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PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-24, 06:11 PM
I'm looking to more formally write up parts of my setting. Mostly for me (so I can systematically know what the characters would automatically know just from having grown up there), but also for the players should they choose. This isn't my session 0 material, so it can be much more in-depth.

At this point I'm looking at regions and want to include a section about things an adventurer from that region would just plain know. What would you want to see in a player's guide to a setting? Are there setting books (preferably low-cost/free) that do a good job with this that I can steal ideas from? Things that are necessary? Things that are superfluous?

The setting is a non-standard-cosmology D&D setting. Most of the standard elements are there, but not in the same "medieval stasis" pattern. It's more "post-apocalyptic expansion into the shattered frontier" (set 200 years after a cataclysm that killed ~70-80% of everybody, turned off organized mortal-accessible magic for 50 years, and reshaped the ground itself. Even the gods are new since then.

Karl Aegis
2018-04-24, 06:24 PM
Where you at
Where you want to be
Who in charge

JoeJ
2018-04-24, 08:15 PM
Recent history; things that the PCs parents and grandparents would have lived through.

No brains
2018-04-24, 08:25 PM
Information on common creatures under challenge 5. It's likely that merchant caravans or other large roving groups of people probably encountered these creatures and can pass on knowledge of how to survive them if not kill them. If you're making a setting where trolls do not have regeneration stopped by fire, people would probably be able to observe that.

Above challenge 5, it's possible a creature could wipe out a large swath of normal people, so surprises are to be expected. If a dragon breathes out an entire bandit patrol in one action, nobody will have any clue it could also cast spells.

Pelle
2018-04-25, 03:06 AM
So if it for the players, I would say as little as possible, but everything that is different from your normal expected stereotypical setting of that genre is useful to mentionif it is common knowledge. If dwarves are the standard dwarves, you don't have to describe them. It would be nice with a list of short stories/fun facts (which might or might not be true) for each region, covering encounters with monsters and historical events that inform the geography, population etc. A list of deities is probably good if players can play clerics, but otherwise not

If it is for the DM, then it is good to know how well known every monster is to who lives in each region. There's usually no correlation with CR.

Cespenar
2018-04-25, 03:47 AM
If there's a big city that the group will spend a lot of time in, a nice section in the Murder in Baldur's Gate setting book had "A Day in the City" part, where it just explained how the day starts, what kind of people in which districts do what kind of stuff during the day, and stuff like that.

Darth Ultron
2018-04-25, 06:43 AM
Rumors are the first thing I put in a guide. Like a third false, third true and a third a bit in the middle. They give a nice ''character'' view of the world that is not so gamey.

I like things written by characters for the same reason. I always include those too. And like rumors the writings might not be 100% true.

I like to include one for each ''type'' of person in the area. It is also a great way to add words and speech and slang. Like the nobles of Zarlin call orcs ''tuskers'' or folk in the underworld call mercenaries ''bloodcoins".

Florian
2018-04-25, 07:03 AM
@PP:

I think the way L5R handles it is pretty good.

1) "Life in the Empire". Rough and on the point facts what the general culture is all about, like the caste system, believing in the Mandate of Heaven, all that.
2) "The Clans". Short overview how each clan sees and understands itself, short sentence on how they see the others.
3) "Rokugan". Simple and rough explanation on what you actually see on the map, with a paragraph or two giving the barest necessary hints.

That gives a good mix of facts, fiction and prejudice.

Pleh
2018-04-25, 07:19 AM
Recent history; things that the PCs parents and grandparents would have lived through.

Corollary: if you have elves, they can easily live 200 years (so many of the world's elves alive today might have seen the world before the cataclysm).

By 3.5's standards, a 200 year old elf is middle aged, so any adult elves at the time of cataclysm (~100 years old) that survive to present day will be old even by elvish standards.

It would likely be common knowledge that most elves you meet are the direct descendants of cataclysm survivors and speaking to one might be the most accessible way to hear stories about how the landscape has changed.

There could be some dwarven cataclysm survivors still around, but they'll likely be even more rare, being naturally near the end of their life expectancy without also surviving the apocolypse.


If there's a big city that the group will spend a lot of time in, a nice section in the Murder in Baldur's Gate setting book had "A Day in the City" part, where it just explained how the day starts, what kind of people in which districts do what kind of stuff during the day, and stuff like that.

Yeah, generally I'd suggest putting down the common day to day concerns, like how does eating work, where do we sleep, what are the major settlements (if any; though this seems strange that none would form at all in 200 years) and common travel info (I've never been to NYC, but I would know to be careful on the streets as an outsider), what are the essential commodities (do they use currency or just a barter system), how accessible are necessary commodities (will survival checks to find food and water be commonly required), etc.

All this because stages of post apocolypse can vary. It's good to let the players know where the reforming civilization stands by putting them in the context of day to day life.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-25, 07:41 AM
Corollary: if you have elves, they can easily live 200 years (so many of the world's elves alive today might have seen the world before the cataclysm).

By 3.5's standards, a 200 year old elf is middle aged, so any adult elves at the time of cataclysm (~100 years old) that survive to present day will be old even by elvish standards.

It would likely be common knowledge that most elves you meet are the direct descendants of cataclysm survivors and speaking to one might be the most accessible way to hear stories about how the landscape has changed.

There could be some dwarven cataclysm survivors still around, but they'll likely be even more rare, being naturally near the end of their life expectancy without also surviving the apocolypse.


One (significantly changed) issue--the elves and dwarves don't live as long as "stock" D&D elves & dwarves do.

High elves were nearly ageless (~1k years) before the cataclysm, now are ~180 years. They hate this change.

Wood elves are ~120 years. Note I've separated (in-universe) these two races. WHile they can interbreed, they don't. THey have different languages and different cultures, and have centuries of bad blood.

Dwarves are ~150 years, and always have been. The local dwarves have the best records though--they consider writing to be sacred and tradition to be a major part of their lives.

And yes, I set these ages and the timeline so that none of the pre-cataclysm people are still around, except through flukes (weird time behavior is rare but not unheard of).



Yeah, generally I'd suggest putting down the common day to day concerns, like how does eating work, where do we sleep, what are the major settlements (if any; though this seems strange that none would form at all in 200 years) and common travel info (I've never been to NYC, but I would know to be careful on the streets as an outsider), what are the essential commodities (do they use currency or just a barter system), how accessible are necessary commodities (will survival checks to find food and water be commonly required), etc.

All this because stages of post apocolypse can vary. It's good to let the players know where the reforming civilization stands by putting them in the context of day to day life.

The bounce-back was pretty fast (once the magic came back online, about 150 years ago). Each of the 4 major nations (plus one oddball civilization) has developed reasonably well (so no gritty survival issues), but they're only just recently coming in contact with each other. Most thought they were alone. Lots of unclaimed/wild land between and among the developed settlements.

Basically, I have the following regions. They each have better names, but :shrug:.

* Council Lands (biggest nation, each region is relatively distinct in culture)
** North
** Center/South
** East
** West (only a small bit to write here, mostly similar to the center)
* Stone Throne (small variations between the northern/central/southern regions)
* Remnant Dynasty
** North
** Center/mountains
** South
* Byss (no significant regional differences, this one's small)
* Goblin collective

Pelle
2018-04-25, 08:33 AM
Yeah, generally I'd suggest putting down the common day to day concerns, like how does eating work, where do we sleep, what are the major settlements (if any; though this seems strange that none would form at all in 200 years) and common travel info (I've never been to NYC, but I would know to be careful on the streets as an outsider), what are the essential commodities (do they use currency or just a barter system), how accessible are necessary commodities (will survival checks to find food and water be commonly required), etc.


And what should you give a tip for, and how much should you tip? (Going to the US is confusing...)

Pleh
2018-04-25, 08:59 AM
One (significantly changed) issue--the elves and dwarves don't live as long as "stock" D&D elves & dwarves do.

High elves were nearly ageless (~1k years) before the cataclysm, now are ~180 years. They hate this change.

Wood elves are ~120 years. Note I've separated (in-universe) these two races. WHile they can interbreed, they don't. THey have different languages and different cultures, and have centuries of bad blood.

Dwarves are ~150 years, and always have been. The local dwarves have the best records though--they consider writing to be sacred and tradition to be a major part of their lives.

And yes, I set these ages and the timeline so that none of the pre-cataclysm people are still around, except through flukes (weird time behavior is rare but not unheard of).

