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ZephyrTempest
2018-04-25, 10:20 PM
Hello! New here to this forum, but I occasionally lurk here to get some ideas for character builds. I have been playing around with an idea that I am sure that I can make better, and was hoping to get some advice.

I am looking to build a character that takes advantage of sneaking up, grappling opponents, dragging them away, attacking multiple times, and critting with sneak attacks. Crits are more easily achieved by shoving opponents prone during a grapple, and getting advantage against them. This is expanded by taking the Champion fighter subclass (for a crit range of 19-20), as well as the Elven Accuracy feat with a finesse weapon. With Fighter 11, I get access to 3 attacks on my turn. I take Rogue to 9 for access to spell-casting through Arcane Trickster (Enlarge), expertise for monster grapple checks, and sneak attack dice for my crits. The end-result is me rolling 9d20s during my turn when attacking a prone target, giving me about a 60% chance to crit each turn (I am bad at math, so forgive me if I am wrong).

I go High Elf to qualify for Elven Accuracy, and relevant ability scores. I would likely leverage a rapier with a free hand to grapple and wear studded leather. Keep a shield and a longbow for backup against targets I can't grapple effectively...AC ends up being fairly high in a pinch. See below for some of the other specific choices:

Relevant Feats:
-Elven Accuracy (Gives more dice rolls and a Dex ASI)
-Tavern Brawler (Helps get more grapples)
-Warcaster (Helps with most spell-casting elements of the build)

Relevant Spell Choices:
-Create Bonfire (Holding someone down in fire...seems good, just requires concentration)
-Enlarge (Useful for advantage on grapples, as well as grappling larger opponents..also requires concentration though :()

Challenges to Overcome / Questions:
1. How do I deal with targets too big to grapple/shove? (Enlarge doesn't cover everything)
2. What is the ideal stat breakdown? (Currently going Dex>Str=Con=Int>Wis>Cha)
3. Is High Elf the ideal elf race choice for this build?
4. Is there a way to get another finesse attack using my bonus action? (I considering dropping 1 level of Rogue for Monk to use martial arts as my bonus action...but unfortunately Unarmed Strike doesn't qualify for Sneak Attack)
5. Are there any other spells I should consider that are specific to the core concept of the build? (currently just taking a bunch of self-utility spells that don't touch saving throws)

Look forward to hearing any thoughts or opinions that can help me out! Thanks in advance!

Crgaston
2018-04-26, 08:53 AM
I think you are pretty on point with this. I might go Wood Elf just for the move speed. You also might consider the Tavern Brawler feat which would let you make an unarmed strike and then grapple as a bonus action. It’s not much extra, but it’s a little. Otherwise I think just pumping Str, Dex and Con with your ASI’s will be the best thing.

You can start 14/16/14/12/11/8 with wood elf point buy and pick up Resilient Wis at some point. Alert certainly doesn’t hurt either.

PartyChef
2018-04-26, 08:59 AM
Challenges to Overcome / Questions:
1. How do I deal with targets too big to grapple/shove? (Enlarge doesn't cover everything)
2. What is the ideal stat breakdown? (Currently going Dex>Str=Con=Int>Wis>Cha)
3. Is High Elf the ideal elf race choice for this build?
4. Is there a way to get another finesse attack using my bonus action? (I considering dropping 1 level of Rogue for Monk to use martial arts as my bonus action...but unfortunately Unarmed Strike doesn't qualify for Sneak Attack)
5. Are there any other spells I should consider that are specific to the core concept of the build? (currently just taking a bunch of self-utility spells that don't touch saving throws)


