1st round of combat

[Dmdork]

The 40' hallway continues south. At the end of the hall, the hallway breaks west for 10' and then opens up into a large chamber. The rogue scouts ahead, leaving the party in the hallway, let's say, 20' from the corner. The room has a group of Yaunti. The rogue stealths in and the passives of the Yaunti are not good enough. Now, the rogue wants to start by sneak attacking, so initiative is rolled. Now it looks like the rogue will get his attack off, and the Yaunti won't do munch but be surprised. But what about the rest of the party? Do they get to roll initiative? Are they technically surprised? How close do they have to be in order to be in this combat? Should they make stealth checks also?


Anyway, what I did was just have everyone roll for initiative and start the combat, with only the Yaunti surprised. rogue murdered one, then the Yaunti rolled high on initiative so they were next, but did nothing cuz they were surprised, then the barbarian other rouge and cleric came in and did some serious damage, almost ending the encounter. So, even though I basically won initiative, the party all got to do something even though I didn't, and that's all cuz one rogue make his stealth check.

When I think about it, if the party was gonna be that close, maybe they should also make stealth checks, possibly ruining the surprise for everyone. Or if they are gonna be waaay far back, maybe they won't go in the first round, or we can just say they are technically surprised also.

[Aett_Thorn]

If I were the DM here, I probably would have said that the first round of combat for the party would have been them hearing the battle, and they could not have done much except get ready (basically surprised since they had no idea that a battle was about to begin)

[Maelynn]

A surprise round would be only the Rogue attacking. The Yuan-ti are surprised during that round only. Then, you roll for initiative and the Yuan-ti should've had their turn - as the surprise only counted for the round during which the Rogue attacked, they would've been able to get their attacks on the Rogue before the rest of the party were even in sight.

Also... 20 ft from the corner, and then another 10 ft corridor just to end up at the doorway. That means you'd have to have a speed of 30 just to be able to get into the doorway and within line of sight. Any less and you can't attack that round (though you could make a double move). Also, at 30 speed they'd have to have ranged attacks - pure melee still can't attack from the doorway.

[Nuclear]

My personal opinion is that only the rogue gets to attack on the first turn. His party can move in to engage in combat, but since IC wise they would be rushing into the combat area they wont be able to attack.

Exception is if the rogue has some way of communicating with the rest of his party about where the enemies are

At this point his party has an idea of where the enemies are, so they arent charging in blindly.

[Elminster298]

The party knew the Rogue was going in so I say they weren't "surprised" per se. Full round for the original rogue, no round for the yuan-ti, single move action only for the rest of the party. That's how I would have judged it. The single move action for the party is because they would need to be far enough back to not ruin stealth but still prepared to move if things go wrong. Their "action" was spent waiting to hear battle start.

[Samayu]

I agree with the above.

But also keep in mind that at some point, the party may legit take out the bad guys that easily. It happens sometimes.

This weekend we ended a campaign, with a battle against the BBEG. I rolled a 1 on nish. In the first turn, I took protective action, because the guy next to me had just gotten hit, and if it had been me I'd have been dead. And then the BBEG died midway through the second round. I bet I was even more disappointed than the GM.

[Laserlight]

See PHB 189. Determine surprise, determine positions, roll initiative, then take turns in initiative order. Anyone surprised does not get to act or move on his first turn, and can't take a reaction until the end of that turn.

The party is not surprised; they knew combat was likely to break out, even if they didn't know the specifics. (If they'd said "we're going to start a short rest in this room" and the rogue said "Yeah, but I don't need a rest, so I'm just going to snoop around a little", then I'd rule that they were surprised).

Of course, depending on how quietly the rogue killed his target and what the other yuanti did, they might need to roll Perception to realize that combat *has* broken out.

I've had combats end before the first round was finished. Fireball, call lightning, twinned Banish on a pair of elementals, that sort of thing. Congratulate your players before being awesome and remember that Bad Guys can get stealth and AoE attacks too. I remember one occasion of "You're all surprised. Roll initiative. Okay, the shadow dragon rises out of the smoke layer and makes a breath attack, which gets....looks like it gets everyone except that NPC in the back, the purple one, so everyone else make a DEX save." That was a fun fight.

