Building a Hexblade - First Level Sorcerer?

[Jake92]

Hi,

I have been looking around at different hexblade builds, looking for the most optimized build and have noticed that none that I found start their first level in Sorcerer (Draconic ideally for the extra hp and free mage armor). With the extra spell slots for Shield, extra cantrips for utility and proficiency in Con saves for when their attacks do get through your shield spell, why don't Charisma based spellcaster builds start Sorcerer?

Thank you

[JNAProductions]

Maybe you don't want to be slightly behind in spell levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe you don't want to be slightly behind in spell levels.
This. It's by no means a BAD multiclass, but every dip means a delay in main class features, which is always a tradeoff and can be a real issue around gameplay-tier transitions. (When the Wizard is throwing Fireballs, the Fighter is making Extra Attacks, and the Cleric has a bunch of skele-friends, you'll have a rough time with just an ASI)

[Asmotherion]

I've been asking myself the exact same question, as well as "how people can play anything besides a Sorcerer3/Warlock2 multiclass as a basic chassis, and then build around that"

Turns out not everyone thinks exactly like us! Weird, I know, because we're the epitope of cool and awesome in what D&D 5e has to offer, but hey: Real Charisma Casters learn to embrace one thing above all first: Diversity ;)

Be happy that not everyone is just like you, 'cause this makes you a more unique masterpiece.

[Ganryu]

If your DM allows, I suggest Stone Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana. I'm running one right now, and what I do is ridiculous. My AC is 19, I always have blur up, I have incredible HP, and have shield. If a battle goes badly, I have Devil's sight and Darkness for a quick escape for the party. I'm 3 Stone Sorcerer/ 2 Hexblade Warlock right now.

[Sigreid]

Personally I would do hex 2 or 3 then go hard for sorc. That gives you basic survivability and combat strength up front. Thematically I like the idea of the pact awakening the sleeping power that was always there as well.

[Vogie]

Lots of reasons:

Delayed spellcasting
Delayed Pact Boons & invocations
Initial benefit goes away as the game goes longer and levels get higher.
Other ways of getting the same thing - the Magic initiate feat can give another casting of shield, for example, as well as extra cantrips; Armor of Shadows already gives "free" Mage armor
Entire playstyles can be delayed - If your concept is wielding a 2 handed weapon or longbow, for example, You're missing out on the Hex warrior bonus for an entire extra level.

You may see more of it if the campaigns were not starting at levels 1-3... A character that starts the game at 5th or 6th level is much more likely to "start" with a Sorcerer, Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Cleric or Bard dip.

[lilika]

In most cases multiclassing is a trap for the above mentioned reasons. Just take the multiclass version and compare it to the single class version at every lvl and see what you gain and what you lose. When I have done this I tend to like the pure class version better. I'm sure there are exceptions and if you do this and find you like the multiclass version better at the most lvls then go for it.

[strangebloke]

The extra HP isn't. You get three same number of hit points as if you just took warlock levels.

Just one level is kind of useless. 2-3 levels is quite expensive.

I'd say that... Past level 11 is where warlock starts becoming weak. Mystic arcanum is just not that good, and the flexibility of font of magic starts looking a whole lot better.

[Jake92]

I guess since specificity is the soul of narrative, we don't usually allow UA. A while back I decided that since our games never make it past mid-tier three, I wanted my players to be able to explore feats and multiclassing more but not have the randomness of rolling a low power character, so I modified the standard array to 17 16 15 12 10 8 and my players, who all also DM, have largely adopted this array. So that's what stats I'd have to start with.

As far as spellcasting levels go, I want to build a hexblade; I'll be up front in the thick of it taking and dishing out damage.

I'm planning variant human polearm master to start and if I go sorcerer I get proficiency in con saves for my hexes, darknesses, elemental weapons, etc. and extra lvl 1 spells slots for shield. My idea is that I'm a young physically weak guy that plays a lot with a quarterstaff (focus), unfortunately with an 8 in strength doesn't do well in melee but can cast spells with the quarterstaff from this awakened magics I have. Then make a pact with a magical sentient sword that I don't have (I don't get it either, but I like the pact mechanics) to be a hexblade for 12-13 levels (life drinker at 12 and I've always wanted to make an army of zombies at 13...) That's 14 levels so the campaign will probably be over.