Well, that still leaves most elves and dwarves having been raised on the knees of the direct survivors, compared to humans today who have to look back several generations to find relatives who were adults in the year 1818. We're probably talking about grandparents of grandparents at that level. We have to put pieces of stuff together from several indirect sources, while the elves and dwarves that are adults today are likely the children or grandchildren of the cataclysm survivors.

I don't know about you, but my knowledge of my ancestors doesn't reach very far past my grandparents. I have a few stories of what life was like for my grandparents as children, but very little context for what their relatives were like past what you can read in history books.

Basically, the cultures of most races was probably just about eradicated, but elves and dwarves probably have the most consistent culture, because their grandparents or their parents probably told them stories about the world that was before in their days as a elvish/dwarvish child.

The bounce-back was pretty fast (once the magic came back online, about 150 years ago). Each of the 4 major nations (plus one oddball civilization) has developed reasonably well (so no gritty survival issues), but they're only just recently coming in contact with each other. Most thought they were alone. Lots of unclaimed/wild land between and among the developed settlements.


Basically, I have the following regions. They each have better names, but :shrug:.

* Council Lands (biggest nation, each region is relatively distinct in culture)
** North
** Center/South
** East
** West (only a small bit to write here, mostly similar to the center)
* Stone Throne (small variations between the northern/central/southern regions)
* Remnant Dynasty
** North
** Center/mountains
** South
* Byss (no significant regional differences, this one's small)
* Goblin collective

Next thing is how much is generally known about these places from outside? The Goblin Collective sounds like a rough place, but is it a "rough neighborhood" or a "third world country" or "don't go there if you like keeping your entrails from becoming extrails"? Or does it defy expectation and turn out to be unexpectedly nice? Has anyone in "human space" actually tried to go there and come back?

As DU noted, there's no need for "common knowledge" to be 100% accurate or reliable either.

Keltest
2018-04-25, 09:03 AM
Local politics. Who rules what land, how strong a ruler is he considered, and is he more likely to give you a medal or arrest you if you clear a group of bandits out of one of his keeps?

Guilds and their influence. Is there an adventurer's guild that requires registration? Is the local Blacksmith's guild going to come after you if you sell looted swords without a license? Does the Innkeeper's guild have a standing "no adventurers" policy? Are there other mercenary groups to join/compete with?

Regional hazards. Is the forest full of inexplicable quicksand? Are there giant trapdoor spiders? Do orcs and other random encounters occupy every fortress outside of the city walls?

Racial tensions. Who hates who, and how strongly? You say wood elves and high elves have bad blood. Do they live together in this human city? Do they fight often? Are the dwarves and humans equally sick of it and try and trample on both groups? Is there anyone who doesn't hate the gnomes?

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-25, 09:10 AM
Generally, tell me what it's like to live in each place.

What is the landscape like?

Climate. What is the weather like? The seasons?

What do people do "for a living"?

What do people eat, and when? Where does it come from? How much of their effort or income goes into getting it?

What sort of housing do they use? What are the buildings like?

Big cities, little towns, tiny villages?

How do they get around?

What are families like? How do people meet and connect and have kids and raise kids and so on?

What's the education like?

How concentrated or distributed is wealth? How socially mobile are they? How hierarchical are they? Are there castes?

How common are weapons? How common is fighting skill? What laws are there on weapons and armor?

What's the power structure? What's the goverment like? Who makes decisions, and how are they enforced? Money, loyalty, duty, force, terror... what keeps people from just doing whatever they want?

What's it like to travel there? What's it like to be a visitor or foreigner there?

Florian
2018-04-25, 09:31 AM
@PhoenixPhyre:

Let´s play little game, shall we? Look at the city and state you life in and describe to me, as an outsider, both in three paragraphs in a way that, to you, captures the essential stuff. Then grab some two randoms guys and gals off the street and do the same with them.

Faily
2018-04-25, 09:34 AM
@PP:

I think the way L5R handles it is pretty good.

1) "Life in the Empire". Rough and on the point facts what the general culture is all about, like the caste system, believing in the Mandate of Heaven, all that.
2) "The Clans". Short overview how each clan sees and understands itself, short sentence on how they see the others.
3) "Rokugan". Simple and rough explanation on what you actually see on the map, with a paragraph or two giving the barest necessary hints.

That gives a good mix of facts, fiction and prejudice.


Seconding this. L5R did a great job with the setting-info in their books over the editions.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-25, 09:43 AM
@PP:

I think the way L5R handles it is pretty good.

1) "Life in the Empire". Rough and on the point facts what the general culture is all about, like the caste system, believing in the Mandate of Heaven, all that.
2) "The Clans". Short overview how each clan sees and understands itself, short sentence on how they see the others.
3) "Rokugan". Simple and rough explanation on what you actually see on the map, with a paragraph or two giving the barest necessary hints.

That gives a good mix of facts, fiction and prejudice.

My problem with L5R, at least 4th edition, is that the setting is all flesh and no bones, all feel and no fact -- and the numbers don't add up. Armies so large that there's no way the population or land area can support them, or so small that there's no way for them to hold the territory listed, populations that won't fit into the land areas implied, etc.

(See also, Battletech, with its combination of "there are industrial planets with billions of people, where starvation will set in after a week if they don't get food imported from other planets" and "space travel involves rare and special ships, and a lot of lag time for in and out of system travel, and has a lot of dangers..." Really? So which is it? Stop trying to tell me things that are mutually exclusive.)

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-25, 10:11 AM
My problem with L5R, at least 4th edition, is that the setting is all flesh and no bones, all feel and no fact -- and the numbers don't add up. Armies so large that there's no way the population or land area can support them, or so small that there's no way for them to hold the territory listed, populations that won't fit into the land areas implied, etc.

(See also, Battletech, with its combination of "there are industrial planets with billions of people, where starvation will set in after a week if they don't get food imported from other planets" and "space travel involves rare and special ships, and a lot of lag time for in and out of system travel, and has a lot of dangers..." Really? So which is it? Stop trying to tell me things that are mutually exclusive.)

This I agree with and am trying to avoid. Magic blurs some lines, but not all/most of them.


1) Well, that still leaves most elves and dwarves having been raised on the knees of the direct survivors, compared to humans today who have to look back several generations to find relatives who were adults in the year 1818. We're probably talking about grandparents of grandparents at that level. We have to put pieces of stuff together from several indirect sources, while the elves and dwarves that are adults today are likely the children or grandchildren of the cataclysm survivors.

2) I don't know about you, but my knowledge of my ancestors doesn't reach very far past my grandparents. I have a few stories of what life was like for my grandparents as children, but very little context for what their relatives were like past what you can read in history books.

3) Basically, the cultures of most races was probably just about eradicated, but elves and dwarves probably have the most consistent culture, because their grandparents or their parents probably told them stories about the world that was before in their days as a elvish/dwarvish child.

4) Next thing is how much is generally known about these places from outside? The Goblin Collective sounds like a rough place, but is it a "rough neighborhood" or a "third world country" or "don't go there if you like keeping your entrails from becoming extrails"? Or does it defy expectation and turn out to be unexpectedly nice? Has anyone in "human space" actually tried to go there and come back?

As DU noted, there's no need for "common knowledge" to be 100% accurate or reliable either.

1) Right. The elves (high elves mostly, the wood elves never really kept more than oral histories and those were more (intentionally) metaphorical) kept a lot of knowledge. They were mostly survivors from a wide area (gathered before the cataclysm), so they've had to nail down some status things. But theirs is pretty similar to what came before. The dwarves have very accurate records for what survived, but lots didn't. And the things they wrote down weren't always cultural--basically they only wrote down facts. So they have lots of facts with less in the way of context. But their culture stayed pretty constant.

2) This is especially true for the humans and halflings of one nation--they're an amalgam of a bunch of other nations before the cataclysm. Two nations (Byssia and the Stone Throne) have good records, but the Stone Throne's records are lies mixed with distorted facts. They're having issues right now. Byssia has a mix of two cultures, really, but with decent oral history.

3) True enough. That's why I'm mostly starting the non-elves/dwarves as fresh societies. What came before is for scholars; most people don't really care. The harsh years forged a new society whose traditions are considered absolute (more so in some places than in others). But now that prosperity is here and the threats are receding, that's changing.

