Untouchable PC's

[Sk8ter274]

I have theory. When the writers of the starter set for 5th edition, The Lost mines of Phandelver, wrote and play tested the module, they couldn't have foreseen the problems it might run into if run using Xanathar subclasses. Then again, I guess it's highly unlikely that that WOTC have all of books with subclasses already written and are slowly releasing them one at a time. TLDR, I'm currently running the starter set module to get my feet wet as a DM, and to lvl thier PC's for my homebrew campaign, but they seem to be ripping everything a new ******* without much effort. It's mostly due to the fact that two of four have insanely high AC and none of the mobs can seem to hit them outside of a Nat 20. I'm not kidding, I rolled a 23 on an attack roll and I still missed. My question, as a new DM, should I continue running the module as is or up the difficulty a bit using other mobs from the monster manual? According to encounter calculators like https://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder they are too powerful for most of the module and that's not taking into account stuff like +1 weapons and armor I'm supposed to dish out now and again. They all claim the ecounter would be easy. I'm not wanting this to be curse of strahd, but we all agree that easy is fun for all of five minutes before you want some sort of a challenge. I mean, why bother talking your way through an encounter, like the module offers, if you can essentially kill the big baddie at the end of dungeon with a backslap? Here's a list of the party I'm DMing for.

Ungarth Frostbeard - Mountain Dwarf Cleric - Forge Domain - Plate + Shield + Forge Blessing = 21AC (Can be up to 24 with Shield of faith spell)

Darrak Gorunn - Mountain Dwarf Paladin - Oath of Redemption - Splint + Shield = 20AC (Can be 22 with Shield of Faith spell)

Tide of Winter "Ty" - Tabaxi Warlock - Hexblade - Shield + DEX = 13 AC*

Ohne-Stamm Vereist - White Dragonborn Sorcerer - Divine Sorcerer - 11 AC*

*Not an issue since these guys rely on distance to make up for low AC and stay just close enough for the tanks of the party to keep them safe.

[CTurbo]

Do they have magic armor? I NEVER give out magic armor.

The best way to get to your two tanks is with spells that require Dex saves.

[Naanomi]

Anyone who could somehow afford plate armor is probably not interested in the mediocre rewards from the Lost Mines...

[Foxhound438]

Anyone who could somehow afford plate armor is probably not interested in the mediocre rewards from the Lost Mines...

^this. you're running a module that's designed for levels 1-4, there should definitely be no plate, and even splint stretches my belief if they're in the earlier parts of it.

[Rebonack]

If you're following the general guidelines on loots, a PC shouldn't have access to Full Plate armor until somewhere between levels 5 and 6.

Typically someone with heavy armor will be kicking it off with chainmail.

Also: If your PCs have monstrous armor class, toss in a few monsters that target saves to keep things interesting.

[Davrix]

at most say one of the classes with natural AC + a shield you might see something around the 17 to 18 range. If they have the shield spell then yea that can be bumped up. I am not sure how they are getting 23 ac outside of the shield spell so either you have given out magical armor way to earlier or given access to full plate to soon.

Simple solution start having casters with Dex saves or wisdom saves. Not much the AC can do against those.

[PeteNutButter]

Use more enemies. Find ways to give them advantage such as shoving the team prone.

High AC is very effective at low level, but usually becomes less helpful without loads of magic items to keep it going.

Just start gradually increasing the amount of foes, but don’t overdue it. You’ll find the earlier mods are rather poorly balanced anyways, so adjustments are required. I’ve never once ran a mod as written. I feel like they are balanced for an “average” party and not optimizers.

[Unoriginal]

As others have said, it has nothing to do with the Xanathar's subclasses.

Your two Dwarves somehow managed to *both* have plate armors, when one plate armor cost 1500 gp. Many magic items are cheaper.

