Lore bard build help

[dok]

Hello, first time poster. I am looking for some advice with building a lore bard. This is my first 5e campaign but I used to play back in ad&d, I consider myself a fairly new player 5e but not to RPGs in general. I will be building it at lvl 4, 27 point buy, all official material ok. I will be in a group with an aasimar redemption paladin (I suspect he may multi into celestial warlock at some point), a wood elf monk, and a forge cleric dwarf. I am making this bard to replace my recently deceased wizard. I am looking to fill the rogue / skill monkey, face, and control caster roles.

Regardless of build I plan on taking +2 cha with my lvl4 asi, and think I would like to take cha to 20 as soon as I can unless there is a much better option. I do not want to multiclass but intend to stay full lore bard to not delay spell progression, at least for the foreseeable future. I am considering a couple options:

- Half elf, 8str 16dex 14con 10int 12wis 16cha

- V human 8str 16dex 14con 8int 10wis 16cha with warcaster feat

- V human 8str 15dex 14con 10int 10wis 16cha with moderately armored feat +1dex (16 total) or swap to 14dex 16con?

Or maybe V human with magic initiate into sorc spell list for some damage options? firebolt / booming blade / defensive lvl 1 spell?

Is the feat worth missing out on the half elf package? Is the ac I could get from mod armor feat worth it or is warcaster way better? I am paranoid I am overvaluing the ac but I don't know (I would use a shield). I notice that bards seem to have a large number of concentration spells so it appears like it would be nice to have the warcaster benefits. Is 16 dex needed or could I go 14 and get 16con plus the ac from mod armor? With my wizard I was not hit often at all but I can see that starting to change and with the bard it would be nice to be able to get into the fray a tiny bit more. I expect to mostly be backline casting but don't want to be totally feeble if something jumps me. I am looking at spells too and would love advice on what people have found helpful as well. Thanks for your time and opinion!

[sophontteks]

If you are a lore bard you will not be going into the fray more. Bards lack the defensive spells wizards have outside of burning the lore bard spells on them, and thats at level 6 and it'd be only 2 spells. You do not want to be doing anything close to those booming blade shenanagans.

You listed many roles: Skill monkey, face, control, rogue.
If you are going to be control, face, skill monkey. Forget about doing damage almost entirely. You doing damage is a waste of your turn. If you want a good damage cantrip check out viscious mockery. 1d4 dmaage plus giving the enemy disadvantage on their next attack. Disadvantage is great battlefield control.

As a face, you'll want to take spells with limited combat potential like:
enhance ability- give yourself advantage on all charisma checks for an hour. Among other things.
Suggestion-Tell an npc to carry out a reasonable suggestion for up to 24 hours. Very powerful control spell and face spell.

Whatever you do, remember what roles you want to fill. Let your party members fill in the other roles. You don't need to dps/tank/rogue/skill monkey/face. Do what you do best, what your party needs you to do best.

Bards have a lot of concentration spells but its not as bad as the druid IMO. You don't need to take war caster, though its certainly nice. Your not really seen as a threat which may be one of your best defenses. Don't worry about picking the best race. Pick what you think would be fun. While everyone else is going to be swinging swords and fighting, you're gonna be skipping around with your favorate musical instrument in battle.

(Also, just a heads up, lore bards don't use shields)

[nickl_2000]

(Also, just a heads up, lore bards don't use shields)

Lore Bards who take the Moderately Armored feat (mentioned in the OP), do use shields.



You have 2 tanks in the Paladin and the Forge Cleric, if you are in combat something went very, very wrong. I wouldn't waste the feat on Moderately Armored if it were me. Hide behind that wall of metal that is available to you. Warcaster is a good choice for a feat if you want it, but it isn't as necessary. From my opinion, I would go with Half-Elf for the bonus Cha and then you don't need to worry about a feat until you are further along and see how your character plays.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

- V human 8str 15dex 14con 10int 10wis 16cha with moderately armored feat +1dex (16 total) or swap to 14dex 16con?

I'd go with this option, with 14 Dex 15 Con and take Resilient (Con) for the bump to 16 and proficiency in Con saves. Alternately, if other books are available, yuan-ti purebloods are very strong, with two cantrips, +Cha, immunity to poison, advantage on a big group of saving throws and a 2nd level spell once every long rest. They're in Volo's.

One spell that should be on your list is healing word. Bonus action emergency healing is great, especially when it's not competing for space with other bonus action options.

[dok]

Thank you for your replies!

