resistance to force effects

[King of Nowhere]

A while ago, for plot-related reasons, I gave a player a couple artifacts that create force effects in the form of hands slapping people or boots kicking people, dealing damage as a free action. I thought it wouldn't be a big deal because everyone is dealing much more damage anyway in their turn. However, the extra damage was somewhat more effective than I assumed, because 1) it's free, 2) it's almost impossible to stop.
So I'm looking for ways to reduce it without retconning the artifacts. But I don't want straight-out immunity. That would be lame, "you have those powerful artifacts but everyone you'll meet will be immune" sucks. Something to reduce damage would be great.

So far stoneskin is the only thing working, but only wizards have it - possibly really high level clerics using miracle. ghost touch armor also helps, but due to its cost and the limited circumstances of use (i banned brilliant energy weapons because completely bypassing stuff is lame, and a mess for balancing), it is rare.

Any other option to reduce damage from force-based physical damage without completely negating it? bonus points if it does not really affect other types of damage, so the rogue and the druid's summoned creatures can keep doing their jobs.

[Goaty14]

Just a *couple* of artifacts. It's not that much (yes it is)

Stoneskin does not block a force effect, since force auto-pierces DR. Honestly, I'd just change it to bludgeoning damage which allows DR to apply, and then give enemies DR whenever you feel like toning it down. Otherwise you might have it replicate magic missile, which has its own counters.

As for negating force damage, a Force Dragon (ELH) is flatly immune, but not much else really does the job.

[Menzath]

Just a *couple* of artifacts. It's not that much (yes it is)

Stoneskin does not block a force effect, since force auto-pierces DR. Honestly, I'd just change it to bludgeoning damage which allows DR to apply, and then give enemies DR whenever you feel like toning it down. Otherwise you might have it replicate magic missile, which has its own counters.

As for negating force damage, a Force Dragon (ELH) is flatly immune, but not much else really does the job.

This.

Force effects fall under "special" damage for whatever that's worth(there was a massive discussion on Hanks energy bow for this)
And because of that getting immunity/resistance is beyond narrowly limited.
The above mentioned force dragon, and the PrC Arget savant are just about the only ways(I thought there was one more, but nothing comes to mind).

What might help is ruling the effects of the artifacts to be similar to a relavent bigby's spell like most other magic items. This opens up more counter for enemies, without completely shutting down the items.

[King of Nowhere]

Just a *couple* of artifacts. It's not that much (yes it is)

I am running a high power campaign. Loot is plentiful. Common items can become artifacts if they become associated with legendary acts, so for high level adventurers having an artifact is not all that uncommon; heck, many of them generated their own artifacts through their own legendary actions.
The problem arose because the first artifact was associated with a legendary hero that was part of a legendary trio, and the player persuaded me that there should be artifacts linked with the other two heroes, and went on to look for them. And since they made great plot hooks, I rolled with it.
Also, I was a more inexperienced DM at the time.


Stoneskin does not block a force effect, since force auto-pierces DR. Honestly, I'd just change it to bludgeoning damage which allows DR to apply, and then give enemies DR whenever you feel like toning it down. Otherwise you might have it replicate magic missile, which has its own counters.

As for negating force damage, a Force Dragon (ELH) is flatly immune, but not much else really does the job.

I've never accurately statted them, but i treat the damage as bludgeoning. A force effect causing a bludgeoning damage, so a resistance is less difficult to find. and they ignore armor, but ghost armor works, so they have something of ghost attack. Yes, that's also something I left unclear.

[Nifft]

You could also make SR apply (as it would to most [Force] spells), and give the artifacts a fixed, low-ish caster level.

Then it would make sense that they were very effective against low-ish level opponents, but their utility will steeply decline as the PCs start facing higher-level, higher-SR challenges.

[Bronk]

There are a few extra ideas in this old thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?436991-Force-Resistance

[Goaty14]

I've never accurately statted them, but i treat the damage as bludgeoning. A force effect causing a bludgeoning damage, so a resistance is less difficult to find. and they ignore armor, but ghost armor works, so they have something of ghost attack. Yes, that's also something I left unclear.

It cannot be both. The damage is either force (a magical energy type) or bludgeoning (a weapon type). Officially, ignoring armor means that it's an incorporeal touch attack (IIRC, because that's what ghosts do).

[ericgrau]

Free actions are a major bugger. You could retcon it as swift actions. It won't do much at first, but as time goes on and other items and spells get accumulated it will matter as the other items and spells compete for the swift action.

Having every foe resistant to 3 rare items is kind of weird too. AC maybe? Do these force items make any kind of attack roll? If it's really just automatic auto hit force damage then that is kind of preventing counters. I can't think of anything pre-epic for that.