In there I'll take pact of the blade to get a glaive at level four along with improved pact weapon and darkness, great weapon master at 5, thirsting blade at 6, bump charisma at nine, life drinker at 13 and that's where my hexblade plateaus. Three attacks with advantage (darkness, if blindsight or true sight elemental weapon for +2 to hit and an extra 2d4 damage): 2x 1d10+20 (charisma+charisma+GWM) + 1d4+20. Plus any shenanigans if I use my hexblade curse...

I just think that without the first level in sorcerer (not having the extra castings of shield and con proficiency (which 2-6 extra points help), I'll have a harder time at it.

Thoughts?

[intregus]

Personally I think PAM is overrated. You could go full warlock and take the resilient feat instead

[Malifice]

Hi,

I have been looking around at different hexblade builds, looking for the most optimized build and have noticed that none that I found start their first level in Sorcerer (Draconic ideally for the extra hp and free mage armor). With the extra spell slots for Shield, extra cantrips for utility and proficiency in Con saves for when their attacks do get through your shield spell, why don't Charisma based spellcaster builds start Sorcerer?

Thank you

You can add Con saves as well for that 1st level in Sorc.

The main issue is the fact you're delaying spell access and invocations by one level. Thirsting blade and Eldritch smite being the big ones (presuming Blade pact).

[Citan]

Hi,

I have been looking around at different hexblade builds, looking for the most optimized build and have noticed that none that I found start their first level in Sorcerer (Draconic ideally for the extra hp and free mage armor). With the extra spell slots for Shield, extra cantrips for utility and proficiency in Con saves for when their attacks do get through your shield spell, why don't Charisma based spellcaster builds start Sorcerer?

Thank you


Lots of reasons:

1. Delayed spellcasting
2. Delayed Pact Boons & invocations
3. Initial benefit goes away as the game goes longer and levels get higher.
4. Other ways of getting the same thing - the Magic initiate feat can give another casting of shield, for example, as well as extra cantrips; Armor of Shadows already gives "free" Mage armor
5. Entire playstyles can be delayed - If your concept is wielding a 2 handed weapon or longbow, for example, You're missing out on the Hex warrior bonus for an entire extra level.


1. Factually true, although this is not for nothing, confer point 3.

2. Globally true, but there is the "swap opportunity" to consider: to take your example of Mage Armor, for a non-Hexblade Warlock (those get medium armor and shields so I don't see any valid reason to pursue MA, even for a full DEX build, unless specific stealth/inflitration build)...
A Warlock will need to pick the Mage Armor Invocation at char level 2, so technically has only 1 choice of Invocation left.
A Warlock/Draconic Sorcerer will only get Invocations at char level 3, but since he has "natural MA", he can freely pick the second invocation. So technically you get the same benefits but "earlier".

3. Globally untrue: it obviously depends on your spell selection and archetype/features, but to take the case of Sorcerer...
- Spells like Shield / Absorb Elements or even utilities like Comprehend Languages stay useful throughout your career (as many 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells ^^).
- Cantrips naturally scale, and you get 4 of them. Of course at higher level, during encounter-light days you should rarely use cantrips for combat, but in straining adventures when you have to use slots scarcely having more scaling options is good.
So technically you make a trade of quicker access to higher level spells to instead expand your bases. This can be largely worth for example if a character wants many options.
The only requirement, although an important one, is rightly choosing those options in the first place, because you won't be able to change them.

Same with constitution proficiency: it stays completely relevant throughout your life, especially for a caster, because it means more successful concentration saves, so less early ended spells, so better resource management.
So technically you make a trade of quicker access to higher instant output to instead improve the life of each cast, which may, or not, end as a globally better "ouput per day" (obviously not something that can be theorycrafted too many variables).

4. More or less true at least in this specific example, but actual opportunity cost is widly variable.
One level of Sorcerer brings 2*1st level slots, 2 more spell known, 4 cantrips, Constitution proficiency, and interesting feature.
Even if you had feats replicating any kind of feature, feats just can't bring that much that quickly.
The only real loss here is Wisdom proficiency and capstone, everything else is a matter of delay, which can be a dealbreaker, or not, really depends on your games.

5. Completely true, and that's kinda the determining factor imo: multiclass should be considered only when/because it can accelerate the realization of a character concept (unless you really know what you're doing ;)).



