So, a Dragonfire Adpet/Swordsage... where to go from here?

[Rangle M. Down]

Just getting started on a new 3.5 campaign, and decided to go for a odd mix, mostly for flavor. Hence Ashe Wilhelm, my new Whisper Gnome Swordsage 1/Dragonfire Adept 2 character. I plan on continuing with the Swordsage for the most part, but might pick up a couple more levels of DA down the line. I like the idea of a Nightcrawler-esque character, but wanted a little Draconic influence.

The GM has us starting at level 3, with "heroic rolls", so our stats are a bit higher then the average. Stats: Str. 13, Dex. 20, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14.

Starting Feats: Adaptive Style, Combat Reflexes, and Dragontouched (bonus for being DA)
Starting Stance: Island of Blades
Starting Maneuvers: Burning Blade, Distracting Ember, Wolf Fang Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Moment of the Perfect Mind, Mighty Throw.

I've spent a lot of time reading RFLS's Swordsage Handbook, and like the advice there. I'm planning on getting most of my Maneuvers from Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. I'm leaning towards TWF, but I haven't sold myself on it yet. I'm mostly stuck on trying to figure out what I want to do for Feat progression. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions to help me sort out my madness? Have I presented enough information?
Thanks for any/all feedback and advice.

[daremetoidareyo]

Ask your DM if manoeuvres can be used in place of spells for draconic feats. Draconic claw comes to mind.

[tyckspoon]

Entangling Exhalation is a standby DFA feat; it adds a useful rider effect to your breath so that breathing on an enemy remains a useful action to do well past the time where 1d6 damage stopped being relevant. If you're planning to continue pushing your Dex as your highest stat you may want to look into Weapon Finesse and the Shadow Blade feat, or possibly acquiring a Feycraft (DMG2 item templates) weapon to save at least one of the feats.

[BowStreetRunner]

With regard to Draconic Feats, while Dragontouched gets you past the Sorcerer Requirement, Draconic Heritage is still a feat tax that I wouldn't recommend if you're not going sorcerer. Stick with the Draconic Feats that don't require DH.

I'd be curious to know what Invocation you took from DFA. The Draconic Aura feat actually covers some of the same ground as the least invocations available to you, so there is a possibility of doubling up this way, depending on what you took.

[Rangle M. Down]

Interesting ideas so far. Some fun choices. As for the invocation, I went boring and grabbed Endure Exposure. Not sure what invocation I'll grab the next time I can get one.

[Malimar]

Unfortunate that Jade Phoenix Mage requires spellcasting, else it would be a neat way to advance both at once (though you'd miss out on advancing breath effects). Ask your DM if you can finagle that to "able to use an invocation that counts as a 2nd level spell" or something? Though that gets you in with only one level of DFA, as most Leasts count as 2nds. Bumping it up to requiring Lessers would make you invest 6 levels into DFA, probably more than you want. The most appropriate change to maintain the original intent would probably be to change the spellcasting requirement to "level 3 DFA" instead.

[Nifft]

Do you need to be a Dragonfire Adept?

Being a Swordsage 3 could get you Hatchling's Flame, which is a fire-breath maneuver that's 2d6 fire damage in a 30 ft. cone. That's better than you'd have as a DFA 2, and you can trade it out for better fire-cone maneuvers as you level up in Swordsage.


For feats, perhaps...

Level 1: Adaptive Style (ToB), Shadow Blade (ToB)
Level 3: Weapon Finesse (Core)

That'll serve you well with single-weapon or TWF. With your stats, you could even go spiked chain + power attack, and deal high damage by turning your high-dex Finesse weapon into a nasty two-handed chainsaw. (At that point you'll look longingly at Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes, too...)

[Rangle M. Down]

I went Dragonfire Adept for a couple of reasons. The original concept was a toss between a DF Adept and a Dragon Shaman, as I wanted him to be Draconian in some fashion. I also liked the +AC, and Dragon scales he gets at level 2, helping fill the theme. The breath weapon, according to the book, can also be used as a full action each round, where as the maneuver has to be refreshed to use a second time. So yeah, while it's not "the best", in my addled brain the DF Adept works well for the concept.

Interesting choices on the feats. Thanks much. :D

[TotallyNotEvil]

Problem is that DFA really ought to not be losing any levels.

While a DFA dipping swordsage can work, a Swordsage dipping DFA is... Mostly wasting his dip.

[BowStreetRunner]

Problem is that DFA really ought to not be losing any levels.

While a DFA dipping swordsage can work, a Swordsage dipping DFA is... Mostly wasting his dip.

The 1 level dip in DFA doesn't have much synergy with swordsage. The OP might even be better off with a straight swordsage and the Draconic template. For +1 LA you get +1 natural armor, claw attacks, darkvision & low-light vision, +4 racial save vs spell & paralysis, Str +2, COn +2, Cha +2, and a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Spot. If your DM allows level buyoff, this is even better.

Since swordsage has Tiger Claw maneuvers and Draconic creatures have claws, this also lines up well for the Bloodclaw Master prestige class.

[Perpetual Blur]

As stated above, Entangling Exhalation is a bonkers-good feat for DFA; my DM ended up banning it after my DFA was done. It's good enough that a DFA dip may be worth it.

After that, I'd aim for shadow blade and weapon finesse for dex-based combat. Maybe grab a barbarian dip 'eventually' for more reliable pounce (assuming no favored class rules).