4) Oddly enough, the goblin collective is probably the one most studied by outsiders. They're the hosts of the only international organization so far (the Adventurer's Guild, which was founded by a bunch of adventurers about 5 years ago who used serious arm-twisting to bring the nations to a common table). This guild has lots of people from all over, so PCs might be coming from any of the 4 nations. A PC from the Council would know only rumors about Byssia, a little more about the Dynasty (that's where all the Council's dragonborn went 5 years ago to rejoin the rest of their race), and a bit more about the Throne (they're the closest). Similar patterns for other national origins.

Edit: I seem to have fallen down a rabbit-hole...currently working on clothing styles. That part's less player-directed, more so I can describe things better.

Jay R
2018-04-25, 12:41 PM
It needs to include what they know from personal experience, what they believe from stories they've heard (some of which should be legends), what the limits of their knowledge are, and why those limits exist.

Here's mine, but the game background (isolated village deep in a haunted forest) was specifically chosen to cut them off from knowledge of much of the world, so they would be exploring the unknown as soon as they left the village.

I am planning to run a D&D campaign fairly soon.

The current plan is to use the 2E rules, but I could be talked out of that. I originally wrote some of it with a Fantasy Hero rules in mind. I’m prepared to switch to original D&D, AD&D 1E, AD&D 2E, or Fantasy Hero if that’s what the players want. (I don’t know any later version well enough to run a game.)

Note: I have a basic idea for PCs, but I urge people to ask for exceptions. Some exceptions I won’t grant because they don’t fit the world, others because they would make a character too powerful. But I am quite comfortable with the idea that every character is an exception to the basic idea.

You will begin as first level characters with very little knowledge of the outside world. Your character is just barely adult – 14 years old. You all know each other well, having grown up in the same tiny village. Everyone in this village grows their own food, and it’s rare to see anybody from outside the village, or anything not made in the village. There is a smith, a village priest, but very few other specialists.

You are friends, even if you choose to have very different outlooks, because almost everybody else in the village, and absolutely everyone else anywhere near your age, are dull villagers, with little imagination.

By contrast, you and your friends sometimes stare down the road, or into the forest, wondering what the world is like.

The world is basically early medieval. You all speak a single language for which you (reasonably) have no name. If you learn another language, you’ll know more about what that means.

It’s a really small village. There are fewer than 100 people living there, which is smaller than it used to be. There are chickens, goats, sheep, a couple of oxen, but no horses or cows.

The village has a single road going out of town to the north and south, and you’ve never been on it. The only travel on it occurs when a few wagons go off to take food to market – and even that hasn’t happened in the last few seasons. Very rarely, a traveler may come through, and spend the night with the priest. You have all greedily listened to any stories these travelers tell. Your parents say this isn’t good for you – what’s here in the village is good enough for you, and all travelers are always liars, anyway.

A stream runs through the village. (This is primarily so you can learn fishing if you desire.) There are also a few wells.

The village is surrounded by a haunted forest nearby. You have occasionally gone a few hundred feet into it on a dare, but no further, and never at night. I will modify this (slightly) for any character who wishes to start as a Druid or Ranger. Nobody gets to know the modification unless they choose one of those classes.

Three times in your lifetime the village has been raided at night from the forest. You were children, and were kept safe in a cellar. Some villagers have died, but by the time you were let out, whatever the attackers were had fled or been buried.

There is very little overlap between the D&D adventurer class “Cleric” and the average priest. Most priests will have about as much magical ability as seen in medieval stories, i.e. no more than anyone else. (If you want to play a cleric, let me know. There’s a way we will handle it, but no player except one with a cleric PC will know about it.)

Similarly, not all thieves are in the Thief class, not all bards are in the Bard class, etc. Most fighters are “0th level”. There might be a fair number of 1st level Fighters; anybody else with levels will be uncommon. If you meet a bard on your travels, he will probably be a singer/harpist with no adventurer skills or class.

There is an old witch at the edge of the village. Your parents disapprove of her, call her a fraud, and are afraid of her. Everybody knows that the crop blight three years ago was because she was mad at the village.

The old folks in the village sometimes talk about how much better it was long ago. There was real travel, and real trade. Nobody knows what happened since.

You have heard many mutually conflicting tales of all kinds of marvelous heroes. You may assume that you have heard of any story of any hero you like – Gilgamesh, Odysseus, Sigurd, Taliesin, Charlemagne, Lancelot, Robin Hood, Aragorn, Prester John, Baba Yaga, Prince Ōkuninushi, Br’er Rabbit, anyone. The old stories seem to imply that occasionally there have been several Ages of Heroes. Your parents don’t think these tales are good for you. Takes your mind off farming.

DO NOT assume that you know anything about any fantasy creatures. I will re-write many monsters and races, introduce some not in D&D, and eliminate some. The purpose is to make the world strange and mysterious. It will allow (require) PCs to learn, by trial and error, what works. Most of these changes I will not tell you in advance. Here are a couple, just to give you some idea what I mean.
1. Dragons are not color-coded for the benefits of the PCs.
2. Of elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, kobolds, goblins, and orcs, at least one does not exist, at least one is slightly different from the books, and at least one is wildly different.
3. Several monsters have different alignments from the books.
4. The name of an Undead will not tell you what will or won’t hurt it.
5. The first time you see a member of a humanoid race, I will describe it as a “vaguely man-shaped creature.” This could be a kobold, an elf, or an Umber Hulk until you learn what they are.

I will answer any reasonable questions about the village and its denizens. You do not know anything that cannot be learned in a backward, isolated village. (And yes, that’s why you’ve grown up semi-isolated.)

You will create your characters by allocating 80 points, with the following conditions.
1. Each stat must be between 3 and 18.
2. Any points over 16 will cost double. (So a 17 costs 18 points, and an 18 costs 20 points.)
3. You may only have one 18, and only two 17+.
4. I strongly urge you not to have a “dump stat”. An extremely low stat will affect what you can do.

I do not object to henchmen. Since they must be a lower level than the characters, it won’t come up immediately, but if the party eventually has henchmen, there will be reasonable opportunities for them to help. Finding a henchman who isn’t a bland fighter will be pretty rare. Finding a spellcaster will be extremely unlikely.

Your character is way behind the average starting D&D character in knowledge of the world. I am making up for that by giving each PC one 3E Feat (see below), and one unusual starting item you would normally not have at the start of a game. This item must be justified by the character, and must be acceptable to me. For instance, a Wizard could start the game with a familiar. A Bard could have a well-made harp. Somebody with Animal Training could have a trained dog already (but not a horse or bird of prey.) A fighter might have a boomerang as one weapon. Come up with something fun, useful, and unusual, but not outrageous. It won’t be a magic item, but it could be something rare. [It is not armor. Your village can produce leather, studded leather, brigandine, or scale armor, but not chain or plate.]

It is perfectly reasonable that they have information that they believe, but that is not so. I told the cleric character that Detect Evil can detect evil in objects, but not people. The truth was that there were no Evil people in that tiny village. As soon as she casts it with an Evil person around, she will learn tmore about the spell.

Cluedrew
2018-04-25, 02:44 PM
(See also, Battletech, with its combination of "there are industrial planets with billions of people, where starvation will set in after a week if they don't get food imported from other planets" and "space travel involves rare and special ships, and a lot of lag time for in and out of system travel, and has a lot of dangers..." Really? So which is it? Stop trying to tell me things that are mutually exclusive.)I don't think those are actually mutually exclusive. It does create a rather... unpleasant situation were an entire planet is depending on pre-planned shipments of food from a small group of ships that may disappear due to the dangers of space travel. Which fits a lot of futuristic fallen empire stories actually.

Including a book I read that I think was Battletech. I say think because I recall it was based off a game system and is pretty close except that space travel wasn't dangerous (at least not more than the realistic problems of space flight) and the ships were not rare. They were special though, they lost the technology to make new ones, but there were a number left over.

On Common Knowledge: You should have enough information to describe a half dozen different types of normal people's daily life*, what sorts of stories people tell their grand kids, one realistic thing people worry about... I had a whole list but I have forgotten some of them. I think one "boogey-man" or irrational thing people worry about. Where does food come from... That's all I got for now.

* Say a farmer, a carpenter, a soldier, a merchant and, if you are in a "pre-woman's rights" setting**, their wives.
** If you are not just as well.

Nifft
2018-04-25, 03:12 PM
IMHO any intro common knowledge document should answer some player meta-questions, to avoid miscommunication.

- Is combat more like total war, or more like sport? Are some enemies treated as "honorable opponents" and allowed to surrender? How are captured opponents treated by various factions?

- What races exist? Are there any designated-evil races? What's the deal with designated-evil babies?

