How to gauge the power of Assume Supernatural Ability?

[gogogome]

This feat has garnered the interest of the players at my table and I was wondering when would it cross over from fun gimmick to unplayably powerful territory.

Using ASA to gain the efreeti's wish ability is definitely unplayably powerful.
Using ASA to gain flight is definitely a fun gimmick especially since it's intermittent due to the required will save.
In my previous thread, using ASA for perpetual gargantuan animated objects early game is really powerful, but it becomes completely worthless at higher levels, so I think it's a fun gimmick that makes a character very powerful early but becomes a wasted feat slot later similar to reserve feats.

Anyone have an idea on how to create a criteria that can determine whether a Su ability acquired by this feat is OP or acceptable?

The only criteria I could think of is...
1. If it breaks WBL wide open (i.e. infinite wishes) it's broken.

[Telonius]

You're absolutely right that not all Supernatural Abilities are created equal. I think you're on the right track with looking at WBL. I'd try to assign a gp value to what the particular Supernatural Ability is giving. If you had to pay for the ability using the Magic Item Creation rules, how much would it be? Then, figure out how many gp you're comfortable with giving a character who takes the feat; maybe vary this by level, like higher-level PCs can assume more expensive Supernatural Abilities.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Compare to what level of spell the Supernatural Ability is equivalent to. Use that to determine if it's too powerful, especially if it compares to an extremely strong spell of that level (wish) or a stupidly weak one (meteor swarm). Then you have to take into account permanent benefits (WBL boosting, perma-minions, or perma-buffs), or if it's a fairly throwaway ability, even if it's somewhat useful (magic missile).

[Falontani]

Where would the nymph's divine grace esque ability fall? Dryad's blinding beauty? Gaze attacks? Breath weapons?

[Crake]

An efreeti's wish is Sp not Su, so you can't get it with assume supernatural ability. The only creature that has wish as an Su ability as far as I'm aware is the zodar, but that's hardly game breaking at 1/year, and it's one level away from when you'd be able to just cast wish innately anyway.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's a bit of an eyeball-it situation on abilities that don't have direct equivalents, so ratings will be a bit subjective. As for the following, I'd say...


Where would the nymph's divine grace esque ability fall?Assuming you mean unearthly grace, this is slightly better than the paladin's divine grace, which they get at 2nd level but anyone taking this with a feat probably has a far heavier focus on Cha than a paladin. I'd say a 3rd or 4th level spell. Probably lower it slightly due to requiring both a feat and the ability to shift into a nymph, which requires further resource expenditure. So 3rd level spell, approximately.


Dryad's blinding beauty?Nymph's blinding beauty, I believe you mean. Blindness/deafness is a 2nd level spell, but it has more utility while having far fewer targets. Plus, blinding beauty affects everyone, not just enemies. Meanwhile, Chain Spell is a +3 level adjustment metamagic feat that affects only enemies, as it's assumed that you won't be blinding allies, meaning the adjustment should be lowered a bit as a result. So I'd say blinding beauty is approximately the equivalent of a 4th level spell.


Gaze attacks? Breath weapons?Depends entirely on what they do.

[gogogome]

An efreeti's wish is Sp not Su, so you can't get it with assume supernatural ability. The only creature that has wish as an Su ability as far as I'm aware is the zodar, but that's hardly game breaking at 1/year, and it's one level away from when you'd be able to just cast wish innately anyway.

Weird, I swear it was a Su ability. 1/year is still game breaking. I wish for *insert_obscenely_powerful_epic_item* and even if you just sell the item instead of using it you break the game wide open.

[Nifft]

Assuming you mean unearthly grace, this is slightly better than the paladin's divine grace, which they get at 2nd level but anyone taking this with a feat probably has a far heavier focus on Cha than a paladin. I'd say a 3rd or 4th level spell. Probably lower it slightly due to requiring both a feat and the ability to shift into a nymph, which requires further resource expenditure. So 3rd level spell, approximately.

Sirine's Grace (SpC) is a Bard 4 / Druid 5 spell that gives you a bonus to Dexterity & Charisma, plus you get to add your Charisma as a Deflection bonus to AC, plus a few other things, but only for 1 round/level.

So 4th level seems reasonable for a longer-duration Unearthly Grace spell-equivalent.

[Goaty14]

Weird, I swear it was a Su ability. 1/year is still game breaking. I wish for *insert_obscenely_powerful_epic_item* and even if you just sell the item instead of using it you break the game wide open.

Wish can only be used to get an item of less than 25,000 GP*. Note that's less than a +6 ability score item, and you'd make more money killing off kobolds for a year than 12,500 gp (items sell for half).

*Unless you want the DM to be like "Oh, the item appears in front of you... attached to <uber-epic balor>. Have fun >:D"

What were the designers thinking!? I was wrong, you can only create a NONmagical item up to 25,000 GP, or create any magic item. EXCEPT you have to pay double the xp cost to make the item, which gives limits... Ha!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sirine's Grace (SpC) is a Bard 4 / Druid 5 spell that gives you a bonus to Dexterity & Charisma, plus you get to add your Charisma as a Deflection bonus to AC, plus a few other things, but only for 1 round/level.

