OOTS #1118 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Connington]

Ha, Elan is Positive Energy incarnate!

[unknownmercury]

Fantastic strip, thank you Giant!

[Deuce]

Oh, Elan - never change.

Things not going too well for Team Bloodsucker. Hope next strip brings us the big Ex-Girlfriend reveal for Durkula.

[Majiy]

What's that about not needing to worry about being in 30 feet for a sneak attack? Older edition rules reference?

[Agi Hammerthief]

mass cure light wounds, Elan?

[Fyraltari]

Somewhere, Leeky Windstaff's ears are ringing and he does not know why.

EDIT: That's two vampires down, 9 to go.

Frankly I'm impressed by how tough that one vampiress was, she got stomped on by giraffes and cleaved by Roy and still wasn't down.

[Nymrod]

What's that about not needing to worry about being in 30 feet for a sneak attack? Older edition rules reference?

You can only deal precision based damage (which includes, among other things, sneak attack) with a ranged attack while within 30 feet of the target

[Yxylu]

What's that about not needing to worry about being in 30 feet for a sneak attack? Older edition rules reference?

Undead are immune to sneak attacks, which normally only work within 30 feet. Since they aren’t affected, getting within range doesn’t help.

[Shining Wrath]

And Ponchella demonstrates she's the smart one. Glad to see the 3rd vampire wasting an action.
I have to admit I'm beginning to get worried about what DurkonT is going to do when he gets off his throne.

Elan is adorable, as always. Don't harsh the vampires' vibes, man. Be mellow about killing them all.

[Blithesome]

I just have to adore the whole ‘this word means something in game terminology separate from how it’s normally used, and a character confuses its game meaning and regular meaning’ joke- it was good when it was ‘spell levels’ and it was lovely now.

[2D8HP]

:elan: "....harshing their vibes"

Huh.

That's one way to put it.

I've always heard it as "harshing their mellow"

Learning is happening!

[Shining Wrath]

Prediction: DurkonT is going to need healing later in the battle, and because he told Braidella not to waste spell slots on healing him, she won't. It will be the opposite, sort-of, of Durkon standing by and not helping Roy inside the giant frog. Durkon learned not to be passive; Braidella will not work it out in time, because vampire spirits don't learn like mortals do.

[SilverCacaobean]

Oh, man. I was hoping Hilgya would get in. Guess I'll have to wait one more strip to see that...

[Stabbey]

mass cure light wounds, Elan?

Yeah, I was thinking that too. But it's not like playing optimally is a thing which usually happens anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

New comic is up.
Thank you, Giant, for humor.
The last panel had me chuckling out loud IRL. *applause*

[Peelee]

Prediction: DurkonT is going to need healing later in the battle, and because he told Braidella not to waste spell slots on healing him, she won't. It will be the opposite, sort-of, of Durkon standing by and not helping Roy inside the giant frog. Durkon learned not to be passive; Braidella will not work it out in time, because vampire spirits don't learn like mortals do.

Oh, I suspect he'll get plenty of healing from Haley's wands.

[Fyraltari]

Prediction: DurkonT is going to need healing later in the battle, and because he told Braidella not to waste spell slots on healing him, she won't. It will be the opposite, sort-of, of Durkon standing by and not helping Roy inside the giant frog. Durkon learned not to be passive; Braidella will not work it out in time, because vampire spirits don't learn like mortals do.

I like that idea.

[dmc91356]

This continues the "no one expects sonic damage" motif. I like it. I also like Belkar's banter.

[georgie_leech]

Oh, I suspect he'll get plenty of healing from Haley's wands.

We just had a- OISWYDT.

Also, I love the callback to the earlier confrontation with Leeky.

[AutomatedTeller]

Fun comic. I think it's interesting that the clerics are last in against undead, but I guess Hilgya already did something?

I was surprised about the tough vamp, too - Roy and Belkar were one-shotting them in the earlier ambush, after all.

[happycrow]

That was really cute.

[Hardcore]

Hmm, I suspect haley targeting durcula for a reason, that is: according to plan. After all there are numerous weaker targets much closer to her.

[Doug Lampert]

mass cure light wounds, Elan?

He doesn't understand that healing spells hurt undead. So he's not going to do that. He's only semi-competent.

[Shining Wrath]

Fun comic. I think it's interesting that the clerics are last in against undead, but I guess Hilgya already did something?

I was surprised about the tough vamp, too - Roy and Belkar were one-shotting them in the earlier ambush, after all.

Vampires have a lot more HP than vampire spawn. They have D12 hit dice, and have at least 5 class levels, so 12 + 4*6.5 = 38 HP minimum, and possibly quite a bit more.


Oh, I suspect he'll get plenty of healing from Haley's wands.

Strangely, though, she won't feel like a heel for healing her enemy.
Elan may contribute a few Cure spells on his part.

EDIT:

While Elan is not likely to come up with Mass Cure Light Wounds on his own, Haley may suggest it, or he may cast it simply because V and other members of the Order are banged up and he's using it normally. V just took ~45 points of damage, which is quite a lot for a wizard (unless Fort save was made, which is not an elf wizard's forte).

[tyckspoon]

Yeah, I was thinking that too. But it's not like playing optimally is a thing which usually happens anyway.

The Geekery Thread identifies Elan at Bard level 14 or higher. That would give him an Inspire Courage bonus of +3 (to hit, to damage, and to saves against Charm and Fear..which might actually be relevant in this fight.) He's got at least three combatants with him who will likely be throwing three or more attacks a round if they can get full attacks. If they all hit, that's 27 damage a turn he provides by Inspiring Courage. That compares favorably to or better than what he would get from Mass Cure Light for 1d8 + 14 (15 to 22, Will save for half damage, and with most of the Vampires being spellcasters of some variety they probably have pretty decent Will.) Personally, I'd expect Greater Dispel Magic to be the more relevant of his known 5th level spells, although he'll probably need V or Hilgya to identify what needs Dispelling.

[Sylian]

I'm guessing the dwarven cleric is not very high level, if Inflict Moderate Wounds (a level 2 spell) is seen as a "waste". The human vampire seems to be decently high level, though. I'm guessing around 8-10 or so? Her dynamic with Greg seems to be much less "Master, I will follow you" and more like "I'm an individual", so I'm guessing she's not a thrall. I wonder how many (if any) of the other vampires are thralls?

[Darkohaku]

Man, I really love Elan, it's so endearing have a party member with such charisma and naivety.

I'm waiting to see Durkon reaction to Hilgya and his son. It's such a pity no one else could see that reaction.

[Peelee]

Strangely, though, she won't feel like a heel for healing her enemy.

I should hope not, when it's their Achilles' Heel.

[Fyraltari]

I'm guessing the dwarven cleric is not very high level, if Inflict Moderate Wounds (a level 2 spell) is seen as a "waste". The human vampire seems to be decently high level, though. I'm guessing around 8-10 or so? Her dynamic with Greg seems to be much less "Master, I will follow you" and more like "I'm an individual", so I'm guessing she's not a thrall. I wonder how many (if any) of the other vampires are thralls?

Ponchella was an usher at a top-secret ecumenical meeting after all. She most likely belonged to the elite of the Creed. The dwarven Cleric was just another Cleric. Also if it does something that would have hapened gratuitously on its own then it is a waste, no matter how small.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm guessing the dwarven cleric is not very high level, if Inflict Moderate Wounds (a level 2 spell) is seen as a "waste". The human vampire seems to be decently high level, though. I'm guessing around 8-10 or so? Her dynamic with Greg seems to be much less "Master, I will follow you" and more like "I'm an individual", so I'm guessing she's not a thrall. I wonder how many (if any) of the other vampires are thralls?

There were 5 vampires, so far as I can tell; Ponchella, Braidella, DurkonT, the one that just got giraffe + Roy+ Belkar to death, and the guy who was getting DurkonT his "throne". I think chair-getter is likely a thrall, as that seems pretty subservient. I'll agree with you about Ponchella and Braidella. We'll never really know about the dead one.

Also, Gontor is a vampire, but not a thrall so far as I can guess.

[Agi Hammerthief]

He doesn't understand that healing spells hurt undead. So he's not going to do that. He's only semi-competent.
and „explaining things so Elan understands“ is probably a full round action...

[Doug Lampert]

The Geekery Thread identifies Elan at Bard level 14 or higher. That would give him an Inspire Courage bonus of +3 (to hit, to damage, and to saves against Charm and Fear..which might actually be relevant in this fight.) He's got at least three combatants with him who will likely be throwing three or more attacks a round if they can get full attacks. If they all hit, that's 27 damage a turn he provides by Inspiring Courage. That compares favorably to or better than what he would get from Mass Cure Light for 1d8 + 14 (15 to 22, Will save for half damage, and with most of the Vampires being spellcasters of some variety they probably have pretty decent Will.) Personally, I'd expect Greater Dispel Magic to be the more relevant of his known 5th level spells, although he'll probably need V or Hilgya to identify what needs Dispelling.

But inspire courage lingers for 5 additional rounds after he stops singing. That's longer than most battles last.

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.

[Shining Wrath]

I should hope not, when it's their Achilles' Heel.

I hope Elan doesn't try to pet a vampire after his Heal has brought them to heel; they bite. OTOH, if a vampire is off-balance when hit with Cure Light, they may heel over.

The big question is if a vampire will see this coming and squeal an appeal against the heal before it impacts their weal?

[D.One]

Just noticed Blackwing Improved Evading...

[Eloel]

If they all hit, that's 27 damage a turn he provides by Inspiring Courage. That compares favorably to or better than what he would get from Mass Cure Light for 1d8 + 14 (15 to 22, Will save for half damage, and with most of the Vampires being spellcasters of some variety they probably have pretty decent Will.)

15 to 22 per enemy, to 14 enemies. Even if they all save and minimum damage is rolled, that is 7x14=98 damage.

[Shining Wrath]

15 to 22 per enemy, to 14 enemies. Even if they all save and minimum damage is rolled, that is 7x14=98 damage.

I think there's only 11 enemies, though, and 2 are already dead, so 9x7 = 63.

[Jasdoif]

Just noticed Blackwing Improved Evading...Unlikely, against a single target spell with a Fort save.

[Shining Wrath]

Just noticed in panel #2 - the spawn were evidently trying to reach the flying elf wizard, rather than climbing the walls. Another deficiency in the plans of Team Bloodsucker; there were no contingency plans for the elf surviving or evading the initial spawn swarm. Ponchella is improvising, but the spawn seem to be obeying rather mindlessly.

[Lexible]

No one ever remembers to protect themselves against sonic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html).

[Vessyra]

I wonder whether the OotS has revealed Hilgya?

[137beth]

I'm guessing the dwarven cleric is not very high level, if Inflict Moderate Wounds (a level 2 spell) is seen as a "waste". The human vampire seems to be decently high level, though. I'm guessing around 8-10 or so? Her dynamic with Greg seems to be much less "Master, I will follow you" and more like "I'm an individual", so I'm guessing she's not a thrall. I wonder how many (if any) of the other vampires are thralls?

It's also possible HPoH meant not to waste an action healing him, instead of not wasting a spell.

[Reboot]

Here's a question - how worthwhile is it for them to actually attack Durkula directly, if even breaking even on damage per round is hard? Would they be better focusing on stalling him and cleaning up the lower-level guys (Who also have regeneration, but far fewer hitpoints) first?


Just noticed in panel #2 - the spawn were evidently trying to reach the flying elf wizard, rather than climbing the walls. Another deficiency in the plans of Team Bloodsucker; there were no contingency plans for the elf surviving or evading the initial spawn swarm. Ponchella is improvising, but the spawn seem to be obeying rather mindlessly.

Ponchula clearly isn't a thrall. Neither is the ExExarch, nor Namelessula since she talked back, so all the ExStoners are presumably free-willed. So was Sandstoneula. All the spawn are kinda up in the air, though - it may be that they're keeping the low-level guys on a much tighter leash than the guys with meaningful class levels.

And Ponchula's INT is clearly higher than Durkula's!

[Vessyra]

Ponchula does seem to have the highest intelligence out of all the villains. But I doubt that she has realised the next phase of the Order's plan. For no-one would suspect the attack of...

Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator!

[Peelee]

I hope Elan doesn't try to pet a vampire after his Heal has brought them to heel; they bite. OTOH, if a vampire is off-balance when hit with Cure Light, they may heel over.

The big question is if a vampire will see this coming and squeal an appeal against the heal before it impacts their weal?

Look, if you're going to start using rhymes instead of homonyms, then I just don't see the appeal.

[D.One]

Unlikely, against a single target spell with a Fort save.

Ops, my mistake. Single target...

[zimmerwald1915]

Just noticed Blackwing Improved Evading...
No you didn't. Sound lance is single-target, and wouldn't permit evasion, since it requires a Fortitude, not Reflex, save.

[TuringTest]

...aaaand, the Order is back to action! Yay!!!

[Jay R]

It's nice to see that, even with all the character growth, Belkar is still Belkar.

[Chei]

No you didn't. Sound lance is single-target, and wouldn't permit evasion, since it requires a Fortitude, not Reflex, save.

I looked it up and it seems it doesn't need a ranged attack roll, either. It actually sounds like a savage spell to use against wizards for a 4th-level spell, then.

I'm still taken by Ponchola's general competence. I wonder who's going to take her down?

[The Pilgrim]

Nice brick joke on V

[Sylian]

Also if it does something that would have hapened gratuitously on its own then it is a waste, no matter how small.Only if we assume that Greg won't take lethal damage before he would've healed up. That Inflict Moderate Wound could, theoretically, be the difference between getting dusted and staying, well, undead.


It's also possible HPoH meant not to waste an action healing him, instead of not wasting a spell.It's possible, although Greg did say "Don't waste your spell slots on that!", which indicated that the spell slots were the issue, not the action. For all we know, she could be a level 3 cleric.

[brian 333]

Durkula isn't as smart as he thinks he is. He spent a critical two rounds doing nothing. Unless it's a case of long reload times every gun on the line should fire every round.

