Crossbow Sniper Maxing

[Benejeseret]

A few recent posts argued back and forth over whether crossbows or bows are more effective in the end.

The capstone arguement for bows is greater manyshot, however this simply allows shots to be made as a standard action. Yes, a standard action opens up various tactical options....but balanced against other abilities of the crossbow (crossbow sniper allowing 60' sneak) I am proposing crossbow can still be a strong contender.

I am asking for the most effective (that means total damage, tactical advantages, most likely to hit first etc) builds. For the sake of arguement will we assume lvl 20.

Races limited to those in the below books and 32 point buy in.

Only core books + Unearthed Arcana + Complete _____ accepted. Only base classes from these accepted. No Equipment other than the basic equipment of a crossbow (light/heavy/repeat) or a bow (short/long/composits)


I propose the starting as a strong crossbow build:

Strongheart Halfling Ranger3/Fighter4/Rogue13
Stats
Strength 6(-2)
Dexterity 25(+7)
Constitution 10(+0)
Intelligence 14(+2)
Wisdom 12(+1)
Charisma 12 (+1)

Something around 200 skill points. Into tumble, hide/move silently, spot, listen, open, disarm, etc

Fortitude save: +12, Reflex save:+20 (impr. evasion), Will save:+8

Feats:
Endurance,Improved Critical (light crossbow),Improved Initiative,Point Blank Shot,Precise Shot,Rapid Shot,Improved Precise Shot,Rapid Reload,Noncombatant[flaw],Vulnerable [Flaw],Track,Crossbow Sniper,Ranged Pin,Defensive Archery,Telling blow,Ranged Weapon mastery - Piercing,Power Critical,Weapon Focus (light crossbow),Weapon Specialization (light crossbow),Sneak Attack +7d6,Trapfinding,Evasion,Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Opportunist, Impr Evasion

Unarmored AC 16
Extra Stats/4lvls +5 Dex

+13 initiative (aggressive trait UA). Usually going first and targeting multiple targets to get max sneak attack usage (+7d6) within a 60' range, so full attack usually an option. Rapid shot for the extra attack.

30' range: +26/+26/+21/+16/+11 Light Crossbow 1d6+8 crit 17-20/x2+7d6
60' range: +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 Light Crossbow 1d6+7, crit 17-20/x2+7d6

If against one opponent, the first shot for sneak attack damage, the next one-two are Ranged Pins. Once pinned by a bolt the opponent is 'grappled' and so sneak attack damage once again applied to rest. Alternatively, simply blast away with all 5 shots hoping for a critical (17-20/x2 with power critical +4 confirm and telling blow adding sneak damage +7d6).

Every round gets one ranged AOO (+28 1d6+8, 17-20x2+7d6) within 15' or one after teammember hits opponent.

Weak in HtH, but with +13 initiative, a 60' range on sneak attack, ranged pins, and ranged AOO, and a high tumble to get out of combat when needed, I think he is alright.

Now,

1) Is there a better crossbow build out there?
2) Is there a bow build that blows this guy away?

[goat]

Well, if you really want to snipe in the normal sense of the word, you'd want to give him a gnome crossbow sight from the Arms and Equipment guide. Then he can shoot things up to 240ft away without any penalties.

Which is nice, if you're not allowed access to epic feats and distant shot.

[Quietus]

Well, if you really want to snipe in the normal sense of the word, you'd want to give him a gnome crossbow sight from the Arms and Equipment guide. Then he can shoot things up to 240ft away without any penalties.

Which is nice, if you're not allowed access to epic feats and distant shot.

You wouldn't get sneak attack on those 240 foot shots though, would you?

[Alveanerle]

By no means a critique, but being a newbie i am i'd just want to ask you for explaining some possibly obvious things in the above build.


+13 initiative (aggressive trait UA). Usually going first and targeting multiple targets to get max sneak attack usage (+7d6) within a 60' range, so full attack usually an option.

Why would targetting multiple targets increase the efficiency of sneak attacks? Also, this is for the first round of combat, not the surprise round in which you have only a standard action, right?


If against one opponent, the first shot for sneak attack damage,

Why? If you are not dependant on invisibility, but rather on you going first in the first round, why only the first attack would be subject to Sneak Attack treatment?



Every round gets one ranged AOO (+28 1d6+8, 17-20x2+7d6) within 15' or one after teammember hits opponent.
And again - why? The opportunist ability lets you make an AoO - that's cool and dandy. But you still need to find some way of generating sneak attack conditions.