Furthermore, the squishy ranged combatants should still be targeted, especially by ranged attacks

[Sk8ter274]

To answer most of the questions, technically only one of them has magic plate armor, the cleric, Unfortunately, he is able to give himself magic armor through his channel divinity. As for how he got plate armor. Using another one of his abilities, he took all of starting dungeons scrap metal, goblin and bugbear crappy weapons, and basically started the arm piece. Once they got to town, he rolled a nat 20 to convince the smithy to give him all of his broken swords and armor, scrap metal, and spent the next two days straight, gaining exhaustions along the way to forge the rest of it in the smithy.I thought it was a good enough trade for him have plate armor since it forced him to actually entered the dungeon with 2 levels of exhaustion, but he took all of 4 hits while hitting twice himself and let the rest of the party handle doing the actual damage to bring down foes. As for the paladin, he essentially borrowed some cash from the rest of the party and upgraded to splint. As far as the paladin's concerned it's not much of an issue, they're kinda supposed to have pretty good AC early on, well from my experience anyway, and he went with oath of redemption so the party essentially has two tanks.

As for solutions, I'll take the advice and not run the module as is. I'm gonna throw some casters in who happen to have a fireball/lightning scroll and upgrade the baddies one level. (IE Goblins become hobgoblins, hobgoblins become bugbears, bugbears become bear totem barabarians, etc). I'm also gonna have to target the casters a bit more and sprinkle in a few traps for flavor.

[Specter]

The module is not king, you are. If things are too easy, make them harder. Either increase monsters' HP, AC, attack modifiers or all of those.

[Unoriginal]

To answer most of the questions, technically only one of them has magic plate armor, the cleric, Unfortunately, he is able to give himself magic armor through his channel divinity. As for how he got plate armor. Using another one of his abilities, he took all of starting dungeons scrap metal, goblin and bugbear crappy weapons, and basically started the arm piece. Once they got to town, he rolled a nat 20 to convince the smithy to give him all of his broken swords and armor, scrap metal, and spent the next two days straight, gaining exhaustions along the way to forge the rest of it in the smithy.I thought it was a good enough trade for him have plate armor since it forced him to actually entered the dungeon with 2 levels of exhaustion, but he took all of 4 hits while hitting twice himself and let the rest of the party handle doing the actual damage to bring down foes.

A nat 20 is not enough to convince someone to just give you hundreds of gps in scrap metal in exchange of nothing, even if you're Asmodeus, and a plate armor takes 300 days to make alone.




As for the paladin, he essentially borrowed some cash from the rest of the party and upgraded to splint. As far as the paladin's concerned it's not much of an issue, they're kinda supposed to have pretty good AC early on, well from my experience anyway, and he went with oath of redemption so the party essentially has two tanks.

Splint Armor is AC 17, 19 with a shield.

[Sigreid]

A nat 20 is not enough to convince someone to just give you hundreds of gps in scrap metal in exchange of nothing, even if you're Asmodeus, and a plate armor takes 300 days to make alone.




Splint Armor is AC 17, 19 with a shield.

And there's not really any such thing as scrap metal to a smith. There's metal you're going to melt down and use again.

[Armored Walrus]

As for solutions, I'll take the advice and not run the module as is.

You're already not running it as written, by assuming there's a smith with that much scrap laying around for free. But yeah, just up the threat range of the encounters a notch or two. If the module has a "medium" make it "hard" or even "deadly."

Or, make goblins smart enough to stop shooting at the tank after their first three arrows do nothing, and target the squishy spell casters instead.

Or, any enemy with the Sacred Flame cantrip will ruin those tanks' day.

Edit: or heat metal if you feel like trolling them...

[sophontteks]

Wow, crafted plate metel in a couple days with scrap. That's one amazing smith. and do to it for free? Absolutely insane. A '20' is nowhere near enough. That wouldn't even pass a 35 persuasion check. These NPCs depend on their services for a living. They don't just do 1500gp worth of work for free, not even for the best smiles.

What i'd do is walk it back entirely. The armor falls apart in the middle of a fight. Its made of scrap metal afterall. It'd make for some interesting social encounters with that smith, who turns out to be a bit too confident in his abilities.

[Pex]

Wow, crafted plate metel in a couple days with scrap. That's one amazing smith. and do to it for free? Absolutely insane. A '20' is nowhere near enough. That wouldn't even pass a 35 persuasion check. These NPCs depend on their services for a living. They don't just do 1500gp worth of work for free, not even for the best smiles.