Also: it is extremely difficult to write a high charisma idiot. Kudos to The Giant for making Elan so loveable.

[Reboot]

Only if we assume that Greg won't take lethal damage before he would've healed up. That Inflict Moderate Wound could, theoretically, be the difference between getting dusted and staying, well, undead.

It's possible, although Greg did say "Don't waste your spell slots on that!", which indicated that the spell slots were the issue, not the action. For all we know, she could be a level 3 cleric.

Greg has 15d12 HP, Damage Reduction 10 (except against silver & magic, which I doubt Haley's arrows are) and heals 5 HP per round. And Haley doesn't even get sneak attack.

Whatever damage she did is going to go away pretty quickly.

[Shining Wrath]

I looked it up and it seems it doesn't need a ranged attack roll, either. It actually sounds like a savage spell to use against wizards for a 4th-level spell, then.

I'm still taken by Ponchola's general competence. I wonder who's going to take her down?

I think she just made V angry, or at least annoyed. While V has undergone some character growth since Familicide, I still think making them angry is unwise.

[Shining Wrath]

Greg has 15d12 HP, Damage Reduction 10 (except against silver & magic, which I doubt Haley's arrows are) and heals 5 HP per round. And Haley doesn't even get sneak attack.

Whatever damage she did is going to go away pretty quickly.

We know Haley's bow is magical, which makes the arrows fired from it magical attacks.

[The MunchKING]

Greg has 15d12 HP, Damage Reduction 10 (except against silver & magic, which I doubt Haley's arrows are) and heals 5 HP per round. And Haley doesn't even get sneak attack.

Whatever damage she did is going to go away pretty quickly.

She did explicitly have silver arrows when she fought Sabine. And doesn't a bow's enchantment count as enchanting the arrows for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction?

[tyckspoon]

Here's a question - how worthwhile is it for them to actually attack Durkula directly, if even breaking even on damage per round is hard? Would they be better focusing on stalling him and cleaning up the lower-level guys (Who also have regeneration, but far fewer hitpoints) first?


Standard Vampire fast healing is only 5 points a round. That's not much, although it's pretty effective if your attacker can't also beat your Damage Reduction (10 points requiring a weapon that is both Silver and Magic to ignore. Roy's sword might do it as part of its anti-undead properties, and Haley may have found a way to acquire the appropriate arrows since she's already used to having to carry weird materials to deal with Sabine.. Belkar's daggers probably don't have a way to beat it, tho, which means he's going to be pretty hard pressed to deal significant damage. This is probably why he's carrying stakes.) If the Order can concentrate attacks on him, they can cut down Durkula fairly quickly. The main thing will be preventing him from casting, as giving him a chance to Harm himself can instantly undo several rounds worth of attacking.

And yes, especially as long as Durkula is still just sitting on his chair and not actively in the fight I think it's probably wiser to work on destroying or disabling the lesser vampires. Especially the smart one with Sound Lance, who I believe has cast the highest demonstrated level spell of the minions so far - both Sound Lance and Recitation are level 4 Cleric spells.


I looked it up and it seems it doesn't need a ranged attack roll, either. It actually sounds like a savage spell to use against wizards for a 4th-level spell, then.

Yup. Doesn't get hit with the Cleric penalty for damage value (d8/level instead of the usual Cleric 'blast' of d6/2 levels), targets a non-standard save for a blasting spell, doesn't need you to roll. Would have been a good choice for Tsukiko to try and kill Haley with, too. If she's got enough slots to fire off a couple more of those they could reasonably take down V, with hir low class progression for Fortitude saves, low class hit die, and less-than-great Constitution score.

[zimmerwald1915]

Standard Vampire fast healing is only 5 points a round. That's not much, although it's pretty effective if your attacker can't also beat your Damage Reduction (10 points requiring a weapon that is both Silver and Magic to ignore. Roy's sword might do it as part of its anti-undead properties, and Haley may have found a way to acquire the appropriate arrows since she's already used to having to carry weird materials to deal with Sabine.. Belkar's daggers probably don't have a way to beat it, tho, which means he's going to be pretty hard pressed to deal significant damage. This is probably why he's carrying stakes.) If the Order can concentrate attacks on him, they can cut down Durkula fairly quickly. The main thing will be preventing him from casting, as giving him a chance to Harm himself can instantly undo several rounds worth of attacking.

And yes, especially as long as Durkula is still just sitting on his chair and not actively in the fight I think it's probably wiser to work on destroying or disabling the lesser vampires. Especially the smart one with Sound Lance, who I believe has cast the highest demonstrated level spell of the minions so far - both Sound Lance and Recitation are level 4 Cleric spells.
That vampire has itself cast greater dispel magic, a 6th-level spell.

[ackmondual]

Does Sonic Lance only do hp damage, or is there some status aliment to that? I recall D/zz-whomever had trouble casting spells in the pyramid when s/he couldn't hear h/self speak. Would this impede V's casting abilities?


And Ponchella demonstrates she's the smart one. Glad to see the 3rd vampire wasting an action.
I have to admit I'm beginning to get worried about what DurkonT is going to do when he gets off his throne.

If not mist out and retreat, some high level spell?

[Kish]

Greg has 15d12 HP, Damage Reduction 10 (except against silver & magic, which I doubt Haley's arrows are)
Haley has a very, very magic bow (this isn't Baldur's Gate), and she had silver arrows when she fought Sabine.

[VoodooGuru]

:elan: "....harshing their vibes"

Huh.

That's one way to put it.

I've always heard it as "harshing their mellow"

Learning is happening!

Bard, Don't Kill My Vibe

[Shining Wrath]

That vampire has itself cast greater dispel magic, a 6th-level spell.

Has at least one 6th level left (domain spell), plus a bonus if wisdom is 22 or more. May have used said bonus spell on a Symbol, as it's unlikely IMNHO DurkonT used up five or six of his spell slots of level 5 and above on Symbols (10 slots plus bonus spells plus one domain spell of levels 5 thru 8).

[Anarion]

I appreciate the coordinated entrance into the room. Hopefully V isn't knocked out of commission too quickly either.

[AutomatedTeller]

Does Haley have any melee weapons? I don't think I've ever seen her use anything but her bow (and Crystal's knife, when she had that). Not that the spawn are any particular danger, since they are slowed

[Fish]

I think there's only 11 enemies, though, and 2 are already dead, so 9x7 = 63.
And Elan could still heal allies with the same spell.

[Reboot]

Does Haley have any melee weapons? I don't think I've ever seen her use anything but her bow (and Crystal's knife, when she had that). Not that the spawn are any particular danger, since they are slowed

She's got the non-magic adamantine weapon she picked up to fight Crystal Golem, and a sap. That's about it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Does Sonic Lance only do hp damage, or is there some status aliment to that? I recall D/zz-whomever had trouble casting spells in the pyramid when s/he couldn't hear h/self speak. Would this impede V's casting abilities?
Sound lance does this:


Sound Lance
(Spell Compendium, p. 196)

Evocation [Sonic]
Level: Sorcerer 3, Wizard 3, Cleric 4,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature or object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes

You unleash a shrill, piercing cry at your target, which takes the barely visible form of a translucent lance hurtling through the air.

This spell causes a projectile of intense sonic energy to leap from you to a target within range. The sound deals 1d8 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d8). A sound lance cannot penetrate the area of a silence spell.
It's as pure a blast as it gets, game-mechanically. Nothing, of course, prevents the taking of some artistic liberties with how disoriented Vaarsuvius actually is.

[Qaanol]

Calling it now: at the end of this fight, Durkon* will turn to mist and escape up the chimney behind his chair.

[Reboot]

Calling it now: at the end of this fight, Durkon* will turn to mist and escape up the chimney behind his chair.

The thought occurred to me that he might Word of Recall. After all, he needs to meet Durkon's mum somehow, and I expect Durkon's old bedroom counts as a familiar place.

[Onyavar]

I liked Undurkons "You don't need to gloat." - seeing that it was his host who had previously a big success with a similar tactic involving weather control.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that Elan has discovered the best way to defeat the vampires.

[The MunchKING]

The main thing will be preventing him from casting,

Which a high DPR will do anyway as damage adds directly to amount needed for a Concentration check to keep casting a spell when you get hit.

[Fish]

I think that Elan has discovered the best way to defeat the vampires.
As far as I can tell, Elan has never cast Mass Cure Light Wounds in Durkula's presence, and only once in Durkon's presence.

[JumboWheat01]

Mental note, always keeps some Resist Sonic potions on hand on my characters, just in case.

[RatElemental]

5 gp says this will lead to Elan realizing he can heal, and using that against the vampires.

[KorvinStarmast]

She did explicitly have silver arrows when she fought Sabine. And doesn't a bow's enchantment count as enchanting the arrows for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction? It does in 5e, I'd have to look it up for 3.5.


Does Haley have any melee weapons? I don't think I've ever seen her use anything but her bow (and Crystal's knife, when she had that).

She used Roy's sword while he used her bow when fighting the sand / silicon golem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html) I think she used Elan's rapier once when he was injured. Can't recall which comic. (Maybe the fight with Miko?)

[Jasdoif]

And doesn't a bow's enchantment count as enchanting the arrows for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction?Yes, it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm).


Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

[Mandor]

Love the Sonic damage. And can't help but look back at that time in Cliffport, with V vs the Treants, and "FIRE!" and "LIGHTNING!" and "SONIC!"

[Sloanzilla]

In Pathfinder, a +3 or greater bonus to a weapon also counts as silver and cold iron (in addition to counting as magic), but that isn't the case in 3.5. Not sure about 5.0.

[Sylian]

Greg has 15d12 HP, Damage Reduction 10 (except against silver & magic, which I doubt Haley's arrows are) and heals 5 HP per round. And Haley doesn't even get sneak attack.

Whatever damage she did is going to go away pretty quickly.She likely has silver/magic arrows, so the damage wouldn't be too bad (maybe 15-20ish damage or so from two arrows, guesstimating). Furthermore, it's quite likely that someone else will attack Greg before he would heal on his own (we don't know yet though).


Has at least one 6th level left (domain spell), plus a bonus if wisdom is 22 or more.It seems pretty likely that she's level 12 or higher. Would she really bother with Greater Dispel Magic over Dispel Magic if she'd only gain +1 bonus (I suppose she might have something boosting her caster level)? So my bet is on level 12 or higher. We might see her use a level 7 spell. She might also have Harm prepared, which could be devastating.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Vampires also have Resistance (Cold) 10, which negates the first 10 points from her Icy Burst longbow. Of course, if she crits it's an x3 (+2d10), but this is really not the fight she's equipped for.

[Basement Cat]

Ponchella (is that what we're calling her?) is proving to have serious potential as a serious baddie. I like.

I can't help but contrast her pragmatic capability against Durkula's overconfident pratfalls.

The irony is that while Durkula has the power his understanding and perception of the world is based on Durkon's life experience....and the Order of the Stick is a haphazard bunch of bumblers for the most part.

I love how Haley has learned to just go with it concerning Elan's inanity. The couple has come a long, long way.

[SaintRidley]

Prediction: DurkonT is going to need healing later in the battle, and because he told Braidella not to waste spell slots on healing him, she won't. It will be the opposite, sort-of, of Durkon standing by and not helping Roy inside the giant frog. Durkon learned not to be passive; Braidella will not work it out in time, because vampire spirits don't learn like mortals do.

I have a feeling you're right on the money.

[The_Weirdo]

I like V and I want the order to win, but I really want Ponchula to make it out of there... Well, undead.

She's hawt and smart. :smallbiggrin:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is this the first time we've seen explicit mention of 5e mechanics?

[Sylian]

Is this the first time we've seen explicit mention of 5e mechanics?What 5e mechanics?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/17/175799c510e8e1497dc3a0fd4635b9b8a1d8c267ebbf9cef89 fbd5d24151a864.jpg

[AstralFire]

What 5e mechanics?

Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll. The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.

I don't think that's why Elan said that they don't need to worry about being within 30 feet -- rather, you can't sneak attack undead at all in 3rd edition -- but I think that's what the poster meant.

[ti'esar]

Ohhh, Elan. :smallsigh:

[sotanaht]

You can only deal precision based damage (which includes, among other things, sneak attack) with a ranged attack while within 30 feet of the target
That always annoyed me. "Lets build a class around one feature (sneak attack) to make them useful in combat, but lets make that feature not work at all in over 50% of all situations".

Anyway if sneak attacks don't work on vampires and I've never heard of bard song extending their reach, just what is Elan doing anyway?

[The MunchKING]

That always annoyed me. "Lets build a class around one feature (sneak attack) to make them useful in combat, but lets make that feature not work at all in over 50% of all situations".

Anyway if sneak attacks don't work on vampires and I've never heard of bard song extending their reach, just what is Elan doing anyway?

Telling her to not bother to try to get close to the Vampires as it doesn't work?

Guessing it's the normal "Boost combat skills" bard song.

[Kish]

Inspiring Courage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireCourage) to buff all the Order and Hilgya.

[sotanaht]

Telling her to not bother to try to get close to the Vampires as it doesn't work?

Guessing it's the normal "Boost combat skills" bard song.
Fair enough. I didn't think of it that way though and Elan is usually too dumb for that, especially considering Haley just had to remind him about the healing/hurting thing.

[Sylian]

I don't think that's why Elan said that they don't need to worry about being within 30 feet -- rather, you can't sneak attack undead at all in 3rd edition -- but I think that's what the poster meant."Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet."

It's a 3.5 mechanic.

[Crœsos]

Belkar's daggers probably don't have a way to beat it, tho, which means he's going to be pretty hard pressed to deal significant damage.

One of Belkar's daggers used to be Tarquin's presumably top-of-the-line psionicly enhanced dagger. See strip #960 for details.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

If V has any spells to prevent teleportation or turning-into-mist-and-slipping-away, now is the time to cast them. Few things are more frustrating than a villain escaping after you've killed the minions.

