setting up a "no chance" of victory encounter

[Jellyburd]

Hi all, newish DM here
I'm setting up a large encounter where if my PCs attempt to attack head on it could end badly. Obviously I dont want a TPK but I dont want them to get comfortable with smashing their way through everything. Some of the PCs enjoy diplomacy and stealth while others just like fighting. I'm trying to find middle ground.

The current plot: My PCs ended up in the underdark and are attempting to rescue a Myconid Sovreign from the duergar.

What they dont know is that the duergar are attempting to use the myconid as a means to temporarily reanimate their fallen in a siege on a deep gnome settlement that just so happens to be built on what the duergar believe to be a religous site.

My PCs are heading to the duergar but have no idea of there numbers. They will basically come across a large scale war camp preparing their siege.

My question is, how do you help them realize how overwhelmed they'd be attacking head on?
there will be ways to succeed. Stealth/diplomacy/killing the leader, their numbers will be the problem.
How do you handle their retreat if they run? I considered skill checks to out run them.
I've never built a "no win encounter" and don't want to actually kill them. Just scare them ;)
is this unfair?
any advice is appreciated!

[Unoriginal]

"Seeing the camp, there is at least 1000 druegars busying around, with a few groups of Ogres or other mercenaries"

[Finney]

Action economy is king when it comes to combat in this edition, so it's quite easy to design a scenario that would be overwhelming and should make your PCs wary - simply add more enemies to an encounter.

[Finney]

My question is, how do you help them realize how overwhelmed they'd be attacking head on?

I guess I didn't really answer this part of your question in my first reply. Describing the encounter and/or setup of the enemy camp should do it. If your players are new to this edition, however, they might not recognize that even just a couple extra enemies can change a fight from medium to deadly difficulty.

Maybe have reinforcements show up to an encounter other than the one you have planned, so they will get a good feel for just how dangerous even a few more enemies could be. It should make them much more hesitant to charge in, so to speak, when they scout or see a potential encounter where they would be significantly outnumbered.

[Angelalex242]

I guess I didn't really answer this part of your question in my first reply. Describing the encounter and/or setup of the enemy camp should do it. If your players are new to this edition, however, they might not recognize that even just a couple extra enemies can change a fight from medium to deadly difficulty.

Maybe have reinforcements show up to an encounter other than the one you have planned, so they will get a good feel for just how dangerous even a few more enemies could be. It should make them much more hesitant to charge in, so to speak, when they scout or see a potential encounter where they would be significantly outnumbered.

I'd add, "If the spellcaster start dropping AOEs, even big AOE, don't bother counting how many die." Just, "Your fireball kills dozens. There's hundreds more. You think you'll run out of fireballs before they run out of troops."

[Quoz]

One really interesting element I would consider adding here is a moral conundrum: the Myconid is drugged out of his mind to keep him under control. If he dies, the Duregar lose 90% of their forces when the spores stop functioning. If he can be restored, he gains control of the army. The players don't know what he will do with them, but probably not good for the Duregar. And unless they slip through the siege there is no telling what the gnomes are doing (you can have all kinds of fun with that) Make sure the PCs can't tell what the outcomes will be until they act. No matter what they do it should feel like a high cost for victory.

I like the scenario as you have it laid out because there is no clear good guy/bad guy. There are 3 sides, each of which could claim being wronged and believe they have a moral high ground. It is a balanced enough setup that the player's can tip the scales but if they go it alone they're going down hard. Bravo! I may have to hold onto this for a rainy day.

[Amdy_vill]

metagaming to more the story along and make the players feel like they had a great epic adventure is fine just don't do things like this that often of the players will feel like the game is on rails

[Unoriginal]

One really interesting element I would consider adding here is a moral conundrum: the Myconid is drugged out of his mind to keep him under control. If he dies, the Duregar lose 90% of their forces when the spores stop functioning. If he can be restored, he gains control of the army. The players don't know what he will do with them, but probably not good for the Duregar. And unless they slip through the siege there is no telling what the gnomes are doing (you can have all kinds of fun with that) Make sure the PCs can't tell what the outcomes will be until they act. No matter what they do it should feel like a high cost for victory.

I like the scenario as you have it laid out because there is no clear good guy/bad guy. There are 3 sides, each of which could claim being wronged and believe they have a moral high ground. It is a balanced enough setup that the player's can tip the scales but if they go it alone they're going down hard. Bravo! I may have to hold onto this for a rainy day.

I don't see how the invading slavers are not clearly the bad guys.

[Jellyburd]

One really interesting element I would consider adding here is a moral conundrum: the Myconid is drugged out of his mind to keep him under control. If he dies, the Duregar lose 90% of their forces when the spores stop functioning. If he can be restored, he gains control of the army

That is an awesome twist. They save it but its so delirious it doesnt know who the enemy is, but now controls an army. On the other hand if they kill what they consider an innocent party it effectively cripples the duergar and potentially ends the battle. Moral dilemmas!


I like the scenario as you have it laid out because there is no clear good guy/bad guy. There are 3 sides, each of which could claim being wronged and believe they have a moral high ground. It is a balanced enough setup that the player's can tip the scales but if they go it alone they're going down hard. Bravo! I may have to hold onto this for a rainy day.

Thanks and please do! You pretty much nailed what I was going for, now hopefully my PCs pick up on it..

[Malifice]

Tell the players

'There are too many to fight; you realise that if discovered, fighting would lead to your death'

[strangebloke]

Do your job.

Narrate.

"The light of thousands of torches flickers in the darkness, stretching out as far as you can see. You can make out a few of the Druegar nearby, armed in chainmail and carrying crossbows and axes. They've posted pickets around the camp, and although these scouts haven't seen you yet, each one carries a small trumpet with which they could summon the whole warcamp if necessary."

"I'm going to try and sneak into the camp."

"In your estimation, with such a high number of Druegar around, this would be a nearly impossible task." (Convey that this is a DC:25 type task.)

[CantigThimble]

How high level are the characters? Have they done large scale combats before, do they have strategies ready for it? I've seen 8th-9th level characters smash through a hundred or more enemies before. But generally just sheer quantity of enemies they see at once should be enough to cow them. The question is, how many does that need to be?

[Laserlight]

My question is, how do you help them realize how overwhelmed they'd be attacking head on?

I'd tell them outright "Each of you sees that there are far more of them than you can possibly handle in a straight up fight." Then if they say "Okay, we charge!" I'd reiterate "You did hear the part about there being too many of them for you to possibly beat, right? If you want to go ahead with this, then do you want to play out the fight, or should I just narrate it and you can get on with rolling up new characters?"

[Jellyburd]

How high level are the characters? Have they done large scale combats before, do they have strategies ready for it? I've seen 8th-9th level characters smash through a hundred or more enemies before. But generally just sheer quantity of enemies they see at once should be enough to cow them. The question is, how many does that need to be?

They are currently 4 players at level six and some have seen large scale combat in another campaign. (We recently got served by an ancient dragon and several cultists and had to flee in a different group with some of the same players)

I'm probably being paranoid cuz I'm still pretty new to DMing, but the more tips the better I suppose.

[Sigreid]

Well, when my level 5 party encountered a lich clearly building a devil army they snuck away muttering "later".