Clever build. One of my first 5e characters was a Barb/Rogue grappler (I wish I had gone this route for enlarge).
1. Grappling can occasionally be shut down hard by really big things or incorporeal things (start developing a hatred for ghosts now). Luckily, as a fighter/rogue you have other options, I would bonus action hide and longbow snipe the non-grapple targets.
2. I would actually prioritize Strength over Dexterity. You need strength for grappling and you can still use Strength to attack with finesse weapons and still trigger sneak attack. (only requirement is that the weapon be a finesse weapon, you don't actually have to use dex). You will have the armor proficiency that dex only really helps you with your stealth checks and you can expertise those and augment them with spells.
3. The race could be a number of things. I hate not having darkvision so I tend to avoid human, but the extra feat could land you tavern brawler early, resilient in wisdom to keep from being mind-controlled, or medium armor mastery if you want really good AC. If you agree with my concept that strength is better, a half orc would actually be great since you get that and the extra dice on sneak attacks. Other notable races are ones that have double carrying capacity (Goliaths/Firbolgs come to mind) as some DMs are sticklers when it comes to dragging people in grapple.
4. Scimitar of Speed is the easy answer although I wouldn't worry too much about bonus actions, you have cunning action and tavern brawler to fill that up 75% of the time (dash is great for just moving the target into bad spots or away from allies).
5. Invisibility, obviously, blur, if you could snag hex somehow that one is great for your dpr and makes your target suck at escaping your grapple. Enhance Ability is also nice for when your in a dungeon and can't get big but still want advantage to strength checks.

Finally, I might not go with Warcaster, as you wont have a lot of spells and will want to sneak attack with your Opportunity Attacks, so the only benefit is advantage to Concentration saves. If you start rogue, picking up Resilient (con) will probably be better. If you start fighter, obviously you already have proficiency, but I am guessing other feats of ASI may be more useful. Not sure if you are going to roll stats or point buy, but obviously if you have great stats and con save proficiency already, warcaster is probably worth it just to guarantee you retain enlarge when you get hit.

smcmike
2018-04-26, 09:12 AM
Tavern Brawler isn’t quite as useful as it seems at first, I think. It reads as a bonus action grapple attack, but what it’s really providing you is an extra unarmed attack, since you could just use the triggering attack to grapple without the feat. That’s not very useful for your build, since an unarmed attack uses strength and doesn’t qualify for any of the special abilities you have. Also, as a Rogue, you’ve often got a use for your bonus action already.

I also don’t see Warcaster ad particularly necessary for this build. Just pump Con if you are worried about losing concentration.

It’s weird to say this, but if you really want to focus on grappling and crit-fishing, Grappler isn’t that bad. Use an attack to grab, move and bonus dash to drag, and you still have two attacks, with advantage, to land your big crit.

Sentinel is also nice, giving you more stickiness and a chance for a second sneak attack per round. Mobile is good for your plan of dragging people. Skulker is thematic for ambushes, though depends on the campaign.

PartyChef
2018-04-26, 10:09 AM
Tavern Brawler isn’t quite as useful as it seems at first, I think. It reads as a bonus action grapple attack, but what it’s really providing you is an extra unarmed attack, since you could just use the triggering attack to grapple without the feat. That’s not very useful for your build, since an unarmed attack uses strength and doesn’t qualify for any of the special abilities you have.

Sentinel is also nice, giving you more stickiness and a chance for a second sneak attack per round. Mobile is good for your plan of dragging people. Skulker is thematic for ambushes, though depends on the campaign.

The trick to effectively using Tavern Brawler is to use a Shove(knock prone) to trigger it and then Grappling with the bonus action. That way you get the locked advantage to your remaining attacks and don't have to actually use an unarmed or improvised weapon attack.

I agree with those other feats, if you are thinking Skulker confirm how your DM will be using stealth and light, it can be one of the best feats for a sneak or a waste depending on rule enforcement. Mobile is also great if you want to rush towards the boss/mage for the grapple, you just have to attack the minions blocking your way and you get an Opportunity Free path to the boss who you can grapple and shut down next turn. Speaking of which, Silence is a great spell for grapplers who want to turn a caster into a useless pile of mush.

Shield Mastery is a good alternative to Tavern Brawler as you can Shove (prone) as a bonus action. The problem with it is you have to have a shield taking up your hand so it kinda kills your ability to grapple unless you have a very lenient dm. Good for a crit fish build, not so much for a grapple build.

djreynolds
2018-04-26, 10:30 AM
Why not run a brute archetype instead of champion?

Tavern brawler gives you proficiency in improvised weapons and unarmed strikes

You now go with 1d4+strength punches, and add the brutes extra damage to all weapons you are proficient in.

