming at this rate, so it feels like level 2 of barbarian would be more powerful (with unarmed TFW, pounce, and improved trip with more HP than the two extra Girallon attacks) - unless you load up an amulet of natural weapons with lots of damage? Obviously totemist has other utility- the wormtail/blink shirt...

PPS - the natural claws (from half dragon potentially), the claws from girallon arms - do they add any damage to attacks, or are they overwritten by the eldritch claws (so useless)?

Edit: forgot the Eldritch claws get their own attack

[TristanS]

It looks right to me. I would definitely add snap kick, since it allows an extra unarmed attack, and that is where your big damage is with the beast strike.

I wonder if you could go Battledancer instead of monk? As far as I can tell, Battledancer unarmed damage follows the same track as monk, so I would think it would stack with enlightened fist. It also uses Charisma instead of wisdom so synergizes with warlock. That's assuming it works with enlightened fist and Monk's belt for damage.

If not, obviously stick with monk.

[Troacctid]

So warlock 3/totemist 2 / monk 5 / enlightened fist 10
With monks belt and level 20 greater mighty wallop, beast strike, improved natural attack (on unarmed strike), and your suggested soulmelds (feat to get Sphinx claws on hands, girallon on totem) ... Any other good 3rd soul meld options?
Sure. Chaos Roc's Span, Pegasus Cloak, and Phase Cloak are some more good non-bind options. If you don't like Girallon Arms on your totem, then some other good options for it are Gravorg Tail, Great Raptor Mask, Heart of Fire, Pegasus Cloak, Lamia Belt...


Can you flurry and get all of the natural weapons?
No, because claws aren't considered monk weapons, and only monk weapons can be used in a flurry. If possible, I'd recommend using the Raging Monk variant from Dragon #310 to replace flurry of blows with rage. Chaos Monk from Dragon #335 could also work.


What if he had natural claws (say half dragon) ... How do the Eldritch claw and Sphinx claw and girallon arms work with existing natural claws?
In general, there aren't any firm rules for this, but the natural weapon rules recommend one attack per claw. Ask your DM. A common ruling is only one natural attack per limb.


PS - the Girallon arms seem underwhelming at this rate, so it feels like level 2 of barbarian would be more powerful (with unarmed TFW, pounce, and improved trip with more HP than the two extra Girallon attacks) - unless you load up an amulet of natural weapons with lots of damage? Obviously totemist has other utility- the wormtail/blink shirt...
Up to you, but personally, I don't think Improved Trip is going to be very valuable on a build like this. No reason to go past Barbarian 1, IMO.

[schreier]

Once you get to level 12 (with just level 2 totemist), could you get open lesser chakra, and have all three soulmelds bound? So - have sphinx claws (hands, least), chaos roc's span (shoulders) and girallon arms, all bound to chakras?

Do people generally go the totemist multiple natural attack route with more of a sneak/skirmish focus? The daze effect seems handy as long as you have a high Con (on the Roc's span) but damage is going to be very low compared to the monk beast attack damage. With martial stance, hunter's eye, etc ... you can get a good amount of sneak attack damage - is that the best route?

BTW - is it possible to get an item with permanent hunter's eye on it, or greater mighty wallop, or grave/vine/golem strike? Can you persist them?

I agree with trip being immaterial - and if no trip and you can get sphinx claw pounce, why bother with barbarian at all ..

Thank you for all of the assistance.

[Troacctid]

Once you get to level 12 (with just level 2 totemist), could you get open lesser chakra, and have all three soulmelds bound? So - have sphinx claws (hands, least), chaos roc's span (shoulders) and girallon arms, all bound to chakras?
Sure, but the shoulder bind on Chaos Roc's Span is not super amazing on account of the low save DC. If you want that effect, I think you'd be better off spending the extra feat for Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots) + Open Least Chakra (Feet), since it procs separately on every attack and also deals extra damage.


Do people generally go the totemist multiple natural attack route with more of a sneak/skirmish focus? The daze effect seems handy as long as you have a high Con (on the Roc's span) but damage is going to be very low compared to the monk beast attack damage. With martial stance, hunter's eye, etc ... you can get a good amount of sneak attack damage - is that the best route?
AFAIK the baseline strategy is to just have a high Strength, since you get that added to each attack, and then make a bazillion attacks. Adding precision damage—or other on-hit effects like Touch of Golden Ice or the Soul Eater's energy drain—is higher-op, but not necessary for the strategy to be functional.


BTW - is it possible to get an item with permanent hunter's eye on it, or greater mighty wallop, or grave/vine/golem strike? Can you persist them?
Custom items are the purview of the DM. So, ask your DM.

[schreier]

Golden Ice seems like a great synergy - you're right. I have heard arguments that either: the save DC is fixed (per the entry in BoED for the ravage "potion"). I have read a lot of arguments that the DC should scale - either with Con (per a poison from a creature) or with Cha (as a supernatural effect) instead of being fixed at 14. I assume there is no consensus -- my inclination is to scale with Charisma, but wasn't sure what most people did here.

