HELP! Best THIEF build optimization?

[WhiteBread]

Me and my group switched from 3.5 to Pathfinder now.
I always wanted to play a very specific build which I have in mind but don't know if it is possible.

I basically want to play a disabler focusing his skill on theft, legendermain, sleight of hand etc and nasty enchantment spells.
Sneak attack or other dmg types are secondary.

My main strategy is to rid my enemies of their weapons, items and if possible of their armor. And than use some mindf**kery
to escape.

So far I think a bard multiclassing into arcane trickster is the best in that direction. The build would contain:

- Ranged Legendermain(how far can this be optimized), Sleight of Hand, Disarm (with a whip)
- Spells like: Shamefully overdressed, Fool's Gold, Retrieve Item or Create Treasure Map to steal whatever they hid away.
- Enchantments spells like Matchmaker to let two guards fall in love and make an escape easy as well as funny.
- Dirty Tricks to pull their pants down. Kick them down to make them prone and steal their pants.


Another idea was to take 1 lvl dip of summoner(synthesist) and give myself +8 several times with the skilled evolution.

All pathfinder books are allowed. A full build, suggestions and race ideas would be awesome.

[Eldonauran]

If you want spells and don't want to worry about multiclassing/prestige classing, simply go with the Eldritch Scoundrel (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Eldritch%2 0Scoundrel) archetype.

If spells aren't a big deal, and you want to use hexes like a witch (but still stay a Rogue), the Sylvan Trickster (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Sylvan%20T rickster) is a very nice fit for debuffing.

If you want to shenanigan the skill focus evolutions, you can always get yourself a Figment (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Familiar%20Figment ) familiar and use the 'share evolution' evolution to transfer the ability to yourself.

If you want to maximize the benefit of being a rogue, and the favored class ability to get more rogue talents, I'd suggest Human. Bonus feat and +1/6 a rogue talent every level (so a new rogue talent every 6th level). Vanara, Changlings, and Gillman get the same options (Half-elves and Half-orcs can select this too), but a Human starts out with one more feat.

[Hrugner]

If you want ranged legerdemain, you're better off taking a level of kineticist and taking the telekinetic finesse utility wild talent. There's no negatives for working at range, and no limits on the type of fine manipulations. Mesmerist should provide the rest of the abilities you're looking for. Umbral mesmerist would also give you a nice invisibility perk and some monster summoning.

[WhiteBread]

If you want spells and don't want to worry about multiclassing/prestige classing, simply go with the Eldritch Scoundrel (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Eldritch%2 0Scoundrel) archetype.

That would be awesome with sorcerer/bard casting.



If you want ranged legerdemain, you're better off taking a level of kineticist and taking the telekinetic finesse utility wild talent. There's no negatives for working at range, and no limits on the type of fine manipulations. Mesmerist should provide the rest of the abilities you're looking for. Umbral mesmerist would also give you a nice invisibility perk and some monster summoning.

Does the Telekinetic Finesse improve from class levels or characters levels? What is its range and maximum weight for stealing? Can I improve it by taking sleight of hand feats(like more weight feats)??
Mesmerist sounds good too. Any enchantment spells I would miss from the bard spell list?
Which race would work good with these two classes?

[Castilonium]

Questioner Investigator. (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Investigator%20Que stioner) It gets the bard spell list, is intelligence based so you'll have more skill points, and has inspiration.

[Hrugner]

Does the Telekinetic Finesse improve from class levels or characters levels? What is its range and maximum weight for stealing? Can I improve it by taking sleight of hand feats(like more weight feats)??
Mesmerist sounds good too. Any enchantment spells I would miss from the bard spell list?
Which race would work good with these two classes?

Unfortunately, there aren't clear rules on what limits are placed on telekinetic finesse. Taken as written there are no limits on weight, only on distance; close range(25+5per level). However, it seems that it's intended to modify basic telekinesis; this would give you a weight limit of 5 per 2 levels. If you go up to 3rd level you can take telekinetic haul and get an enormous telekinetic weight limit for basic telekinesis, 100lbs per level. You can also get an ability called telekinetic maneuvers at 7th level, which lets you do bulrush, disarm, grapple, pin, trip, and steal and dirty trick if you have tk finesse. It's pretty dang upgradeable.

No idea how it interacts with feats and abilities that normally interact with sleight of hand. It would come down to the wording of those specific feats, and from there whether or not your DM was on board.