What i'd do is walk it back entirely. The armor falls apart in the middle of a fight. Its made of scrap metal afterall. It'd make for some interesting social encounters with that smith, who turns out to be a bit too confident in his abilities.

Not during a fight to make the character vulnerable. It wasn't the player's fault, so he shouldn't be punished. Also, a player is likely to think the monster did it, the DM is cheating, and/or why can't he do it to bad guys wearing armor.

[Sigreid]

Wow, crafted plate metel in a couple days with scrap. That's one amazing smith. and do to it for free? Absolutely insane. A '20' is nowhere near enough. That wouldn't even pass a 35 persuasion check. These NPCs depend on their services for a living. They don't just do 1500gp worth of work for free, not even for the best smiles.

What i'd do is walk it back entirely. The armor falls apart in the middle of a fight. Its made of scrap metal afterall. It'd make for some interesting social encounters with that smith, who turns out to be a bit too confident in his abilities.

Again, no such thing as scrap metal. Just metal that needs a bit more processing. Still easier that starting from ore in the ground.

[Spiderguy24]

Not during a fight to make the character vulnerable. It wasn't the player's fault, so he shouldn't be punished. Also, a player is likely to think the monster did it, the DM is cheating, and/or why can't he do it to bad guys wearing armor.

I thought the player himself made the plate armor? He just convinced the smithy to give him all of his scrap metal that he had?

Still, even with a nat 20 roll, making a full set of plate armor in two days, even without sleep, is insane! At his level, not even the touch of the gods would help with that set. If anything, he should have been able to make just a set of chain mail in that time frame, splint if you want to stretch it.

[Armored Walrus]

The problem the OP asks about isn't due to the Forge domain, as he states, but due to a very generous interpretation of what can be done with the Forge domain features. It's a Channel Divinity ability, so, what, once per day at level 2? Each use allows the character to craft "an item" worth no more than 100gold, and at least that much value of metal has to be laid out in order to accomplish it.

At best, it should have taken 15 days to craft plate mail, and that's using the generous interpretation of "an item" being a 100 gold-worth fraction of a suit of plate armor. During that time, there's lots of other stuff going on in Phandalin. Even giving them two days unmolested while the character forged, and the rest of the party apparently just sat around waiting, was generous, IMO.

That being said, I wouldn't take it away if this were my game. Or if I did, I wouldn't do it via the story. I'd just talk to the player and say "hey, i screwed up giving you that plate mail. As you can see, it's removed the challenge from this adventure. I'd like to either have you erase it, or understand that I'll be targeting you less in order to compensate for it."

The other alternative is not to take it away, and adjust the module accordingly, which is what OP is looking for, and got lots of suggestions for how to do it.

[sophontteks]

That player can make 1500 gold worth of armor every two days. He can retire :smallcool:

[Unoriginal]

At worse, the Fabricate spell could have been used...

[Naanomi]

At worse, the Fabricate spell could have been used...
PCs with access to Fabricate are also unlikely to be interested in the Lost Mines as written

[SirGraystone]

The only counter to high AC is magic, heat metal work well against armored foes, but any spell asking for a Dex save is good.

[Samayu]

while hitting twice himself and let the rest of the party handle doing the actual damage to bring down foes.

"Hey, Grog, why are we wasting our time on this tin can while those other guys are killing us?! You go after the cat, I'll get the dragon guy!"

Always go after the high damage/low AC targets first, if you can.

[Tikkun]

Two words: Heat Metal.

'nuff said.

[Raphite1]

Yeah plate is INSANE to have at that level; that's an end-game reward. Typically my players won't have resources to purchase plate until they're approaching level 15. And as other have said, it takes the better part of a year for a character to craft it themselves, even if they have the materials.

It's going to be hard to deal with the consequences now, but you can do it by carefully tailoring the encounters to counter the characters' strengths. It's going to feel a bit unfair to your players when every enemy ends up "coincidentally" being great at countering high AC, though.

You might want to consider just playing these characters through Lost Mines only, and having the players create new ones to start your homebrew campaign, and following the loot rules more closely for the new characters.