[Person_Man]

I think we had this thread a few days ago, except without your book restrictions, which seriously curtail your ability to do anything.

Crossbow builds generally suck compared to most other ranged builds because crossbows don't benefit from Str damage or Greater Manyshot. And ranged builds tend to suck compared to other builds in general because the damage scales so poorly. So you're definitely going to be at the shallow end of the power spectrum, which is fine, as long as the rest of your party is at the shallow end as well.


Here's my best shot at a good Crossbow build with your restrictions though:

Use the full TWF feat tree with two Light Repeating Crossbows. As you run out of bolts, drop them and use Quickdraw to pull out more Repeating Crossbows. This will give you 6 attacks per round once you hit +11 BAB. And if you're forced into close combat, you can just Quickdraw two melee weapons and hack away without any hindrance.

Go Rogue 10 for the Crippling Stike Ability, giving you 2 points of Str damage every time you deal Sneak Attack damage. Given how low your damage output it, this is the only real way you're going to kill anyone serious. Psychic Rogue or Psychic Assassin would be superior because they deal Int damage, but they're not on your list of allowed classes. After that, continue with Rogue to progress your Sneak Attack and pick up other Special Abilities, or go pure Fighter for the bonus feats.

Take the Savvy Rogue feat from Complete Scoundrel. Now you can deal Strength damage even to a target that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks. Thus the Rogue's primary weakness is fixed. Savvy Rogue also greatly increases the usefulness of other Rogue Special Abilities, making Rogue 19 playable.

Pick up the Staggering Strike feat (Complete Adventurer). Now anytime you Sneak Attack someone, they are also staggered for one round, limiting them to a single Move or Standard action. Since you're so ineffective at killing people, your real goal should be to hit everyone on the battlefield at least once per round, giving your party a huge action advantage.

Have a friend cast Greater Invisibility on you. If your friend is a jerk, buy a Ring of Blinking and take the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane). Now every attack is a Sneak Attack.

You didn't list PHBII on your allowed books, but you included Crossbow Sniper and Telling Blow on your feat list, from the PHBII. Is PHBII allowed? How about the Magic Item Compendium? Psionics? Ebberon or FR specific material?

Improved Critical, Power Critical, and Telling Blow add around 24.5 damage 20% or less of the time. That averages out to +4.8 damage per attack. Very weak for 3 feats. Similarly, Improved Initiative, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization are all wastes of feats because they add minor static bonuses.

You don't need Rapid Reload using the Quickdraw trick. Or you can just buy the Rapid Reload enchantment (Magic Item Compendium) for your Crossbows and have an Unseen Servant or Third Hand (Magic Item Compendium) to reload your Crossbows while you use TWF.

Also, you need to Threaten in order to make an Attack of Opportunity. Ranged weapons don't threaten. Thus Opportunist won't work with ranged weapons.

[Hurlbut]

Um one little problem there, you need a free hand to pull the lever to reload a bolt.

[Curmudgeon]

Use the full TWF feat tree with two Light Repeating Crossbows. As you run out of bolts, drop them and use Quickdraw to pull out more Repeating Crossbows. This will give you 6 attacks per round once you hit +11 BAB. This doesn't work at all unless you've got at least 3 hands.
Crossbow, Repeating

The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). You need a free hand to pull the reloading lever. This has been asked and answered in the FAQ:
Is it possible to fire a repeating crossbow with one hand like a modern semiautomatic pistol?
...
You reload the crossbow by pulling the lever after each shot, and that takes two hands, also as noted in the weapon description.

[Person_Man]

Um one little problem there, you need a free hand to pull the lever to reload a bolt.

Use your primary hand to fire three shots from your repeating light crossbow, using your off hand to pull back the crossbow. Drop it. Quickdraw another light crossbow into your off hand, using your primary hand to pull back the crossbow. Fire three shots. Repeat. Repeating Light Crossbows are small, light weight, and cheap, so you could theoretically carry several dozen of them strapped to various parts of your body with few issues - although it would look hilarious.

Although I prefer using an Unseen Servant or something similar, as I stated above.

[goat]

You wouldn't get sneak attack on those 240 foot shots though, would you?

No, but it keeps you a long way away from things immune to sneak attacks.