Finally we have a strength based armored monk, at 20th level 1d4+5 plus 1d10. At 4th level 1d4+strength plus 1d4, better than a monk.

And with a level of rogue, go ahead and get expertise. Also grab TWF style, and fightwith a fist and dagger so you have your strength from for fist and finesse from your dagger for sneak attacks

smcmike
2018-04-26, 11:00 AM
The trick to effectively using Tavern Brawler is to use a Shove(knock prone) to trigger it and then Grappling with the bonus action. That way you get the locked advantage to your remaining attacks and don't have to actually use an unarmed or improvised weapon attack.

I would check this with your DM before taking the feat. As written, it doesn’t look Tavern Brawler can be triggered by a shove. A reasonable DM may allow it, however, which would definitely make it worth taking for this build.


Why not run a brute archetype instead of champion?

Tavern brawler gives you proficiency in improvised weapons and unarmed strikes

You now go with 1d4+strength punches, and add the brutes extra damage to all weapons you are proficient in.

Finally we have a strength based armored monk, at 20th level 1d4+5 plus 1d10. At 4th level 1d4+strength plus 1d4, better than a monk.

And with a level of rogue, go ahead and get expertise. Also grab TWF style, and fightwith a fist and dagger so you have your strength from for fist and finesse from your dagger for sneak attacks

This doesn’t seem to fit very well with the OPs concept, which is crit-fishing. Also, TWF does not work with a fist.

ZephyrTempest
2018-04-26, 02:18 PM
I think you are pretty on point with this. I might go Wood Elf just for the move speed. You also might consider the Tavern Brawler feat which would let you make an unarmed strike and then grapple as a bonus action. It’s not much extra, but it’s a little. Otherwise I think just pumping Str, Dex and Con with your ASI’s will be the best thing.

You can start 14/16/14/12/11/8 with wood elf point buy and pick up Resilient Wis at some point. Alert certainly doesn’t hurt either.

Thanks for the insight. Wood Elf is definitely a thought for the movespeed - only reason I took High Elf initially was the Int ASI seemed relevant to Arcane Trickster...but honestly at this point Int seems more like a dump stat with my spell choices. Right now the only real benefit it gives me is another Wizard cantrip (right now I am eyeing Chill Touch, Create Bonfire, Mage Hand, and Minor Illusion). Dropping Int would probably make Chill Touch and Create Bonfire substantially less useful though.


Clever build. One of my first 5e characters was a Barb/Rogue grappler (I wish I had gone this route for enlarge).
1. Grappling can occasionally be shut down hard by really big things or incorporeal things (start developing a hatred for ghosts now). Luckily, as a fighter/rogue you have other options, I would bonus action hide and longbow snipe the non-grapple targets.
2. I would actually prioritize Strength over Dexterity. You need strength for grappling and you can still use Strength to attack with finesse weapons and still trigger sneak attack. (only requirement is that the weapon be a finesse weapon, you don't actually have to use dex). You will have the armor proficiency that dex only really helps you with your stealth checks and you can expertise those and augment them with spells.
3. The race could be a number of things. I hate not having darkvision so I tend to avoid human, but the extra feat could land you tavern brawler early, resilient in wisdom to keep from being mind-controlled, or medium armor mastery if you want really good AC. If you agree with my concept that strength is better, a half orc would actually be great since you get that and the extra dice on sneak attacks. Other notable races are ones that have double carrying capacity (Goliaths/Firbolgs come to mind) as some DMs are sticklers when it comes to dragging people in grapple.
4. Scimitar of Speed is the easy answer although I wouldn't worry too much about bonus actions, you have cunning action and tavern brawler to fill that up 75% of the time (dash is great for just moving the target into bad spots or away from allies).
5. Invisibility, obviously, blur, if you could snag hex somehow that one is great for your dpr and makes your target suck at escaping your grapple. Enhance Ability is also nice for when your in a dungeon and can't get big but still want advantage to strength checks.