[Dmdork]

I just don't like the fact that everyone got to go but the Yaunti, who basically won initiative, and all because one rogue made an easy stealth check (they usually are). The party attacked without having to do anything different. They all had 30 foot move, barb had more. They entered threw javelins of lighting, flame strikes, and other missle big damage stuffs. If they earned it (whole party stealthed and got the jump on the Yaunti, or party won initiative), then fine.
It's not right. I could do the same thing, have one evil enemy rogue gain surprise (easily, cuz it's only one check and rogues are generally a lot better than those trying to detect them), and have the rest of the rogues allies 'piggy back' on the surprise. Doesn't seem right.

[Cespenar]

If the rest of the party are as close as one move away from the battle (30' ?), I'd have them roll stealth as well, maybe with advantage.

If they are far enough that they'd need to spend their whole turn closing in (60'+), then they could get away with no stealth rolls.

[Maelynn]

I just don't like the fact that everyone got to go but the Yaunti, who basically won initiative

The thing that went wrong is that you basically gave them an extra surprise round.

If you have to move 30 feet just to be in reach/LoS of enemies, then you lose the element of surprise. Hence, only the Rogue should've gotten his extra attack. Then the normal round starts, with the Yuan-ti attacking before the rest since they won initiative.

As for the rest of the party being aware of the surprise attack, I disagree with that. They were 30 ft away and the Rogue went 'scouting'. He didn't say "hey, I'm going ahead to attack the mobs that I find". So the party wouldn't know the Rogue had found someting to sink his blades into until they heard the sounds of the attack - and would therefore be just as surprised as the Yuan-ti were.

[Unoriginal]

You roll initiative, but the surprised people don't get to act in their first turn.

Even if you roll 19 in initiative and your opponent 3, in your first round you're too flabbergasted to do the sweet combat moves. Then you realize what's going on and act at initiative 19.

[RazorChain]

It should have been like this

Rogue attacks stealthily.

Suprise round. Yanti trying to find out wtf happened. Rogue gets a free turn. The party is figuring out that the rogue has started a fight.

Next turn roll initiative. Everybody takes a turn.

The party doesnt know what the rogue has found or that he's starting a fight unless he has some kind of mind link so I would rule that the party first finds out that combat has been started on the suprise round and can act normally the next round.

If it was a coordinated attack, then I'd give the whole party a suprise round.

For example: the rogue comes back from scouting, tells the party what's up ahead and on his signal attack.

That is what recon is, not some idiot that runs ahead and starts a fight without giving his teammates intel or do a tactical assessment

[Unoriginal]

It should have been like this

Rogue attacks stealthily.

Suprise round. Yanti trying to find out wtf happened. Rogue gets a free turn. The party is figuring out that the rogue has started a fight.

Next turn roll initiative. Everybody takes a turn.

The party doesnt know what the rogue has found or that he's starting a fight unless he has some kind of mind link so I would rule that the party first finds out that combat has been started on the suprise round and can act normally the next round.


No, it should be :

-Rogue player announces the attack

-Everyone rolls for initiative

-1rst round: Everyone but the Rogue is surprised

-2nd round: Everyone can act as normal.

Initative is before the suprised condition, always.




If it was a coordinated attack, then I'd give the whole party a suprise round.

For example: the rogue comes back from scouting, tells the party what's up ahead and on his signal attack.

That is what recon is, not some idiot that runs ahead and starts a fight without giving his teammates intel or do a tactical assessment

There is no surprise round per se, but it's true the PCs wouldn't have been surprised in the first round if the Rogue told them about it.

[Dmdork]

Something else to think about:

Same situation. Rogue goes in and tries to start the combat by attacking. Initiative is rolled. Yaunti are surprised. Party is 60' back, which I would rule that they don't have to stealth, and they still get to roll initiative, as everyone does in 5e.

So, here's the rub. Initiative is rolled and the party 60 back wins! The rogue is last, and Yaunti somewhere in between. Now the rogue doesn't start the combat. What now? I know there's plenty of ad lib judgement calls as DMs we can make here. So here's my call. Party that's far away is 'surprised' That's the only way the rogue gets to attack first no matter what the initiative roll is...rogue starts attack, everyone else is surprised, then next round....
Party that's closer to the enemies has to stealth with the rogue to get good positioning AND attacking in the first round.

[Pelle]

If the party only can know that a combat has started by hearing it after the rogue has in fact stabbed the enemy, then they should all start as 'surprised'.

