Spellcasting 2 or 1?

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I have finished a high level build that uses ultimate magus. Meaning 2 caster base classes. Spontaneous and prepared. Would it be better to pump my main the wizard past 20. Or to get both classes to 20 ?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have finished a high level build that uses ultimate magus. Meaning 2 caster base classes. Spontaneous and prepared. Would it be better to pump my main the wizard past 20. Or to get both classes to 20 ?Aside from Epic Spellcasting and caster level, there's really not much point to having your spellcasting classes going past 20, and it's not like you can't pump your CL to well beyond what your class level is (see: Practiced Spellcaster, for one), so I suggest going 20 in both classes and taking something like Io7V (the most useful PrC for epic defense in the whole game outside of spellcasting itself) to keep yourself alive.

[Crake]

Once you go into epic levels you can actually continue to progress ultimate magus beyond 10. I have a 28 level build somewhere that is basically sorc/wiz/UM 10/prestige class 5 to geto to 20, then 8 more levels of epic ultimate magus, which ended up with, I believe, 20/20 casting, and a CL of 31 for both. It also came with versatile spellcaster to let you use your sorc spell slots to spontaneous cast your wizard spells at a cost of 2 spell slots 1 spell level lower, which made it a very dangerous combination.

The complete build was: wizard 3/sorc2 with practised spellcaster into sorc to let ultimate magus put all it's single levels into wizard, then UM10, followed by a 5 level preistge class of your choice into sorcer, along with practised spellcaster wizard, then 8 more levels of UM. At level 28 you have level 20 casting in both, with +4 CL from practised spellcaster for CL24, and then ultimate magus' arcane spellpower scales to +7 by that level, for a final CL of 31 on both sides.

The build itself was also an elven generalist wizard with collegiate wizard for 5 spells known per level, but thats all optional.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take a dip in spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat. Double your CL; at epic, you're pretty much gaining extra levels in your casting classes, since that's about all you gain for taking epic levels in most casting base classes -- that, and feats, but gaining class abilities is generally superior to most feats, even epic ones. Then start taking levels in some other classes, such as bard/sublime chord, to boost that even higher.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Class Layout is as follows
Factotum
Wizard
Human Paragon x 3
Sorcerer
Master Specialist
Ultimate Magus x 2
MindBender
Ultimate Magus x 6
Fate Spinner x3
Master Specialist x 4
Ultimate magus x 2
Effigy Master x 5
Archmage
Master Specialist x 5
ArchMage

[Fouredged Sword]

Any reason you can't exchange factotum for spellthief 1? It would make your CL ether your HD or much higher than your HD based on your reading of the masterspellthief feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually, exchange human paragon for spellthief, as taking the Able Learner feat and factotum means there's not much point to taking human paragon.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Im going Necropoltin meaning all HD is 12. (dm wants us taking full)
Human paragon is for the bonus feat as well as the +2 which im putting into INT to bump me higher.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Okay, so we want both wizard and sorcerer progression to be pretty high, but there's not much point in going epic with either class, since all you gain at that point is caster levels and a few feats, which can be emulated easily enough in other ways. Spellthief 1 with the Master Spellthief feat, for instance, can massively inflate your caster level, especially with dual-casting classes added into the mix. And since we're starting in epic, we can take a class progression that wouldn't make nearly as much sense while playing manually.

So how about the following:

1.) Factotum 1 (with Able Learner) essentially grants all skills as class skills, as well as some Int-based benefits
2-4.) Specialist wizard 3 (preferably conjurer with abrupt jaunt, from PHB II, p70) grants enough spellcasting to enter master specialist, as well as a very powerful defensive immediate action teleport +Int times per day.
5-8.) Master specialist 4 (advancing wizard, of course) grants you minor esoterica and a few bonus feats, which can be taken as-is or swapped out via the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?119456-What-is-a-quot-Chaos-Shuffle-quot).
9.) Sorcerer 1 for spontaneous casting
10.) Spellsinger 1 (from Races of Faerun and advancing sorcerer casting) to gain bardic music to qualify for sublime chord
10.) Bard 1 to qualify for sublime chord
11.) Mindbender 1 (advancing wizard) for telepathy
12.) Spellthief 1 with Master Specialist to grant all of your caster classes a really good boost
13-14.) Sublime chord 2 (advancing sorcerer casting) to gain higher level spells for your spontaneous casting
15-24.) Ultimate magus 10 (advancing wizard and sublime chord casting) for ultimate cosmic power, with most boosts going toward sublime chord
25-31.) Initiate of the sevenfold veil 7 (advancing sorcerer) for extreme defenses against epic threats (important for survival at this level); I think this is probably more important than most other things you could get, as it keeps you alive incredibly well, when combined with Abrupt Jaunt and judicious use of a tinfoil hat (32-33.) Archmage 2[/B] (advancing wizard) for the high arcana goodness
34+.) Effigy master (advancing wizard) because you wanted it

Fatespinner really isn't terribly important, as the effects can be emulated via spells and magic items, or outright obviated via Io7V and the tinfoil hat (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1ksmnx/35the_ubiquitous_wizard_hat_and_its_true_function/) (though you ought to make the hat out of riverine or adamantine instead of cloth, so it protects against things like raging barbarians and the like. Take a talking familiar and set it to hold its action to call out your hat's command word to protect you if anything gets too close for comfort.) If you want rerolls, check out ways to get them here: [url]http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?139329-Rerolls

If you want lots of Intelligence, try casting polymorph any object on yourself twice, so you gain the effect permanently. Go after a race with ridiculous base Int, like sarrukh (Int 30), from Serpent Kingdoms. And if you don't want to change your physical form, you could always use magic jar to swap bodies with someone or something else, PAO yourself, and then dismiss magic jar.