[JeffreyGator]

You might consider vhuman with the prodigy feat for another skill/tool/language and +1 stat.

This evens out the half-elf and vhuman stats/skills.

1/2 elf still has another +1 stat and darkvision vs extra skill and tool and extra expertise.
(The extra expertise sells this for me)

You can then get
str 8 dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 12 cha 16

I would take expertise in perception at level 1 and six other skills.

You then get 3 more skills at level 3 and two more expertise!

For control your things are going to be cutting words and vicious mockery.

I found some control out of minor illusion as well early on.

If you weren't justifiably opposed to multi-classing, a couple levels of hexblade warlock gives you better armor options and a lot more damage potential and more cantrips.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I don't think it's worth spending a feat on extra skill proficiencies - Jack of All Trades gets you half proficiency to those. In a skill-focused campaign I'd rather spend the feat on something like Actor that gives additional support to skills you're already good at.

[CTurbo]

The Lore Bard is not a very feat dependent class so you could get by just bumping Cha and Dex or Con throughout. I would definitely max Cha asap.

I find Half-Elf superior to Vhuman for the most part from level 4 on out for the Darkvision, extra skill, and higher stats.

That being said, there ARE feats that would help you out a lot.

Moderately Armored IS a good feat to take at level 1 for a Lore Bard.
16 Dex, 14 Con, and Leather armor = 14AC
14 Dex, 16 Con, and Chain Shirt + Shield = 17AC and 1 more hp per level.

That is a lot for 1 feat IMO. Plus with that feat, you can ignore Dex forever. You'll want to bump it if stuck with Light Armor.

Magic Initiate is good for a close range attack cantrip and a better ranged attack cantrip. Yes you don't want to be anywhere near melee but there are still going to be times when somebody gets to you. I don't recommend getting Booming Blade unless you also take Mobile at some point so you can hit and run off. This also gets you the great Find Familiar which is great for every character and the party in general.

Alert and Lucky are helpful for obvious reasons, but neither are must haves.

I wouldn't bother with Warcaster or Res(Con) unless you really think you're going to be relying on Concentration spells.



So I would take vhuman if you want Moderately Armored to start, but Half-Elf under every other circumstance.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I wouldn't bother with Warcaster or Res(Con) unless you really think you're going to be relying on Concentration spells.

Resilient (Con) gets you +1 Con and proficiency. Concentration spells are pretty prevalent in the bard list and as magical secrets; healing spirit, aura of vitality, bestow curse, confusion, faerie fire, suggestion, fear, heat metal, hideous laughter, irresistible dance, phantasmal force... It's a long list. Nearly every AE effect or battlefield control spell you have is concentration. It might not be a feat you need to take at 1 or 4, but getting a bonus to concentration checks is I think mandatory for most bards.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You might be able to save a feat by picking a High Elf if you can satisfy yourself with a good enough Wizard cantrip, probably something that makes a damaging attack.

Bards are short on attack cantrips besides the Vicious Mockery standby (which is probably better than its reputation given the disadvantage and all)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

You might be able to save a feat by picking a High Elf if you can satisfy yourself with a good enough Wizard cantrip, probably something that makes a damaging attack.

Bards are short on attack cantrips besides the Vicious Mockery standby (which is probably better than its reputation given the disadvantage and all)

Yuan-ti! Poison spray isn't the best damaging cantrip since many things have high Con saves or poison resistance/immunity and the range is short, but it's a d12 with a rider. if you don't like yuan-ti, which is fair as they're a bit situational and a bit OP, the variant eladrin from UA get +1 Cha, a bonus action teleport and either fire bolt or chill touch. Obviously both are more situational than high elves, but if either are available I think they're inarguably superior to high elves.

[sophontteks]

Not worth a feat for a damage cantrip. Mockery is an underestimated cantrip. Forcing disadvantage is a big deal and insulting enemies is really fun.

Picking high elf would reduce your CHA, which is crippling your spellcasting. And you are a primary caster. Any race with CHA buff is good.

I wouldn't multiclass either unless it was for a rogue level at level 1. Bards are strong, really strong. They just don't dps/tank. You can take levels in another class and do more damage, but you'll be crippling your main role by setting yourself back on spells. At level 6 and 10 you get two spells from any spellbook. Don't push that back.

[GoodmanDL]

I would suggest going straight bard and maxing Charisma. You will feel like you don't do a lot of direct damage and want to find a way to get some. Resist that temptation.