Edit: Also, DFA breath weapon is a standard action, not a full round.

[Nifft]

I think you could get a more effective all-day at-will breath weapon by taking the Dragonborn racial template (from Races of the Dragon), which also grants -2 Dex / +2 Con and the Dragonblood subtype, for access to Entangling Exhalation. That's nicer than two levels of DFA because the breath weapon scales with your character level, and you get access to more damage types. At level 3, you'd deal 2d8 damage in a 15 ft. line every 1d4 rounds, and the damage can be acid, cold, electricity, or fire, changing on each use as you choose. The line gets +5 ft. longer every time you level up, up to 100 ft. long at level 20.

You'd lose your Gnome cantrips and lose your +1 to Illusion spell DCs, but you have no Illusion spells so that's not much of a hit.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think you could get a more effective all-day at-will breath weapon by taking the Dragonborn racial template (from Races of the Dragon), which also grants -2 Dex / +2 Con and the Dragonblood subtype, for access to Entangling Exhalation. That's nicer than two levels of DFA because the breath weapon scales with your character level, and you get access to more damage types. At level 3, you'd deal 2d8 damage in a 15 ft. line every 1d4 rounds, and the damage can be acid, cold, electricity, or fire, changing on each use as you choose. The line gets +5 ft. longer every time you level up, up to 100 ft. long at level 20.

You'd lose your Gnome cantrips and lose your +1 to Illusion spell DCs, but you have no Illusion spells so that's not much of a hit.

Actually, you'd lose low-light vision, darkvision, weapon familiarity, attack bonus vs kobolds and goblinoids, dodge bonus vs giants, racial hide & move silently bonus, and spell like abilities. This is a Whisper Gnome, so no illusion spell bonus to lose.

[Nifft]

Actually, you'd lose low-light vision, darkvision, weapon familiarity, attack bonus vs kobolds and goblinoids, dodge bonus vs giants, racial hide & move silently bonus, and spell like abilities. This is a Whisper Gnome, so no illusion spell bonus to lose.

Ah right, Whisper not regular.

In that case, it's a balance between paying 2 low-quality, non-scaling class levels, or exchanging a bunch of racial abilities (which might be useful -- Whisper Gnome does get some goodies).

Class levels seem more valuable, especially if you expect to play up to level 10 (or higher). Racial abilities can be good at level 3, but they won't scale as well as class abilities.

[Perpetual Blur]

One other advantage to keep in mind: DFA scales aren't an enhancement bonus to NA; they're bonafide NA. So they'll stack with most magical sources of NA.

[Nifft]

One other advantage to keep in mind: DFA scales aren't an enhancement bonus to NA; they're bonafide NA. So they'll stack with most magical sources of NA.

Or you could be using UMD to cast alter self from an item, or using that one BoVD leather armor which grants you alter self at-will.

You can get +6 by from taking the form of a Troglodyte.

The scales from DFA aren't bad, but they're not all that stacking-friendly if your game allows transformation magic -- polymorph & friends are some of the most common sources of NA.

(Even on a pure DFA, the scales bonus is often ignored, since the Humanoid Shape invocation becomes available at level 6. If your DM rules that the DFA's breath weapon works like a racial breath weapon rather than like a class ability, then that's a good reason to care about the Scales bonus, but many DMs seem to allow the DFA's class breath weapon to work when transformed.)

[Aquillion]

I think that's an optimization level question. While obviously an entirely valid option mechanically, some tables would frown on using UMD to transform yourself into a troglodyte for every single fight. The way the OP describes their choices and characters gives me the impression that they play a more flavor-oriented game that might not be happy with heavy UMD -> Alter Self usage.

And they themselves might not be happy with it, since turning into a troglodyte doesn't really fit the build's theme.

[Rangle M. Down]

I think that's an optimization level question. While obviously an entirely valid option mechanically, some tables would frown on using UMD to transform yourself into a troglodyte for every single fight. The way the OP describes their choices and characters gives me the impression that they play a more flavor-oriented game that might not be happy with heavy UMD -> Alter Self usage.

And they themselves might not be happy with it, since turning into a troglodyte doesn't really fit the build's theme.

Since the original post and my first reply, I've played the character, so what was stated in the OP is where I'm continuing on from. By no means does that mean I don't appreciate what everyone's brought to the table, but my schedule's been crazy busy and I haven't had time to post in a few days. Should the GM kill the character, which he keeps promising to do, I'll certainly revisit him with what you guys have suggested. Some fantastic ideas. With that being said, some feedback to what you guys have said.

Yep, turning into a Troglodyte doesn't fit the build's theme. And yes, I'm all about flavor oriented play style. Mind you, I am the reason my GM hates Bards... I'll just leave it at that. :smallcool:

I am liking the thought of Entangling Exhalation feat. That alone would probably drive my GM bonkers.

I did take a very long look at Dragonborn (several weeks, if not more), but a few of the racial "features", really don't fit the concept, nor my play style. It was very, very tempting to go that way, but in the end I had to walk away.

Unlike a few of my fellow players, I also prefer to stay away from any LA adjustments. Now, my wife on the other hand... :smallbiggrin:

Again, love all the ideas. It's been a while since we've run a 3.5 campaign, and quite a bit of the stuff you've mentioned I've either never known about, or had forgotten. So while I may not go with your specific ideas, don't think it's unappreciated.