If they could observe the rogue approaching the enemy, there is no problem in them not being 'surprised'. After all, they could decide on beating the rogue to it by shooting an arrow the enemy first or launching a spell or something.

[Aett_Thorn]

If the party only can know that a combat has started by hearing it after the rogue has in fact stabbed the enemy, then they should all start as 'surprised'.

If they could observe the rogue approaching the enemy, there is no problem in them not being 'surprised'. After all, they could decide on beating the rogue to it by shooting an arrow the enemy first or launching a spell or something.

Well, if they are expecting that combat MIGHT break out, then I might allow them to ready an action on their turn if they happen to roll higher initiative than the rogue. But again, that means that initiative is rolled before the Rogue goes.

[Dmdork]

If they could observe the rogue approaching the enemy, there is no problem in them not being 'surprised'. After all, they could decide on beating the rogue to it by shooting an arrow the enemy first or launching a spell or something.. But then the party is acting on enemies that are surprised without stealthing themselves, which I don't like. If you wanna act on enemies that are surprised, I would say you must stealth. Otherwise let the stealthers do their thing, and everyone else acts in the next round. Now, every situation is different, so, it still is a case by case basis. Just trying to lock it down with the simplest ad lib possible.

[Unoriginal]

Something else to think about:

Same situation. Rogue goes in and tries to start the combat by attacking. Initiative is rolled. Yaunti are surprised. Party is 60' back, which I would rule that they don't have to stealth, and they still get to roll initiative, as everyone does in 5e.

So, here's the rub. Initiative is rolled and the party 60 back wins! The rogue is last, and Yaunti somewhere in between. Now the rogue doesn't start the combat. What now?

If the initiative was rolled, it means combat HAS started. If the Rogue decides to not do anything, then it's their problem for wasting a turn.

If you mean "Rogue doesn't go first, what now?", then it's just the rest of the party perceive the Rogue going in and have a chance to act before that.



I know there's plenty of ad lib judgement calls as DMs we can make here. So here's my call. Party that's far away is 'surprised' That's the only way the rogue gets to attack first no matter what the initiative roll is...rogue starts attack, everyone else is surprised, then next round....

The Rogue doesn't need to be the first to attack. That being said, if you like that ruling, do what you want.


. But then the party is acting on enemies that are surprised without stealthing themselves, which I don't like. If you wanna act on enemies that are surprised, I would say you must stealth. Otherwise let the stealthers do their thing, and everyone else acts in the next round. Now, every situation is different, so, it still is a case by case basis. Just trying to lock it down with the simplest ad lib possible.

Look, can the party be perceived by the enemies? If they CAN be perceived, and are not hiding, then there is no surprise for the party.

A group of people 60ft away from you is still perceptible unless there is something blocking your vision and something that's muffling the noise they make,

[Pelle]

Well, if they are expecting that combat MIGHT break out, then I might allow them to ready an action on their turn if they happen to roll higher initiative than the rogue. But again, that means that initiative is rolled before the Rogue goes.

Right, 'surprise' becomes a little abstract if the party expect that combat might break out, but I find it generally makes the situation make sense even though the fluff meaning of the word is not fitting perfectly. Sneaking around in initiative is not really the intention of the system, and you can't ready actions outside of combat. If they rolled higher initiative than the rogue, but don't know to act until after the rogue has done his businiess, being 'surprised' the first round works out perfectly, since they get the first action in the second round.

[Pelle]

. But then the party is acting on enemies that are surprised without stealthing themselves, which I don't like. If you wanna act on enemies that are surprised, I would say you must stealth. Otherwise let the stealthers do their thing, and everyone else acts in the next round. Now, every situation is different, so, it still is a case by case basis. Just trying to lock it down with the simplest ad lib possible.

If the party can observe the rogue and target without being noticed by the enemy, they are stealthing.

Your problem seems to be that you don't like that the party has said the plan is that the rogue will sneak up and sneak attack, then the rest of the party will join combat to not alert the enemy first, but then the initiative mechanics allow the unsurprised ranger to shoot before the rogue anyways. To not create this mismatch the ranger can just ready attack to hit after the rogue has attacked, or you can just accept that the ranger didn't follow the plan, but still the target don't have enough time to react before being stabbed by the rogue.