Finally, I might not go with Warcaster, as you wont have a lot of spells and will want to sneak attack with your Opportunity Attacks, so the only benefit is advantage to Concentration saves. If you start rogue, picking up Resilient (con) will probably be better. If you start fighter, obviously you already have proficiency, but I am guessing other feats of ASI may be more useful. Not sure if you are going to roll stats or point buy, but obviously if you have great stats and con save proficiency already, warcaster is probably worth it just to guarantee you retain enlarge when you get hit.

Thanks a lot for these. Unfortunately I can't prioritize Strength, as Strength-based attacks don't work with Elven Accuracy (otherwise I probably would have looked at Barbarian as a great choice). The scimitar is an AMAZING find! After I have a target grappled and dragged far away, I definitely wanted an option to use my bonus action on...and this gives me 12d20 on a dedicated attack turn, which is amazing.


Tavern Brawler isn’t quite as useful as it seems at first, I think. It reads as a bonus action grapple attack, but what it’s really providing you is an extra unarmed attack, since you could just use the triggering attack to grapple without the feat. That’s not very useful for your build, since an unarmed attack uses strength and doesn’t qualify for any of the special abilities you have. Also, as a Rogue, you’ve often got a use for your bonus action already.

I also don’t see Warcaster ad particularly necessary for this build. Just pump Con if you are worried about losing concentration.

It’s weird to say this, but if you really want to focus on grappling and crit-fishing, Grappler isn’t that bad. Use an attack to grab, move and bonus dash to drag, and you still have two attacks, with advantage, to land your big crit.

Sentinel is also nice, giving you more stickiness and a chance for a second sneak attack per round. Mobile is good for your plan of dragging people. Skulker is thematic for ambushes, though depends on the campaign.

I don't really like the Grappler feat, as I definitely don't want to be restrained myself. Shoving them prone effectively will give me the advantage I need. I definitely forgot about Sentinel - thank you for this! My target likely won't have many chances to get away, but I may be able to land another attack on another baddie using this feat. Extra attacks are always good!


Why not run a brute archetype instead of champion?

Tavern brawler gives you proficiency in improvised weapons and unarmed strikes

You now go with 1d4+strength punches, and add the brutes extra damage to all weapons you are proficient in.

Finally we have a strength based armored monk, at 20th level 1d4+5 plus 1d10. At 4th level 1d4+strength plus 1d4, better than a monk.

And with a level of rogue, go ahead and get expertise. Also grab TWF style, and fightwith a fist and dagger so you have your strength from for fist and finesse from your dagger for sneak attacks

I didn't see Brute in my D&D Beyond content choices, but not sure if it fits the theme I am looking for based on your description. Strength-based doesn't work with Elven Accuracy unfortunately :(.

Thanks for all the feedback so far! Definitely looking at alternate elf subraces, Scimitar of Speed, and Sentinel. Someone mentioned Silence - I don't think this is a Wizard spell, but is there an easy way for me to snag it? Definitely seems like a great spell choice.

As a sidenote based on some other feedback: In general, I am trying to avoid anything that would require "DM Ruling" or anything controversial such as grabbing with a shield, or Tavern Brawler being triggered by a shove.

smcmike
2018-04-26, 02:30 PM
I don't really like the Grappler feat, as I definitely don't want to be restrained myself. Shoving them prone effectively will give me the advantage I need.

I don’t like the Grappler feat either, but it works ok for your specific build. If you just ignore the pinning part, it gives you advantage on grappled opponents, which is exactly what you are basing the entire build around. Can you achieve this by pushing the target prone? Yes, but that costs another attack, and there is always the chance that you’ll fail. Grappler removes that fail point and gives you another chance to land a crit on the round you grab the target.

Generally, my preference is to skip grappling and just shove people prone with Shield Master. But if you are going to grapple, and really need a source of advantage, Grappler works.

Lucky is also good for you I think.

ZephyrTempest
2018-04-26, 02:44 PM
I don’t like the Grappler feat either, but it works ok for your specific build. If you just ignore the pinning part, it gives you advantage on grappled opponents, which is exactly what you are basing the entire build around. Can you achieve this by pushing the target prone? Yes, but that costs another attack, and there is always the chance that you’ll fail. Grappler removes that fail point and gives you another chance to land a crit on the round you grab the target.