[Curmudgeon]

Use your primary hand to fire three shots from your repeating light crossbow, using your off hand to pull back the crossbow. Drop it. Quickdraw another light crossbow into your off hand, using your primary hand to pull back the crossbow. Fire three shots. Again, completely against the rules:
Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
...
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first. The rules require you to fire the first shot with your off-hand crossbow before you're allowed to take the second shot with your primary hand.

Now, you could use alternating, pre-loaded crossbows in each hand with Quick Draw, but never for more than one shot each. That's going to be a lot of crossbows piled up on the ground at your feat. And I'm not sure how you'd carry them around in the first place.

You can't use D&D crossbows like modern semi-automatic weapons.

[Person_Man]

Again, completely against the rules: The rules require you to fire the first shot with your off-hand crossbow before you're allowed to take the second shot with your primary hand.

Now, you could use alternating, pre-loaded crossbows in each hand with Quick Draw, but never for more than one shot each. That's going to be a lot of crossbows piled up on the ground at your feat. And I'm not sure how you'd carry them around in the first place.

You can't use D&D crossbows like modern semi-automatic weapons.

Bag of Holding filled with nothing but unloaded light crossbows? It's only a Move Action to withdraw a "specific" item. If you're drawing the same exact item over and over again with Quickdraw, its a free action.

I really don't see why you couldn't use Crossbows like semi-automatic weapons. You can already pull it off with Shuriken or other thrown weapons. Why not allow some method for crossbows? If you don't like the Unseen Servant solution, there's always Girillion's Blessing, Third Hand, or Thri-Kreen. Or you could just homebrew a magic item.

[Curmudgeon]

Bag of Holding filled with nothing but unloaded light crossbows? It's only a Move Action to withdraw a "specific" item. If you're drawing the same exact item over and over again with Quickdraw, its a free action. That's not in the rules, either; a free action isn't among the action types specified in the item description.
Bag of Holding

Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.
Manipulate an Item

In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Retrieving a stored item normally provokes an Attack of Opportunity, and a Bag of Holding doesn't provide an exception to this rule.

Now, a Heward's Handy Haversack might be an option, because it does provide an exception to the AoO on retrieval rule; it's got the same manipulation characteristics as a weapon scabbard. I can see convincing a DM to let your scheme work with a HHH and Quick Draw.

[Benejeseret]

Not sure I'm a fan of the two hands each with repeater with unseen servants. Nor the quick draw to draw two weapons in one combat round and using one after the other...

Also, you mention crippling striking someone to death, presumably through straight str reduction? I had thought the str reductions would not stack as it is all the same source.

I like the staggering strike feat though and will have to ponder it.

The opportunist ability would generate AOO as the build also has ranged threat.

Telling blow adds another way to get sneak attacks, which in turn could increase crippling strike and staggering strike usage. Ranged pin is the same, as grappled opponents loose dex AC. Combine AOO with ranged pin and it may stop something in its advance.

I like the feel of crossbows, but next will try a bow build and see what it can do.

[Jasdoif]

Also, you mention crippling striking someone to death, presumably through straight str reduction? I had thought the str reductions would not stack as it is all the same source.Crippling Strike doesn't cause a Strength penalty, it causes Strength damage. Ability damage stacks, as easily as hit point damage does.

[Darrin]

Now, a Heward's Handy Haversack might be an option, because it does provide an exception to the AoO on retrieval rule; it's got the same manipulation characteristics as a weapon scabbard. I can see convincing a DM to let your scheme work with a HHH and Quick Draw.

Quiver of Ehlonna might work, too, depending on how you interpret how a light crossbow (4 lbs) compares in size/shape to a javelin (2 lbs) or longbow (3 lbs).

Unseen Servant might also be able to reload a crossbow... possibly even while you're still holding it. Assuming an Unseen Servant can take two move actions a round, it could reload a light crossbow twice a round. It would probably require an awful lot of judgement calls, though (Can a US reload a crossbow you're still holding? Can a US draw ammo as a free action from another person's quiver/pack? Is taking a loaded crossbow from a US the same as drawing a weapon from your own equipment? etc.)

[Person_Man]

Not sure I'm a fan of the two hands each with repeater with unseen servants. Nor the quick draw to draw two weapons in one combat round and using one after the other...

Then use the Third Hand from the Magic Item Compendium. Or be a Thri-Kreen and use Multi-Weapon Fighting with three light crossbows and one free hand to load them.




Also, you mention crippling striking someone to death, presumably through straight str reduction? I had thought the str reductions would not stack as it is all the same source.

Ability damage stacks.




I like the staggering strike feat though and will have to ponder it.