It distracts from what you excel at. Your magic will make your friends superheroes and your enemies weak like kittens. The damage will eventually take care of itself. Your friends will feel important, and you will have cool stories to tell. It won't occur to people that you are the most dangerous...

At low levels you might hurt for AC. At higher levels you won't need it too much. If you do want feats Inspiring Leader can be good for you. It's value increases if your party has 4 or 5 other people.

[lilika]

I would suggest going straight bard and maxing Charisma. You will feel like you don't do a lot of direct damage and want to find a way to get some. Resist that temptation.

It distracts from what you excel at. Your magic will make your friends superheroes and your enemies weak like kittens. The damage will eventually take care of itself. Your friends will feel important, and you will have cool stories to tell. It won't occur to people that you are the most dangerous...

At low levels you might hurt for AC. At higher levels you won't need it too much. If you do want feats Inspiring Leader can be good for you. It's value increases if your party has 4 or 5 other people.

I made a variant human Lore Bard a few campaigns ago and I went with Inspiring leader and it was simply awesome. Also I mainly used fairy fire and just let the party go wild (prolly the most damaging spell if your party about the attacks and damage). I would hang in the back and vicious mockery when i had nothing better to do and cutting words when any hit seemed like it barely hit someone (the normal use of bardic inspiration of adding it hit or save is prolly just as good if giving to the right character, but cutting words allows you to save them and only use them when needed). I later took calm emotions to shut down any attempt at charming or dominating my allies. I took Aid and Counter Spell at lvl 6, hypnotic pattern at 5 and basically was an enabler and carebear for the party. This Lore Bard is probably the most powerful character that I every played, while i did almost 0 damage myself.

[CTurbo]

I forgot all about Inspiring Leader! It's an excellent choice for a Bard.

[dok]

Thank you everyone for your help. I am going to give half elf a shot. The 16 con moderately armored human is really appealing due to its added durability, but I will trust in my meatshields. That was good advice from many people to forget about doing damage, also looking at causing opponents to have disadvantage as control. I hadn’t looked at it that way but it seems more powerful now. Worst case maybe I will grab a short bow and if desperate plink out a few arrows. It is still a ways away but I am intrigued at telekinesis for a lvl6 magical secrets pick. It seems since it’s a skill check vs skill check I could use cutting words to debuff the opposed check and have a really high chance of success...I’m just not sure if it’s worth it though. Are there other really big must haves? I don’t really want to but the other pick will almost definitely need to be counterspell, one of the main villains is apparently a caster. Thanks again for all the thoughts and your time!

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Thank you everyone for your help. I am going to give half elf a shot. The 16 con moderately armored human is really appealing due to its added durability, but I will trust in my meatshields. That was good advice from many people to forget about doing damage, also looking at causing opponents to have disadvantage as control. I hadn’t looked at it that way but it seems more powerful now. Worst case maybe I will grab a short bow and if desperate plink out a few arrows. It is still a ways away but I am intrigued at telekinesis for a lvl6 magical secrets pick. It seems since it’s a skill check vs skill check I could use cutting words to debuff the opposed check and have a really high chance of success...I’m just not sure if it’s worth it though. Are there other really big must haves? I don’t really want to but the other pick will almost definitely need to be counterspell, one of the main villains is apparently a caster. Thanks again for all the thoughts and your time!

You can also add Jack of All Trades to both telekinesis and counterspell.

[Nuclear]

My personal opinion about playing as a Lore Bard is that if you want to go the AC heavy build, you want it via a multiclass into cleric, not via a feat. For this you may need to drop a bit of DEX and a tiny bit of CON, to get the 13 WIS needed, but once again, if you are in medium/heavy armor you dont really need a super high DEX modifier. Also WIS is good, because save-or-suck spells that hit WIS are nasty.

The justification is as follows, by multiclassing into 1 level of cleric, you gain proficiency in medium, heavy and shields, while also gaining access to the entirety of the cleric's lvl 1 spell book (VERY useful since you dont need to take healing word (yes, I know it heals a bit less because it would be a cleric spell, but you arent the primary healer. It is mostly a supplement to healing, not a replacement), and you gain a lot of nice buffs like Guidance or Bless that dont rely on having a high WIS. Bards are not really about BIG PHAT lvl X spells that end fights. Bards are really more about a lot of smaller spells and buffs that tip the scales in your favor. A bigger toolkit IMHO is more worth than having dat sick Polymorph. (Yes I know you have to wait 1 level for the Magical Secrets, but eh, I rather have access to more cantrips and a bunch of lvl 1 support spells than 2 lvl 3 spells)

More importantly it frees up a feat. And with Warcaster setting the bar high, it really isnt worth wasting the feat on medium armor + shields. Since you are a CC + buff/debuff bard, a lot of your spells will be concentration, warcaster is awesome for that. If you are going the AC build with a shield, Warcaster is basically a necessity. Otherwise you would have to keep your weapon stowed for the battle until you get attacked, since your other hand is tied up by a shield. And that can be nasty. Not to mention warcaster lets you abuse Dissonant Whispers -> (Opp attack) Vicious Mockery to get someone out of your face.