I seem to remember V trying to prevent the momma Dragon from flying/teleporting away. That didn't seem to work.

[zimmerwald1915]

If V has any spells to prevent teleportation or turning-into-mist-and-slipping-away, now is the time to cast them. Few things are more frustrating than a villain escaping after you've killed the minions.

I seem to remember V trying to prevent the momma Dragon from flying/teleporting away. That didn't seem to work.
Dimensional anchor and dimensional lock would both prevent teleportation, and Vaarsuvius has cast both in the past. Neither would prevent gaseous form, but resilient sphere or forcecage would.

That said, I fully expect Hilgya to be the MVP spellcaster of this combat, and that Vaarsuvius will not be casting again before it wraps up.

[Chei]

One of Belkar's daggers used to be Tarquin's presumably top-of-the-line psionicly enhanced dagger. See strip #960 for details.

A +5 small dagger that isn't silver is still going to be virtually useless against a vampire's damage reduction and fast healing. We've seen Durkon* shrug off Belkar's full-round attacks before.

[Goblin_Priest]

And just as Durkon* will need his minions' support, Kudzoo will Turn Undead their asses to oblivion.

[Cavir]

Sound lance is single-target, and wouldn't permit evasion, since it requires a Fortitude, not Reflex, save.
Good thing too. Sound lance at Hilgya also hitting Kudzoo could get messy. Worse- the single target IS Kudzoo. Can't get any more evil than that, so a perfect vampire action.

[Keltest]

That always annoyed me. "Lets build a class around one feature (sneak attack) to make them useful in combat, but lets make that feature not work at all in over 50% of all situations".

Anyway if sneak attacks don't work on vampires and I've never heard of bard song extending their reach, just what is Elan doing anyway?

Rogues aren't combat machines though. Theyre skill monkeys, intended to provide out of combat utility as a trade for combat effectiveness. If you want to be the universal combat guy, play a class designed for fighting first.

[Ikuryo]

A +5 small dagger that isn't silver is still going to be virtually useless against a vampire's damage reduction and fast healing. We've seen Durkon* shrug off Belkar's full-round attacks before.

It's a dagger of collision so +5 dmg on top of the enhancment bonus, Belkar will get small dagger + str bonus dmg past the DR. About enough to counter the fast regen 5.

[dtilque]

A +5 small dagger that isn't silver is still going to be virtually useless against a vampire's damage reduction and fast healing. We've seen Durkon* shrug off Belkar's full-round attacks before.

When he first got it, he tested it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html) and did some damage to Durkula. Belkar has always done more damage than the rules allow, especially with his old daggers. He's one-shot characters that he really shouldn't be able to.

[zimmerwald1915]

Rogues aren't combat machines though. Theyre skill monkeys, intended to provide out of combat utility as a trade for combat effectiveness. If you want to be the universal combat guy, play a class designed for fighting first.
Nah, if you want to be a universal combat guy, play a class designed for cultivating forests and talking to animals.

[Sloanzilla]

It isn't true, but I always liked to think that Belkar has "Favored Enemy: Whatever I am fighting" as a trade-off class skill in exchange for no spells or tracking. That, on top of barbarian rage and magic daggers, could give him a decent damage total.

[Sermil]

It isn't true, but I always liked to think that Belkar has "Favored Enemy: Whatever I am fighting" as a trade-off class skill in exchange for no spells or tracking. That, on top of barbarian rage and magic daggers, could give him a decent damage total.

"Favored Enemy: Everyone and everything" is more like it.

[Sylian]

Good thing too. Sound lance at Hilgya also hitting Kudzoo could get messy. Worse- the single target IS Kudzoo. Can't get any more evil than that, so a perfect vampire action.Pretty evil, but Hilgya could potentially still Raise Kudzu (at the cost of 2 Con and quite a bit of gold), while wasting a spell and an action doing nothing against any real threat. If they want to kill Kudzu they'd be better off using some AoE spell, that way they'd also harm real threats.

[GreatWyrmGold]

mass cure light wounds, Elan?
For him to realize why that's good, someone would need to explain that healing works by positive energy, and I'm not sure it's worth a free action to inspire him to try and heal people with good feelings and supportive comments.



What 5e mechanics?
When I first read the comic, I assumed Elan's song was referring to how rogues don't need to be within 30 feet to sneak attack anymore. Then I read through the rest of the thread and realized, oh duh, undead can't be sneak attacked at all, that's probably what he was talking about.
(In fairness, I've been playing a lot of Pathfinder, and undead are fair game for sneak attacks there.)




Rogues aren't combat machines though. Theyre skill monkeys, intended to provide out of combat utility as a trade for combat effectiveness. If you want to be the universal combat guy, play a class designed for fighting first.
I understand that theory, but I don't think it leads to more interesting gameplay situations. See, it means that in most gameplay situations, the rogue is less effective (making their decisions matter less and, hence, have less impact and be less interesting), while whenever the rogue is allowed to shine, the entire rest of the party does nothing. Since party-based RPGs are theoretically about teamwork, it would make more sense if all members of the party could contribute to all major problems, but none could solve any major problems without help from other members of the party. This would also ensure that all players' decisions are important and, hence, interesting at most times.
That's not getting into how the out-of-combat utility is pretty boring. It mostly consists of "notice problem, roll dice, solve problem or don't".

[ManuelSacha]

"You've got so much negative energy, you could heal the undead."
Oh, I'm so gonna use that. :smallbiggrin:

[Stabbey]

Haley does not yet seem to be using those sharpened arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html) for vampire heart-shooting. I guess maybe she'll be using those soonish?

[eilandesq]

Even mildly wounding Durkula is going to be worthwhile--I suspect one of the reasons that Roy had in mind for sending V. in first was getting to optimum range for a disintegrate spell (V. has a +8 attack bonus with the ranged touch attack vs. Durkula's probable touch AC of 10 or 11 after vampire Dex bonus, but few or none other to hit bonuses, so range penalties would increase the risk of a miss and V. probably only has one or two disintegrates racked. Durkula is probably 15th level, so has 15d12 HP and no con bonus/penalty as a vampire, so average HP would be about 98. V. has a current caster level of 17 and a INT of 24 according to the analysis threads, so the disintegrate spell would have a DC of 23 and would do 34d6 (average 119 damage) on a blown save, or 18 on a made save. Unless Durkula has an item that provides saving throw bonuses, his FORT save is a flat +9, giving him only a 35% chance to make the save. Given that Durkula could have better than average HP or that the damage on the disintegrate could be low, shaving off a few HP beforehand could be the difference between an angry wounded high level cleric vampire and a pile of dust.

Of course, V. just took 10d8 (average 45 damage) or half that on a save, so V. ain't loving life right now either.

Edit: The recitation spell cast by Ponchula would give Durkula a +3 to saving throws, so his chance to save against a disintegrate should be exactly 50%.

[BriarHobbit]

Poor V is getting chewed up. It will be interesting to see what the other dwarven cleric does. I was expecting some evil planar allies from Greg, and Greg has not acted yet. The symbol of death remains an issue. This fight is very interesting.

[Psychronia]

Quick! Everyone shout at the vampires to follow their dreams and have faith everything will turn out okay!

[warmachine]

Should have cast Dispel Magic. And someone ought to give Elan a permanent INT enhancer. How positive and negative energy affects undead is basic knowledge.

[RatElemental]

Vampires also have Resistance (Cold) 10, which negates the first 10 points from her Icy Burst longbow. Of course, if she crits it's an x3 (+2d10), but this is really not the fight she's equipped for.

Vampires are immune to crits, right?

[Delta]

Am I the only one to have expected this to go in a completely different direction when Elan asked about the Inflict Wounds spell? I mean, with Healing magic one of the things he has actually been moderately useful in the past, I immediately thought this would be a setup for him to use healing spells as a source of damage against the vampires (but may well be this is a plot point to come up in a few strips)

[warmachine]

Am I the only one to have expected this to go in a completely different direction when Elan asked about the Inflict Wounds spell? I mean, with Healing magic one of the things he has actually been moderately useful in the past, I immediately thought this would be a setup for him to use healing spells as a source of damage against the vampires (but may well be this is a plot point to come up in a few strips)
Most people thought Mass Cure Light Wounds as an obvious tactic. Already stressed by making her/himself a target and by her/his oppressive pact with the fiends, I reckon this will lead to Vaarsuvius calling Elan an idiot and hurt feelings all round. Roy then struggles to calm down the shouting match.

[Kashem]

I'm betting that the order is holding Hilgya back as long as possible, potentially forever. Spotting her would likely cause Durkula to split. It was risky enough having her summon to clear the traps and throw the chaos hammer, but it was a huge tactical advantage to do so. I'm betting she won't join the battle until the vamps have put all of their cards on the table, and even then if the order is winning she won't bother.


5 gp says this will lead to Elan realizing he can heal, and using that against the vampires.

I am really hoping that this all sets up a scenario where Elan ends up realizing that he can mass heal at the last possible minute, and he board clears like 8 vamps/spawn. I dream that it would include Durkula somehow, and then he would have to live with the fact that he got beaten by ELAN.


I like V and I want the order to win, but I really want Ponchula to make it out of there... Well, undead.

She's hawt and smart. :smallbiggrin:

I really want her to make it out as a member of the order or tagalong after being rezzed or something. She was suppressing those evil tendencies before, so her personality likely wouldn't be changed a lot as living, especially if she's gotten a taste of the evil and enjoyed it.
I'm kind of wondering if they are building up a big team of clerics to go against Xykon. More clerics are always better when dealing with a hugely high level lich. If they get Ponchula and Durkula raised and joined, they'd be up to 3 high level and one low level (Minrah).

[Shining Wrath]

"Favored Enemy: Everyone and everything" is more like it.

How about "Favored Enemy: Sentient Life"?


Haley does not yet seem to be using those sharpened arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html) for vampire heart-shooting. I guess maybe she'll be using those soonish?

Hypothesis: they are only effective as a finishing blow, and removing them negates the effect, so it's something to do when a vampire is low on HP and not near allies.

[Kashem]

Should have cast Dispel Magic. And someone ought to give Elan a permanent INT enhancer. How positive and negative energy affects undead is basic knowledge.

Now I want to see Elan get his INT sapped by something, and have a situation where his int drops below 3 and he becomes non-sentient.

[D.One]

How about "Favored Enemy: Sentient Life"?



Hypothesis: they are only effective as a finishing blow, and removing them negates the effect, so it's something to do when a vampire is low on HP and not near allies.

Acording to the SRD, "driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster." That said, I can't find any rule concerning attacking the heart.

[D.One]

Now I want to see Elan get his INT sapped by something, and have a situation where his int drops below 3 and he becomes non-sentient.

I believe neither him nor anyone else around would notice much difference :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Quester]

I thought at first that Ponchella was casting two spells, from the way it's drawn. A beam and a field of sound.

Then I realized that what I thought was the beam, is the "sound effect"; how it sounds to others in the room.

And how it sounds is "OW OW OW OW OW" Nice touch.

[Sienar]

I thought at first that Ponchella was casting two spells, from the way it's drawn. A beam and a field of sound.

Then I realized that what I thought was the beam, is the "sound effect"; how it sounds to others in the room.

And how it sounds is "OW OW OW OW OW" Nice touch.

Huh, and here I was thinking the sound would be more like "Wo Wo Wo Wo". Kind of a like a more bass-resonant wah-wah.

But your interpretation is definitely more amusing!

[Keltest]

Most people thought Mass Cure Light Wounds as an obvious tactic. Already stressed by making her/himself a target and by her/his oppressive pact with the fiends, I reckon this will lead to Vaarsuvius calling Elan an idiot and hurt feelings all round. Roy then struggles to calm down the shouting match.

To the best of my knowledge, V has never attacked Elan (or indeed, anybody else) over their combat tactics. V knows he isn't a tactician, and is perfectly willing to leave that job to Roy.

[Shining Wrath]

I thought at first that Ponchella was casting two spells, from the way it's drawn. A beam and a field of sound.

Then I realized that what I thought was the beam, is the "sound effect"; how it sounds to others in the room.

And how it sounds is "OW OW OW OW OW" Nice touch.


Huh, and here I was thinking the sound would be more like "Wo Wo Wo Wo". Kind of a like a more bass-resonant wah-wah.

But your interpretation is definitely more amusing!

The sound lance cast by Ponchella is similar to the sonic lance used by the Ythrak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html) against O Chul and Lien, which has an EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE effect.

[brian 333]

I have always ruled, because the RAW explicitly states that pinpoint attacks against body parts is not allowed, that staking is a coup de grace attack. Haley apparently believes that she can target the heart, of a combatant vampire.

Vaarsuvius is off panel, and so is Blondie Ironhat, the dwarf paladin. I am hoping the two are together right now discussing the best application of Blondie's limited healing capabilities. In other words, V ain't out of the fight yet!

[hamishspence]

I have always ruled, because the RAW explicitly states that pinpoint attacks against body parts is not allowed, that staking is a coup de grace attack. Haley apparently believes that she can target the heart, of a combatant vampire.


There's some precedent in D20 systems.


It works in D20 Munchkin (page 45 of the Munchkin Monster Manual) as follows:


Staking Real Vampires
Munchkins take note! PCs can destroy any vampire in one shot by driving a stake into its heart. A vampire's heart is usually about three size categories smaller than the vampire itself; thus, the heart of a Medium-size vampire is a diminutive target. To stake a vampire, an opponent must attack the bloodsucker with a wooden piercing weapon, using the heart's size modifier to AC rather than the vamp's. If the attack hits and deals damage, then - dusted vamp! Once the PCs in your campaign learn this trick, kobolds will consider vampires a laughingstock. PCs can't use this trick to stake any other creatures, uh, because the rules say so.

In D20 Modern it's as follows:


Wooden weapons that do piercing damage (such as wooden stakes, arrows, pool cues, spear shafts, and table legs) threaten a critical hit against a vampire on a natural 20 (unless noted otherwise) even though vampires are normally immune to critical hits. A successful critical hit destroys a vampire instantly, turning it to dust.