As the players level and CR goes up HP goes up quite a bit too, so that may help the problem fix itself. HP increase is quadratic rather than linear. Likewise simply throwing tougher foes at the party to making up for their added power will bring in a lot more HP. The party may die faster to the tougher foes risking rocket tag, so don't forget to provide defensive items in your over-generous treasure piles.

[King of Nowhere]

Having every foe resistant to 3 rare items is kind of weird too. AC maybe? Do these force items make any kind of attack roll? If it's really just automatic auto hit force damage then that is kind of preventing counters. I can't think of anything pre-epic for that.

Ok, I officially call it a ghost touch attack dealing magic bludgeoning damage, as I've basically treated it as such. Normally I don't even ask for a hit roll because hitting is practically certain, but with a good touch AC it won't be. only a few foes have it, though.



As the players level and CR goes up HP goes up quite a bit too, so that may help the problem fix itself. HP increase is quadratic rather than linear. Likewise simply throwing tougher foes at the party to making up for their added power will bring in a lot more HP. The party may die faster to the tougher foes risking rocket tag, so don't forget to provide defensive items in your over-generous treasure piles.

I was actually counting on that; there are two items dealing around 25 damage per round each, and can't be used on the same target. I figured dealing 25 damage per round on two targets, at level above 10, wouldn't be a big deal. The wizard (blaster, she just likes tossing plenty of d6) keep casting empowered fireballs around. the cleric has harm and destruction. The barbarian easily deals 80 damage on a full attack even against opponents with decent AC. I figured those 25 damages woulnd't be too bad. Well, they are not completely game-breaking, just mostly so. Heck, reading this forum I got the idea that high level fighting rarely lasts more than a couple round.

Instead, a mix of everyone being hugely loaded with defensive items, some houserules restricting some of the most powerful offensive options, and the general optimization level of the game being more conductive to defence, all those mixed up to make killing people quite more difficult than planned. Both the party and most of their enemies have AC over 40 (at level 14), saving throws +15 or higher, some elemental resistance and straight immunity to some of the worst effects. In those conditions, fights actually last for several rounds, and so the free damage every round matters much more.

Well, I suppose I could just give around more armors with ghost touch. Was looking for some more options.

[ericgrau]

It cannot be both. The damage is either force (a magical energy type) or bludgeoning (a weapon type). Officially, ignoring armor means that it's an incorporeal touch attack (IIRC, because that's what ghosts do).

A force effect can deal bludgeoning damage rather than force damage though, and then DR applies. Most DR applies in fact. Though personally I'd call the attack magic and bludgeoning for DR purposes. That could be a simple solution right there.

[Goaty14]

A force effect can deal bludgeoning damage rather than force damage though, and then DR applies. Most DR applies in fact.

Source? I was under the impression that DR didn't apply to force, which is why it is of such value to archers.

[Venger]

It cannot be both. The damage is either force (a magical energy type) or bludgeoning (a weapon type). Officially, ignoring armor means that it's an incorporeal touch attack (IIRC, because that's what ghosts do).

Some spells deal slash/pierce/bludgeon, such as whirling blade or splinterbolt. They will normally specify that they do not bypass damage reduction.

Things can ignore armor without being an incorporeal touch attack, like hank's energy bow.


Source? I was under the impression that DR didn't apply to force, which is why it is of such value to archers.

DR doesn't apply to force. It's energy damage.


The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities

[ericgrau]

Source? I was under the impression that DR didn't apply to force, which is why it is of such value to archers.

DR doesn't apply to force damage. It does apply to physical damage, even if that damage comes from a force effect. As for what force is... that is difficult to find a good definition for. More like you have to gather examples from different spells. It seems to be a cross between star trek shields & energies and making objects or creatures out of pure energy... so still Star Trek Holodecky, except that everything looks transparent or semi-transparent instead of realistic. The 2nd description then lets you deal physical damage rather than force damage. Much like beating someone with a hologram bat instead of blasting them with a phaser.

There are several force spells that mimic objects or creatures and merely say that they deal "damage" rather than "force damage". Bigby's crushing hand goes as far as clarifying that the damage is lethal, not nonlethal, as you might expect some grapples to be nonlethal (there are lethal grapples too). Force damage can't be nonlethal... this damage is clearly the same kind of damage that you'd get from grappling. Physical.