In short, bard without warcaster + shield = bad. If you want to be somewhat survivable, use light armor, it can get you up to 15 AC, which aint too bad for someone in the back line. Medium only gets you 16 if I am not wrong.

I personally feel v human is one of the better bard races, because getting a feat at lvl 1 is incredible. And you can make up for slightly weaker char stat by taking ability scores from then on.

If you choose to go down the standard backline lore bard instead, other good feats include

- Alert - Going first as bard is always very VERY good, and you will almost always go first with Alert + your high Dex. You can throw out stuff like Enhance Ability + Bardic Inspiration and watch your Fighter or Rogue go to town, or initiate with Faerie fire.

- Inspiring Leader - Free HP. Seriously, FREE HP.

- Lucky - Considering how you ideally shouldnt be getting attacked, Lucky is gonna save just as much as medium armor.

[dok]

You can also add Jack of All Trades to both telekinesis and counterspell.

Oh nice, good point. Are there other really good spells for the lvl6 magical secrets I should be considering? As I said I think one pick will have to go to counterspell.

[sophontteks]

Oh nice, good point. Are there other really good spells for the lvl6 magical secrets I should be considering? As I said I think one pick will have to go to counterspell.
It also increases your initiative.

Look into the ranger and paladin lines. These spells are generally stronger then most other spells at their level because rangers and paladins have a slower spell progression. Find steed and find greater steed come to mind as a couple really cool options.

I can't answer your question directly though, as I am a glamour bard :smallcool:

[Nuclear]

Oh nice, good point. Are there other really good spells for the lvl6 magical secrets I should be considering? As I said I think one pick will have to go to counterspell.

Personally I find it a matter of taste and preference. Magical secrets is where you can go wild and pick something you like that is completely different from what your current role is.

As mentioned, paladin and warlock spells are great due to their slightly stronger power, but if needed you can also look at cleric spells. I personally roll revivify + counterspell for my lvl 6 magical secrets. But then again I play a 20 AC bard that can get in range to revive my fighter if she goes down.

Tbh you cant go wrong with magical secrets.

[dok]

Personally I find it a matter of taste and preference. Magical secrets is where you can go wild and pick something you like that is completely different from what your current role is.

As mentioned, paladin and warlock spells are great due to their slightly stronger power, but if needed you can also look at cleric spells. I personally roll revivify + counterspell for my lvl 6 magical secrets. But then again I play a 20 AC bard that can get in range to revive my fighter if she goes down.

Tbh you cant go wrong with magical secrets.

Thanks, that is a nice way to hear someone put it. Will have to do some digging around!

[KnotaGuru]

Thanks, that is a nice way to hear someone put it. Will have to do some digging around!

Your party is missing an arcane caster now that your wizard died, so that job falls to your bard. At level 6 I'd get counterspell for sure, then any other spell you like. You already have hypnotic pattern which can end encounters, especially if you get your hands on an instrument of the bards, that gives enemies disadvantage to charm spells you cast.

At level 10, wall of force is amazing. You can do so much with it. Other than that, the bard spell list is full of concentration spells, so maybe something that doesn't need concentration, like spiritual weapon.

[GoodmanDL]

It's far away, and I said don't worry about damage, but Destructive Wave is a good L10 pick. It has a huge area, doesn't hit allies, and knocks targets down.

for L3, I took Counterspell. If your party has no wizard, you may find value in Fireball. As others have suggested, it's a good place to pick something that doesn't use concentration.

[dok]

So I am curious about how worth it it is to set yourself up for resilient con later? As half elf I have 8str 16dex 14con 10int 12wis 16cha. I could get con to 15 by dropping wis to 10, but jack of all trades doesn't apply to saving throws right? Seems nice to keep the positive wis modifier. I could also drop dex to 14 and put con to 15 and then str to 10 or int to 12, but with light armor I feel like I want that dex? Or put wis to 13 and maybe multi into cleric for armor and forget about dex? I maybe would be ok branching into cleric at lvl 7 but I think it might be a mistake delaying magical secrets for the campaign I am in. Plus I am probably maxing cha first so I wouldn't be picking resilient con up until lvl 12 if we even make it that far...maybe not worth planning for at all? Or just take it if I get lvl 12 and be ok with an odd con score after I take it? I am sort of feeling maybe just take it and have an odd con score and keep my other stats as original might be my best option, but I am not confident of that.