[zimmerwald1915]

To the best of my knowledge, V has never attacked Elan (or indeed, anybody else) over their combat tactics. V knows he isn't a tactician, and is perfectly willing to leave that job to Roy.
She attacked Miko over her combat tactics.

[CawCawMarmalade]

I mean, for a bard it would certainly make sense for negative/positive energy to work that way!

Might be an interesting concept for some homebrew bard spells...

[Shining Wrath]

She attacked Miko over her combat tactics.

EVERYONE made fun of Miko for something at some point. For a while, it was Belkar's lifestyle choice.
Roy's line about Vitamin O remains a classic of the genre.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

EVERYONE made fun of Miko for something at some point. For a while, it was Belkar's lifestyle choice.
Roy's line about Vitamin O remains a classic of the genre.

Treasure Type (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html), not vitamin.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

Vampires are immune to crits, right?

Depends on the GM. Most say yes, others allow it as the only mechanical way of doing that 'stake through the heart' move.

[Hokum]

I think this is the first ever OOTS strip that I actually disliked.

[warmachine]

To the best of my knowledge, V has never attacked Elan (or indeed, anybody else) over their combat tactics. V knows he isn't a tactician, and is perfectly willing to leave that job to Roy.
Indeed, but he has shouted at Elan before (#127). Why now, or rather, why soon? V is in the unprecedented and uncomfortable position of being the primary target, being bait anyway, still being surrounded by enough enemies to potentially level drain her/him in one or two rounds, then discovers Elan is too stupid to know of an emergency tactic to could save her/him.

People react to stress unpredictably, of course, but I reckon it's a likely scenario.

[Keltest]

Indeed, but he has shouted at Elan before (#127). Why now, or rather, why soon? V is in the unprecedented and uncomfortable position of being the primary target, being bait anyway, still being surrounded by enough enemies to potentially level drain her/him in one or two rounds, then discovers Elan is too stupid to know of an emergency tactic to could save her/him.

People react to stress unpredictably, of course, but I reckon it's a likely scenario.

He shouted at Elan over a perceived direct insult to him and his life's work. The situations are not comparable.

Also, mass cure light wounds is unlikely to do anything to save V should he be mobbed by the vampires again. It simply doesn't heal enough damage.

[Nymrod]

I have always ruled, because the RAW explicitly states that pinpoint attacks against body parts is not allowed, that staking is a coup de grace attack. Haley apparently believes that she can target the heart, of a combatant vampire.

What I'd perhaps allow is that she can target the heart only the heart has Durkula's AC +2/+4 (since it is Tiny or Diminutive compared to his Medium size) and with full concealment. And since she has to not just hit the target but fully perforate it, she'd have to also get a critical hit on it (yes undead are immune to crits and precision damage but you could still use the threat range to get the rule working). This is my general houserule for called shots after all.

[Jasdoif]

Vampires also have Resistance (Cold) 10, which negates the first 10 points from her Icy Burst longbow. Of course, if she crits it's an x3 (+2d10), but this is really not the fight she's equipped for.Vampires are immune to crits, right?Yes, but magic weapon effects that trigger on a critical hit work even if the target is immune to critical hits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm).

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits

Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect functions against creatures not subject to critical hits, such as undead, elementals, and constructs. When fighting against such creatures, roll for critical hits as you would against humanoids or any other creature subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon’s regular damage.

[D.One]

Yes, but magic weapon effects that trigger on a critical hit work even if the target is immune to critical hits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm).


Wow. I didn't remember that.

[TRH]

Greg's passivity is curious - I'm pretty sure this is still the first round of combat, but he hasn't done anything. I assume he's waiting to cast something, but he probably should do it soon, before he runs out of meatshields.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Crit fishing is often about the only way to take down something with DR. Best to memorize those rules early.

edit:
Also, mass cure light wounds is unlikely to do anything to save V should he be mobbed by the vampires again. It simply doesn't heal enough damage.

It won't just heal V, it'll also deal damage to the vamps. Probably enough to finish off most given the Chaos Hammer. Every round this doesn't happen, the vamps get better.

[Kevka Palazzo]

I think this is the first ever OOTS strip that I actually disliked.

Just out of curiosity, why?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Acording to the SRD, "driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster." That said, I can't find any rule concerning attacking the heart.
Well, if you were to blame for a shot to the heart, it's fair to infer that you would give love a bad name. That's not RAW, but I think it's fair to call it common sense.



I believe neither him nor anyone else around would notice much difference :smallbiggrin:
Are you kidding? Once you go below Int 3, you can't talk—Roy would realize Elan hadn't had any inane ideas lately.



To the best of my knowledge, V has never attacked Elan (or indeed, anybody else) over their combat tactics. V knows he isn't a tactician, and is perfectly willing to leave that job to Roy.
They did so once, to Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html) Though not because of the ineffectiveness of said tactics...

[D.One]

Well, if you were to blame for a shot to the heart, it's fair to infer that you would give love a bad name. That's not RAW, but I think it's fair to call it common sense.

I'd never give love a bad name. Let's just say I literally have Love in my name...:smallbiggrin:


Are you kidding? Once you go below Int 3, you can't talk—Roy would realize Elan hadn't had any inane ideas lately.

I'm not sure to have seen in RAW anything about loosing speech by dropping INT. If RL can be used as reference, Elan might end up talking even more :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[georgie_leech]

I mean, for a bard it would certainly make sense for negative/positive energy to work that way!

Might be an interesting concept for some homebrew bard spells...

See also: Vicious Mockery and the 4e Warlord, the healer that healed by being inspiring at people.

[dtilque]

The symbol of death remains an issue.

It looks like the Symbol of Death has been expended on the giraffes in strip 1117 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1117.html). In panel 1, you can see it (and all the other symbols) highlighted in white as they discharge. In panel 2, all the symbols are just fading outlines. The symbols are all gone in the rest of the strip. So the only remaining effect of the symbol is that Durkula expended an 8th level slot to inscribe it. Depending on what the other symbols were and how many he inscribed, it's possible he's mostly out of high level spells.

[zimmerwald1915]

He shouted at Elan over a perceived direct insult to him and his life's work. The situations are not comparable.
To be fair, she deserves every insult that comes her way, and Elan was actually right: there is no good reason to take the career path she did, given how the universe works.

[Shining Wrath]

It looks like the Symbol of Death has been expended on the giraffes in strip 1117 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1117.html). In panel 1, you can see it (and all the other symbols) highlighted in white as they discharge. In panel 2, all the symbols are just fading outlines. The symbols are all gone in the rest of the strip. So the only remaining effect of the symbol is that Durkula expended an 8th level slot to inscribe it. Depending on what the other symbols were and how many he inscribed, it's possible he's mostly out of high level spells.

Assuming level 15, DurktonT would have 10 spell slots of level 5 or higher, plus one slot each of 5 to 8 for domain spells, plus bonus spells due to high wisdom (5th at Wisdom of 20, 6th at Wisdom of 22, and so on). If there were 6 Symbol spells and he scribed them all, he's seriously depleted, as all Symbol spells are at least level 5. However, Ponchella at a minimum could have scribed at that level, assuming she prepared them, which would have required DurkonT to have told her they were needed, as I don't think Symbols are routinely part of what a cleric expecting a battle would prepare.

I'm going to guess the vampires are out significant spell power in any case.

[lcavalheiro]

Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll. The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.

I don't think that's why Elan said that they don't need to worry about being within 30 feet -- rather, you can't sneak attack undead at all in 3rd edition -- but I think that's what the poster meant.

Misfire of ours. No undead creature takes sneak attack damage, which a ranged combatant, like Haley, can do only at 30ft range. So if she can't inflict sneak attacks on them, she doesn't need to care about range. Easy peasy, huh?

[georgie_leech]

Misfire of ours. No undead creature takes sneak attack damage, which a ranged combatant, like Haley, can do only at 30ft range. So if she can't inflict sneak attacks on them, she doesn't need to care about range. Easy peasy, huh?

As an aside, those [rules that the person you're quoting posted] are the 5e rules. Everything in this comic is from 3.5, so you (meaning the general You, not the specific) want the 3.5 version. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) You can use that website to reference most of the rules that get referenced in-comic.

[The_Weirdo]

I really want her to make it out as a member of the order or tagalong after being rezzed or something. She was suppressing those evil tendencies before, so her personality likely wouldn't be changed a lot as living, especially if she's gotten a taste of the evil and enjoyed it.
I'm kind of wondering if they are building up a big team of clerics to go against Xykon. More clerics are always better when dealing with a hugely high level lich. If they get Ponchula and Durkula raised and joined, they'd be up to 3 high level and one low level (Minrah).

Yes!!! She can become a Cleric Belkar! :smallbiggrin:

[Sienar]

The sound lance cast by Ponchella is similar to the sonic lance used by the Ythrak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html) against O Chul and Lien, which has an EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE effect.

Ok, I truly admire The Giant's attention to details. What I'm seeing is that the Sound Lance used by Ponchula has a more resonant, echo-y tone because it's been fired off in the tunnels. The Sonic Lance has the flat EEEEEEEE effect because out on the open tundra, no echo!

Amazing!

[Cavir]

No undead creature takes sneak attack damage, which a ranged combatant, like Haley, can do only at 30ft range. So if she can't inflict sneak attacks on them, she doesn't need to care about range. Easy peasy, huh?
There's still Point Blank Shot for the extra +1 to hit/damage. Small bonuses at this level, but still worth it if you can get them.

[Peelee]

Ok, I truly admire The Giant's attention to details. What I'm seeing is that the Sound Lance used by Ponchula has a more resonant, echo-y tone because it's been fired off in the tunnels. The Sonic Lance has the flat EEEEEEEE effect because out on the open tundra, no echo!

Amazing!

I think it's just a different sound based on either different source (spell vs supernatural ability), or, like magical aura color, the user can personalize it. I'd lean more towards source, though,

[Reboot]

There's still Point Blank Shot for the extra +1 to hit/damage. Small bonuses at this level, but still worth it if you can get them.

Not really, considering point blank range would inevitably get her some negative levels?

[Emanick]

Not really, considering point blank range would inevitably get her some negative levels?

Being 30 feet away doesn't make getting negative levels inevitable.

[Snails]

Here's a question - how worthwhile is it for them to actually attack Durkula directly, if even breaking even on damage per round is hard? Would they be better focusing on stalling him and cleaning up the lower-level guys (Who also have regeneration, but far fewer hitpoints) first?

It is not worthwhile, except as a distraction tactic, which is a pretty uncertain gambit. That said, it seemed to work here.

[Mandor]

Pretty evil, but Hilgya could potentially still Raise Kudzu (at the cost of 2 Con and quite a bit of gold), while wasting a spell and an action doing nothing against any real threat. If they want to kill Kudzu they'd be better off using some AoE spell, that way they'd also harm real threats.
Ah but would Kudzu accept the rez? We saw Roy's brother up in his afterlife and he never accepted the rez because he was happier there.

[Kish]

Kudzu would go to the Chaotic Evil afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18168085&postcount=78). He might be a little more willing to leave it than Eric was to leave Celestia.

[Keltest]

To be fair, she deserves every insult that comes her way, and Elan was actually right: there is no good reason to take the career path she did, given how the universe works.

You mean besides the ability to do anything and everything you want? I mean, V botched their build pretty hard and theyre still competing with only Durkon for being the strongest member of the Order. As much as "you need to put as much work into your wizard build as some people put into their college degree" is a meme here, it doesn't take a whole lot of optimization for wizards to become terrifyingly powerful.

[Hokum]

Just out of curiosity, why?

We've seen a lot of Elan misunderstanding things, which is perfectly alright, but when the punchline is not that funny it sticks out. Also it slows the developement of the fight and I very much would like to see more.


Don't get me wrong, I think OOTS is the best webcomic there is and one of the best works of fiction I know. It's amazing that after over 1100 strips and the books this is the first one I disliked.

[GreatWyrmGold]

As an aside, those are the 5e rules. Everything in this comic is from 3.5, so you want the 3.5 version. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) You can use that website to reference most of the rules that get referenced in-comic.
I could have sworn there were one or two offhand references to 4e rules...



It is not worthwhile, except as a distraction tactic, which is a pretty uncertain gambit.
I mean, if it's timed right it might make him waste a spell slot and an action.

[The MunchKING]

I could have sworn there were one or two offhand references to 4e rules...

Elan "has Ignorance as a class power source (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html)" I believe was one of them.

[Mandor]

Kudzu would go to the Chaotic Evil afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18168085&postcount=78). He might be a little more willing to leave it than Eric was to leave Celestia.

Hm. That's true. I'd forgotten the incredibly raw deal dwarven souls get in Stick-verse. No exceptions for alignment or minimum required age, either, if that bet was verbatim. I stand corrected.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hm. That's true. I'd forgotten the incredibly raw deal dwarven souls get in Stick-verse. No exceptions for alignment or minimum required age, either, if that bet was verbatim. I stand corrected.
That's the general rule for all mortals who die very young, it seems - they go to their mother's afterlife. Race has nothing to do with it. This is the cosmos being ageist.

[brian 333]

Well, if you were to blame for a shot to the heart, it's fair to infer that you would give love a bad name. That's not RAW, but I think it's fair to call it common sense.

Do you always give the pat (Benatar) answer to trite questions?

[Peelee]

Do you always give the pat (Benatar) answer to trite questions?

Pat Benatar? Either you took some bad medicine, or you're livin' on a prayer.

[Ruck]

Vaarsuvius is off panel, and so is Blondie Ironhat, the dwarf paladin. I am hoping the two are together right now discussing the best application of Blondie's limited healing capabilities. In other words, V ain't out of the fight yet!

Who? Do you mean Minrah, the dwarf cleric of Thor?

[Manty5]

Well sure, if you're going to get all technical by using her name and correct class and all =)

[Kish]

The puzzling thing is that brian 333 didn't go all the way and call her an elf paladin.