You may see more of it if the campaigns were not starting at levels 1-3... A character that starts the game at 5th or 6th level is much more likely to "start" with a Sorcerer, Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Cleric or Bard dip.
Completely true. ;)


In most cases multiclassing is a trap for the above mentioned reasons. Just take the multiclass version and compare it to the single class version at every lvl and see what you gain and what you lose. When I have done this I tend to like the pure class version better. I'm sure there are exceptions and if you do this and find you like the multiclass version better at the most lvls then go for it.
That's far too strong of a statement imo.
Confer my illustrations above and the numerous threads on the forum.
Multiclassing means bending the expected progression, so of course it should not considered a "normal" or "easy" choice. But a trap? Certainly not.
Simple, quick and illustrative example: a Monk taking a single-level in Tempest Cleric before level 5.
Seems horrific right? Monk is one of the few classes that craves for ASI and for which every level straight to 20 brings much. As a martial, you should normally want Extra Attack ASAP. And Tempest's proficiencies are completely wasted.
BUT, let's consider the following...
1. Monk is a class that has no spellcasting apart from archetypes, and this guy wants to go Open Hand. So basically, he has a resource, concentration, which would be unused thus wasted his whole life.
2. Cleric brings Bless, which is a great buff that pleases everyone, but that creates strong opportunity cost for a Cleric to sustain at higher levels when he gets other great concentration spells.
In addition, Bless affects attack rolls, so Monk under it gains a +5<>+20% chance to hit on every attack. And Monk has 2 attacks straight from level one, 3 from level 2 onwards.
Assuming a level 5 character (4/1), for 2 encounters lasting 5 rounds in average, barring the first round (casting Bless) and Ki-costing features like Flurry of Blows it's quite a decent amount of attacks that are improved (2*4*2 = 16).
3. Cleric also brings Shield of Faith, which can help much Monk at low levels if Bless is unneeded, pushing a decent 16 to a respectable 18 AC.
4. Cleric also gives Guidance which always has some use, and Sacred Flame to get a much better "ranged attack" than what Monk would usually get.
5. Tempest gives a damaging reaction, which is enough at low levels to steer off some creatures of trying (again) to attack you.
6. Cleric being a prepared caster also gives you access to lots of utility spells for non-fight heavy days (like those days in which you pull social strings or otherwise gather info).
So...

Yeah, you'll have be forced to wait 7500 XP more before you get Extra Attack and Stunning Strike...
But until then, each and every adventuring day, you will have been significantly more reliable in dealing damage or surviving while potentially alleviating the plate of a Cleric pal, less undermined when facing distant/covered/flying enemies, and much more useful in non-combat situations.

Whether that is worth the trade is up to oneself to decide.
For me, in decent/large parties (which I define as 4-5/+) this would probably not be. In small groups (<=3), much probably. ;)


-----
@OP: as strange as may be after all my argumentation in favor of multiclassing, in your specific case, so far I don't see any *compelling* reason to warrant the multiclass.
In other words, that dip would be good, but maybe not good enough.
Reasons behind...
1. Spellcasting
- Shield: learning Shield is great: "just" getting a few more uses per long rest, is good but not enough. Indeed, as a Warlock you would probably stop using it once you get 2nd level slots or at the latest 3rd levels, because you would (legitimately) feel it a waste. Dip gives you 2 slots per long rest. But Magic Initiate would give you 1.
- Mage Armor: Hexblade gets good AC already: unless you wanted to build an infiltrator, I see no reason to boycott medium AC (1 point difference won't matter that much later, especially since Hexblade gets great defensive features against his cursed enemy).
- other spells: you didn't talk about any other spell that you would really want/need for your character concept.

2. Cantrips
Four more cantrips are great, but here too, you just expressed liking the idea of more cantrips, without detailing... If there are only one or two cantrips you'd really like, then Magic Initiate could be enough.