For spells I am thinking as a lvl4 bard
cantrips: minor illusion / prestidigitation / vicious mockery
1st lvl: faerie fire / hideous laughter / dissonant whispers / thunderwave or healing word
2nd lvl: suggestion / heat metal / invis

I was thinking thunderwave in case I need it, but as a con save maybe its not really worth it? Also I am not a huge fan of getting a spell I may never use. I can see using healing word even though I am in a group with a paladin and cleric. Any other spells I should really consider swapping in? I am also thinking about blindness / deafness instead of invis but I'm not sure, I really like how you can use higher slots on invis if needed. Once again I appreciate all the ideas from everyone.

[dok]

I guess also a mechanics question with healing word, if someone is knocked unconscious to 0 hp and I cast it on them, will they gain those hit points and become conscious or just stabilize at 0 hp and stay unconscious?

[nickl_2000]

I guess also a mechanics question with healing word, if someone is knocked unconscious to 0 hp and I cast it on them, will they gain those hit points and become conscious or just stabilize at 0 hp and stay unconscious?

They regain consciousness and can get back up and fight more.

[dok]

They regain consciousness and can get back up and fight more.

I guess there is probably more value in it then thunderwave which I saw as an emergency plan in case I start getting beat up. Also it’s a bonus action spell...

[nickl_2000]

I guess there is probably more value in it then thunderwave which I saw as an emergency plan in case I start getting beat up. Also it’s a bonus action spell...

Healing Word is an amazing spell for that exact reason. You can use it from a distance and cast it as a bonus action.

[sophontteks]

I'd keep a positive wisdom for insight and perception. But this question your asking isn't so simple because it has a lot to do with what kind of campaign you are playing. If you do nothing but combat, wisdom isn't worth it just for saves. Conversely con doesn't offer much outside of combat while insight and perception happen to be pretty common and important skills that are based on wisdom.


I think most people tend to favour what makes their character best in combat situations and would say con is the obvious choice. But, well, I'll just post a bit about my Glamour bard to show an alternative...

My character has 12 con and 14 wisdom. He has expertise in Persuasion and Insight.
In a fight that 14 wisdom isn't doing much for me. I'm squishy, have low AC, and I'm apt to fail concentration checks. But outside a fight that heavy bonus to insight allows me to consistently reveal the intentions of any NPC we come across and I can use that information to my advantage in persuasion checks. I use enhance ability eagles splendor whenever I know a social encounter is coming up for advantage on all cha checks too.

I have ended lethal encounters on my own with these two skills alone. I mean really, it saved us from being outright killed when one of us were caught stealing from a powerful caster NPC. No amount of constitution was going to save us if that went to combat.

I also use spells like minor illusion, Silent Image, and suggestion to set up encounters favourably. I've given the team several surprise rounds by deceiving the enemy with an illusion. I would bait the enemy out of hiding, or trick the enemy into running through everyone's readied actions. With the fight set up in our favour right from the start I've already done all the heavy lifting in the control role.

In actual combat, however, I depend on them to carry me and keep me safe while I continue to mold the battlefield in a way that favours them.

This is the kind of stuff outlined in the following two guides by Treeankmonk and Specter:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490505-The-Social-God-A-guide-to-an-optimized-party-face
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?450158-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-5e

How much mileage you'll get out of this depends on the campaign, your DM, and your own wits. But it does offer a really fun and unique way to play that can really bolster the power of your team.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So I am curious about how worth it it is to set yourself up for resilient con later? As half elf I have 8str 16dex 14con 10int 12wis 16cha. I could get con to 15 by dropping wis to 10, but jack of all trades doesn't apply to saving throws right? Seems nice to keep the positive wis modifier. I could also drop dex to 14 and put con to 15 and then str to 10 or int to 12, but with light armor I feel like I want that dex? Or put wis to 13 and maybe multi into cleric for armor and forget about dex? I maybe would be ok branching into cleric at lvl 7 but I think it might be a mistake delaying magical secrets for the campaign I am in. Plus I am probably maxing cha first so I wouldn't be picking resilient con up until lvl 12 if we even make it that far...maybe not worth planning for at all? Or just take it if I get lvl 12 and be ok with an odd con score after I take it? I am sort of feeling maybe just take it and have an odd con score and keep my other stats as original might be my best option, but I am not confident of that.