With mesmerist over bard, you'd lose out on haste which is a big deal. Other than that, it has all the spells you mentioned specifically. You can get a mesmerist with haste through the material manipulator archetype, but you lose all the enchantment spells you actually wanted.

It's hard to recommend a clear race winner for kineticist. Human is a safe bet, hobgoblin gets you the stats you want, and Gathlain's favored class bonus is amazing if you take an archetype that doesn't key off of constitution and plan on using metamagic to keep up with the lost boost from burn. If you go overwhelming soul, then Gathlain is the way to go, if you go with a combat mesmerist, then probably half orc. I'd stick to human for anything else though.

[WhiteBread]

Questioner Investigator. (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Investigator%20Que stioner) It gets the bard spell list, is intelligence based so you'll have more skill points, and has inspiration.

But how would I get any sleight of hand/legendermain/theft like abilities this way? I can't multiclass into arcane trickster this way because Investigator have divine spells, no?


-cut-
It's hard to recommend a clear race winner for kineticist-cut-

Are there any races that have nice racial/race traits for thieves? Maybe even improving Sleight of Hand,Ranged Legendermain or other thieving skills a bit further? Stats are rather semi important and I played way too many humans.

[Castilonium]

But how would I get any sleight of hand/legendermain/theft like abilities this way? I can't multiclass into arcane trickster this way because Investigator have divine spells, no?

The link in my post shows that Questioner Investigators cast arcane spells.

[WhiteBread]

The link in my post shows that Questioner Investigators cast arcane spells.

Ah so he gets the bard spell list. Now I get it.


Otherwise can any of the suggested classes also use a ranged disarm combat maneuver? Or should I get a whip for that?

[Norin]

This spell is pretty neat for such builds:

The almighty pilfering hand of doom! (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/pilfering-hand/)

[Hrugner]

Are there any races that have nice racial/race traits for thieves? Maybe even improving Sleight of Hand,Ranged Legendermain or other thieving skills a bit further? Stats are rather semi important and I played way too many humans.

Most races can get something nice for thieves. Halflings have access to "Childlike" a feat that lets them take 10 on bluff checks to convince people of their innocence and a trait that gives them +2 to bluff and sleight of hand. Wayangs can get +2 sleight of hand and a temporary invisibility. A grippli can take agile tongue to use sleight of hand at 10 feet. A daemon tiefling has a +2 to sleight of hand, and if you get a lucky roll on their chart, you could get another +2 or something much better or worse. Ratfolk can get a +2 to bluff, sense motive and sleight of hand checks, and can take a feat for a burrow speed which should help for running off. A Dhampir can take "Natural Charmer" which lets them take 20 on charisma skill checks to "charm, convince, persuade, or seduce humanoids whose attitude is at least friendly", which should help. And the "Nosferatu" dhampir has something that gives them +1 caster level to spells and spell like abilities that move things through sheer will. Gnomes get casual illusionist feat.

I think that's about it.

[WhiteBread]

-cut A Dhampir can take "Natural Charmer" which lets them take 20 on charisma skill checks to "charm, convince, persuade, or seduce humanoids whose attitude is at least friendly", which should help. -cut

Woah, how does this work? And how much time does it take? It sounds awesome namewise "Natural Charmer" but knowing the take 20 rules I would think it is more nagging like? xD


This spell is pretty neat for such builds:

The almighty pilfering hand of doom! (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/pilfering-hand/)

Yep, this is pretty much a must have on my class.



Currently I think the best build would be around summoner(synthesist 1)/ telekinist 1/ mesmerist 18. Race Dhampir for the "natural charmer".

Can the mesmerist be played as a prepared caster?
Are there any good prestige classes for thieves? Except arcane trickster.

[Hrugner]

Woah, how does this work? And how much time does it take? It sounds awesome namewise "Natural Charmer" but knowing the take 20 rules I would think it is more nagging like? xD

Currently I think the best build would be around summoner(synthesist 1)/ telekinist 1/ mesmerist 18. Race Dhampir for the "natural charmer".

Can the mesmerist be played as a prepared caster?
Are there any good prestige classes for thieves? Except arcane trickster.

Natural charmer taking 20 minutes without skill unlocks probably means you're taking the person out for drinks or something. But skill unlock diplomacy will get that down to 20 turns at a -10, it's still a long time. There's no way that I know of to make the mesmerist a prepared caster.