This is really one of the first feats any character with Sneak Attack should pick up. Trust me, it rocks.


The opportunist ability would generate AOO as the build also has ranged threat.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that. I am not currently aware of any way that any ranged weapon can threaten, except for the Arrowmind spell, which lets you threaten 5 feet like a normal melee weapon. Can you please tell me how you gain the ability to threaten with a ranged weapon?


Telling blow adds another way to get sneak attacks, which in turn could increase crippling strike and staggering strike usage. Ranged pin is the same, as grappled opponents loose dex AC. Combine AOO with ranged pin and it may stop something in its advance.

Check out the other Crossbow thread for my math on this. Telling Blow is a waste. Also, there's no reason you shouldn't successfully Sneak Attack every turn via Greater Invisibility or a Ring of Blinking, so it really won't add any additional Crippling Strike damage, and there's no reason to risk the failure of Ranged Pin.

[Jasdoif]

Check out the other Crossbow thread for my math on this. Telling Blow is a waste.Since I'm quite book-deprived these days, what all feats would you suggest instead, before Telling Blow becomes a choice for lack of a better option?

Telling Blow's advantage over Greater Invisibility, albeit a very slim one, is that it isn't subject to the usual requirements on sneak attack, so you can get sneak attack past the usual 30' range limit.

[Benejeseret]

Hehe...oops

You caught me using a source I listed as a no....good call.

Ranged Threat
[General, Fighter]
(DR350 p90)

Either way, the Jasdoif nailed one point about Telling blow I forgot to mention - range.

I know the majority of fights a DM will never introduce a monster that far away but if you work the DM on this, outdoor fights (or if you are on a flying mount or flying yourself) bocome a fun time. Light xbow = 80'+20' ranged weapon mastery = 100' base increment of staggering, crippling critical strikes with ranged pin thrown in...

If in an outdoor setting Far Shot may...maaay, finally be a slight advantage in this case. Though as posted elsewhere I am unsure of the math 80'*1.5+20'
or (80'+20')*1.5

[daggaz]

Heh, one of my players came up with a min-maxed halfing rogue very similiar to the OP's. I laughed out loud with that six strength.... hes a small character, your max load before it starts impairing your abilities is like, 15lbs?

Your feats and other build characteristics aside, this is a very poor build from the get go, unless you are starting at high level and have immediate access to a bag of holding or similiar item.. Even then, your normal equipment is going to weigh you down tremendously...

A wizard can get around it somewhat, but a rogue is going to be really sorry.

As a DM, I would pay extra special attention to encumbrance rules for any character with such a weak strength.

[Person_Man]

Since I'm quite book-deprived these days, what all feats would you suggest instead, before Telling Blow becomes a choice for lack of a better option?

Telling Blow's advantage over Greater Invisibility, albeit a very slim one, is that it isn't subject to the usual requirements on sneak attack, so you can get sneak attack past the usual 30' range limit.

Well I would suggest that you not use a Crossbow build, because its mechanically weaker then a melee, bow, or a thrown weapon build. But if you're wedded to it for fluff reasons, go with TWF tree, Hamstring (Complete Warrior), Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel), Crossbow Sniper (PHBII - sadly, requires Weapon Focus beforehand), and maybe Dive for Cover (Comp Adventurer - reroll any Reflex Save).

[Benejeseret]

Indeed Daggaz, and I have no mindset to actually play the listed character for that very reason. I was hoping that by maxing a crossbow build it could measure up to a comparable bow build. Sadly, this is not the case.

Simply, the xbow can be used much like a bow but requires multiple feats to even become 'equal' to a bow. Person_man's dual weilding postal killer is really the only option I can agree with for outdoing a bow in one aspect.

What should really be added to crossbow is the ability to overcome some armor/DR as that was their main draw (along with being an easily trained point and shoot weapon).

[Jasdoif]

What should really be added to crossbow is the ability to overcome some armor/DR as that was their main draw (along with being an easily trained point and shoot weapon).I'm guessing this isn't quite what you mean, but brilliant energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) bolts of the appropriate material can do a lot of that for you.

[Thurbane]

Don't forget the right tool for the job...

The Great Crossbow (Races of Stone) is an exotic weapon that deals 2d8 damage and has a crit range of 18-20/x2. The reload is a full-round action, however.

There's also the Gnome Crossbow Sight (Arms & Equipment Guide) that allows the user to treat targets as if they were two range invrements closer.

(oops, just read the requirements in the frst post...)