For spells I am thinking as a lvl4 bard
cantrips: minor illusion / prestidigitation / vicious mockery
1st lvl: faerie fire / hideous laughter / dissonant whispers / thunderwave or healing word
2nd lvl: suggestion / heat metal / invis

I was thinking thunderwave in case I need it, but as a con save maybe its not really worth it? Also I am not a huge fan of getting a spell I may never use. I can see using healing word even though I am in a group with a paladin and cleric. Any other spells I should really consider swapping in? I am also thinking about blindness / deafness instead of invis but I'm not sure, I really like how you can use higher slots on invis if needed. Once again I appreciate all the ideas from everyone.

Thunderwave and Shatter have served my Bard well.

They do SOME damage in almost all circumstances.

Doubling up on AOE's with the Wizard is neat teamwork.

Shatter knocking a bad guy out of melee with you is handy.

Every so often you drop Shatter or even Thunderwave on a group and do a ton of damage.

The noise is a +/-. They can be used to alert the rest of your party you are in combat if the group was divided.

To me they are very Bardie. They aren't the absolute best AOE spells but they're pretty darned good and Bards are supposed to be pretty darned good at everything.



To me the question was Hideous Laughter vs Dissonant Whispers. Both are great spells but are similar IMO. They have the same Wisdom save and are both single target. I picked Dissonant Whispers because it the damage it gives and the opportunity attacks it provokes when an enemy flees outweighed the chance Hideous Laughter will go on more than one round. For me anyway.



On the Healing Word tangent....
Healing Word is Amazing.

Its a bonus action so you can still attack.

Its ranged so you don't need to run over and touch some one.

Its a Level 1 spell!

To me there is no difference at mid levels between having 6 hit points and 12. If the bad guy hits you, you are probably going back down. So I don't value a D8+CHA bonus healing spell much more than Healing Word.

Do note, you can not cast Healing Word as a Bonus Action and a leveled spell as an Action in the same turn. If you cast Healing Word you can only use a Cantrip as an Action. It makes me think snagging an Eldritch Blast like cantrip via a Feat or Magical Secrets or a damaging Wizard Cantrip via High Elf background might be worth it. Vicious Mockery is kinda cool if underrated though (did I say that earlier?).


Thanks for reading my wordy opinions!

[sophontteks]

I picked both hideous laughter and dissonant whispers. I've used them both about equally so far. While they have the same saves, they seem to be best in very different circumstances. When the enemy was beside a wall, whispers wouldn't make them move away, so it was useless, but if Hideous laughter hits its a garunteed 2 round cc unless a teammate hits them (The check is at the end of their turn, so they lose their turn even if they pass the check.). Once the creature passes the check, its still prone and the party is free to wail on him before he can get up.

Laughter also has some use out of combat. Its not immediately provoking combat like whispers is.

I picked both over shatter but it is a hard choice indeed!

[nickl_2000]

Most effective (and horrible) use of Tasha's Hidious Laughter I've ever used. A bad guy was attempting to escape by swimming away from the group. I dropped a tasha's on him causing him go prone and incapacitated (thus no longer swimming). He sunk immediately and drowned almost instantly due to laughing so hard underwater.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Most effective (and horrible) use of Tasha's Hidious Laughter I've ever used. A bad guy was attempting to escape by swimming away from the group. I dropped a tasha's on him causing him go prone and incapacitated (thus no longer swimming). He sunk immediately and drowned almost instantly due to laughing so hard underwater.

That is cold!

I like it :)

[dok]

Thunderwave and Shatter have served my Bard well.

They do SOME damage in almost all circumstances.

Doubling up on AOE's with the Wizard is neat teamwork.

Shatter knocking a bad guy out of melee with you is handy.

Every so often you drop Shatter or even Thunderwave on a group and do a ton of damage.

The noise is a +/-. They can be used to alert the rest of your party you are in combat if the group was divided.

To me they are very Bardie. They aren't the absolute best AOE spells but they're pretty darned good and Bards are supposed to be pretty darned good at everything.



To me the question was Hideous Laughter vs Dissonant Whispers. Both are great spells but are similar IMO. They have the same Wisdom save and are both single target. I picked Dissonant Whispers because it the damage it gives and the opportunity attacks it provokes when an enemy flees outweighed the chance Hideous Laughter will go on more than one round. For me anyway.