3. Constitution proficiency:
That is the only strong immediate benefit for you, but its potency will depend on many factors, including how heavy your use of concentration spells would be, how much you would push yourself towards danger, if there are people besides you to draw attacks, and how often you could expect to face enemies using CON-related effects.
And this is something you could get with Resilient, as early as level 4. :)

>>>> If...
a) All you *really* want from Sorcerer cannot be attained by just combining Resilient and Magic Initiate
b) Or if it could be but you have other plans for your ASIs / don't want to wait level 8 to get everything...
Then the dip is worth it.
Otherwise, I'd say it isn't. ;)

[Sception]

Free mage armor is generally wasted, since between medium armor proficiency and hex warrior, hexblades have little motivation to invest in more than 14 dex.

A couple low level daily slots for shield are certainly appreciated, but in and of themselves probably aren't enough to warrant the delay to warlock spell & invocation progression.

Now, if you're eventually going to take sorcerer up to at least level 3 for metamagic, then it starts making a strong case for itself. Hexblade/Sorcerer multiclassing works very nicely. But a three-plus level divergence isn't just a short delay but a significant setback in warlock progression, so while I do think you get more than you give up with this combination, it's by no means without cost.

If you are planning to multiclass sorcerer, the question of what to take at first level is a bit open. Sorcerer is probably the better call for con save proficiency, but there's something to be said for starting with the general weapon and armor type that you plan to keep up, else you can run into a rather clunky transition when the party wakes up one day and their backfield blaster is a weapon using melee warrior now. Plus while anyone can manifest latent sorcerous abilities whenever, role playing the acquisition of a warlock pact after the game has started can also be awkward.


But purely mechanically, sure, most hexblades are well served by a 3+ level side trek into sorcerer, and if they're going to take such a side trek then taking first level as sorcerer is probably the best way to go. As for origin, draconic is decent more for the elemental damage boost than the scales, but shadow might offer more relevant mechanical and thematic synergy long term.

[Jake92]

For feats and ASIs I was thinking GWM at 5 , +2 Cha at 9, Warcaster at 13 and medium armor master at 17 (since my Dex will be 16 anyway). After the 12-13 levels of warlock (not really sure if I NEED Finger of Death), I was thinking I'd grab four more levels of sorcerer and then finish off in fighter (defense probably, maybe GWF). I know action surge is really late, but since I haven't ever played a campaign from 1-20, I didn't think through the fourth tier options too in depth.
Cantrips: message, mage hand, minor illusion, firebolt (setting the world around me on fire, trolls)
Spells: shield, silent image or feather fall

[kenposan]

Hi,

I have been looking around at different hexblade builds, looking for the most optimized build and have noticed that none that I found start their first level in Sorcerer (Draconic ideally for the extra hp and free mage armor). With the extra spell slots for Shield, extra cantrips for utility and proficiency in Con saves for when their attacks do get through your shield spell, why don't Charisma based spellcaster builds start Sorcerer?

Thank you

My favorite build is what you describe. Draconic Sorc means not wasting an invocation on Armor of Shadows, and you use the spell slots for non scaling spells like Shield. One of the biggest bonuses to me is the four cantrips, which is the Warlock total cantrips. To me, the one level delay is worth it for that.

On the role play perspective, I like the idea that you were born a sorcerer, but with very little power, so you make a deal with a patron to get more.

[Citan]

For feats and ASIs I was thinking GWM at 5 , +2 Cha at 9, Warcaster at 13 and medium armor master at 17 (since my Dex will be 16 anyway). After the 12-13 levels of warlock (not really sure if I NEED Finger of Death), I was thinking I'd grab four more levels of sorcerer and then finish off in fighter (defense probably, maybe GWF). I know action surge is really late, but since I haven't ever played a campaign from 1-20, I didn't think through the fourth tier options too in depth.
Cantrips: message, mage hand, minor illusion, firebolt (setting the world around me on fire, trolls)
Spells: shield, silent image or feather fall
Well, if you're set on taking several levels of Sorcerer in the end (and therefore are fine with being stalled in "higher level spell" progression for long time), and considering you already planned several ASI in advance, while playing a melee-heavy Hexblade with GWM (and I suppose Hex/Magic Weapon on top), then starting as Sorcerer is largely worth it. :)

I may even argue that alternating back to Sorcerer after Warlock 9 or Warlock 11 would be actually better because you'd get Metamagics but honestly any opinion on "best leveling" would be defendable. It's hard to "project" so far away. So I'd say keep your initial idea (Sorcerer 1 > Warlock X > whatever), just staying open to a change of heart after char level 10. ;)