Generally, my preference is to skip grappling and just shove people prone with Shield Master. But if you are going to grapple, and really need a source of advantage, Grappler works.

Lucky is also good for you I think.

That is true, I guess the tradeoff would be getting to crits/damage faster for less mobility. In the very worst case scenario, its just an alternate plan/tactic I may be able to leverage.

Oh! Lucky, I forgot about Lucky. That is 3 free dice rolls per long rest :)!! Definitely adding that one to the list.

djreynolds
2018-04-26, 03:38 PM
The brute is a new UA archetype for fighter, it is awesome. Check it out.

At 3rd, 10th, 16th, and 20th are damage increases, strength or dex based.... just have to have proficiency in the weapon

At 7th you add 1d6 to all saves, huge

At 10th an extra fighting style

At 15th, add your level in addition to all other damage on a critical hit

At 18th, survivor feature

It is an awesome archetype. No more hoping for critical hits, your extra damage is all ready there. Just hit.

With tavern brawler you are now proficient in all weapons basically.

Good luck to you. Would love to see what your build becomes, sounds exciting.

Citan
2018-04-26, 06:26 PM
Hello! New here to this forum, but I occasionally lurk here to get some ideas for character builds. I have been playing around with an idea that I am sure that I can make better, and was hoping to get some advice.

I am looking to build a character that takes advantage of sneaking up, grappling opponents, dragging them away, attacking multiple times, and critting with sneak attacks. Crits are more easily achieved by shoving opponents prone during a grapple, and getting advantage against them. This is expanded by taking the Champion fighter subclass (for a crit range of 19-20), as well as the Elven Accuracy feat with a finesse weapon. With Fighter 11, I get access to 3 attacks on my turn. I take Rogue to 9 for access to spell-casting through Arcane Trickster (Enlarge), expertise for monster grapple checks, and sneak attack dice for my crits. The end-result is me rolling 9d20s during my turn when attacking a prone target, giving me about a 60% chance to crit each turn (I am bad at math, so forgive me if I am wrong).

I go High Elf to qualify for Elven Accuracy, and relevant ability scores. I would likely leverage a rapier with a free hand to grapple and wear studded leather. Keep a shield and a longbow for backup against targets I can't grapple effectively...AC ends up being fairly high in a pinch. See below for some of the other specific choices:

Relevant Feats:
-Elven Accuracy (Gives more dice rolls and a Dex ASI)
-Tavern Brawler (Helps get more grapples)
-Warcaster (Helps with most spell-casting elements of the build)

Relevant Spell Choices:
-Create Bonfire (Holding someone down in fire...seems good, just requires concentration)
-Enlarge (Useful for advantage on grapples, as well as grappling larger opponents..also requires concentration though :()

Challenges to Overcome / Questions:
1. How do I deal with targets too big to grapple/shove? (Enlarge doesn't cover everything)
2. What is the ideal stat breakdown? (Currently going Dex>Str=Con=Int>Wis>Cha)
3. Is High Elf the ideal elf race choice for this build?
4. Is there a way to get another finesse attack using my bonus action? (I considering dropping 1 level of Rogue for Monk to use martial arts as my bonus action...but unfortunately Unarmed Strike doesn't qualify for Sneak Attack)
5. Are there any other spells I should consider that are specific to the core concept of the build? (currently just taking a bunch of self-utility spells that don't touch saving throws)

Look forward to hearing any thoughts or opinions that can help me out! Thanks in advance!
Hi!

For your specific build, Tavern Brawler is mostly irrelevant. Pick Grappler instead, it fits like a glove for you.
Target picked? Bonus action Cunning Action Dash to reach it, first attack Expertise Grapple, second attack Sneak Attack crit-fest (Grapple providing advantage + expanded crit + Elven Accuracy = you should hit 99% of all your enemies).
Target already grappled? Bonus action Dash back to friends or over a hazard then decide what to do. Or just enjoy making 3 attacks with advantage, no further investment.