[brian 333]

I thought Minra was a paladin. See what I know?

[ORione]

As an aside, those are the 5e rules. Everything in this comic is from 3.5, so you want the 3.5 version. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) You can use that website to reference most of the rules that get referenced in-comic.

No, those are 3.X rules. 5e allows sneak attack further than 30 feet, and to the undead.

[georgie_leech]

No, those are 3.X rules. 5e allows sneak attack further than 30 feet, and to the undead.

...right? The post I responded to had in turn responded to a quote from the 5e rules. You can tell by, among other things, references to the Advantage mechanic rather than denying Dexterity bonuses to AC, and not requiring Flanking but merely that one of your allies be adjacent to the target. The "those" I was referring to were said quoted rules. I then linked the 3.5 SRD page so that players that came in with the latest edition know where to find most of the rules the OotS comic references.

[Kish]

...right? The post I responded to had quoted the 5e rules. You can tell by, among other things, references to the Advantage mechanic rather than denying Dexterity bonuses to AC, and not requiring Flanking but merely that one of your allies be adjacent to the target. I linked the 3.5 SRD page so that players that came in with the latest edition knew where to find most of the rules the OotS comic references.
This is what you quoted:

Misfire of ours. No undead creature takes sneak attack damage, which a ranged combatant, like Haley, can do only at 30ft range. So if she can't inflict sneak attacks on them, she doesn't need to care about range. Easy peasy, huh?
No reference to Advantage. No reference to flanking or anyone being adjacent. Did you mean to quote a different post?

[Canisius]

And Ponchella demonstrates she's the smart one. Glad to see the 3rd vampire wasting an action.
I have to admit I'm beginning to get worried about what DurkonT is going to do when he gets off his throne.

Elan is adorable, as always. Don't harsh the vampires' vibes, man. Be mellow about killing them all.

I haven't been watching the forae that much - what does DurkonT mean?

[georgie_leech]

This is what you quoted:

No reference to Advantage. No reference to flanking or anyone being adjacent. Did you mean to quote a different post?

Edited for clarity.

[The MunchKING]

I haven't been watching the forae that much - what does DurkonT mean?

Basically Durkon* only it doesn't leave you looking for a footnote that's not there. :smallcool:

[lcavalheiro]

There's still Point Blank Shot for the extra +1 to hit/damage. Small bonuses at this level, but still worth it if you can get them.

At actual OotS characters' level, a plain +1 on hit is negligible. Haley may have1 a DEX score so huge that it's impaling Thor, her build may1 be optimized to archery combat and she has a fairy decent magic arrow. Plus, Greg is sitting on a chair, which denies him all DEX, dodge and other fancy bonus to AC. And against Greg's death-given bullet-proof (vampire damage reduction), a plain +1 on damage is negligible. Still no worth being less than 30ft from a powerful undead divine spellcaster.

1: I'm not accounting for unoptimized builds, the OotS members' trademark.

[lcavalheiro]

This is what you quoted:

No reference to Advantage. No reference to flanking or anyone being adjacent. Did you mean to quote a different post?

Just showing that original poster has no need of looking for 5ed. rules on a 3.5ed set, specially when a 3.5ed rule can explain the situation. Plainly putting it: sneak attacks can't damage undeads.

[factotum]

That's the general rule for all mortals who die very young, it seems - they go to their mother's afterlife. Race has nothing to do with it. This is the cosmos being ageist.

Well, where else would be better? If they go to their mother's afterlife then they at least get to see their mother again at some point. If they go to the True Neutral afterlife (which I think is where they strictly ought to go by RAW) that's less likely to be the case.

[georgie_leech]

Just showing that original poster has no need of looking for 5ed. rules on a 3.5ed set, specially when a 3.5ed rule can explain the situation. Plainly putting it: sneak attacks can't damage undeads.

This. I wanted to then expand on the thought by providing the actual place to find the rules needed.

[Corneel]

I haven't been watching the forae that much - what does DurkonT mean?
I'm more interested in what forae means.

[Fyraltari]

I'm more interested in what forae means.

Looks like at an attempt at declining "forum".

Should be "forum" (both nominative and accusative singular) or "fora" (same but plural) though as it belongs to the second declination.

[Corneel]

Looks like at an attempt at declining "forum".

Should be "forum" (both nominative and accusative singular) or "fora" (same but plural) though as it belongs to the second declination.
Or forums, since we've come a long way from Roman squares and market places. Forum is now as English a word as mogul and can be safely declined as an English word. That blue font thing, I think I'm gonna have to start using it...

[georgie_leech]

Or forums, since we've come a long way from Roman squares and market places. Forum is now as English a word as mogul and can be safely declined as an English word. That blue font thing, I think I'm gonna have to start using it...

Nonsense, everyone knows the Roman love of Bread and Circii will always be relevant :smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

Nonsense, everyone knows the Roman love of Bread and Circii will always be relevant :smallamused:

My oculuses hurt.

[Mandor]

Well, where else would be better? If they go to their mother's afterlife then they at least get to see their mother again at some point. If they go to the True Neutral afterlife (which I think is where they strictly ought to go by RAW) that's less likely to be the case.Well, if it means sending them to the "Deep end of the alignment pool", you could argue that's definiltely NOT better. Even in the real world there are some kids who are NOT better off with their parents.

But I think it's safe to say we're not going to see a Celesitial Child Protective Services manifest, and I can't think of any DM/GM who would ever want to open said barrels of worms.

[Fyraltari]

Well, if it means sending them to the "Deep end of the alignment pool", you could argue that's definiltely NOT better. Even in the real world there are some kids who are NOT better off with their parents.

But I think it's safe to say we're not going to see a Celesitial Child Protective Services manifest, and I can't think of any DM/GM who would ever want to open said barrels of worms.

Anybody else thinking of the ending of A.I.? Just me? Okay.

[Corneel]

Nonsense, everyone knows the Roman love of Bread and Circii will always be relevant :smallamused:
Don't you mean Paninii and Circii? :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Don't you mean Paninii and Circii? :smalltongue:

Just had to throw in your II sesterces, didn't you?:smallwink:

[Kish]

Looks like at an attempt at declining "forum".
The forum may have declined, either recently or over the years, yes...

[Corneel]

Well if declining forum is inevitable...

Forum, forum, forum;
Fori, foro, foro;
Fora, fora, fora;
Fororum, foris, foris!

To be sung to the tune of the refrain of Jacques Brel's "Rosa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6rLLE48RL0)".

[Fyraltari]

Don't you mean Paninii and Circii? :smalltongue:Just had to throw in your II sesterces, didn't you?:smallwink:
And I'm the one who needs blue text...


The forum may have declined, either recently or over the years, yes...

Heh. Good one.

EDIT

To be sung to the tune of the refrain of Jacques Brel's "Rosa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6rLLE48RL0)".
Didn't knwo that one. Thank you.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, if it means sending them to the "Deep end of the alignment pool", you could argue that's definitely NOT better.

Look, if you really want to get technical, the kids probably haven't formally accepted the existence of the gods and therefore qualify as atheists. Which in D&D-land means they're what Asmodeus snacks on in his quest to be the greatest god ever.

Let's just...not talk about D&D's cosmology. At best, it's junk.

[Peelee]

Look, if you really want to get technical, the kids probably haven't formally accepted the existence of the gods and therefore qualify as atheists. Which in D&D-land means they're what Asmodeus snacks on in his quest to be the greatest god ever.

Let's just...not talk about D&D's cosmology. At best, it's junk.

I don't recall accepting the existence of gods as a requirement for anything other than Cleric or Paladin (or any other deity-powered divine class) levels. The afterlives, IIRC, sort you out based on who you were and what you did.

[2D8HP]

I'm more interested in what forae means.


Looks like at an attempt at declining "forum".

Should be "forum" (both nominative and accusative singular) or "fora" (same but plural) though as it belongs to the second declination.


Or forums, since we've come a long way from Roman squares and market places. Forum is now as English a word as mogul and can be safely declined as an English word. That blue font thing, I think I'm gonna have to start using it...


Nonsense, everyone knows the Roman love of Bread and Circii will always be relevant :smallamused:


Don't you mean Paninii and Circii? :smalltongue:


Just had to throw in your II sesterces, didn't you?:smallwink:


The forum may have declined, either recently or over the years, yes...


Well if declining forum is inevitable...

Forum, forum, forum;
Fori, foro, foro;
Fora, fora, fora;
Fororum, foris, foris!

To be sung to the tune of the refrain of Jacques Brel's "Rosa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6rLLE48RL0)".


:eek::


Did I detect an argument about grammer and some pun use at a thread nominally about The Order of the Stick?

I'm shocked!

Absolutely shocked!

that the thread went so long without more grammer debates and puns.

Really it just doesn't seem like the Forum that I love if we go long without them

[Peelee]

:eek::


Did I detect an argument about grammer and some pun use at a thread nominally about The Order of the Stick?

I'm shocked!

Absolutely shocked!

Not just grammar and pun use, but Latin grammar and pun use!

[Emanick]

Look, if you really want to get technical, the kids probably haven't formally accepted the existence of the gods and therefore qualify as atheists. Which in D&D-land means they're what Asmodeus snacks on in his quest to be the greatest god ever.

Let's just...not talk about D&D's cosmology. At best, it's junk.

I think that means they're agnostics, not atheists. Atheists have a positive belief in the nonexistence of gods.

Also, what Peelee said.

[Algeh]

I really liked the visual effect used for V in the second panel. It's slightly different from the one used in 1033 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html) and the following pages, which I think is the only other time we've seen a sonic attack in the new art style. Those had the borders of the figure move, and this one it seems like there was more a of a blur instead.

[Mandor]

I think that means they're agnostics, not atheists. Atheists have a positive belief in the nonexistence of gods.

Also, what Peelee said.I am now having flashbacks to serious flamewars from the old Usenet alt.atheism group from the early 90's.
Suffice it to say many people use the same words for different things and NO GOOD can come from quibbling over the fine points.

[Kish]

Which in D&D-land means they're what Asmodeus snacks on in his quest to be the greatest god ever.
Is "D&D-land" here being interchanged with "the Forgotten Realms"? Because, like the other people who have responded to this, it's news to me that atheism gets afterlife punishment anywhere else.

[hamishspence]

Well, where else would be better? If they go to their mother's afterlife then they at least get to see their mother again at some point. If they go to the True Neutral afterlife (which I think is where they strictly ought to go by RAW) that's less likely to be the case.

In BOED, Zaphkiel (LG, most powerful of archons) is supposed to be the protector of the souls of "stillborn babies and sacrificed children" - which would suggest that in the 3.5 "generic-verse" a soul that hasn't really had a chance to choose a deity or an alignment, gets Celestia by default.



Look, if you really want to get technical, the kids probably haven't formally accepted the existence of the gods and therefore qualify as atheists. Which in D&D-land means they're what Asmodeus snacks on in his quest to be the greatest god ever.

That was according to one 2nd ed book (Guide to Hell) - it didn't entirely make sense even then.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2h1yf?Serpent-Asmodeus


Two things:

1) GtH claims anyone who doesn't worship a deity or believe in an afterlife goes directly to him and gets eaten, regardless of alignment or anything else. Of course this violates everything we already knew about petitioners and where they go, and there's plenty of precident that GtH is trying to toss out the window in this particular instance. Plus, with the Athar, their 'Great Unknown' has some potential links to things believed in, in different capacities, by other factions, and those factions aren't linked to disbelief in the gods is lack of faith etc. [See the 'Source' of the Godsmen, etc].

The Athar don't believe there aren't deities, they just think that the so-called deities are just powerful entities that aren't worthy of mortal worship. The Athar have faith, they just don't believe in the true divinity of the commonly accepted gods. Many of the Athar believe in, and worship, something they feel transcends the so-called gods. GtH claiming that they lack faith really does them a disservice, and on the other hand I can't see why lack of faith would be a trait that should pull a soul towards Baator. It's not inherently LE, I'd suggest it's more apt for Carceri or the Waste, self-entrapment/despair/etc.

In the context of 3e books like Complete Divine, it's pretty clear that alignment trumps belief or lack of belief - except when belief is really strong.


Complete Divine page 126:

If you were a cleric or devout worshipper of a specific deity, your soul goes to the outer home that is home to that deity, even if your alignment doesn't exactly match that deity.
...
If you didn't worship a deity, or if religion wasn't an important part of your life (as demonstrated by your behaviour, especially right before death) your soul goes to an outer plane that matches your alignment. In some cases, a number of planes might be appropriate. For example, a chaotic neutral character's soul might go to Ysgard, Limbo, or Pandemonium. Decide which plane matches that character's behaviour best, giving extra weight to how the character behaved shortly before death.

[Shining Wrath]

I haven't been watching the forae that much - what does DurkonT mean?

It's a mathematical notation meaning the transpose of a matrix - if you draw a line from the upper left to the lower right, those elements don't move; the others switch places with their counterparts, e.g., the value in the upper right corner goes to the lower left, and the value in the lower left to the upper right.

For our purposes, it means the vampire controlling Durkon's body is Durkon, only twisted around.

[hamishspence]

Regarding Asmodeus's support (but not creation) of the Athar - I would speculate that, in the context of 3.5, this is because, according to the Pact Primeval (Fiendish Codex 2), people with high Corruption (and Obesiance) ratings, go to him regardless of their deity, depending on their alignment.

(Lawful Good/Neutral person with Corruption 9+ would go to him regardless of deity or alignment - and, assuming symmetry in the Obesiance system compared to the Corruption system - Chaotic Evil/Neutral person with Obesiance 9+ goes to him too. Possibly, person with both scores at 9+ goes to him regardless of alignment)

One Corrupt act, is "desecrating" (without italics - so not the spell Desecrate) a Good church or temple.

Assuming symmetry, desecrating a Chaotic temple would be a comparable Obesiant act.

A "militant Athar" who goes around desecrating all temples/churches they come across, will be racking up the Corruption (and Obesiance) rapidly.