[Lombra]

You ran it as intended. Yuan-ti were surprised, so they were functionally incapacitated in their first round. It's the advantage of stealth, this time it payed off.

[mephnick]

I think they all should have made individual stealth checks if they were attempting to be quiet and every single one compared to the Yuan-ti's passives. 20' isn't nearly enough distance to be considered separated from the party.

But after you did everything else right.

[Unoriginal]

I think they all should have made individual stealth checks if they were attempting to be quiet and every single one compared to the Yuan-ti's passives. 20' isn't nearly enough distance to be considered separated from the party.

But after you did everything else right.

This is true, enemies can perceive you're in the room next to them, if you're not trying to hide.

[JackPhoenix]

Yuan-ti were surprised, as they weren't aware of any present enemies (the rogue was sneaking, rest of the party was too far away)
The party was also surprised, as they weren't aware of any present enemies (they were too far away to know Yuan-ti were there)
Rogue wasn't surprised (he knew the Yuan-ti are there)

The party wasn't stealthy, neither were the Yuan-ti, but the distance was judged as long enough to not notice each other's presence. If one side was aware of the other, the other would be aware of them, ruining the surprise.

[Demonslayer666]

You messed up letting the rest of the party act in the first round of combat. They were not part of the combat, and were not aware of any enemies, only the rogue was aware and started combat. Only the combatants roll initiative, not everyone.

The party would only be allowed to join the combat if they were somehow notified there were enemies to attack. Acting on things you know as a player but your character does not (rogue attacked an enemy), is metagaming.

Depending on the situation, I may have given the party the opportunity to hear the rogue's attack, but being stealthy, it would have been quiet and hard to hear. If they made it, they could join the combat on their initiative on the second round.

[Malifice]

The 40' hallway continues south. At the end of the hall, the hallway breaks west for 10' and then opens up into a large chamber. The rogue scouts ahead, leaving the party in the hallway, let's say, 20' from the corner. The room has a group of Yaunti. The rogue stealths in and the passives of the Yaunti are not good enough. Now, the rogue wants to start by sneak attacking, so initiative is rolled. Now it looks like the rogue will get his attack off, and the Yaunti won't do munch but be surprised. But what about the rest of the party? Do they get to roll initiative? Are they technically surprised? How close do they have to be in order to be in this combat? Should they make stealth checks also?

Initiative is rolled for all combatants (including the rest of the party). Seeing as both the Yuanti and the other PCs (barring the Rogue) are unaware of each other, all other combatants (other that the Rogue) are surprised.

On round one you cycle through initiative as normal, with all surprised creatures unable to act, and only able to take reactions after their turn ends.


Anyway, what I did was just have everyone roll for initiative and start the combat, with only the Yaunti surprised. rogue murdered one, then the Yaunti rolled high on initiative so they were next, but did nothing cuz they were surprised, then the barbarian other rouge and cleric came in and did some serious damage, almost ending the encounter. So, even though I basically won initiative, the party all got to do something even though I didn't, and that's all cuz one rogue make his stealth check.

The rest of the party (barring the Rogue) were unaware of the presence of the Yuanti when combat started (when you called for initiative). Ergo they were also surprised on round one.

[Arial Black]

Initiative is rolled for all combatants (including the rest of the party). Seeing as both the Yuanti and the other PCs (barring the Rogue) are unaware of each other, all other combatants (other that the Rogue) are surprised.

On round one you cycle through initiative as normal, with all surprised creatures unable to act, and only able to take reactions after their turn ends.

The rest of the party (barring the Rogue) were unaware of the presence of the Yuanti when combat started (when you called for initiative). Ergo they were also surprised on round one.

Malifice is correct on all counts here.

Remember that the actual RULE on who get's surprised is that "the DM decides which creatures are surprised". Sure, the DM usually calls for an opposed skill check (which is usually Stealth versus Perception), but the skill check is not the RULE, the RULE is that the 'DM decides!'

Therefore, the DM can (and in this case should) decide that the other PCs are surprised because the didn't know about those yuan-ti and didn't know that the rogue was launching an attack right then.

The yuan-ti do get an opposed check, because they could perceive the threat with good enough rolls. The most likely outcome is that the only creature to actually act in the first round is the rogue. Whether or not the rest of the party becomes involved depends on whether or not they have reason to suspect that something is going on.