- Is there a justice system in the region where we start play? What kinds of things are investigated, and how rigorously and/or vigorously? Is "justice" more about rehabilitation, or more about punishment, or more about entertainment? --- or if the setting is horrific, more about obtaining labor?

- What sorts of behavior and/or visible attribute might get you kicked out of town? What are the local taboos? How does magic fit into this?

Stuff like that.

Selene Sparks
2018-04-25, 03:55 PM
One very important thing I've never actually seen done is how much things cost. The second people try to do anything above small-unit kick in the door type play, it is vital to know the value of food or other necessities in different locations, and beyond that, people who budget have to know how much they can spend.

This also benefits a solid number of things outside establishing common knowledge as well, but that's a different topic.

Jama7301
2018-04-25, 03:57 PM
Maybe a small primer on popular religions in the area? Something that if someone spent some time in a few villages, they could start to point out basic iconography and core tenants of a religion that they picked up through conversation and spectating.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-25, 04:01 PM
I don't think those are actually mutually exclusive. It does create a rather... unpleasant situation were an entire planet is depending on pre-planned shipments of food from a small group of ships that may disappear due to the dangers of space travel. Which fits a lot of futuristic fallen empire stories actually.

Including a book I read that I think was Battletech. I say think because I recall it was based off a game system and is pretty close except that space travel wasn't dangerous (at least not more than the realistic problems of space flight) and the ships were not rare. They were special though, they lost the technology to make new ones, but there were a number left over.


At the gap in scale I've seen, it doesn't work -- the implied amount of interstellar shipping vs the actual demands of the worlds in question simply doesn't align, and people start starving.

But, try another one -- the size of military units vs the amount of territory they're holding or fighting over. "This battle between two opposing Mech companies is for the entire planet." What?

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-25, 04:02 PM
One very important thing I've never actually seen done is how much things cost. The second people try to do anything above small-unit kick in the door type play, it is vital to know the value of food or other necessities in different locations, and beyond that, people who budget have to know how much they can spend.

This also benefits a solid number of things outside establishing common knowledge as well, but that's a different topic.

VERY good point.

Add in common incomes / wages.

And how much business is conducted in coin vs barter vs credit and such.

Cluedrew
2018-04-25, 08:21 PM
To Max_Killjoy: OK. I mean in principle you could have an rather precarious supply chain in that situation - and probably get a cool story out of it - but I don't know the numbers.

The Glyphstone
2018-04-26, 02:19 PM
At the gap in scale I've seen, it doesn't work -- the implied amount of interstellar shipping vs the actual demands of the worlds in question simply doesn't align, and people start starving.

But, try another one -- the size of military units vs the amount of territory they're holding or fighting over. "This battle between two opposing Mech companies is for the entire planet." What?

Isnt that literally how the clans do things? To them, all war is a sport, run by rigid rules of 'fairness' for clearly defined stakes.

FreddyNoNose
2018-04-26, 02:37 PM
Rumors are the first thing I put in a guide. Like a third false, third true and a third a bit in the middle. They give a nice ''character'' view of the world that is not so gamey.

I like things written by characters for the same reason. I always include those too. And like rumors the writings might not be 100% true.

I like to include one for each ''type'' of person in the area. It is also a great way to add words and speech and slang. Like the nobles of Zarlin call orcs ''tuskers'' or folk in the underworld call mercenaries ''bloodcoins".

False and conflicting information for certain.

The big deal, is not so much information that is takes away from the players learning about the world.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-26, 02:41 PM
Isnt that literally how the clans do things? To them, all war is a sport, run by rigid rules of 'fairness' for clearly defined stakes.

Sometimes.

But my comment was about the total lack of scale so often displayed regarding the IS military forces, in terms of size vs mission.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-26, 02:43 PM
False and conflicting information for certain.


I'm on the fence about this.

The in-universe justification for this document is that the characters all go through Adventuring School (a short course designed to familiarize them with the areas and with adventuring). This document is a "of course you know your own region, but here are the other regions you might find yourself in. Learn this stuff so you don't make a hash of things unintentionally."

The teachers wouldn't put in knowingly false information. They'd put in unverified information if they didn't have anything better, but it would be flagged as such. But that only applies to things they know about. I don't have a problem with including rumors or legends or some scholar's theory about what happened then. Conflicting information would be flagged as "some people say that X, while others believe Y."

Does that make sense?

GloatingSwine
2018-04-26, 03:28 PM
One very important thing I've never actually seen done is how much things cost. The second people try to do anything above small-unit kick in the door type play, it is vital to know the value of food or other necessities in different locations, and beyond that, people who budget have to know how much they can spend.

This also benefits a solid number of things outside establishing common knowledge as well, but that's a different topic.

Those things just don't cost adventurer money.

Like full plate is a short to intermediate term goal for some classes, and that would be the entire yearly income of most skilled craftsmen.

By level 6 or 7 PCs are as wealthy as minor nobles, by level 20 they're a one man national economy.

FreddyNoNose
2018-04-26, 03:35 PM
I'm on the fence about this.

The in-universe justification for this document is that the characters all go through Adventuring School (a short course designed to familiarize them with the areas and with adventuring). This document is a "of course you know your own region, but here are the other regions you might find yourself in. Learn this stuff so you don't make a hash of things unintentionally."

The teachers wouldn't put in knowingly false information. They'd put in unverified information if they didn't have anything better, but it would be flagged as such. But that only applies to things they know about. I don't have a problem with including rumors or legends or some scholar's theory about what happened then. Conflicting information would be flagged as "some people say that X, while others believe Y."

Does that make sense?

People thought falsely that the Earth was flat.

Suppose you give them information about a Monster that requires X to kill them. Later, you introduce a variation that requires Y to kill them. It would appear as false information. If you say that will never happen, do you then want to paint yourself into a corner? Are you willing to accept your game as predictable and perhaps boring because of that?

Cluedrew
2018-04-26, 04:14 PM
But the earth is flat thing cannot easily be disproved with the technology available at the time. If monster A is venerable to X it really only takes an encounter or two to find that it is false.

The one case where I could see that happening is if it was "common myth" that is information about something that doesn't exist (or is rare enough it might as well not for most people) but stories about it are passed on. But that is something that may or may not fall into common knowledge.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-26, 04:24 PM
People thought falsely that the Earth was flat.

Suppose you give them information about a Monster that requires X to kill them. Later, you introduce a variation that requires Y to kill them. It would appear as false information. If you say that will never happen, do you then want to paint yourself into a corner? Are you willing to accept your game as predictable and perhaps boring because of that?


But the earth is flat thing cannot easily be disproved with the technology available at the time. If monster A is venerable to X it really only takes an encounter or two to find that it is false.

The one case where I could see that happening is if it was "common myth" that is information about something that doesn't exist (or is rare enough it might as well not for most people) but stories about it are passed on. But that is something that may or may not fall into common knowledge.

It's also a myth that "flat earth" was a universal, uncontested view -- the debate goes back millennia, and in many times and places the curvature of the earth was widely established.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

FreddyNoNose
2018-04-26, 04:25 PM
{Scrubbed}

Nifft
2018-04-26, 04:31 PM
I'm on the fence about this.

The in-universe justification for this document is that the characters all go through Adventuring School (a short course designed to familiarize them with the areas and with adventuring). This document is a "of course you know your own region, but here are the other regions you might find yourself in. Learn this stuff so you don't make a hash of things unintentionally."

The teachers wouldn't put in knowingly false information. They'd put in unverified information if they didn't have anything better, but it would be flagged as such. But that only applies to things they know about. I don't have a problem with including rumors or legends or some scholar's theory about what happened then. Conflicting information would be flagged as "some people say that X, while others believe Y."

Does that make sense?

When I want to put in mis-information, I intentionally use two or more (usually three) conflicting accounts, right near each other, so it's obvious that the narrator isn't pushing any one of these conflicting views as true.

Off the top of my head, the best example I've seen of this is a two-page spread in the Exalted 1e core book, with a page from a Cult of the Illuminated prayerbook on one page, and an Immaculate Order doctrine poster on the facing page.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-26, 04:33 PM
Let's not argue about things like that in this thread, please?

On the broader point--

I refuse to write notes (because that's mostly what this is) that are lies without flagging them. Because I'll get confused.

I have no problem with including incomplete or partial information, but the in-universe people would have the honesty to flag this information. Something like "all the X's we've seen were vulnerable to Y." Introducing an X that isn't vulnerable to Y isn't giving false information, but if the common X isn't vulnerable, then I'd think that's false.