[Shalist]

A few of these are worth a mention despite completely negating it or unavoidably affecting other party members:

Forceward (wiz4, SC pg 98) creates a bubble centered on you, within which force effects (walls, missiles, enemy force armor, whatever) are ignored.
Globe of invulnerability (SRD 4th/6th) negates spells and such up to 3rd(4th) level, and isn't necessarily uncommon (i.e. angels and saints having permanent versions).
Lycanthropy (SRD, +2LA/?RHD) gives 5/silver or 10/silver
Unseelie Fey (Drg#304, +0LA) grants up to 15/cold iron at 12+ HD.
Mineral Warrior (Und, +1LA) for 8/adamantine.
Hammerblock armor (Cwar 134, +2) for 5 points of DR vs. bludgeoning.
Earthsilk jersey (RoS 159; 150g) for 1 point of DR vs. bludgeoning.
Friend ring (SRD, 50,000g); basically shield other for 1/2 damage.
Anti-impact armor (Cwar 133; +2,000g) halves damage from falling, constriction, and other 'whole body bludgeoning' type affects (probably not applicable)
Robe of Force Resistance (3rd party Book of Eldritch Might III; 100,000g) negates 20 force damage / round (and lets you pass through walls of force).
Angelwing Razor (BoVD pg 120, major artifact): "Angelwing Razor is a +5 vorpal longsword that ignores damage reduction and hardness of any kind. It can even cut through a wall of force or similar effect." (How cool would it be if someone casually cleaved or AoO'd their green lantern force constructs?)


Don't forget concealment and miss chances (i.e. blur or mirror image); or the +8 to AC from both mage armor and shield.

[Darrin]

DR doesn't apply to force. It's energy damage.

Nope. There's only five energy types in 3.5, and [force] isn't one of them. Force usually bypasses DR because it's usually part of a spell effect, and spell damage usually bypasses DR. When you get [force] damage from a non-spell effect, such as a magic weapon or item, then the item description needs to specify what happens with DR. If the item description doesn't say, then DR should still apply. However, since it's so rare to have a [force] effect that isn't a spell, most people don't notice or just handwave it for convenience.

[Venger]

Nope. There's only five energy types in 3.5, and [force] isn't one of them. Force usually bypasses DR because it's usually part of a spell effect, and spell damage usually bypasses DR. When you get [force] damage from a non-spell effect, such as a magic weapon or item, then the item description needs to specify what happens with DR. If the item description doesn't say, then DR should still apply. However, since it's so rare to have a [force] effect that isn't a spell, most people don't notice or just handwave it for convenience.

So you're saying if someone bound the crystal helm and attacked someone with dr, it would apply normally?

[hamishspence]

The Force property from Magic Item Compendium (for projectile weapons) specifically says that the projectiles, once turned into force, overcome DR. However, it might be extrapolating too far, to use this as evidence that force in general overcomes DR.

[Darrin]

So you're saying if someone bound the crystal helm and attacked someone with dr, it would apply normally?

By RAW, yes. The [force] effect from Crystal Helm helps you hit incorporeal enemies, but the text says nothing about DR.

In practice, very few people notice or care about following RAW in this particular case.


The Force property from Magic Item Compendium (for projectile weapons) specifically says that the projectiles, once turned into force, overcome DR. However, it might be extrapolating too far, to use this as evidence that force in general overcomes DR.

The Magic Item Compendium fails to mention DR in the description for the Gloves of Endless Javelins. That and Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) I think are the only two [force] items in print that don't address DR directly. Oh, and you could probably include Riverine (Stormwrack) in that category, but not mentioning DR is a little low on the list of "things the designers should have probably explained better."

[hamishspence]

Hank's Energy Bow is kind of underpriced. Though it's not clear if "accommodates itself to the user's strength" means "add the user's Strength modifier, whatever it is, to the existing 2d6 damage", or if Strength Bonus (and the +2 of the weapon itself) only applies to regular arrows fired from it:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

The closest thing to a replica of it, would be a +2 Endless Ammunition (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/endless-ammunition) Adaptive (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/adaptive) Force composite longbow (with the Light Generation property 30% of magic weapons get, automatically built in)- effectively a +6 weapon, +1000 bonus for Adaptive.

So basically, 73000 gp, plus the price of a Masterwork Composite Longbow (400 gp)

Even then, it wouldn't have the Power Shot ability, and wouldn't do as much damage (1d8 instead of 2d6).

[hamishspence]

Which would suggest that, yes, the +2 enhancement bonus, and the +2 Strength bonus, both apply.

Making it have two bonuses over the proposed "replica weapon" - more damage, and Power Shot.

Yet it's less than 1/3 the price.

[Bronk]

Oh, and you could probably include Riverine (Stormwrack) in that category, but not mentioning DR is a little low on the list of "things the designers should have probably explained better."

I totally agree... I had been looking into riverine for this DR thread, but Stormwrack only specified it could be used for armor and - I'm away from my book right now, so I'm paraphrasing here - other random objects like walls and containers. No weapon info at all... very disappointing! They really dropped the ball on the whole concept.

[Darrin]

I totally agree... I had been looking into riverine for this DR thread, but Stormwrack only specified it could be used for armor and - I'm away from my book right now, so I'm paraphrasing here - other random objects like walls and containers. No weapon info at all... very disappointing! They really dropped the ball on the whole concept.

"Other items" as per the table include weapons. 2000 GP per pound. Also, light/heavy shields cost +4000 GP, and they count as bludgeoning weapons.