[JackPhoenix]

The yuan-ti do get an opposed check, because they could perceive the threat with good enough rolls. The most likely outcome is that the only creature to actually act in the first round is the rogue. Whether or not the rest of the party becomes involved depends on whether or not they have reason to suspect that something is going on.

Only if they suspect someone is there and actively search the area. Otherwise, Stealth goes against their passive Perception.

[Dmdork]

The rest of the party (barring the Rogue) were unaware of the presence of the Yuanti when combat started (when you called for initiative). Ergo they were also surprised on round one.. Well, I should have told you guys that the rogue stealthed, then came back and told the party about the Yaunti. Then they timed it so although the party is still in the hall (let's say it was 40' back, or far enough to not be detected, cuz I agree if they were 20' then stealth checks would have to happen), they would give it the ol' 1, 2, 3 and attack. Would this change anything? I would say it does according to all your posts. So then what? Now the party isn't surprised even though they're waaay back in the hall? That sounds ok to me. Because of the rogue recon, the party gets the benefit of not being surprised, although they are quite far back and won't be able to do too much. That is the problem I had in the encounter, with the party 'piggy backing'on the one rogue stealth check. As you have said, the DM decides who is surprised.

[JackPhoenix]

What level was the party? And what kind of Yuan-ti and how numerous were the enemies? You've mentioned Flame Strike, that means the characters had at least 9th level. Purebloods are CR 1, that means you'll need at least 6 to make that EASY encounter for 4 level 9 characters, anything less is a speedbump at best, especially if they use resources. Broodguards are CR 2, but they aren't much more resilient.

[Demonslayer666]

. Well, I should have told you guys that the rogue stealthed, then came back and told the party about the Yaunti. Then they timed it so although the party is still in the hall (let's say it was 40' back, or far enough to not be detected, cuz I agree if they were 20' then stealth checks would have to happen), they would give it the ol' 1, 2, 3 and attack. Would this change anything? I would say it does according to all your posts. So then what? Now the party isn't surprised even though they're waaay back in the hall? That sounds ok to me. Because of the rogue recon, the party gets the benefit of not being surprised, although they are quite far back and won't be able to do too much. That is the problem I had in the encounter, with the party 'piggy backing'on the one rogue stealth check. As you have said, the DM decides who is surprised.

The rogue does not grant the rest of the party stealth. If the party wants to charge in at the same time as the rogue's attack, they would also have to use stealth or there is no surprise, it's a straight initiative check.

[Dmdork]

2 abominations, 3 malice. Tuff encounter. 5 9th level chars

[Dmdork]

The rogue does not grant the rest of the party stealth. If the party wants to charge in at the same time as the rogue's attack, they would also have to use stealth or there is no surprise, it's a straight initiative check. ok what the party is far enough away to not be perceived? Are they not in the encounter?

[sophontteks]

ok what the party is far enough away to not be perceived? Are they not in the encounter?
They would have been heard running in. It takes something special to completely remove an enemies ability to react to someone charging at them from 40 feet away. There is a lot of room for creativity to gain this suprise, espesially with illusions and such, but not just charging in.

40 feet IMO is absolutely within the range where a stealth chevk would have been required under normal circumstances to avoid being heard by the enemy. Its not a very far distance.

[Dmdork]

I agree with all that. I still ask, if a party is far away enough to not be perceived, are they too far to be in the encounter?

[greenstone]

So, here's the rub. Initiative is rolled and the party 60 back wins! The rogue is last, and Yaunti somewhere in between. Now the rogue doesn't start the combat.

The Rogue does start the combat. That's what triggered the Initiative check.

What you are missing is that the Initiative order is not the order in which characters and monsters start their action; it is the order in which they finish their action.

The Rogue attacks, but is a little slower off the mark than the Yaunti, so they get to resolve their actions before the Rogue does. In this case, their actions are "I'm surprised derp", but they do get a turns and (importantly) they can now make Reactions against the Rogue.

As to the rest of the party, if they are close enough to be able to move in and act in one round then they are certainly close enough to be making stealth rolls. Sound and light travels a long way underground.

[Dmdork]

The Rogue does start the combat. That's what triggered the Initiative check.

What you are missing is that the Initiative order is not the order in which characters and monsters start their action; it is the order in which they finish their action.