And anyway--I'm looking more for things about cultures and peoples in this particular case. The Monster Hunting 101 stuff is for another guide. This is more Cultural Awareness (and Legal Basics) 101.

JoeJ
2018-04-26, 04:44 PM
You should have something about the flora and fauna of the area. What plants, animals, and monsters does everybody know about? Conversely, what do the players know about, whether from real life or from reading game books, that the characters definitely have not heard of?

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-26, 04:47 PM
{Scrubbed}

**yawn**

Sorry, not biting on that bait.

/plonk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(Usenet))

Selene Sparks
2018-04-26, 04:48 PM
Those things just don't cost adventurer money.

Like full plate is a short to intermediate term goal for some classes, and that would be the entire yearly income of most skilled craftsmen.

By level 6 or 7 PCs are as wealthy as minor nobles, by level 20 they're a one man national economy.They most certainly do cost adventurers money, because rations have a listed cost. And prices extend beyond just food. Having a solid supply of diamond(and ruby, and onyx, and so on) is something I'd consider a necessity at higher levels, and the value thereof is going to change depending on whether you're in Horses-and-Plains-golia or the Dwarfy Peaks. And, as a side note, Stronghold Builder's Guide kinda disagrees with you regarding WBL vs nations, and the profession rules means to make that assertion further, you'd need to define what size you expect of a nation, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.

But the value of knowing the monetary value of items goes beyond that. Once you get above the kick-in-the-door scale, this stuff really matters. If you're marching an army, you'll need to have your logistics in order, or else you're not likely to have an army for too much longer. If you're running a kingdom, march, barony, or whatever, the value of your commodities is important. If you don't understand the economic pressures behind the behaviors of the evil empire, addressing the problem is going to be a lot harder.

In other words, as soon as you go beyond "who do I and my 3-5 buddies stab in the face to solve this problem," you need to have at least some idea of how this works if you want a world with any degree of verisimilitude.

Re:False information: It's a bad idea, because if a player reads the document and comes with bad information from it, it'll damage their trust in anything you provide. They'll be incentivized to assume that what their character knows is wrong, because of the ramifications of being incorrect, and it will generally completely defeat the point of doing what you're trying to do.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-26, 04:53 PM
Let's not argue about things like that in this thread, please?

On the broader point--

I refuse to write notes (because that's mostly what this is) that are lies without flagging them. Because I'll get confused.

I have no problem with including incomplete or partial information, but the in-universe people would have the honesty to flag this information. Something like "all the X's we've seen were vulnerable to Y." Introducing an X that isn't vulnerable to Y isn't giving false information, but if the common X isn't vulnerable, then I'd think that's false.

And anyway--I'm looking more for things about cultures and peoples in this particular case. The Monster Hunting 101 stuff is for another guide. This is more Cultural Awareness (and Legal Basics) 101.

Given the context of a school that's trying to get as close to correct as possible, and is probably run in part by retired adventurers, there's no reason to load it up with a bunch of misinformation or outright lies. If anything they'd probably flag incomplete or unknown or conflicting information as such.

In general, I have zero patience for systems or campaigns that retread the tired old "green and ignorant" trope. I have ZERO interest in playing "never been out of the Shire before" or "hey farmboy, don't stab yourself".

GM: "Roll to see if you recognize a goblin. OK, now roll to see if you know anything about goblins. OK, now roll to..."

Me: "No, you roll to see if you can come up with something that wasn't spent and worn 30 years ago."

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-26, 05:24 PM
Given the context of a school that's trying to get as close to correct as possible, and is probably run in part by retired adventurers, there's no reason to load it up with a bunch of misinformation or outright lies. If anything they'd probably flag incomplete or unknown or conflicting information as such.

Another reason I agree with this--

The school is part of an internationally-recognized Adventurers Guild. The four who made this happen were adventurers under the old system. The old system was basically "find convict with skills. Throw team of such convicts at problems with basic gear and no special training. If they die, well, there are others. If they don't...well, they'll die pretty quick." The average number of missions before death for old-school adventurers was measured in single digits.

The party really didn't like this. So this guild makes an effort to train and equip adventurers. Their goal, in fact, is to find and sort the people with potential into the ones that can be trusted to be good and those that need to get sent out for glory. So sending out the adventurers without a basic understanding of the situations they might find themselves in goes against everything they've worked for.

On the other hand, those four are really the only ones with any significant adventuring experience. Two nations have decent military experience, but mostly the people have kept inside walls and worked to avoid drawing the attention of monsters wherever possible. So they only have a limited amount of practical experience with what's really out there.

Florian
2018-04-27, 01:19 AM
My problem with L5R, at least 4th edition, is that the setting is all flesh and no bones, all feel and no fact -- and the numbers don't add up. Armies so large that there's no way the population or land area can support them, or so small that there's no way for them to hold the territory listed, populations that won't fit into the land areas implied, etc.

(See also, Battletech, with its combination of "there are industrial planets with billions of people, where starvation will set in after a week if they don't get food imported from other planets" and "space travel involves rare and special ships, and a lot of lag time for in and out of system travel, and has a lot of dangers..." Really? So which is it? Stop trying to tell me things that are mutually exclusive.)

The L5R 4th gm section tends to explain that and the intention behind it. Look for sidebars like "How many Samurai?" and "How many Ninja?". In principle, you must decide what "look and feel" you'll want to have for your specific campaign. Are Miya Heralds very common and you have a good "pony express" and information flow, or are they are rare thing and regions are isolated? Are Magistrates of any kind more like lone sheriffs that rope in budoka, yariki and doshin, or are they more like a professional police force?

I don´t know how up-to-date you are with BattleTech. Early editions were really a bit comical as the standard game and the size of the universe didn't really match. So, yeah, with Lance vs. Lance as standard game, it was really odd to have 4 guys defend a planet against an invasion of 4 other guys.
Now in contrast, going forward to the Jihad-era, the setting and game changed from "Wild West Wanabee" towards being way more realistic, including "downgrading" Mechs, combined arms strategy, more fitting numbers regarding planetary defenses, garrisons, logistics and such.
The downside is a change in pace and gameplay. "Yo, mercs, defend that planet!" used to be a good, light-hearted game session and potentially done in one session, now you'd actually have to grab things like the Chaos Campaign rules and play it out to at least give the verisimilitude of size and scale.

Satinavian
2018-04-27, 03:08 AM
They most certainly do cost adventurers money, because rations have a listed cost. And prices extend beyond just food. Having a solid supply of diamond(and ruby, and onyx, and so on) is something I'd consider a necessity at higher levels, and the value thereof is going to change depending on whether you're in Horses-and-Plains-golia or the Dwarfy Peaks. And, as a side note, Stronghold Builder's Guide kinda disagrees with you regarding WBL vs nations, and the profession rules means to make that assertion further, you'd need to define what size you expect of a nation, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.

But the value of knowing the monetary value of items goes beyond that. Once you get above the kick-in-the-door scale, this stuff really matters. If you're marching an army, you'll need to have your logistics in order, or else you're not likely to have an army for too much longer. If you're running a kingdom, march, barony, or whatever, the value of your commodities is important. If you don't understand the economic pressures behind the behaviors of the evil empire, addressing the problem is going to be a lot harder.

In other words, as soon as you go beyond "who do I and my 3-5 buddies stab in the face to solve this problem," you need to have at least some idea of how this works if you want a world with any degree of verisimilitude.

Re:False information: It's a bad idea, because if a player reads the document and comes with bad information from it, it'll damage their trust in anything you provide. They'll be incentivized to assume that what their character knows is wrong, because of the ramifications of being incorrect, and it will generally completely defeat the point of doing what you're trying to do.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51a7kNjQJEL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
Like this sourcebooks with hundreads of prices for pseudomedieval goods at commercial amounts, neatly combined with rules about producer prices, consumer prices, trade routes, tarrifs and neat lists of what exactly is produced where in the game world shows, some RPGs try to tackle this stuff.

This was still a failure though. Turns out, RPG writers often don't have the professional background to write some both detailed and convincing simulation of a whole game world economy. And it gets even worse if they try to fit in previous estalished prices.

I mean, they really tried and players went and calculated the money a typical farmer could earn over a year considering the given yield of the land, the given farming technology, the stated tax burdon, the consumption of the farmer family and the grain prices and complained that certain kinds of plants would not be viable where they supposed to be grown while others would be basically a goldmine. And that there was always some kind of mismatch to the given bread price.