On the Healing Word tangent....
Healing Word is Amazing.

Its a bonus action so you can still attack.

Its ranged so you don't need to run over and touch some one.

Its a Level 1 spell!

To me there is no difference at mid levels between having 6 hit points and 12. If the bad guy hits you, you are probably going back down. So I don't value a D8+CHA bonus healing spell much more than Healing Word.

Do note, you can not cast Healing Word as a Bonus Action and a leveled spell as an Action in the same turn. If you cast Healing Word you can only use a Cantrip as an Action. It makes me think snagging an Eldritch Blast like cantrip via a Feat or Magical Secrets or a damaging Wizard Cantrip via High Elf background might be worth it. Vicious Mockery is kinda cool if underrated though (did I say that earlier?).


Thanks for reading my wordy opinions!

What do you think about shatter vs heat metal? I am pretty set on suggestion but I am not totally wed to heat metal and invisibility. It seems like there is some good utility and shenanigans you can get out of heat metal.

[Nuclear]

What do you think about shatter vs heat metal? I am pretty set on suggestion but I am not totally wed to heat metal and invisibility. It seems like there is some good utility and shenanigans you can get out of heat metal.

Unless your party severely lacks AoE damage and no one in your party has a crossbow/longbow, shatter is going to be less versatile than Heat Metal.


While it sounds like Heat Metal might be situational and ineffective against non armored enemies, remember, you can always have your archer buy arrows with metal arrowheads. So literally anyone that got hit by one of your archer's arrows is now a viable Heat Metal target. Now it has to make a Con check to avoid disadvantage, and then figure out a way of pulling out the arrow (which is going to cost an action. This one is an easy sell to the DM). Some enemies might not even be able to pull out the arrow, e.g. if it struck them in the back, where they cannot physically reach it.

So effectively you have accomplished one or more of the following

- Forced the enemy to skip their next turn
- Drop their shield/sword
- Take disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks (<- With cutting words, you can almost certainly guarantee a failed roll with this)
- Take 2d8 damage, possibly continuously for multiple turns.

The only disadvantage is that it is concentration, and thus will break whatever spell you are currently concentrating on, but for such a powerful effect I would say it is worth it.

It isnt limited to arrows either. Any thrown weapon that connects with the enemy is gonna be a viable Heat Metal target. A polearm is also a good conduit, since most polearms have only a metal blade at the tip and the shaft is wood, which wont be affected by the spell (Thus your ally is fine).

Shatter doesnt debuff the enemy, Heat Metal does. And as a CC Bard debuffs is going to be far more important than damage. Not to mention that makes it scale better.

[GoodmanDL]

While it sounds like Heat Metal might be situational and ineffective against non armored enemies, remember, you can always have your archer buy arrows with metal arrowheads. So literally anyone that got hit by one of your archer's arrows is now a viable Heat Metal target.

That is a bit of a stretch. You cannot count on a DM ruling that "I hit him with an arrow, it's stuck in him, it counts for heat metal" is applicable.

Heat Metal is campaign dependent. If you think you may face armor wearing foes, it's great. It will wreck people. If you are hunting dragons, then less so. I got a lot of mileage from it at low levels, and less at high levels. More than I ever got from Thunderwave. When I was in a position where casting Thunderwave would work, the problem was I was in the wrong position, and the answer was to get out, not cast Thunderwave.

Might be candidate for a spell you take early and swap out later.

[dok]

That is a bit of a stretch. You cannot count on a DM ruling that "I hit him with an arrow, it's stuck in him, it counts for heat metal" is applicable.

Heat Metal is campaign dependent. If you think you may face armor wearing foes, it's great. It will wreck people. If you are hunting dragons, then less so. I got a lot of mileage from it at low levels, and less at high levels. More than I ever got from Thunderwave. When I was in a position where casting Thunderwave would work, the problem was I was in the wrong position, and the answer was to get out, not cast Thunderwave.

Might be candidate for a spell you take early and swap out later.

Yeah I have started to think that may be the case with thunder wave. I guess if you were a valor bard it could be different... For heat metal I’m not sure how many armored foes we will fight but most big bad guys are wielding weapons. Not until now did I think about the fact that some weapons have wooden handles, but I was thinking I could make them drop their weapons to greatly reduce their damage output. I have become kind of sold on shatter, especially as we have basically no other aoe, so I could maybe swap heat metal for invis? I know invis would probably be handy.