So 4th level seems reasonable for a longer-duration Unearthly Grace spell-equivalent.Sirine's grace gives a lot more than unearthly grace, and Assume Supernatural Ability requires a lot more resources than a single casting of sirine's grace does. I think 3rd level should be fine.

[Nifft]

blinding beauty is approximately the equivalent of a 4th level spell. In the BoED, there is a 4th level spell which gives you that effect -- and it's even named Blinding Beauty.


Sirine's grace gives a lot more than unearthly grace, and Assume Supernatural Ability requires a lot more resources than a single casting of sirine's grace does. I think 3rd level should be fine.

3rd level Bard / 4th level real caster.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In the BoED, there is a 4th level spell which gives you that effect -- and it's even named Blinding Beauty.

3rd level Bard / 4th level real caster.And Assume Supernatural Ability requires A.) a feat, B.) a spell slot, and C.) a rather substandard physical form for combat. Plus, the paladin ability comes online at 2nd level, three levels before 3rd level spells.

What's your point?

[Nifft]

What's your point?

The point of my first line was to tell you that your estimation of blinding beauty appeared to be spot-on.

The point of my second line was to disagree about your estimation of unearthly grace -- but you already knew that, didn't you? What are you really asking?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The point of my first line was to tell you that your estimation of blinding beauty appeared to be spot-on.

The point of my second line was to disagree about your estimation of unearthly grace -- but you already knew that, didn't you? What are you really asking?Just messing with you, really. But given the fact that it lays between the paladin's ability and sirine's grace, and has significantly more mitigating factors, I certainly wouldn't be bothered at placing it at 3rd level spells.

And as I said, it's an eyeball-it situation, and some people might consider it to be higher or lower due to circumstances.

Either way, it should probably be more of a range of levels where it's useful without being overpowering, and I honestly don't think a slightly souped up 2nd level paladin ability is "overpowered" at 5th level.

[gogogome]

What were the designers thinking!? I was wrong, you can only create a NONmagical item up to 25,000 GP, or create any magic item. EXCEPT you have to pay double the xp cost to make the item, which gives limits... Ha!

Su abilities ignore all components, including XP.


And Assume Supernatural Ability requires A.) a feat, B.) a spell slot, and C.) a rather substandard physical form for combat. Plus, the paladin ability comes online at 2nd level, three levels before 3rd level spells.

What's your point?

You forgot D), requires a high will save every round to use in combat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You forgot D), requires a high will save every round to use in combat.Right. And it gives you penalties, to boot.

[Quertus]

Right. And it gives you penalties, to boot.

So, what's the gp value of those penalties?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So, what's the gp value of those penalties?Should cost the same as getting a +2 to all of those things the feat grants a penalty on. And given that a luckstone grants +1 to some (but not all) of those and costs 20,000 gp...

[Crake]

Su abilities ignore all components, including XP.

While that's true, if you pay 0xp, then the item you may is worth 0gp, because the value added is double the xp value you spent, after all the magic item needs to coalesce it's magical energy from SOMEWHERE. If it's not from you, the technically you're making a greater effect wish, by trying to coalesce that magical energy from the universe, or by taking an existing item and bringing it to you instead.

[magicalmagicman]

I think some people are overreacting.

It is widely considered that the best ASA possible is the Choker's quickness ability, which is hardly "unplayably broken". 2nd best are the Beholder rays.

As for the Su wish, Zodar is 16 hd so you'll only be acquiring it via Shapechange, which doesn't need ASA.

As you mentioned powerful ASAs at low levels become useless at higher levels, and you can't reliably pass the will save for consistent use in combat.

So all in all, ASA is a good feat, but not broken or TO or whatever.

[RoboEmperor]

I agree with magicalmagicman. ASA is balanced.

Take the choker for example. You need to waste a round first to cast a polymorph spell. Then you have to pass a will save every round for that action all the while you suffer -2 to everything during combat. Considering the resources involved I think you're entitled to that 2nd standard action.

Don't gauge the power, just allow it all.

[Eldariel]

I agree with magicalmagicman. ASA is balanced.

Take the choker for example. You need to waste a round first to cast a polymorph spell. Then you have to pass a will save every round for that action all the while you suffer -2 to everything during combat. Considering the resources involved I think you're entitled to that 2nd standard action.

Don't gauge the power, just allow it all.

Well, you don't lose the action since turning into a Choker grants you the extra standard action back. And Alter Self would be 10 min/level and PAO would be permanent. It's pretty ridiculous (Eye Rays is even worse TBH; a stupid number of free action spells each round), but since Polymorph in general is busted, that isn't all that bad on top of it TBH.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, you don't lose the action since turning into a Choker grants you the extra standard action back. And Alter Self would be 10 min/level and PAO would be permanent. It's pretty ridiculous (Eye Rays is even worse TBH; a stupid number of free action spells each round), but since Polymorph in general is busted, that isn't all that bad on top of it TBH.