Thus - Asmodeus would quietly encourage militance among the Athar - a few Temples of Asmodeus being burned in the process, is, for him, a small price to pay, for extra souls.

[SlashDash]

Just showing that original poster has no need of looking for 5ed. rules on a 3.5ed set, specially when a 3.5ed rule can explain the situation. Plainly putting it: sneak attacks can't damage undeads.

Even more so, it was referenced in the comics.


Redcloak's brother had to get a special item in order to make a sneak attack against Xykon.
So obviously they don't normally work on undead even if you don't know the D&D ruleset in question.

Considering that Xykon found an item that prevents it and Ochul might have put it in his report, the order might not bother looking for something similar.

[Kish]

Regarding Asmodeus's support (but not creation) of the Athar - I would speculate that, in the context of 3.5, this is because, according to the Pact Primeval (Fiendish Codex 2), people with high Corruption (and Obesiance) ratings, go to him regardless of their deity, depending on their alignment.

(Lawful Good/Neutral person with Corruption 9+ would go to him regardless of deity or alignment - and, assuming symmetry in the Obesiance system compared to the Corruption system - Chaotic Evil/Neutral person with Obesiance 9+ goes to him too. Possibly, person with both scores at 9+ goes to him regardless of alignment)

One Corrupt act, is "desecrating" (without italics - so not the spell Desecrate) a Good church or temple.

Assuming symmetry, desecrating a Chaotic temple would be a comparable Obesiant act.
If there's that kind of symmetry, shouldn't desecrating a Lawful Evil temple be a comparable Pure/Rebellious act, leaving someone who desecrates every temple in sight in a state of both having to go to Asmodeus and being unable to go to Asmodeus?

[hamishspence]

The Pact Primeval quote is "the good mortals do is outweighed by the taint of sin"

translation - there are no "pure points" that you can rack up to try and counterweigh corruption points.

The implication with Obesiant Acts is that the same principle applies to Law and Chaos - you can't just do Chaotic deeds in the hope of them outweighing Lawful deeds - the "taint of law" is hard to scrub off - you'd actually have to engage in real atonement.

[Kish]

While, as a lifelong believer in Chaos, I am amused by Law being treated as a form of corruption that needs to be atoned for...

...I am generally inclined to frown at a system that comes down to privileging inaction over action.

[hamishspence]

We know from OOTS at least, that Roy's "lack of piety" is considered irrelevant by the deva assessing him. So, in OOTS at least, you don't need to worry about having a patron deity.


And the "If you hadn't gone back, then, regardless of what happened, your file would be chucked in the TN bin" does sound like "some unatoned-for acts make a huge difference to your afterlife destination."

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's the general rule for all mortals who die very young, it seems - they go to their mother's afterlife. Race has nothing to do with it. This is the cosmos being ageist.
I'd classify it as being closer to that thing where fathers usually don't get custody of the kids. I mean, if you don't have a plane specifically for mortals incapable of having an alignment (e.g, the late Catholic plane of Limbo), you still need to put the babies somewhere, and the parents would appreciate being able to see their kids in the Afterlife.
And if you do have that plane, you have to answer a whole load of related questions. How old do kids need to be before they're responsible for their own alignment? How about mortals with various psychological or familial issues which prevent them from developing normally? How about mortals who don't have those issues, but nevertheless refuse to develop normally? And for that matter, do you send pets to this place, too?



Well, if it means sending them to the "Deep end of the alignment pool", you could argue that's definiltely NOT better. Even in the real world there are some kids who are NOT better off with their parents.

But I think it's safe to say we're not going to see a Celesitial Child Protective Services manifest, and I can't think of any DM/GM who would ever want to open said barrels of worms.
I'm reluctant to open the barrel of worms associated with dead babies, let alone dead baby souls! (Though CCPS would probably be the least problematic way to sort out these complications.)



In BOED, Zaphkiel (LG, most powerful of archons) is supposed to be the protector of the souls of "stillborn babies and sacrificed children" - which would suggest that in the 3.5 "generic-verse" a soul that hasn't really had a chance to choose a deity or an alignment, gets Celestia by default.
I wonder how CG parents think about them. It's a shame they can't organize an orderly protest...



I think that means they're agnostics, not atheists. Atheists have a positive belief in the nonexistence of gods.
Well...there's no atheist canon or anything, but I consider myself an atheist despite not having a particularly strong belief about the nonexistence of gods. I just consider the evidence for gods to be too weak to justify serious consideration, and consider agnosticism to imply that you are seriously considering both the existence and non-existence of gods.
"Atheist" is one of those terms which is pretty subjective. My personal rule of thumb for the dividing line between "agnostic" and "atheist" is what they call themselves. So, bringing this back to the original topic, I'm not sure babies can really be considered either.




Let's just...not talk about D&D's cosmology. At best, it's junk.
So's The Room, but that's still fun to talk about.




While, as a lifelong believer in Chaos, I am amused by Law being treated as a form of corruption that needs to be atoned for...
...I am generally inclined to frown at a system that comes down to privileging inaction over action.
As a lifelong supporter of Law*, I am also amused by that.
I'm also inclined to frown on systems which privilege inaction over action, but I consider that as likely to show up on either side of the law/chaos spectrum. The big difference is whether the action taken is centralized or not.

*As much because I'm sick of the rebellious criminals being treated as heroic by default and the System being treated as Evil by default as anything. I swear, that crap is everywhere...I even had an Advent sermon where the pastor condemned Herod for conducting a census because he would be able to tax people more accurately (not his words). I mean, don't get me wrong, Herod did some enormous **** moves in and out of the Gospels, but wanting his tax collectors to collect the right amount of tax is not one of them.

[Kish]

We know from OOTS at least, that Roy's "lack of piety" is considered irrelevant by the deva assessing him. So, in OOTS at least, you don't need to worry about having a patron deity.


And the "If you hadn't gone back, then, regardless of what happened, your file would be chucked in the TN bin" does sound like "some unatoned-for acts make a huge difference to your afterlife destination."
It appears to me like, in OotS, if you act Lawful and Good, you wind up in the Lawful Good afterlife--and so on. Roy, when he abandoned Elan, wasn't acting Lawful or Good, thus it put his afterlife in question. Simple, straightforward, easily comprehensible without D&D knowledge (at least to someone who isn't invested in the "alignment has nothing to do with real-world morality" tosh). I don't see the value of bringing in weirdness from relatively obscure supplements about entities who have never been mentioned in OotS.

[hamishspence]

Devils and the Blood War exist in OOTS "Blood War, what's it good for?" - although it's true that Asmodeus hasn't been mentioned yet, nor has the Pact Primeval.

Aside from Roy's assessment - we don't know much about how The Giant "weights" alignment if at all - is it "weighted toward Law and Evil" the way FC2 has it, or not?

[Fyraltari]

It appears to me like, in OotS, if you act Lawful and Good, you wind up in the Lawful Good afterlife--and so on. Roy, when he abandoned Elan, wasn't acting Lawful or Good, thus it put his afterlife in question. Simple, straightforward, easily comprehensible without D&D knowledge (at least to someone who isn't invested in the "alignment has nothing to do with real-world morality" tosh). I don't see the value of bringing in weirdness from relatively obscure supplements about entities who have never been mentioned in OotS.

This looks like the most sensible approach here. There are nine type of behaviour and nine afterlives. You get the afterlife that fits you and if you are too young to have a moral you go with family.*

It's not perfect but there is no way to make a fictionnal afterlife that would fit everybody's conception of justice. This one is good enough (and close enough to D&d) to fit the Giant's purposes so, don't expect him to go into further details thzat would just clog the story.

*Assuming you are not a dwarf

[hamishspence]

This looks like the most sensible approach here. There are nine type of behaviour and nine afterlives.

Actually there are more like 16 or so afterlives:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

"heaven, hell, valhalla, the abyss, limbo, nirvana, and a dozen more in between".

I'd go with OOTS having the Great Wheel's 17 - one for each Outer Plane including the True Neutral one.

As The Giant put it:



There are only 17 Outer Planes; Roy's alignment would have to match one of them, because you can't not have an alignment.




if you are too young to have a moral you go with family.*
Mother specifically:



If you really need an answer, let's say that babies go wherever their mother is/will go, because of the psychic umbilical cord that stretches through the Uterine Plane. When you get older and determine your own alignment, marauding githyanki doctors with special silver clamps cut the cord. Because why not?

And since people have mentioned how creeped out they are about the fact that Eric doesn't ever get to grow up, let's say that when everyone who knew him in life gets over their baggage about his death and ascends higher up the mountain, he either reincarnates or grows up or something. I don't know what. Something. Whatever doesn't creep you out. Again, not important to the story.

I speculate that this overrides the whole "die with honour" thing for dwarves - a baby dwarf does not have to have "died with honour" to avoid Hel - only their mother's actions matter, until the baby grows up.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Even more so, it was referenced in the comics.


Redcloak's brother had to get a special item in order to make a sneak attack against Xykon.
So obviously they don't normally work on undead even if you don't know the D&D ruleset in question.

Considering that Xykon found an item that prevents it and Ochul might have put it in his report, the order might not bother looking for something similar.


Xykon's toy was a Ring of Positive Energy Protection, which it looks like he lost before Soon started smacking him around the throne room.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon's toy was a Ring of Positive Energy Protection, which it looks like he lost before Soon started smacking him around the throne room.

:xykon: I haven't lost it. I knows exactly where it is. It's with my keys.

[2D8HP]

It appears to me like, in OotS, if you act Lawful and Good, you wind up in the Lawful Good afterlife--and so on. Roy, when he abandoned Elan, wasn't acting Lawful or Good, thus it put his afterlife in question. Simple, straightforward, easily comprehensible without D&D knowledge (at least to someone who isn't invested in the "alignment has nothing to do with real-world morality" tosh). I don't see the value of bringing in weirdness from relatively obscure supplements about entities who have never been mentioned in OotS.


(Emphasis mine)

When I last took the
What Kind of Dungeons and Dragons Character Would You Be? (http://www.easydamus.com/character.html) test

it said that I'm a "Lawful Good Human Wizard (7th Level)", but IIRC, in the last few years that I've periodically taken the

Alignment Test (http://www.easydamus.com/alignmenttest.html)

I've been Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, True Neutral, and (twice) Lawful Neutral.

In reading the descriptions of the Alignment "typical behaviors" I can think of times that I"ve felt that they all described me at different times in my life, sometimes most of them at different times in the same day!

My guess is that those of us who feel that their own behavior consistently fits one of the nine alignments (so not me), are more likely to feel that the D&D alignments aren't "tosh", but almost forty years after I first encountered the then 5-point "Alignment system", I'm still unsure of how to apply it, so you tell me.

Please?

[hamishspence]

Xykon's toy was a Ring of Positive Energy Protection, which it looks like he lost before Soon started smacking him around the throne room.

Thing is - there's a distinct lack of Positive Energy Weapons That Grant Sneak Attack Against Undead in the rules. And a distinct lack of Positive Energy Protection items that also grant immunity to sneak attacks. Both are home-brew.

The Positive Energy Protection ring from Planar Handbook protects you from the Positive Dominant trait of the Positive Energy Plane - but it doesn't do anything about positive energy damage, (though it does block positive energy spells), or Sneak Attack.

The easiest way to replicate Right-Eye's weapon in regular rules isn't via Positive Energy specifically, but via the Truedeath Crystal from Magic Item Compendium (though the weapon itself could do positive energy in addition to that - maybe via being Sacred - MIC).

And the easiest item-based way to grant invulnerability to critical hits, is via the Rod of Invulnerability from Epic Handbook. (Heavy Fortification armour does the same thing, but the Rod provides a much wider range of protections and doesn't interfere with casting)

EDIT: Rod of invulnerability does not specifically block sneak attacks, only critical hits. "Ring of Heavy Fortification" makes more sense here, since Armour of Heavy Fortification grants both.

Not that it matters, since the description of Sneak Attack itself says immunity to crits comes with immunity to sneak attacks as well.

Having Xykon's item be a Ring version of the Rod of Invulnerability, or alternatively a "Heavy Fortification Ring" might be a good way of making the scene work. Heavy Fortification is cheaper though.



So - Sacred +3 (or higher) Dagger with a Greater Truedeath Crystal (since Right-Eye specifically mentions the Positive Energy), vs Heavy Fortification Ring of Positive Energy Protection.

[KorvinStarmast]

Suffice it to say many people use the same words for different things and NO GOOD can come from quibbling over the fine points. Yeah, that flashback isn't nice the way acid flashbacks are. :smallcool: Agree we need to revert to our colorful, alternate reality of OoTS verse, where giraffes come in "summer of love" colors. :smallcool:
Don't you mean Paninii and Circii? :smalltongue: I thought it was Jamie Lannister who was all about panini in Cersei ... though any jokes about a baguette will also be entertained. :smalltongue:

you'd actually have to engage in real atonement. Heh, kind of like RL, and along the lines of Soon's remarks to Miko about redemption being a very special thing.

[Kish]

(Emphasis mine)

When I last took the
What Kind of Dungeons and Dragons Character Would You Be? (http://www.easydamus.com/character.html) test

it said that I'm a "Lawful Good Human Wizard (7th Level)", but IIRC, in the last few years that I've periodically taken the

Alignment Test (http://www.easydamus.com/alignmenttest.html)

I've been Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, True Neutral, and (twice) Lawful Neutral.

In reading the descriptions of the Alignment "typical behaviors" I can think of times that I"ve felt that they all described me at different times in my life, sometimes most of them at different times in the same day!

My guess is that those of us who feel that their own behavior consistently fits one of the nine alignments (so not me), are more likely to feel that the D&D alignments aren't "tosh", but almost forty years after I first encountered the then 5-point "Alignment system", I'm still unsure of how to apply it, so you tell me.

Please?
Those tests are invariably designed according to the beliefs, prejudices, and assumptions of the person or people who designed them. (The official one released by WotC when 3ed came out gave major evil points for saying "yes" to "would the character assassinate their country's ruler?" while I was going wait, what if they live in [a place like the Empire of Blood]?