[sophontteks]

Yeah I have started to think that may be the case with thunder wave. I guess if you were a valor bard it could be different... For heat metal I’m not sure how many armored foes we will fight but most big bad guys are wielding weapons. Not until now did I think about the fact that some weapons have wooden handles, but I was thinking I could make them drop their weapons to greatly reduce their damage output. I have become kind of sold on shatter, especially as we have basically no other aoe, so I could maybe swap heat metal for invis? I know invis would probably be handy.
Invisibility is handy, but in order to stretch my limited spell slots as far as they will go, I took enhance ability instead. It is not invisibility, but Cats Grace would give advantage to all stealth checks. Its not as good, but I think it may be good enough for many situations.

[Nuclear]

That is a bit of a stretch. You cannot count on a DM ruling that "I hit him with an arrow, it's stuck in him, it counts for heat metal" is applicable.

Heat Metal is campaign dependent. If you think you may face armor wearing foes, it's great. It will wreck people. If you are hunting dragons, then less so. I got a lot of mileage from it at low levels, and less at high levels. More than I ever got from Thunderwave. When I was in a position where casting Thunderwave would work, the problem was I was in the wrong position, and the answer was to get out, not cast Thunderwave.

Might be candidate for a spell you take early and swap out later.

I suppose it definitely is going to be slightly DM dependent, but according to RAW you can heat any metal within LoS. So heating a metal arrow is perfectly within the rules. Just like how True Polymorphing an ally into an Ancient Brass Dragon is also perfectly within the rules. Now of course that may require you to have arrows with some metal coating so you can see the metal after the arrow embeds itself in an enemy.

Arguing from a RAI perspective, lets think about it from a gameplay perspective. Your bard isnt doing anything different, he just happens to be concentrating on a different piece of metal than an suit of armor or a sword. If it was truly meant to be used only on armor or weapons, the wording would have been so, not "any piece of metal".

I would say that this is using heat metal as its original intention, and is just a creative way of doing it without attempting to game the system at all.

And that is why I believe heat metal is not a situational spell that is campaign dependent. When the wording om the spell gives you carte blance as its targeting, there are always situations where you can use it in combination with help from your allies.

Teamwork makes the dream work after all.

[Snivlem]

Actually it dosent say "any piece of metal", the text is much more vague. The spell also specifies you have to see the metal object, you probably wont with an arrow head stuck in their body

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I suppose it definitely is going to be slightly DM dependent, but according to RAW you can heat any metal within LoS. So heating a metal arrow is perfectly within the rules.

Sure, you can heat the arrow. What you definitely can't count on is a DM ruling that heating an arrow benefits you. If you heat the arrow before it's fired, it damages the player who's firing it. And if you heat it after it does damage, there's no guarantee it does anything at all; hit points are abstract, and a hit that does damage doesn't mean there's an arrow sticking out of a target's knee.

You'd almost be better off carrying some toy - a loop of flexible metal, like an oversized necklace, maybe? - that you could try to throw or place on the target's body to use as a heat metal target. Maybe you could use your rogue's Fast Hands feature for this.

[sophontteks]

Yeah thats my problem with heat metal. Its a great spell, but I felt that in the campaign I am playing it may not come up enough vs. other options. But, even then, its a great spell well worth the conditional. My character happens to focus very heavy on illusions and enchantments anyway, so it didn't fit him thematically anyway.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

What do you think about shatter vs heat metal? I am pretty set on suggestion but I am not totally wed to heat metal and invisibility. It seems like there is some good utility and shenanigans you can get out of heat metal.

Sounds like I've had a similar experience to those above. i kicked some butt with heat metal over a two or three session period back last summer. We've fought demons and people who must be allergic to armor since!

Its kinda neat how for a Bard these spells require soo much planning since we can only change so often. If you have a Druid around who can do it I would not.

Far as Shatter vs Heat Metal, not too many bad guys we've come across have been immune to Thunder damage and even people in armor get hurt by Shatter. Sure Shatter gives away quite loudly that a fight is going on. That can be good or bad depending on your tactics though.

[dok]

So first session done, bards are so much fun to play getting to be skill monkey and participating in social stuff with the high charisma. I ended up dropping invis so my lvl2 spells are suggestion, heat metal, and shatter. I only ended up casting one dissonant whispers and some vicious mockery’s. Also completely (embarrassingly) forgot to use my inspiration / cutting words..something to work on, remembering such a powerful skill, derp. All in all great class...really appreciate everyone’s input and thoughts!