The Rogue attacks, but is a little slower off the mark than the Yaunti, so they get to resolve their actions before the Rogue does. In this case, their actions are "I'm surprised derp", but they do get a turns and (importantly) they can now make Reactions against the Rogue.

As to the rest of the party, if they are close enough to be able to move in and act in one round then they are certainly close enough to be making stealth rolls. Sound and light travels a long way underground. Good stuff, especially the part about finish
So, what if the party is far back? How far back is enough to Not be detected yet still be a part of the combat?
Example:
Let's say in the previous example the hallway that goes south is 100', turning west for 10' and then opening up into the Yaunti room. Party is at the end of the hall, no light source, as they all have darkvision, but there's plate mail. Rogue tells the party I'm going in to hide and attack. The party tries to 'time it' and closes in. Rogue makes his hide check when he gets to the Yaunti. How would you play out that combat with as little DM calls as possible? I like the fact that 5e puts the game back in the DM's hands, it's a little daunting though...

[sophontteks]

Good stuff, especially the part about finish
So, what if the party is far back? How far back is enough to Not be detected yet still be a part of the combat?
Example:
Let's say in the previous example the hallway that goes south is 100', turning west for 10' and then opening up into the Yaunti room. Party is at the end of the hall, no light source, as they all have darkvision, but there's plate mail. Rogue tells the party I'm going in to hide and attack. The party tries to 'time it' and closes in. Rogue makes his hide check when he gets to the Yaunti. How would you play out that combat with as little DM calls as possible? I like the fact that 5e puts the game back in the DM's hands, it's a little daunting though...
I'd tell them that its a really bad plan quite bluntly. They aren't reasonably going to run in the moment the rogue strikes. They wouldn't even know when the rogue is ready and could get him killed.

[Dmdork]

I'd tell them that its a really bad plan quite bluntly. They aren't reasonably going to run in the moment the rogue strikes. They wouldn't even know when the rogue is ready and could get him killed.
Maybe it isn't a bad idea. Maybe the rogue can start the combat, assassinate one of the Yaunti, and bolt outta there before Yaunti can do anything. Then maybe the combat gets brought into the hallway, out of the Yaunti room that's got traps n stuff. It's not my place to tell my players what's a good and bad idea, I'm concentrating on running the game, and I'm lookin for answers. This is is great place to get them. Thank you Giant in the Playground.

[sophontteks]

Maybe it isn't a bad idea. Maybe the rogue can start the combat, assassinate one of the Yaunti, and bolt outta there before Yaunti can do anything. Then maybe the combat gets brought into the hallway, out of the Yaunti room that's got traps n stuff. It's not my place to tell my players what's a good and bad idea, I'm concentrating on running the game, and I'm lookin for answers. This is is great place to get them. Thank you Giant in the Playground.
That is an entirely different plan then what was described.
I will absolutely tell players when something straight up won't work. Its my job as the creator of the rules to clarify them for the players. In this case I would be saying something because they are metagaming. Their plan makes no sense within the bounds of the game and only works because they are thinking in terms of rounds with omnipresent knowledge of when the rogue will strike.

[Nuclear]

That is an entirely different plan then what was described.
I will absolutely tell players when something straight up won't work. Its my job as the creator of the rules to clarify them for the players. In this case I would be saying something because they are metagaming. Their plan makes no sense within the bounds of the game and only works because they are thinking in terms of rounds with omnipresent knowledge of when the rogue will strike.

There are ways around that. One method is for the party to maintain communications via Message. That is what my party usually does when they send the rogue ahead to scout.

That way they would know exactly when the rogue will strike.

[Dmdork]

That is an entirely different plan then what was described. Yes, it is. I have obtained my answers I think. I'm just changing it up to see what else you guys come up with....possible rulings on possible scenarios.

[sophontteks]

Sorry I'm just answering these questions as specifically as possible.

Message is funny. It only lasts 10 seconds, so the wizard has to keep whispering in the targets ear so they can respond. "Sup, there yet. You there? Hey. Heeey. Heeey."

But, they would still just be running into a normal round of combat AFAIK.

[Demonslayer666]

ok what the party is far enough away to not be perceived? Are they not in the encounter?

No. In order to be excluded, they would also have to be far enough away to not hear combat. I generally have combat be loud and easy to hear, especially in a dungeon.