You basically built the (mostly) perfect grappler (I would have picked Monk instead of Fighter myself but hey, taste and all that ;)), Grappler is the missing cherry. :)
If you need more indications about why, check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22987749&postcount=40) (general description), this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22423706&postcount=10)(example builds) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425584&postcount=17)(pointer to threads discussing grappling builds and tactics).

Using Create Bonfire is another good idea, cheap and effective.
Competition with Enlarge should not be that bad since you'll be limited by spell slots.

You may have a bit of trouble keeping your concentration though, so I'd argue that you should multiclass into a caster instead of going as high as Fighter 11 so you can pull Mirror Image + Enlarge for toughest fights, as well as using Shield regularly.
Cleric could be a nice option if you feel Create Bonfire is to cumbersome to pull off: Bless would push your accuracy when needed against highest AC, otherwise Shield of Faith would help face-tanking your grappled target.
OR, just have a Cleric agreeing to Warding Bond you. :)
Hexblade Warlock would also be great: since STR is the only stat incompatible with Elven Accuracy, you could completely ditch DEX and go CHA+CON with just decent STR, using CHA with a finesse weapon so you can still Sneak Attack. You could even be as nasty as going Devotion Paladin instead of Fighter if you just wanted to be sure you hit your target but that would be honestly overkill. XD

Whether you like the idea or not, I'd honestly target a Rogue 11 / Fighter 9 instead of the reverse: reason behind is dual.
1. Getting Reliable Talent means that whatever STR score you have, the minimum you'll get as a check is 20. With 12 STR and char level 15 this means base result 22. You probably won't even need the advantage on check effect of Enlarge. ^^
Meaning that your main source of advantage (Grapple) will be extremely reliable.

2. With advantage, 16 DEX, expanded crit range and Elven Accuracy, even against a AC 18, your risk of missing should be ridiculously low.

I'll actually take DEX 18 because I guess you'll start with 17 pre-racial and pick Elven Accuracy ASAP. With Grappler along around character level 10 ( if you stick with dual-class I'd suggest Fighter 1 > Rogue 1 > Fighter 5 > Rogue 11 although it means you'll get Enlarge fairly late, tradeoff as usual)...
Let's take even an enemy with AC 20 (fairly rare ^^).
At char level 10 you'll have 4+4 = +8 bonus.
You'd need a 12 or more to hit.
Normal chance? 45%.
With Advantage? 70%
With Elven Accuracy?
(How to reach that? Calculate the opposite event: chance to miss one time: 55%. Chance to miss 2 times in a row? 55/100 * 55/100 = 30%. Chance to miss 3 times in a row? (55/100)*(55/100)*(55/100) = 16%.

Against a 18 AC target?
Well... With triple advantage, risk of missing a single attack is ~9%.

Against the same AC 18 with help of a Bless? Chance of missing will vary between 1.5% and 6%.

Provided you reach char level 20, you'll sure-hit anything under AC 18 (DEX+prof = +11) when under advantage.


So it's a matter of trading one more attack (1d8+DEX, meaning 2d8+DEX on crit) versus one more Sneak Attack die (1d6, so 2d6 on crit). Difference seems significant? It won't actually matter at all by the time you get that high a level in Rogue (because you'll probably have been at least Fighter 6 before, so at least char level 17).

Only limit of your build will be too big creatures to grapple: good news, on them you'll still be a great "normal" martial, that also happen to get nice tricks up its sleeve (Magical Ambush + Blindness/Phantasmal Force/whatever).

Quoz
2018-04-27, 09:08 AM
A lot of great points here, all of them valid. Looks like a solid and versatile build. Here are a few things I would look at:

1. Shadow Blade spell. If you can't get a high dice magic item like a flame tongue this will add solid and reliable damage.

2. Find Familiar. A free once per round help action. Great for giving you advantage for things you can't knock prone. If you already have advantage, help a friend! (Try to stock up on scrolls for this, it's not worth one of your very limited school-free picks)

3. Look at adding full caster levels. Your build concept will only need a few spells to really shine but you will want them reliably through the day. You probably will lose your third attack if you cut back on fighter, but getting more spell slots may be worth it. My favorite choices would be:

Rogue 11/Bladesinger 6/ Fighter 3 - extra attack, reliable talent, and improved crit. Could even pick a different rogue archetype with wizard covering your spells.