Good Vs. Evil

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
[...]
Law Vs. Chaos

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
So what there do you think describes you? I'm definitely Chaotic and I'd like to think Good, but then I reflect that I'm spending a lot of time that I could be joining the Peace Corps arguing online instead, or playing computer games while people starve in third-world countries.

[hamishspence]

(The official one released by WotC when 3ed came out gave major evil points for saying "yes" to "would the character assassinate their country's ruler?" while I was going wait, what if they live in [a place like the Empire of Blood]?


It does have the "for money" proviso.


When offered money to slip poison into the king's drink:


+1 Evil: do so if they think they can get away with it

+2 Evil: do so, having done similar things before.

[Kish]

It's noways Evil to get paid to off Tarquin, is what I'm saying.

(For that matter, adventurers, and not the murderhobo ones played by people I'm glad I'm not playing with, get richer as a result of killing evil people pretty much constantly.)

[hamishspence]

It's noways Evil to get paid to off Tarquin, is what I'm saying.

If your primary motive for the killing was the pay, then (at least by BoVD) it would be - since Murder is any killing done with a nefarious motive, like "personal gain".

While it's possible for assassination to be nonevil (Slayer of Domiel) assassination for money alone is consistently portrayed as Evil in D&D. Only when the victim's a "creature of consummate, irredeemable evil" like an unrepentant fiend, can one say "not an evil act, though it's not a good act".




Interestingly, the quiz places other forms of "treason for profit" as Law/Chaos issues rather than Good/Evil ones:

When it comes to spying for a hostile foreign power (if offered a reasonably lucrative deal):

+1 Chaos: do so because the nation's secrets mean little to them
+2 Chaos: do so because they think the nation could stand to be knocked down a peg

though this may change in the face of actual invasion:


When it comes to defending the community when it's threatened with invasion:

+1 Evil: flee as soon as things look grim
+2 Evil: cut a deal with the invaders to act as a spy

[2D8HP]

Those tests are invariably designed according to the beliefs, prejudices, and assumptions of the person or people who designed them. (The official one released by WotC when 3ed came out gave major evil points for saying "yes" to "would the character assassinate their country's ruler?" while I was going wait, what if they live in [a place like the Empire of Blood]?


The 3e alignment test (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fdnd%2F20001222b) is still archived on-line, and there dozens of amateur ones.

I thought that there was a 5e one as well, but all I can find now is a What Class Are You? (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/class/index.asp) test.


So what there do you think describes you? I'm definitely Chaotic and I'd like to think Good, but then I reflect that I'm spending a lot of time that I could be joining the Peace Corps arguing online instead, or playing computer games while people starve in third-world countries.


Yeah I'm all over the map with the SRD Alignment descriptions, I choose to work for less pay and work for the common good instead of more profit, so "personal sacrifices to help others", but I drive an automobile most every day and so risk a potential "kill without qualms if doing so is convenient", and while I try to have "honor, trustworthiness, and reliability", I most definitely have a problem of "resentment toward legitimate authority" (especially bosses, and the owners of some firms I've worked for), how law-abiding I am depends on how tired of fearful of being late for work I am, whether I'll give to a begger depends on if I had to unclog a drain in the autopsy room or had an otherwise lousy day, et cetera.

For my D&D PC's I tend to put "Chaotic Good" if I'm feeling ambitious about playing a Robin Hood-like hero, and think the rest of the players will go for it, but otherwise I just put "Neutral", and assume that will cover whatever.


As an aside, does anyone notice that now that Halan/Eley are an "item" both, but especially Haley seem to be acting more responsible?

[Keltest]

If your primary motive for the killing was the pay, then (at least by BoVD) it would be - since Murder is any killing done with a nefarious motive, like "personal gain".

While it's possible for assassination to be nonevil (Slayer of Domiel) assassination for money alone is consistently portrayed as Evil in D&D. Only when the victim's a "creature of consummate, irredeemable evil" like an unrepentant fiend, can one say "not an evil act, though it's not a good act".




Interestingly, the quiz places other forms of "treason for profit" as Law/Chaos issues rather than Good/Evil ones:

When it comes to spying for a hostile foreign power (if offered a reasonably lucrative deal):

+1 Chaos: do so because the nation's secrets mean little to them
+2 Chaos: do so because they think the nation could stand to be knocked down a peg

though this may change in the face of actual invasion:


When it comes to defending the community when it's threatened with invasion:

+1 Evil: flee as soon as things look grim
+2 Evil: cut a deal with the invaders to act as a spy

I would also add that assassinating Tarquin would be unlikely to resolve the problem of the greater Empire of Blood. At best, it would collapse into an anarchic uncontrolled region where the strongest rule tiny baronies until one of the other kingdoms or conquerors comes in and takes over. Unless youre fighting against Sauron and killing the leader magically destroys all the enemy soldiers and his followers, just assassinating the leadership and then leaving tends to leave things just as bad, if not worse, and that's all I will say on that subject since there are a lot of real world parallels.

[DaggerPen]

I'd classify it as being closer to that thing where fathers usually don't get custody of the kids. I mean, if you don't have a plane specifically for mortals incapable of having an alignment (e.g, the late Catholic plane of Limbo), you still need to put the babies somewhere, and the parents would appreciate being able to see their kids in the Afterlife.
And if you do have that plane, you have to answer a whole load of related questions. How old do kids need to be before they're responsible for their own alignment? How about mortals with various psychological or familial issues which prevent them from developing normally? How about mortals who don't have those issues, but nevertheless refuse to develop normally? And for that matter, do you send pets to this place, too?



I'm reluctant to open the barrel of worms associated with dead babies, let alone dead baby souls! (Though CCPS would probably be the least problematic way to sort out these complications.)



I wonder how CG parents think about them. It's a shame they can't organize an orderly protest...



Well...there's no atheist canon or anything, but I consider myself an atheist despite not having a particularly strong belief about the nonexistence of gods. I just consider the evidence for gods to be too weak to justify serious consideration, and consider agnosticism to imply that you are seriously considering both the existence and non-existence of gods.
"Atheist" is one of those terms which is pretty subjective. My personal rule of thumb for the dividing line between "agnostic" and "atheist" is what they call themselves. So, bringing this back to the original topic, I'm not sure babies can really be considered either.




So's The Room, but that's still fun to talk about.




As a lifelong supporter of Law*, I am also amused by that.
I'm also inclined to frown on systems which privilege inaction over action, but I consider that as likely to show up on either side of the law/chaos spectrum. The big difference is whether the action taken is centralized or not.

*As much because I'm sick of the rebellious criminals being treated as heroic by default and the System being treated as Evil by default as anything. I swear, that crap is everywhere...I even had an Advent sermon where the pastor condemned Herod for conducting a census because he would be able to tax people more accurately (not his words). I mean, don't get me wrong, Herod did some enormous **** moves in and out of the Gospels, but wanting his tax collectors to collect the right amount of tax is not one of them.


As a friendly, in no way authoritative note, you may want to tread carefully on dropping references to textual specifics of active real world religions. I'm not sure quite where the mods draw the line, but better safe than sorry, etc.

(Also, wow, the Forgotten Realms cosmology is... something.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah. They were trying to patch around certain problems and it didn't work at all (like most patches). I don't think I've followed D&D Afterlife Cosmology since some point in 2nd Edition (which would also explain why what I remember is FR lore, I guess).


When I last took the
What Kind of Dungeons and Dragons Character Would You Be? (http://www.easydamus.com/character.html) test

it said that I'm a "Lawful Good Human Wizard (7th Level)", but IIRC, in the last few years that I've periodically taken the

Alignment Test (http://www.easydamus.com/alignmenttest.html)

I've been Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, True Neutral, and (twice) Lawful Neutral.

Yeah, automated tests are incredibly swingy. You can actually get up to a ten point delta on an IQ test depending on when you take it (peaks vs lows of your personal activity cycle, testing at 7:00AM sucks when your peak activity cycle is late evening). And personality tests (which is what those alignment things basically are) can shift radically with just a sugar rush (which will bounce you from Introvert to Extrovert, which is partially determined by how fast you answer).

[GreatWyrmGold]

It's not perfect but there is no way to make a fictionnal afterlife that would fit everybody's conception of justice.
How about if the Powers That Be abolished death and the afterlife? Most of the problems that come with overcrowding only matter if people can die, and the rest could probably be alleviated by any being capable of dictating afterlives.
And if there is no afterlife designer, I'm not sure it makes sense to call any afterlife that exists "just" or "unjust". I mean, nobody calls hurricanes unjust. Right?



I would also add that assassinating Tarquin would be unlikely to resolve the problem of the greater Empire of Blood. At best, it would collapse into an anarchic uncontrolled region where the strongest rule tiny baronies until one of the other kingdoms or conquerors comes in and takes over.
I kinda want to run a campaign where the PCs try to topple dictator after dictator, but since they never bother to resolve the underlying causes of dictatorship, they never really get anywhere. They just keep dredging up new tools for dictators to use, causing a conveniently escalating level of dictator power.
...But my gaming group probably wouldn't go for that kind of thing. Complex, meaningful storylines work well in other media, even other interactive media, but nobody goes to TRPGs for them.

[Fyraltari]

How about if the Powers That Be abolished death and the afterlife? Most of the problems that come with overcrowding only matter if people can die, and the rest could probably be alleviated by any being capable of dictating afterlives.

Sure if you find eternal boredom enjoyable.

... Shudders.


And if there is no afterlife designer, I'm not sure it makes sense to call any afterlife that exists "just" or "unjust". I mean, nobody calls hurricanes unjust. Right?
Yeah but the whole concept of the afterlife is usually that no-one goes unpunished/unrewarded. So, if you are not even going to try to make it just, why even bother?

[brian 333]

Justice only matters to the Lawfully aligned. Everyone else knows the multiverse is unjust.

In Rich's extrapolation of the D&D afterlife justice is not the issue at all. Suitability is the question.

If one is Lawful Good, one goes to an afterlife in which an orderly set of rules creates a beneficial setting for the LG soul to grow and merge with the essence of LGness..

If one Lawful Evil, one goes to an heirarchical despotism where the labyrinthine system of rules are designed to maintain the power basd of the beings in charge while crushing the individuality of the souls with LE alignment until they either navigate ths maze of conflicting rules and attain power or they become the funk that sticks to your shoes when you walk across the floor

If one is Chaotic one is sent to formless, friendless Limbo where one exists in eternal solitude until they forget everything they ever were.

It is not a just system any more than the campaign world itself is just. Ask the cricket if the chamelion is just.

The 'afterlife as reward and punishment' model is getting in the way of understanding. The afterlife is no more a punishment or reward than it is for a log to be burned or a corpse to decay. Instead, it is a process of rendering the soul down to its constituent parts, breaking it up and sorting it back into its basic building blocks for later reuse.

[hamishspence]

In Rich's extrapolation of the D&D afterlife justice is not the issue at all. Suitability is the question.

If one is Lawful Good, one goes to an afterlife in which an orderly set of rules creates a beneficial setting for the LG soul to grow and merge with the essence of LGness..

If one Lawful Evil, one goes to an heirarchical despotism where the labyrinthine system of rules are designed to maintain the power basd of the beings in charge while crushing the individuality of the souls with LE alignment until they either navigate ths maze of conflicting rules and attain power or they become the funk that sticks to your shoes when you walk across the floor

If one is Chaotic one is sent to formless, friendless Limbo where one exists in eternal solitude until they forget everything they ever were.

It is not a just system any more than the campaign world itself is just. Ask the cricket if the chamelion is just.

The 'afterlife as reward and punishment' model is getting in the way of understanding. The afterlife is no more a punishment or reward than it is for a log to be burned or a corpse to decay. Instead, it is a process of rendering the soul down to its constituent parts, breaking it up and sorting it back into its basic building blocks for later reuse.

Or, in The Giant's own words:



I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

[Keltest]

Justice only matters to the Lawfully aligned. Everyone else knows the multiverse is unjust.

In Rich's extrapolation of the D&D afterlife justice is not the issue at all. Suitability is the question.

If one is Lawful Good, one goes to an afterlife in which an orderly set of rules creates a beneficial setting for the LG soul to grow and merge with the essence of LGness..

If one Lawful Evil, one goes to an heirarchical despotism where the labyrinthine system of rules are designed to maintain the power basd of the beings in charge while crushing the individuality of the souls with LE alignment until they either navigate ths maze of conflicting rules and attain power or they become the funk that sticks to your shoes when you walk across the floor

If one is Chaotic one is sent to formless, friendless Limbo where one exists in eternal solitude until they forget everything they ever were.

It is not a just system any more than the campaign world itself is just. Ask the cricket if the chamelion is just.

The 'afterlife as reward and punishment' model is getting in the way of understanding. The afterlife is no more a punishment or reward than it is for a log to be burned or a corpse to decay. Instead, it is a process of rendering the soul down to its constituent parts, breaking it up and sorting it back into its basic building blocks for later reuse.

The concept of justice lives on the good-evil axis, not law/chaos. Good characters believe in justice. Neutral characters like the concept of it but wont go out of their way to bring it about. Evil characters scoff at the idea.

Where law and chaos differ is how to bring about justice. Lawful Good believes in due process, systemic gathering of evidence, deliberation, and authority enforcing the punishment. Chaotic Good believes that the inherent slowness and risks of due process (ie that everybody knows somebody did it, but they cant prove it) means that it doesn't serve justice well, and that sometimes it means you need to act quickly and decisively to bring about justice.

[Shining Wrath]

While discussing where babies go - first, I think Rich's answer should be treated as at least somewhat sarcastic in intent (silver cord going through the Umbilical Plane?), rather than definitive.