I prefer a twofold system :
- actually large scale economic activity is handled by some abstact system that doesn't care what the detailed prices actually are and if they make sense considering production chains.
- a guideline for the value of money based on lifestyle costst for archetypical lifestyles in the setting.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-27, 06:39 AM
The L5R 4th gm section tends to explain that and the intention behind it. Look for sidebars like "How many Samurai?" and "How many Ninja?". In principle, you must decide what "look and feel" you'll want to have for your specific campaign. Are Miya Heralds very common and you have a good "pony express" and information flow, or are they are rare thing and regions are isolated? Are Magistrates of any kind more like lone sheriffs that rope in budoka, yariki and doshin, or are they more like a professional police force?


Yeap, I've read that section.

One of L5R 4th's flaws was that it tried to be all things pseudo-Japanese to all gamers, instead of picking one thing and doing it coherently.

Cluedrew
2018-04-27, 08:16 AM
GM: "Roll to see if you recognize a goblin. OK, now roll to see if you know anything about goblins. OK, now roll to..."

Me: "No, you roll to see if you can come up with something that wasn't spent and worn 30 years ago."Critical Success! (http://www.farnorthcomic.com/comic/looking-for-blood)

Tanarii
2018-04-27, 08:23 AM
Are you writing for players that live in the area?

If not, almost nothing. Rumors. Setting Guides are fun to read, but they usually provide a wealth of information and really for GMs.

If so, still almost nothing. Rumors outside their own home town or city, just more plentiful than above. They may not even have a clear idea of who rules their country. Focus details on the write up of the home-base town or city. Maybe have a little extra blurb you can hand out to characters who have a background as a trade merchant's guard, and another one for sailors, since they will have traveled more extensively.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-27, 08:31 AM
Are you writing for players that live in the area?

If not, almost nothing. Rumors. Setting Guides are fun to read, but they usually provide a wealth of information and really for GMs.

If so, still almost nothing. Rumors outside their own home town or city, just more plentiful than above. They may not even have a clear idea of who rules their country. Focus details on the write up of the home-base town or city. Maybe have a little extra blurb you can hand out to characters who have a background as a trade merchant's guard, and another one for sailors, since they will have traveled more extensively.

I'm writing it for multiple audiences.

1st (and primarily): Me. So I can assess what someone who grew up in that area would know without needing a roll and do so consistently. Also so I can describe things consistently.

2nd: Players that want to read more so that they can be more immersed. I have a short-form player's guide (character building/house rules + a paragraph about each nation + an optional religion guide) that I hand out in session 0--that's the extent of the "mandatory" reading.

3rd: as an in-fiction artifact (the textbook for a mandatory class in the process to become a licensed Adventurer, which all PCs are).

For purpose 1, it seems that more information is better, as long as enough gaps are left to give players room to build and change things.

For purpose 2, it seems that having cultural, social, and economic trends, as well as geography, religion, and dress patterns might be useful.

For purpose 3, I want to avoid out-and-out lies and only include rumors if they're flagged as such.

As a matter of DM philosophy, I strongly prefer giving players more information over giving them less. In fact I tend to err on the side of describing everything--my knowledge rolls are more "how much do you know," not "do you know anything at all."

Tanarii
2018-04-27, 08:40 AM
As a matter of DM philosophy, I strongly prefer giving players more information over giving them less. In fact I tend to err on the side of describing everything--my knowledge rolls are more "how much do you know," not "do you know anything at all."You've got different goals from me then. I strongly prefer giving players almost no information outside their immediate home, which they never interact with in-session anyway. Everything else is there to be discovered.

I generally don't use "do you know something" state-of-the-character's-knowledge rolls in RPGs. If an (adventuring) player doesn't know it, they should spend some time to have the character should go research it. Either between session, or go "research" in person as part of an adventure.

(Edit: From your past posts, I'm assuming D&D here. In a setting like Shadowrun the adventures mostly happen in the players home. In Ninja's & Superspies or Heroes Unlimited or any modern setting the characters are quite worldly at the beginning of the game. In both cases, information is easy to get and communications are quite fast and widespread. None of this holds true in the typical D&D setting. Adventures are out-side the home base, and communications are virtual nil.)

Pelle
2018-04-27, 08:46 AM
As a matter of DM philosophy, I strongly prefer giving players more information over giving them less.

Depends on how receptive the players are for a lot of background info. My experience is that most players don't want to read or aren't able to remember all stuff, although a few would like as much as possible. Since you are preparing a lot, do make an executive summary as well for the people not bothering to read everything :smallsmile:

Keltest
2018-04-27, 08:52 AM
You've got different goals from me then. I strongly prefer giving players almost no information outside their immediate home, which they never interact with in-session anyway. Everything else is there to be discovered.

I generally don't use "do you know something" state-of-the-character's-knowledge rolls in RPGs. If an (adventuring) player doesn't know it, they should spend some time to have the character should go research it. Either between session, or go "research" in person as part of an adventure.

(Edit: From your past posts, I'm assuming D&D here. In a setting like Shadowrun the adventures mostly happen in the players home. In Ninja's & Superspies or Heroes Unlimited or any modern setting the characters are quite worldly at the beginning of the game. In both cases, information is easy to get and communications are quite fast and widespread. None of this holds true in the typical D&D setting. Adventures are out-side the home base, and communications are virtual nil.)

I'm with Phoenix here. There should almost never be a situation where they encounter something native (or at least common) in the area theyre in and know nothing about it. You don't have to give them the exact DR numbers and what breaks through them, but saying something like "these guys can take a lot of punishment from ordinary weapons" is something they would probably know if they were trained in an adventurer's academy.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-27, 08:55 AM
You've got different goals from me then. I strongly prefer giving players almost no information outside their immediate home, which they never interact with in-session anyway. Everything else is there to be discovered.

I generally don't use "do you know something" state-of-the-character's-knowledge rolls in RPGs. If an (adventuring) player doesn't know it, they should spend some time to have the character should go research it. Either between session, or go "research" in person as part of an adventure.


Why? That seems confining and not conducive to getting into the world. Why build something you don't want to share? Without the background knowledge that any sane adult who didn't grow up entirely in one tiny backwater would have, the players can't exercise agency in a meaningful manner. Everything's reduced to guessing games, gotchas, and trial and error. It leaves everything up to the mercy of the DM. How do you know what you don't know in order to research something?
Playing blind seems to me to lead to incoherence and inability to engage with the setting.

And yes, even a medieval free-man (adventurers are not serfs or peasants in the main) would know quite a bit about the world around them. The whole "no one ever traveled or knew anything" is a pernicious stereotype with no real grounding in fact).

The relevant setting parts (and the adventurer's guild) were designed by players who specifically wanted to avoid that "going in blind" trope. Because they themselves were sent in blind. And didn't like it. It made sense in their context, but not now.

It seems like a distinction between a narrative-focused play-style and one focused on testing oneself against challenges. I'm very much on the first end. More information is better, as long as it's not boring info dumps. I've had players read my setting notes (not the specific adventure ones but the more general ones) and they've suggested things, or did things based on that knowledge that dramatically made the game and the setting more cohesive and real. In fact, I publish all my setting notes (except for the adventure-specific parts, and those I'll post after the adventure is over) on a publically available site. I have players asking for lore so that they can play their characters better. And these are wonderful things in my book.

Edit: and most of what I'm focusing on here isn't monsters and other adventuring facts. Because no one knows those very well. It's more cultures, religions, laws, taboos, economics, stuff like that that you can't move through society at all without learning. Look at the 5e backgrounds--except the Hermit and the Outlander, they're all part of society at more than the "ignorant peasant from the backwoods" level. They'd know a lot just by living, just like competent adults today know a lot about their local society just by being there.

Tanarii
2018-04-27, 09:39 AM
Depends on how receptive the players are for a lot of background info. My experience is that most players don't want to read or aren't able to remember all stuff, although a few would like as much as possible. Since you are preparing a lot, do make an executive summary as well for the people not bothering to read everything :smallsmile:Same. My experience is very few players are interested in setting, outside of what they discover in play. If they want that, they go read a book.


Why? That seems confining and not conducive to getting into the world. Why build something you don't want to share? Without the background knowledge that any sane adult who didn't grow up entirely in one tiny backwater would have, the players can't exercise agency in a meaningful manner. Everything's reduced to guessing games, gotchas, and trial and error. It leaves everything up to the mercy of the DM. How do you know what you don't know in order to research something?
Playing blind seems to me to lead to incoherence and inability to engage with the setting.First of all, I don't build a setting that I don't want to share. Everything in my settings are designed to be used in play. If it's not something that can be used in play, I don't build it. There's no point. So it can discovered in play.