[edit] You could go bard instead of spellsinger, if you wanted. Would save you a feat, and, honestly, wouldn't do much to negatively affect you. Huh. Actually, the more I think about it, the better bard becomes. Go bard instead of spellsinger, unless you really like spellsinger and Improved Countersong.

[edit 2] If you're going necropolitan, take the Human Blood or Human Heritage feat. That, or Otherworldly. Then you count as humanoid (human) or outsider, respectively, and you are no longer subject to effects that screw over undead, like turning or hide from undead. You still gain the d12 HD, though, and all the immunities.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Dang. That would work for the build and be a fuctional set up for protections.

the issue with Human Blood or Human Heritage feat.

first one is a Homebrew unless my google fu is weak.
Second wouldnt work for me.

They both req Level 1 feat taking. Which i cant be a necroplitan at 1. Minimum is at 3 (the prefered route) as anything past that would of have meant you lost 500 exp addtional.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dang. That would work for the build and be a functional set up for protections.

the issue with Human Blood or Human Heritage feat.

first one is a Homebrew unless my google fu is weak.
Second wouldnt work for me.

They both req Level 1 feat taking. Which i cant be a necroplitan at 1. Minimum is at 3 (the prefered route) as anything past that would of have meant you lost 500 exp addtional.Human Blood is from Dragon Magazine #324. And you can be a human with Human Blood and/or Human Heritage. Thing is, once you become undead, your type (subtype) counts as humanoid (human) despite your actual type, so you can thumb your nose at anyone who wants to treat you as undead when you don't want to be. (Human Blood also grants +1 skill point per level, as well.)

[edit] More info on the tinfoil hat: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat Ignore the weirdos.

[edit 2] You could make this even more insane if instead of sorcerer/sublime chord you had beguiler/rainbow servant 10.

Seriously, all the cleric spells all the time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Note that due to Master Spellthief, all of the arcane spellcasting levels from all classes stack with each other to determine arcane caster levels. This means that ultimate magus gives +17 caster levels out of its 10 levels, with an additional +4 per arcane casting class you've got. Yes, that means that if you have four arcane casting classes, you gain +16 CLs out of it. Likewise, an orange ioun stone gains +1 CL per arcane class you have; in the above example, you'd gain +4 out of it. Abuse this mercilessly by multiclassing a bunch when you level up post-epic.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Tin Hat sounds and reads awesome I'm half tempted to try it out lol.

For the Incantatrix. I cant swing it. No ferum and No Ebberon stuff as well as no dragon mags. The dragon compendium book is okay tho.

And sadly Im Lawful Evil no no rainbow fun for me. : (

If i post my build would you look at it and point out holes/flaws?

Game is Evil campaign where apparently we need to kill one of the PC's. (whos a demi deity) and apparently the other gods or god (not sure) doesn't like the new "uprising" god near there turf.

Im mostly trying to make myself "caster" flexible. and sorcerer lets me get things like wings of cover and such shanghais

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For the Incantatrix. I cant swing it. No ferum Faerun and No Ebberon stuff as well as no dragon mags. The dragon compendium book is okay tho. Incantatrix? Did someone say something about incantatrix? Or are you referring to initiate of the sevenfold veil? That's from Complete Arcane.


And sadly Im Lawful Evil no no rainbow fun for me. : (There are other really good classes to faff about with, so it's not a huge loss.


If i post my build would you look at it and point out holes/flaws?I can take a look, and I'm sure I'm not the only one around here.


Game is Evil campaign where apparently we need to kill one of the PC's. (whos a demi deity) and apparently the other gods or god (not sure) doesn't like the new "uprising" god near there turf.

Im mostly trying to make myself "caster" flexible. and sorcerer lets me get things like wings of cover and such shanghais shenanigansAre you not a native speaker of English, by any chance?

Also, I'll keep that in mind. There are lots of ways to screw over powerful enemies if you're an arcane caster. Plenty of good options we can muster up, I'm sure.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

No I'm a native speaker. My brain tends to think before I can spell and when on a keyboard I type and click post before I realize I should spell check. Plus odd hours and work are making hard to check reliably. So sorry for the bad spelling and English lol

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What about the incantatrix thing?

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Honestly no idea. I could of swore i saw someone mentioning it. : (
And i couldn't use it since its also Faerûn and its 3.0. DM doesn't want us using 3.0 besides certain books due to limitation. Like Epic Level Handbook since they didnt really make a 3.5 version

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a 3.5 incantrix update somewhere, but that does not solve the Faerun problem.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Okay, the rules for epic are 3.0. How can you not use the epic rules and still make an epic level character?

[edit] Human paragon and fatespinner are nigh pointless, as the first one doesn't give you anything that factotum + Able Learner + polymorph any object doesn't do vastly better, and the second can be obviated by a few magic items and spells.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I know the hypocrisy of don't use 3.0 and using it then doesn't make sense. But if the DM says it works. Dm says it works.

As for fatespinner human factotum. Im aware allot of it is repeating. But they are also separate and stack able. One is a free action. (fate spinner) And the other is a before you do this action (factotum). So while yes they are similar or the same. They can also be thrown together.

So if I need a spell or a save or a Dc bumped. I can literally pump myself up to stupid levels of safety or effect.

As for the polymorph cheese trick/workarounds.

I try to stay away from polymorph unless i got something very specific in mind and I have cleared it with the DM.

As much craziness fun it can be. It can also completely trash any set ups due to " I turn into a giant Kraken" "i turn into a hydra" when it would of been normal. "lets do this as a team"

I know its a extreme case but I try not to ruffle my DMs feathers to much.

I am also rebuilding trying the Spellthief and seeing how it turns out atm. will report more later.