As far as the totem binds - if they seem like a body part, do they restrict item and/or chakra binding at that location? For example: Lamia Belt bound to totem basically gives you a lion's lower body. It describes clawed paws, and it is a belt to begin with. Could you take Lamia Belt (bound to totem), Thunderstep boots (bound to feet, obtained with the feat shape soulmeld), and a wormtail belt (not bound)?

Also - it seems like the fluff about "evil" on the lamia belt is just fluff ... would there be a problem with a good totemist taking that soulmeld? It seems like that only truly impacts the incarnate and soulbound?

When looking at the necklace of natural attacks -- if he went girallon arms, sphinx claws and wormtail belt -- he would have "4" claw attacks (the girallon arms would be 2, then regular arms would have the sphinx claws I'm guessing instead of the girallon since they do more damage?). He could override his main claws with the eldritch claws. So he would have 4 claw attacks, but the specific makeup of the claws could vary. So for the necklace - would he take claws x4 and unarmed attack x2, and it would apply to whichever claws were present at the moment? Can the necklace work with the eldritch claw?

If you got elemental damage on the necklace and applied it to the claws AND to the unarmed attack ... would an unarmed attack with beast strike do: Unarmed damage + elemental + (eldritch claw + unarmed damage + elemental) ?

[Troacctid]

As far as the totem binds - if they seem like a body part, do they restrict item and/or chakra binding at that location? For example: Lamia Belt bound to totem basically gives you a lion's lower body. It describes clawed paws, and it is a belt to begin with. Could you take Lamia Belt (bound to totem), Thunderstep boots (bound to feet, obtained with the feat shape soulmeld), and a wormtail belt (not bound)?
You can only have one soulmeld shaped per body slot. A soulmeld bound to your totem still has to be shaped in one of the other slots, so the Lamia Belt would occupy your waist chakra; however, unless it's bound to your waist chakra, it won't conflict with magic items there.

If you're unarmored, then the easy fix is to swap Wormtail Belt for Ankheg Breastplate.


Also - it seems like the fluff about "evil" on the lamia belt is just fluff ... would there be a problem with a good totemist taking that soulmeld? It seems like that only truly impacts the incarnate and soulbound?
While other classes have alignment restrictions on the soulmelds they can shape, Totemists do not.


When looking at the necklace of natural attacks -- if he went girallon arms, sphinx claws and wormtail belt -- he would have "4" claw attacks (the girallon arms would be 2, then regular arms would have the sphinx claws I'm guessing instead of the girallon since they do more damage?). He could override his main claws with the eldritch claws. So he would have 4 claw attacks, but the specific makeup of the claws could vary. So for the necklace - would he take claws x4 and unarmed attack x2, and it would apply to whichever claws were present at the moment? Can the necklace work with the eldritch claw?
Eldritch Claws are natural attacks, so the necklace should work with them. But do keep in mind that if you have more than three different natural attacks, Amulet of Mighty Fists may be more cost-effective.


If you got elemental damage on the necklace and applied it to the claws AND to the unarmed attack ... would an unarmed attack with beast strike do: Unarmed damage + elemental + (eldritch claw + unarmed damage + elemental) ?
I don't think so, but I suppose you could ask your DM.

[schreier]

Thanks for all of the help! Definitely grasping the idea of the totemist, although trying to picture some of the things they would bind just confuses me :)

For example - let's say a level 18 totemist binds:

Girallon Arms (Arms, bound to totem)
Lamia Belt (Waist, bound to totem with double chakra feat)
Sphinx Claws (hands, bound)
Thunderstep Boots (Feed, bound, learned with shape soulmeld feat)
Totem Avatar (Should bound)

What do you look like?

I'm guessing it's like a blood ape with 4 arms upper body, attached to a lion lower body with bands around the front paws? Just hard to picture :)

"Incarnum forms two additional, powerful arms that spring out from your ribs. These spirit arms mirror the movements of your real arms. All four of your arms are tipped with long claws that no longer seem ghostly, but quite real -- and quite sharp"

"The lower part of your body below your lamia belt takes on the shape of a lion, with four legs ending in sharp claws, a long, tufted tail, and coarse golden-brown fur. The upper portion of your body is unchanged, though perhaps a spark of evil grows stronger in your heart."

"Your hands become one with the claws that surround them, over-large for your size."

"You shape incarnum into a pair of heavy boots that fit over your feet and any other boots that you might wear. Cobalt steel forms rings around your calves and reinforces the toes of the boots"

"You shape incarnum into an imposing avatar of bestial power. This corporeal shape fits over your clothing and armor, but it makes you seem like (a blood ape, taking on the appearance of a red-furred gorilla.)" Your actual body is only barely visible with the ... form."

Is that the likely appearance? I can't imagine hiding the lion body, and the boots over claws seems weird :) I assume disguise self could work to hide the incarnum? In general does that work? Otherwise ... totemists pretty much have to stay away from cities if they're "prepped" for battle