Rogue 9/ Fighter 6 / cleric 5 - spirit guardians is an amazing option for you, maybe better than haste or enlarge depending on the opponent. Also deals with swarms handily.

Rogue 9/ Fighter 5/ Lore bard 6 - so much expertise you won't know what to do with it. Magic secrets to get any spell. Get creative.

If you don't want to go that route, try to snag a ring of spell storing to extend your casting options. Note that activating magic items doesn't require somatic components so you can cast from the ring while grappled.

ZephyrTempest
2018-04-27, 11:40 PM
Thanks for all of the feedback! Here is the route I ended up deciding to go. Admittedly, I gave up some of some of the focus on the Grapple/Crit Fishing to be a little more rounded, but I think these are the right choices for me. I made sure to list a lot of the things that you all listed that fit into Fighter 11 / Rogue 9. This character should be able to fight in melee, as well as ranged functionally, while also being able to function decently in a rogue or scout fashion depending on how it is built out. Biggest challenge is likely going to be Gargantuan flying things (generally a challenge for most characters anyway), where you have to fall back to hiding/longbow tactics. Your accuracy is insanely high with this build due to the amount of rolling that is done - you should very rarely miss. I decided to go with a higher Int than I originally intended to increase the consistency of using scrolls if required. I think this allows for fun shenanigans with Mage Hand, as I don't think you actually have to hold a scroll to read and cast the spell from it...and Mage Hand with Arcane Trickster allows you to pull from containers as a bonus action. Higher Int makes Create Bonfire more reliable, and allows more to more consistently use my Magical Ambush feature as well. I took Fighter 11 as I very highly value the third attack that comes with it...substantially more than more/higher level spells. Arcane Trickster spell options are fairly limited (mostly forced to take illusion/enchantment), and I didn't see much value taking a third class. See below for all the choices I made:

Race -
I chose High Elf due to ASI, bonus cantrip, and primarily for access to Elven Accuracy (core feat for the build).
High Elf
Cantrip Choice - Create Bonfire (Hold someone in a grapple on top of your bonfire for free potential damage).
Language Choice - Your preference.

Stat Array (Point Buy):
Odd Dex and Str for bump-ups through Tavern Brawler and Elven Accuracy.
Base - STR 13 DEX 15 CON 12 INT 15 WIS 8 CHA 8
With Racial - STR 13 DEX 17 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 8
Final (w feats) - STR 14 DEX 20 CON 16 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 8

Skill Priorities:
I think the 3 major choices are Athletics, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand. I also ended up taking Acrobaticsa and Investigation, but those choices are flexible.
Athletics - Primary skill of the whole build. Used for grappling, and shoving.
Stealth - Secondary skill. Useful for getting in a position to grapple, or useful if you have to fall back to using a long bow, so you can hide and get Sneak Attacks.
Sleight of Hand - Use for shenanigans with Mage Hand. You can control the hand while grappling using your Rogue bonus actions giving you options to steal items from people or do other fun things.

Background:
I chose Urchin to snag Stealth and Sleight of Hand, but there are definitely other options that you can take.
Tool Proficiency - Take Herbalism Kit to craft healing potions that your Mage Hand can administer to allies.

Level options and choices:
I start Fighter to get the appropriate saving throws. Rogue 4 to get basic spell casting, bonus action usage, sneaks, expertise, and ASI. Fighter 11 for two extra attack actions for more grapple/shove attempts. Rogue to finish out for more sneak dice/level 2 spells.