Second of all, a common trope & hugely traditional part of the excitement of D&D (in particular) is excitement of exploration of the unknown. I like that and try to keep it in the game. Players eat that stuff up.

The second one is the "why", but it's based on the first one. I'm not spending time developing anything that isn't potential adventure & session-time related anyway.


And yes, even a medieval free-man (adventurers are not serfs or peasants in the main) would know quite a bit about the world around them. The whole "no one ever traveled or knew anything" is a pernicious stereotype with no real grounding in fact).I'm not buying it. OTOH it's not like I'm a student in the matter. :smallwink: More importantly, almost all players will agree if you tell them this is why they don't know much about the setting. It makes them nod sagely and say "of course, everyone knows this is a truism". Even if it isn't. So it enhances versimiltude for more players than it destroys.


The relevant setting parts (and the adventurer's guild) were designed by players who specifically wanted to avoid that "going in blind" trope. Because they themselves were sent in blind. And didn't like it. It made sense in their context, but not now.Ya. Totally different goals. I'm not knocking your goal with any of the above. I'm explaining why my goal works for me.


Edit: and most of what I'm focusing on here isn't monsters and other adventuring facts. Because no one knows those very well. It's more cultures, religions, laws, taboos, economics, stuff like that that you can't move through society at all without learning. Look at the 5e backgrounds--except the Hermit and the Outlander, they're all part of society at more than the "ignorant peasant from the backwoods" level. They'd know a lot just by living, just like competent adults today know a lot about their local society just by being there.That's the kind of stuff I meant when I said knowing about your home base (if you run adventures there, which I rarely do). My approach is rumors for outside that. BTW when I say rumors I mean information gathered informally by word of mouth. Obviously a collection of adventurers writing a guide for their Adventuring Guild will have person experiences and money to pay for actual researched information to put in it.

------------

So ... to answer your question, if I was playing in your campaign, part of an adventurer's guild, and was being exposed to such a book in my training ... I'd want to know stuff that's going to make it so I can't screw up while I'm traveling (taboos & religion & power politics), and stuff that makes it easier to do basic things (lodging. And as an adventurer, things to do. Basically, a travel guide with a bit of "who's in charge" stuff.

Or maybe check out the old BECMI Known World Gazetteers for some ideas? Many of them had a player's section separate from the DM's section, it might give you some ideas of what TSR thought was useful. It also evolved as time went on, so check a few of them. (Edit: Now that I think about it, I highly recommend doing exactly this. The Gazateers were what changed D&D from dungeons to country/world for m. So it's probably what you're looking for.)

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-27, 05:57 PM
So here's the bare-bones version of a sub-national region writeup--I'd like feedback.

Dreamshore
The northern area of the Council, mostly forested hills and mountains along the southern and western edges of the Sea of Dreams and south of the Orc-Lands.

Religion: Syncretic, with Seasons worship and animist ancestor veneration.
Demographics: 60% wall-builders (humans and halflings), 35% puun ihmisia (wood elves), 5% dwarf
Climate: Similar to New England.
Economy: orchards, logging, trapping. Barley and oats more than wheat. Sheep and goats predominate, cows are shaggy and mostly for milk or cheese. Lots of preserved vegetables (pickled). Hard cider is a main export (along with lumber).
Government: Ostensibly guilded, but people look to the Coldwind family for guidance. Disaffected from Council, considers them to be corrupt oligarchs. Significant separatist movements.
Architecture: packed earth houses with thatched roofs. Stone in Baile Craan. Small windows. Large eve overhangs to keep paths clear during winter. Buildings clustered close together.
Culture: Serious and reserved in public, boisterous in private. Marital fidelity is important. Heavy drinking (both sexes). Relative equality of sexes.
Traveler housing: Inns are rare--travelers usually stay with locals. Guest-right is a big thing. Payment in coin is appreciated (at standard rates), but exotic gifts are better. The matriarch is in charge. Address any comments or requests to her, because it’s her house.
Taboos and superstitions:
* Never greet someone across a threshold. It’s bad fortune.
* Spiders are the servants of the Storm Serpent, killing them brings the storms.
* Always greet the honored spirits of the house and then the matriarch when you enter a friendly house.
Threats:
* Packs of wolves led by dire wolves or Wargs.
* Very occasional winter wolves
* Giant spiders in some areas, reports of phase spiders
* Ruins, often undead infested.
* Very occasional Broken-Tooth orc raids in north part.
* Bandits are becoming more of a threat.

Jama7301
2018-04-27, 06:34 PM
I dig the superstitions and taboo section.

For Climate, do you plan on using real world locales for those for the rest of your regions, or was this some mental shorthand, instead of writing out a seasonal breakdown?

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-27, 08:26 PM
I dig the superstitions and taboo section.

For Climate, do you plan on using real world locales for those for the rest of your regions, or was this some mental shorthand, instead of writing out a seasonal breakdown?

More a shorthand at this point. Cold wet winters, humid summers. I could look up the proper description, but...

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-27, 09:13 PM
I'm not buying it. OTOH it's not like I'm a student in the matter. :smallwink: More importantly, almost all players will agree if you tell them this is why they don't know much about the setting. It makes them nod sagely and say "of course, everyone knows this is a truism". Even if it isn't. So it enhances versimiltude for more players than it destroys.


The "people lived and died within an area less than a day's journey" trope is just another quasi-scholarly myth. See also, not bathing, rampant total illiteracy, etc.

"But it's a lie they already believe" strikes me as a particularly pernicious form of illusionism.

Satinavian
2018-04-28, 12:17 AM
So here's the bare-bones version of a sub-national region writeup--I'd like feedback.looks good as a barebone overview.

For a local PC i would like some more details on a smalle scale to be able to tie my background to and to talk about. But as a small writeup for foreigners it is quite fitting. That is probably the reason why it looks like a real world tourist guide intro.

Two sections that might be missing are "history" containing important events that shaped the country and "foreign relations/politics" which links all the small regions to each other.


I also assume there is a map somewhere. Players should also have a rough idea about population/settlement density and the size of big cities they visit/use in their background. But there are other was to achieve that than "total population numbers", real world analogues work at least as well here.

Tanarii
2018-04-28, 08:52 AM
The "people lived and died within an area less than a day's journey" trope is just another quasi-scholarly myth. See also, not bathing, rampant total illiteracy, etc. Who said anything about a day's journey.


"But it's a lie they already believe" strikes me as a particularly pernicious form of illusionism.Lol wut? It has nothing to do with illusionism. You've got your head stuck up the General roleplaying forum long winded and pointless debates about roleplaying styles if you're gonna try and drag my comment into one of them like that. :smallyuk:


So here's the bare-bones version of a sub-national region writeup--I'd like feedback.I love it from the point of view of a quick-reference to look at a few times right before going in to adventure in the area, maybe as a reminder while there. Very helpful.

I'd hate to read a bunch of those about different areas. They would quickly blend together and I wouldn't remember any of it. Of course, that's a problem with pretty much setting guide read from front to back. But what you wrote would make a great introduction for a longer piece.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-28, 08:59 AM
I love it from the point of view of a quick-reference to look at a few times right before going in to adventure in the area, maybe as a reminder while there. Very helpful.

I'd hate to read a bunch of those about different areas. They would quickly blend together and I wouldn't remember any of it. Of course, that's a problem with pretty much setting guide read from front to back. But what you wrote would make a great introduction for a longer piece.

My guide as a whole is a website; I intend for each region to be a separate article with more words in it in paragraph form with a map and links to the long-form descriptions of bigger nations, cultures, religions, etc. Most regions have a significant settlement (city or large town) or two that also will have a short write-up.

I may include the bullet-point summary, but it will be set off (possibly in spoiler tags if I can make that work with my CMS).

Cluedrew
2018-04-28, 10:11 AM
The "people lived and died within an area less than a day's journey" trope is just another quasi-scholarly myth. See also, not bathing, rampant total illiteracy, etc.Who said anything about a day's journey.My parents actually. They went to some "old" places in the world and talked about how the language changed every days journey. That is a days journey by foot, now with cars you could pass though a couple of language regions in a day. Now they were hardly researching it, so I don't know how accurate it is but I doubt it is completely wrong.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-28, 10:25 AM
Who said anything about a day's journey?