You're forgetting the will save. It's like less than 50% chance to pass it at low levels so you don't get the extra standard action back half the time, and the Choker is an awful physical form. Bad stats, bad natural AC, small size, etc.

I'll defer to your judgement on eye rays since I haven't really read up on that trick.

[Eldariel]

You're forgetting the will save. It's like less than 50% chance to pass it at low levels so you don't get the extra standard action back half the time, and the Choker is an awful physical form. Bad stats, bad natural AC, small size, etc.

I'll defer to your judgement on eye rays since I haven't really read up on that trick.

Well, Alter Self doesn't alter your stats, you're a Wizard so you don't particularly care about your AC, small size is mostly a boon with the hit bonus for Rays and the Hide bonus in general, etc. For Alter Self it's very good, and e.g. Elan, Synad and Daelkyr Half-Blood exist as LA +0 Aberrations. Alter Self in particular has enough duration that you can reasonably expect to cast it out of combat (even Extended) and have it up for the encounter at the start so at worst you're doing normal and you get to supernova every time you can make the DC 19 Will-save. Given you have at least 13 Wis and at least 4 levels in a good Will-class, isn't all that bad; you're looking at +5 minimum (+3 with the penalty) though 14 Wis, Cloak of Resistance +1 [by the time you hit level 4 spells, Greater Resistance moods that part], and any potential generic bonuses make you fairly good at it soon enough. On level 7 you have 5 base, +1-+2 Wis, +3 Resistance for +9-+10. One-two PRCs (say Master Specialist and Divine Oracle) add +2 more each. Keen Intellect and you're looking at +18 or so (20 base Int with +2 item) giving you 100% chance of making the check. For Polymorph, yeah, 1 min/level is a bit pesky.

As for Beholders, the whole Eye Rays thing is a single ability so you get a ridiculous number of booms. And they're all free actions. You have 10 rays.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, Alter Self doesn't alter your stats, you're a Wizard so you don't particularly care about your AC, small size is mostly a boon with the hit bonus for Rays and the Hide bonus in general, etc. For Alter Self it's very good, and e.g. Elan, Synad and Daelkyr Half-Blood exist as LA +0 Aberrations. Alter Self in particular has enough duration that you can reasonably expect to cast it out of combat (even Extended) and have it up for the encounter at the start so at worst you're doing normal and you get to supernova every time you can make the DC 19 Will-save. Given you have at least 13 Wis and at least 4 levels in a good Will-class, isn't all that bad; you're looking at +5 minimum (+3 with the penalty) though 14 Wis, Cloak of Resistance +1 [by the time you hit level 4 spells, Greater Resistance moods that part], and any potential generic bonuses make you fairly good at it soon enough. On level 7 you have 5 base, +1-+2 Wis, +3 Resistance for +9-+10. One-two PRCs (say Master Specialist and Divine Oracle) add +2 more each. Keen Intellect and you're looking at +18 or so (20 base Int with +2 item) giving you 100% chance of making the check. For Polymorph, yeah, 1 min/level is a bit pesky.

Look at how much you invested to get it up to 100%. Is why I'm saying the 2nd standard action is totally justified.

[Eldariel]

Look at how much you invested to get it up to 100%. Is why I'm saying the 2nd standard action is totally justified.

Well, it's not like you're investing specifically in that; you're investing in general utility that also happens to work for ASU. And a 2nd standard action all day that early is pretty bonkers on a Wizard; hell, it's something people use Shapechange for and that's at least a level 9 spell! But yes, it of course does highlight the slot limit a Wizard might be working under. However, there are other very potent uses for the feat (the Jovoc I've mentioned a few times for instance) as well.

Let me put it this way: if there were a 3-feat chain that said "you may take an extra standard action each round", I don't think there's a class in the game that would skip that.

[RoboEmperor]

Let me put it this way: if there were a 3-feat chain that said "you may take an extra standard action each round", I don't think there's a class in the game that would skip that.

If those feats require spellcasting then I'm pretty sure a ton of ppl will skip that because they hate magic. Your reasoning is the same as "If this class does more physical damage than the other class, I don't think anyone would play that other class"

In anycase I don't think we're disagreeing about anything here XD

[Eldariel]

If those feats require spellcasting then I'm pretty sure a ton of ppl will skip that because they hate magic. Your reasoning is the same as "If this class does more physical damage than the other class, I don't think anyone would play that other class"

In anycase I don't think we're disagreeing about anything here XD

Well, I think the analogy falters a bit as I was proposing something that could be added onto any existing chassis; of course magic is better than non-magic and some people enjoy the challenge of trying to make do without, but I'd assume it would be optimal for basically anyone to pick it up :smalltongue: But yeah, no large disagreements at any rate.

[gogogome]

I'm inclined to agree that ASA is fine when used to the full extent of its power. It was the Efreeti wish that really worried me but as Crake kindly pointed out it's a SLA not a Su ability.

Thanks for the interesting debate everyone!