1 Fighter 1 - Dueling Fighting Style. I took Athletics and Acrobatics here as my Fighter skills.
2 Rogue 1 - Expertise in Athletics and Stealth. I took Investigation here from my Rogue multiclass so I can be Rogue-like to add to my utility.
3 Rogue 2 -
4 Rogue 3 - Choose the Arcane Trickster Archetype. For Cantrips take: Mage Hand (Required), Chill Touch (Useful against regeneration/undead) , and Minor Illusion (Useful for ambushing). For L1 Spells, Find Familiar (Useful for help action - Owl is good!), Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Silent Image
5 Rogue 4 - Take the Elven Accuracy feat, and put the ASI in Dex. For L1 Spell choice, take Disguise Self.
6 Fighter 2 -
7 Fighter 3 - Choose the Champion Archetype.
8 Fighter 4 - Take the Tavern Brawler feat, and put the ASI in Str.
9 Fighter 5 -
10 Fighter 6 - Take 2 Ability Score Increases into Dex.
11 Fighter 7 -
12 Fighter 8 - Take 2 Ability Score Increases into Con. (I start pumping Con here for more HP, and better saves for concentration.)
13 Fighter 9 -
14 Fighter 10 - For the additional Fighting Style, the choices are between Archery and Defense. I chose defense myself due to accuracy not being a concern, but it is a really tough option.
15 Fighter 11 -
16 Rogue 5 -
17 Rogue 6 - Expertise in Sleight of Hand and preference (Thieves Tools, or Investigation probably)
18 Rogue 7 - L2 Spell choice, take Mirror Image.
19 Rogue 8 - Take 2 Ability Score Increases into Con. L2 Spell choice, we can take Enlarge/Reduce at this level, which gives a lot of benefits for grappling.
20 Rogue 9 -

Alternate Feat Choices:
Grappler - Free advantage on Grapples. Saves some action economy by avoiding needing to knock the target prone.
Lucky - More free dice rolls once per day, which are more opportunities to crit.
Warcaster - Allows you to cast spells easily while maintaining a grapple with a weapon, and gives advantage on maintaining your Enlarge or Bonfire.
Sentinel - Useful for the potential of getting an out-of-turn attack with sneak. More attacks is always good when crit fishing!
Great Weapon Master - You can't really put half of this feat to use, but the half relevant to critting works with any weapon type. Bonus action melee attack!

Primary Gear Choices:
Rapier (Wield with an open hand for grabbing)
Shield (Keep on back just in case it is needed for fighting Huge or Gargantuan ground targets)
Longbow (Keep as a backup weapon for flying enemies)
Studded Leather Armor (Depending on some of your choices, you can reach really high AC with a 20 Dex. 12 Studded + 5 Dex + 1 Defense Style + 2 Shield = 20 AC)

Useful Magic Gear:
Flametongue Weapon- Due to our unusually high accuracy, this bonus damage is probably always worth it. Can be used with a rapier.
Sword of Sharpness - Lots of chances to roll the 20 for this weapon effect...Flametongue is probably better though. Needs to be a scimitar, so lower damage dice.
Scimitar of Speed- Even more chances to crit! Lower damage dice as a scimitar compared to Rapier, but gets the +2 bonus making it pretty strong.
Vorpal Sword - Probably the best weapon possible, but it is really rare. Definitely a capstone.
Animated Shield - More AC, hands free.
Boots of Speed - More Speed for dragging off your victims.
Ring of Spell Storing- Store some spare uses of Enlarge in here...or if you have an ally with Silence that would be amazing as well.
Any of the Strength Increasing Items (Ogre Gloves or Giant Belts) - A easy way to make Athletics checks better. One of the reasons I don't dump a lot of points into Strength.
Anything that gives unconditional flying (Winged Boots, Wings of Flying, etc.) - Grapple....fly....drop target into hazard such as lava, a cliff, etc.
Scrolls - Enlarge Person comes to mind. Cast these while grappling using your Mage Hand.

Citan
2018-04-29, 08:46 AM
HI again!

Well, I still don't understand what interest your find in Tavern Brawler for your build since it requires you to make unarmed attack or improvised weapon attack to enable bonus action grapple. And unless you happen to find some object that would be close enough to a dagger or rapier to be accepted as a finesse weapon by a DM, it means you would have to ditch Sneak Attack damage. Seems not good to me, at the very least undoubtly inferior to any of the alternative feats you listed.

Apart from that, seems you have a clear idea on what you want to play, and how, so go for it and enjoy. :)