You did.

It's precisely the myth you were defending as more truthy and believable than the facts.



And yes, even a medieval free-man (adventurers are not serfs or peasants in the main) would know quite a bit about the world around them. The whole "no one ever traveled or knew anything" is a pernicious stereotype with no real grounding in fact).




I'm not buying it. OTOH it's not like I'm a student in the matter. :smallwink: More importantly, almost all players will agree if you tell them this is why they don't know much about the setting. It makes them nod sagely and say "of course, everyone knows this is a truism". Even if it isn't. So it enhances versimiltude for more players than it destroys.




The "people lived and died within an area less than a day's journey" trope is just another quasi-scholarly myth. See also, not bathing, rampant total illiteracy, etc.


If you're going to employ a Victorian/modern myth as one of the assumptions of the world you're building, it might be a good idea to actually be familiar with that myth -- "The Dung Ages" is just as much of a modern garbage trope as "Ye Good Olde Days". A great deal of what's been passed down to us as "true" about the time period in question is either projecting specific aspects of the early modern / renaissance period back into the past, near-worship of the Greco-Roman "golden age", and/or Victorian self-aggrandizement.

~~~~



"But it's a lie they already believe" strikes me as a particularly pernicious form of illusionism.



Lol wut? It has nothing to do with illusionism. You've got your head stuck up the General roleplaying forum long winded and pointless debates about roleplaying styles if you're gonna try and drag my comment into one of them like that. :smallyuk:


Letting your players believe a lie because it's convenient or because they already believe it, doesn't make it any less of a lie.

.

Tanarii
2018-04-28, 10:34 AM
You did.

It's precisely the myth you were defending as more truthy and believable than the facts. I did not. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Nor do not accept that the lack of easy communication resulting in a lack of solid knowledge about relatively distant locations, that is commonly accepted and understood by players to be the case in a preindustrial society that isn't heavily organized on a large scale, it is a "lie". Nor that your facts are more truthy or actually facts.

Edit
What you've done here, Max, is invent goalposts that I never set. Or a strawman I never made. Then objecting to my comments on those grounds.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-28, 10:48 AM
Why? That seems confining and not conducive to getting into the world. Why build something you don't want to share? Without the background knowledge that any sane adult who didn't grow up entirely in one tiny backwater would have, the players can't exercise agency in a meaningful manner. Everything's reduced to guessing games, gotchas, and trial and error. It leaves everything up to the mercy of the DM. How do you know what you don't know in order to research something?

Playing blind seems to me to lead to incoherence and inability to engage with the setting.

And yes, even a medieval free-man (adventurers are not serfs or peasants in the main) would know quite a bit about the world around them. The whole "no one ever traveled or knew anything" is a pernicious stereotype with no real grounding in fact).

The relevant setting parts (and the adventurer's guild) were designed by players who specifically wanted to avoid that "going in blind" trope. Because they themselves were sent in blind. And didn't like it. It made sense in their context, but not now.

It seems like a distinction between a narrative-focused play-style and one focused on testing oneself against challenges. I'm very much on the first end. More information is better, as long as it's not boring info dumps. I've had players read my setting notes (not the specific adventure ones but the more general ones) and they've suggested things, or did things based on that knowledge that dramatically made the game and the setting more cohesive and real. In fact, I publish all my setting notes (except for the adventure-specific parts, and those I'll post after the adventure is over) on a publicly available site. I have players asking for lore so that they can play their characters better. And these are wonderful things in my book.


I want my players to have a good feel for what it's like to live in that world, and to know what their characters would know as people who grew up there. It gives them a solid grounding to for roleplaying their characters.

To me, the other side comes across as so treating the character as nothing more than a playing piece, as a blank avatar for the player within the game, rather than as a "fictional" person in a "fictional" world.




Edit: and most of what I'm focusing on here isn't monsters and other adventuring facts. Because no one knows those very well. It's more cultures, religions, laws, taboos, economics, stuff like that that you can't move through society at all without learning. Look at the 5e backgrounds--except the Hermit and the Outlander, they're all part of society at more than the "ignorant peasant from the backwoods" level. They'd know a lot just by living, just like competent adults today know a lot about their local society just by being there.


Yeap -- most of what we've been talking about isn't regarding whether monster Z is hurt by salt or silver more, or telling the difference between specific subtypes of goblinoids.

I do think it's very telling that talking about giving players setting information causes some gamers to immediately react as if you're giving the players a list of "how to beat monster Z" information... seems reflective of a very specific set of assumptions about RPGs, very "dungeon clearing centric".

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-28, 11:33 AM
I did not. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Nor do not accept that the lack of easy communication resulting in a lack of solid knowledge about relatively distant locations, that is commonly accepted and understood by players to be the case in a preindustrial society that isn't heavily organized on a large scale, it is a "lie". Nor that your facts are more truthy or actually facts.

Edit What you've done here, Max, is invent goalposts that I never set. Or a strawman I never made. Then objecting to my comments on those grounds.


Nope.

What I've done here is point out and name the underlying myth that you're perpetuating -- if you look back at how I phrased my post, it's clearly naming the trope, not "putting words in your mouth".

As PhoenixPhyre put it, "The whole "no one ever traveled or knew anything" is a pernicious stereotype with no real grounding in fact."

If you're going to be worldbuilding a quasi-Euro-medieval setting, my very suggestion would be to familiarize yourself with all the stupid myths and half-truths that have been piled on that span of time and place, and purge them from your setting completely.

http://www.medievalists.net/2014/06/15-myths-middle-ages/

JoeJ
2018-04-28, 04:11 PM
So here's the bare-bones version of a sub-national region writeup--I'd like feedback.

Dreamshore
The northern area of the Council, mostly forested hills and mountains along the southern and western edges of the Sea of Dreams and south of the Orc-Lands.

Religion: Syncretic, with Seasons worship and animist ancestor veneration.
Demographics: 60% wall-builders (humans and halflings), 35% puun ihmisia (wood elves), 5% dwarf
Climate: Similar to New England.
Economy: orchards, logging, trapping. Barley and oats more than wheat. Sheep and goats predominate, cows are shaggy and mostly for milk or cheese. Lots of preserved vegetables (pickled). Hard cider is a main export (along with lumber).
Government: Ostensibly guilded, but people look to the Coldwind family for guidance. Disaffected from Council, considers them to be corrupt oligarchs. Significant separatist movements.
Architecture: packed earth houses with thatched roofs. Stone in Baile Craan. Small windows. Large eve overhangs to keep paths clear during winter. Buildings clustered close together.
Culture: Serious and reserved in public, boisterous in private. Marital fidelity is important. Heavy drinking (both sexes). Relative equality of sexes.
Traveler housing: Inns are rare--travelers usually stay with locals. Guest-right is a big thing. Payment in coin is appreciated (at standard rates), but exotic gifts are better. The matriarch is in charge. Address any comments or requests to her, because it’s her house.
Taboos and superstitions:
* Never greet someone across a threshold. It’s bad fortune.
* Spiders are the servants of the Storm Serpent, killing them brings the storms.
* Always greet the honored spirits of the house and then the matriarch when you enter a friendly house.
Threats:
* Packs of wolves led by dire wolves or Wargs.
* Very occasional winter wolves
* Giant spiders in some areas, reports of phase spiders
* Ruins, often undead infested.
* Very occasional Broken-Tooth orc raids in north part.
* Bandits are becoming more of a threat.

Nice summary. Does New England climate here imply other parts of New England natural environment? For example, does it mean there are no tigers or mammoths?

PhoenixPhyre
2018-04-28, 05:11 PM
Nice summary. Does New England climate here imply other parts of New England natural environment? For example, does it mean there are no tigers or mammoths?

That was just intended as a general weather indication. Cold wet winters, humid summers. Basically. Dora and fauna are different.

Florian
2018-04-29, 03:34 AM
My parents actually. They went to some "old" places in the world and talked about how the language changed every days journey. That is a days journey by foot, now with cars you could pass though a couple of language regions in a day. Now they were hardly researching it, so I don't know how accurate it is but I doubt it is completely wrong.

It´s actually the other way around. What you can see all across Europe is how vast numbers of languages have transformed into more or less coherent and unified languages with different regional dialects as one of the last remnants of that process. So, it´s not like that German changes every few regions, it´s more accurate to say that over time, some hundred different languages blended together to form German as we now speak it.

That basically could never have happened when people were as immobile as it is often claimed.