Another topic is whether or not there's a nature versus nurture issue; we know, per standard 3.5 cosmology and also IIRC word of Giant, that Outsiders more or less have fixed alignment. A devil that stops being both Lawful and Evil stops being a devil. The question is whether or not mortal entities partake of this "natural alignment" to any degree (i.e., 1.00000000001 on a 1-10 scale, or 5, or 9). Are goblins naturally CE with some rare exceptions due to nurture / weirdness? Or can you take a goblin baby you find alongside the road and raise it to be LG without any conflict with its nature whatsoever?

And if you do raise a goblin to be LG, and that female goblin has a baby which dies tragically minutes after childbirth, is that a LG baby, or a CE one?

[Skull the Troll]

At actual OotS characters' level, a plain +1 on hit is negligible. Haley may have1 a DEX score so huge that it's impaling Thor, her build may1 be optimized to archery combat and she has a fairy decent magic arrow. Plus, Greg is sitting on a chair, which denies him all DEX, dodge and other fancy bonus to AC. And against Greg's death-given bullet-proof (vampire damage reduction), a plain +1 on damage is negligible. Still no worth being less than 30ft from a powerful undead divine spellcaster.

1: I'm not accounting for unoptimized builds, the OotS members' trademark.

When the literal fate of the world is at stake, I think you take every +1 you can get. Is it smart? We will see. Shes pretty warded up and there's no telling what happened off panel or what any one of those numerous wands in her inventory are.

[hamishspence]

While discussing where babies go - first, I think Rich's answer should be treated as at least somewhat sarcastic in intent (silver cord going through the Umbilical Plane?), rather than definitive.
The silver cord bit might have an element of snark, but "mother's afterlife destination determines baby's afterlife destination" seemed to be the intended takeaway.


we know, per standard 3.5 cosmology and also IIRC word of Giant, that Outsiders more or less have fixed alignment. A devil that stops being both Lawful and Evil stops being a devil.
Except - the MM makes it crystal clear that an outsider with an alignment subtype can change alignment, even if it will be unique or very rare.

3.5 splatbooks like Elder Evils have shown us that "an angel who stops being Good and starts being Evil" is still an angel, and not (yet) a fiend.



Are goblins naturally CE with some rare exceptions due to nurture / weirdness? Or can you take a goblin baby you find alongside the road and raise it to be LG without any conflict with its nature whatsoever?
I think The Giant's take is that (regardless of their mother determining their afterlife destination) their alignment is not especially "nature":

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12718923&postcount=148

No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.



if you do raise a goblin to be LG, and that female goblin has a baby which dies tragically minutes after childbirth, is that a LG baby, or a CE one?

Based on this:


Yes, babies of Evil mothers go to the Evil afterlives. No, it's not fair.

Fairness is not a cosmological principle, fairness is a philosophical concept that not everyone agrees on. This is not strictly a Good/Evil split either; one could easily imagine Chaotic Good folks being in favor of a process that was rampantly unfair if that unfairness benefited the weak, with Lawful Evil folks opposed to the same system because they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps without it and so should everyone else. One could argue that "survival of the fittest" is the ultimate in fairness, in that it treats everyone equally with no exceptions, but it's not an ideal that most Good people promote.

Since the OOTS cosmos was created by a committee of equal gods with a wide spectrum of alignments, philosophies, and cultural tendencies, justice is only enforced to the degree that those who favor justice could negotiate its enforcement. In some instances, they were forced to compromise and allow unjust procedures in certain areas for the sake of avoiding Snarl 2.0. In this case, the relative fairness of having one rule that applied to everyone trumped the potential injustice of innocent babies going to Hell.

Further, if it really bothers you, remember that my previous statement said that if you want to imagine those babies reincarnating eventually, you could. Maybe the psychic impressions left by spending time in Hell subtly encourages many of them to veer away from Evil in their next life. Or maybe Good priests use these facts to try to sway Evil parents away from their dastardly paths: "Turn away from the darkness, lest you drag your swaddling babe down to the Pit in your wake!" Just because it's awful to think about the individual circumstances doesn't mean that it doesn't lead to a net increase in Good over the aggregate.

And just to be clear: There is no "overgod" in OOTS at all. There are the nonsentient cosmological forces of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos), which can be tapped directly for clerical power if you prefer not to go through a deific intermediary, but they have no capacity to take action any more than the force of gravity does. They certainly took no part in shaping the rules and procedures of the OOTS afterlife, as that was entirely done by the gods themselves.

it would appear that, for any Evil or Good mother, their present alignment determines their child's afterlife destination until their child grows up. A LG goblin mother whose child dies young, would be "sending their child to the LG afterlife" by being LG themselves.

[Lord Torath]

Xykon's toy was a Ring of Positive Energy Protection, which it looks like he lost before Soon started smacking him around the throne room.


:xykon: I haven't lost it. I know exactly where it is. It's with my keys.Probably somewhere in the vicinity of the ruins of the Dungeon of Dorukon in the Redmountain hills. And the keys Xykon lost there probably don't fit anything anymore, either.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sure if you find eternal boredom enjoyable.

... Shudders.
Immortality is only boring if you're alone. I'm not sure why everyone being immortal would make for eternal boredom.


Yeah but the whole concept of the afterlife is usually that no-one goes unpunished/unrewarded. So, if you are not even going to try to make it just, why even bother?
I'm confused by this statement for two reasons.
1. It was in response to my statement that if the afterlife wasn't created by some being, it couldn't be just or unjust. I don't see ow this is related to my statement.
2. If you don't even try to make the afterlife, by definition, you haven't bothered to make it.




While discussing where babies go - first, I think Rich's answer should be treated as at least somewhat sarcastic in intent (silver cord going through the Umbilical Plane?), rather than definitive.
I'm sorry, how is being silly suggestion of sarcastic intent? The entire OotS cosmology is silly. (Sometimes by the Giant's intent, sometimes because Gygax didn't think it mattered that much.)


Another topic is whether or not there's a nature versus nurture issue... [snip]
Given that the Giant has expressed his loathing of that aspect of the alignment system, I'm guessing he'd fall on the nurture side. Which is also where I stand, because otherwise you're saying that some races are inherently evil schemers, which brushes rather close to some dangerous ideas in the real world.

[georgie_leech]

Given that the Giant has expressed his loathing of that aspect of the alignment system, I'm guessing he'd fall on the nurture side. Which is also where I stand, because otherwise you're saying that some races are inherently evil schemers, which brushes rather close to some dangerous ideas in the real world.

He's explicitly talked about those ideas as a reason to look distastefully at "X creature is inherently evil from birth" in any media, which is why he writes against such things.

[2D8HP]

....along the lines of Soon's remarks to Miko about redemption being a very special thing.


Even though I knew the risk, I re-read the

OotS #464 "Not for Everyone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)" strip,

got misty eyed (again), and I then read the first page of the

OOTS #464 - The Discussion Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?47226-OOTS-464-The-Discussion-Thread)

and saw that some others had tears as well

I wasn't part of the Forum then (I was reading the strips in The Dragon and in the print books, as "on-line" wasn't something I did back then), but even now there still seems to be a lot of ill-will towards Miko, which I don't understand given her death scene.

Any ideas?

[georgie_leech]

Even though I knew the risk, I re-read the

OotS #464 "Not for Everyone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)" strip,

got misty eyed (again), and I then read the first page of the

OOTS #464 - The Discussion Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?47226-OOTS-464-The-Discussion-Thread)

and saw that some others had tears as well

I wasn't part of the Forum then (I was reading the strips in The Dragon and in the print books, as "on-line" wasn't something I did back then), but even now there still seems to be a lot of ill-will towards Miko, which I don't understand given her death scene.

Any ideas?

She was an extremely divisive character in terms of reactions by readers. Some still absolutely hate her. Death doesn't always equal redemption and all that, so not everyone sees a good death scene as a reason to stop hating the character.

For the record, I think she was very well executed, and I think how she was written and ended really added to the story so I don't hate her, but I wouldn't exactly want to know her in real life either.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Basically, she's a caricature of the absolute worst way to play a paladin, which far too many of us have direct experience with at the table. She was intended to stir up those emotions, although maybe not to that degree.

IOW, The Giant got a critical hit on Our Feels, again. And again with the death scene.

[Fyraltari]

Probably somewhere in the vicinity of the ruins of the Dungeon of Dorukon in the Redmountain hills. And the keys Xykon lost there probably don't fit anything anymore, either.
Unless he puts them on a key ring. Thoes wonderful devices that allow you to lose all your keys at once.



I'm confused by this statement for two reasons.
1. It was in response to my statement that if the afterlife wasn't created by some being, it couldn't be just or unjust. I don't see ow this is related to my statement.
2. If you don't even try to make the afterlife, by definition, you haven't bothered to make it.
But the author is still the one deciding how the afterlife works regardless of his decisionto include an afterlife-creating character. Unless you are discussing a non-fictionnal afterlife which would be against forum rules I think.



Immortality is only boring if you're alone. I'm not sure why everyone being immortal would make for eternal boredom.
You think outliving your loved ones is tough? Try outliving your love for them.

If you live forever there is no incentive to do anything. Whatever it is, you could do it if you put the effort since you have all the time you will ever need but why do it now?
And since whatever it is you make, not only will you outlive it, but you will spend infinitely more time without it than with it any way. That beautiful statue? Crumbled to dust. That magnificent city? Rusted away. That wondruous painting? The colors faded. That perfect society you and your friends created? Once the novelty wears off you will yearn for something else.
It might takes eons, but for an immortal, eons are less than the blink of an eye.
(That is the main reasons Tolkien's Elves come to envy the mortality of Men, by the way.)


And even you still decide to do things, what will you do next?

Existential dread is the terror one feels when one realizes that the universe holds no purpose for them, that unique thought they might be, they are not special, that their life has no intrinsic value. Existentialism teaches that in order to escape that dread, one must, instead of being paralysed by that fear, revel in the liberty that they have to choose their own purpose to decide what destiny they want to fullfill at their own little human scale.

But what happens when that purpose is fullfilled to the best of one's capacity? One chooses another, oftentimes to raise or help the new generations for their own upcoming struggle since they will soon die anyway. Yes it is true that in a hundred years for now we will all be dead, but right here, right now, we are alive.

But what if you are still alive in a hundred years? What if you fullfill every purpose? What do you do next?

You have mastered every human craft, learned everything their is to know on every subject, shagged everyone, perfected every art, every profession. You have changed your appearance and very body in every way, you have reach illumination through all the philosophies, you have indulged in every vice and exalted every virtue twice, you know every single written work by heart, you have solved every riddle, overcome every challenge discovered every truth, you have conquered space and visited every world, watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate, you randomly typed on a keyboard until you accidentally printed Hamlet (took you 59,905,035 years) you have tracked down and insulted every single being in creation in alphabetical order, you have watched a moutain rise and crumbled to dust, you have swimmed inside the heart of a star and hold a black hole in your hand. All because you could, just to see and feel something new.

You have witnessed,done and been everything.

All these other immortals? They're the same as you are. They have done the exact same things as you. Not in the same order sure, but the same things regardless. Your life experience are the same. You are the same. You have loved, betrayed, forgiven and hated every single one of them and every single one of them as loved, betrayed, forgiven and hated you in turn. You have nothing to say to them anymore, you exhausted every possible conversation ages ago. They have nothing to bring you and you have nothing to bring them. You don't feel anything for them anymore, they might as well b your reflections in a mirror.

In fact you don't feel anything for anything anymore you have experienced eveything several times over. You have made the universe your backyard and now yourare left with a backyard.

It's not even painful, you have become dulled to pain a looooong time ago.

You just feel empty inside, forever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

and ever

And all the time that you spent doing that? Just the blink of an eye compared to the time you have left.



I literally would rather die than live forever. I wouldn't mind living a few centuries more though.

[Kish]

If you live forever there is no incentive to do anything.[...]


I literally would rather die than live forever. I wouldn't mind living a few centuries more though.
I'm afraid I find the perspective you're describing incredibly bizarre. Bearing in mind that it is entirely speculative (even if you're an immortal, which I take leave to doubt somehow, you haven't lived forever yet)...obviously stories often treat immortality as something with its own hardcoded terrible price, because there's no drama if it's just happy-shiny.

[Fyraltari]

I'm afraid I find the perspective you're describing incredibly bizarre.
Thank you.


even if you're an immortal, which I take leave to doubt somehow, you haven't lived forever yet
I can neither confirm or deny...


Bearing in mind that it is entirely speculative ...obviously stories often treat immortality as something with its own hardcoded terrible price, because there's no drama if it's just happy-shiny.
Which is overkill, in my humble opinion.
"You shouldn't be sad you will eventually die because if you lived forever you would make the tree fairies sad" doesn'treally strike me as a better lesson than "you shouldn't be sad you will eventually die because living forever sucks as a concept". To each his own I guess.

EDIT: Does anybody remember the title of that one Asimov short story with the suicidal god?

[georgie_leech]

I'm afraid I find the perspective you're describing incredibly bizarre. Bearing in mind that it is entirely speculative (even if you're an immortal, which I take leave to doubt somehow, you haven't lived forever yet)...obviously stories often treat immortality as something with its own hardcoded terrible price, because there's no drama if it's just happy-shiny.

Even then... it seems kind of... I don't know the word. Defeatist? For the primary motivation to do things being the thought that you can't do it later. I mean, I don't want to read OotS because I'll die at some point, I read it because I enjoy it.

[Fyraltari]

Even then... it seems kind of... I don't know the word. Defeatist? For the primary motivation to do things being the thought that you can't do it later. I mean, I don't want to read OotS because I'll die at some point, I read it because I enjoy it.

Yes but reading OOTS isn't your purpose in life is it?

[georgie_leech]

Yes but reading OOTS isn't your purpose in life is it?

As oppose to...?

[Kish]

What's a "purpose in life"?

(Answer without breaking the rule against no religion here, if you can. :smalltongue:)

[Fyraltari]

As oppose to...?
I dunno, you tell me. It's your life not mine.

What's a "purpose in life"?

(Answer without breaking the rule against no religion here, if you can. :smalltongue:)

Whatever makes you go "I would rather not die today", what you feel give your existence worth, what you want to have accomplished before you die.