Regarding Flurry of Blows and other attacks

[cartejos]

To my understanding, during a Full Attack Action, a player can use any (secondary) natural attacks that don't occupy a limb that was used for the full attack.

Flurry of Blows is a Full Attack Action.

Monks can use any part of their body as an unarmed strike.

Could a Kobold (2 Claws, 1 Bite) with a base attack bonus of 6 Flurry as Kick/Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite? Or am I getting turned around on the rules of Manufactured/Natural/Flurry of Blows?

[exelsisxax]

To my understanding, during a Full Attack Action, a player can use any (secondary) natural attacks that don't occupy a limb that was used for the full attack.

Flurry of Blows is a Full Attack Action.

Monks can use any part of their body as an unarmed strike.

Could a Kobold (2 Claws, 1 Bite) with a base attack bonus of 6 Flurry as Kick/Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite? Or am I getting turned around on the rules of Manufactured/Natural/Flurry of Blows?

They can't, actually.


When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons.

[cartejos]

Would Shou Disciple change that at all? It gives a flurry with all light melee weapons, and then all Melee weapons.

[Karl Aegis]

You've already used your full round action on a flurry of blows. You do not get another full round action to make a full attack.

[SirNibbles]

You've already used your full round action on a flurry of blows. You do not get another full round action to make a full attack.

It's a full attack action, not a full round action. You can use all of your Natural Weapons as secondary attacks when full attacking.

[Darrin]

The rules for Flurry of Blows aren't clear enough to ascertain whether you get secondary natural attacks or not. The text states:

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)."

The text doesn't specify if this limitation applies to only just those attacks made as part of the Flurry, or to all attacks the monk makes that turn. It can be argued that the secondary natural attacks happen after the Flurry of Blows, so the monk currently isn't "using" flurry when he attacks with them. But there's no definitive way to determine if that's the interpretation that the designers intended.

This boils down to "DM's Call" or "Whatever works best for your group."

[Troacctid]

To my understanding, during a Full Attack Action, a player can use any (secondary) natural attacks that don't occupy a limb that was used for the full attack.
I don't believe such a limb restriction is present in the 3.5 rules. That's a Pathfinder addition.


Monks can use any part of their body as an unarmed strike.
This is not a rule either AFAICT.

[Karl Aegis]

It's a full attack action, not a full round action. You can use all of your Natural Weapons as secondary attacks when full attacking.

Full attack action is not a type of action listed under action types. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#actionTypes) Maybe you meant something that didn't make "full attack" an undefined action type?

[exelsisxax]

The rules for Flurry of Blows aren't clear enough to ascertain whether you get secondary natural attacks or not. The text states:

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)."

The text doesn't specify if this limitation applies to only just those attacks made as part of the Flurry, or to all attacks the monk makes that turn. It can be argued that the secondary natural attacks happen after the Flurry of Blows, so the monk currently isn't "using" flurry when he attacks with them. But there's no definitive way to determine if that's the interpretation that the designers intended.

This boils down to "DM's Call" or "Whatever works best for your group."

No it doesn't. You explicitly, unquestionably, cannot do that by RAW. If the DM wants to not use RAW, WotC isn't going to sue but it isn't a ruling where something is vague. The DM would be invoking rule 0 to directly contravene the rules, nothing less.

[Karl Aegis]

I think if you want to use Flurry of Blows at all you should use the brood monkey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041126a) version. Or the Oriental Adventures Sohei version. Core Monk Flurry of Blows is a godawful mess that should have been rewritten into something readable.

[InterstellarPro]

I seem to recall a Skip Williams article discussing this, but I do not recall exactly where. Part of the discussion eventually made it into the 3.5 FAQ (which I understand is a mess). Skip's ruling was that yes, you could make all of your natural weapon attacks after your flurry of blows. He took it further even. A monk with two-weapon fighting could add in off-hand attacks. If the monk had the Rapid Shot feat and used Shurikens for at least one of his flurry of blows attacks, he could make an additional shuriken attack at his highest attack bonus. The article had the monk getting somewhere around nine attacks before natural secondary attacks, but all of them at very low attack bonuses.

Here is the FAQ's entry (which I believe came from a Skip Williams article):


Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks. An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).

Edit: I was mistaken! Skip came down on the opposite side as the FAQ. I found what I was looking for. Here is the quote from the Rules of the Game article:


Monks and Natural Weapons

As we saw in Part Two, a creature with natural weapons can use them for secondary attacks when using the full attack action. A monk character with natural weaponry has the same option.

For example, an 8th-level lizardfolk monk with a Strength score of 17 has a base attack bonus of +7 (+1 for its 2 humanoid Hit Dice and +6 for its monk levels). The character has three natural weapons: two claws (1d4) and one bite (1d4). For this example, we'll assume the character also has the Multiattack feat.

With the full attack action, our example monk can make two unarmed attacks thanks to its +7 base attack bonus. After adding in the +3 bonus from the monk's Strength score of 17, our example character's unarmed attacks have the following attack bonuses: +10/+5. Thanks to the monk's class level and Strength score, damage for the unarmed strikes is 1d10+3.

The example monk also can attack with its claws and bite as secondary natural attacks at a -2 penalty (thanks to the character's Multiattack feat). Each natural weapon uses the character's +7 base attack bonus and +3 Strength modifier, except that the Strength bonus on damage is halved because these are secondary attacks: 2 claws +8 (1d4+1) and bite +8 (1d4+1).

As noted last week, there are no two-weapon or off-hand penalties for these attacks.

The example monk cannot use a flurry of blows because a flurry doesn't work with natural weaponry.

[Telonius]

Full attack action is not a type of action listed under action types. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#actionTypes) Maybe you meant something that didn't make "full attack" an undefined action type?

The formatting of the webpage obscures it a bit; Full Attack is one type of Full-Round Action. (You can see it better on this (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/combat.htm) page, where the indenting makes it a bit more clear).

I think the key rule on mixing in natural weapons after a Flurry is found under the Special Abilities heading for Manufactured Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons):


Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

There's nothing about Flurry of Blows that suggests to me that it would provide an exception to or over-ride this rule.