[Mellack]

The problem isn't with the subclasses, it is with a misinterpretation of the forge cleric feature. Lets look at the key part of that feature:
Channel Divinity: Artisan’s Blessing
The object can be worth no more than 100 gp, and as part of this ritual you must expend metals, such as coins or other finished items, with a value equal to the item you want to make.

They can make a 100 gp item if they have the supplies. Those should still cost 100 gp. It is not 100 gp of part of an item. Plate Armor is a single thing in this edition. It should have just been out of their ability completely.
So you were already very generous by allowing the PC to make it using that ability. They should have also still needed 1500 gp of finished materials. No persuasion check, even a nat 20, should let someone give a PC 1500 gp worth of stuff. I would suggest that you may want to discuss it with the player, point out you made a mistake that is damaging the game, and fix it.

[Pex]

I thought the player himself made the plate armor? He just convinced the smithy to give him all of his scrap metal that he had?

Still, even with a nat 20 roll, making a full set of plate armor in two days, even without sleep, is insane! At his level, not even the touch of the gods would help with that set. If anything, he should have been able to make just a set of chain mail in that time frame, splint if you want to stretch it.

Of course. The DM made a mistake. The player should not be punished for it as suggested to have the armor fall apart during a fight. Worst case ret-con the whole thing before the game session. The PC gets his wealth back and his armor is replaced by something more reasonable to exist for the level. The DM can make it up to him later. Perhaps in some future event the player wants to do something he has no clue is a stupid thing to do. The DM corrects him explaining in full detail why he shouldn't do it.

[sophontteks]

The PC didn't pay anything for the armor, there is no wealth to receive. Full plate, 3 days, 0 cost. I almost feel like the player was taking advantage of the DM's inexperience intentionally. I know I'm probably just paranoid, but I feel that something else had to be going on to convince the DM that they get whatever they want when they roll a 20, including 1500 worth of materials.

[Sk8ter274]

The PC didn't pay anything for the armor, there is no wealth to receive. Full plate, 3 days, 0 cost. I almost feel like the player was taking advantage of the DM's inexperience intentionally. I know I'm probably just paranoid, but I feel that something else had to be going on to convince the DM that they get whatever they want when they roll a 20, including 1500 worth of materials.

I actually had the same thought, but I think it was more of a test to see whether I'd call him on it or, once I saw the mistake, see if I could adapt my way around it. The player who did it is our normal DM and wanted a break and I was the only one who had something prepared after the module

[Atalas]

Use more enemies. Find ways to give them advantage such as shoving the team prone.

High AC is very effective at low level, but usually becomes less helpful without loads of magic items to keep it going.

Just start gradually increasing the amount of foes, but don’t overdue it. You’ll find the earlier mods are rather poorly balanced anyways, so adjustments are required. I’ve never once ran a mod as written. I feel like they are balanced for an “average” party and not optimizers.

Campaign I'm in, Paladin has +1 Plate and a +1 Shield. 24 AC, no other bonuses. We're level 13 and the DM can't even hit them with an adult red dragon. STR isn't even maxed and the dragon stll couldn't knock them into a river of lava. Shield Mastery feat so by succeeded on the breath weapon they STILL took no damage. We have been slowly driving this DM insane with out-of-the-box thinking. Fog Cloud early levels, absurd luck, unhittable paladin, Animate Object with ten Tiny-sized steel bearings (his reaction to that has been my favorite so far), and finally, rolling a THREE on Divine Intervention.

[Tubben]

Our chars have insane stats, and our gm knows how to make our battles pretty hard.
(Not all of them, sometimes he choose the wrong strategy and we wipe his force pretty fast...)

So, let them have the platemail. You made a mistake, who cares. Make the enemies harder. Simple as that. You allready said you up them a lv, if thats not enough create hobgoblin barbarians or paladins and let them fight clever.

Our GM makes our fights hard, and if we survive the fight, without slots left and our melees at <30 hp no one ask how the **** that zombies on steroids had like 130 hp.

We all play to have fun (i think atleast :-)..) .. It dont break my immersion if i am a lv 2 fighter in full plate with shield and fight vs someone who's geared equally and gives me a hard time. It's more boring if there isnt any threat anywhere.

[Jerrykhor]

As a general rule, players shouldn't have plate armour until tier 2 (Level 5).

[sithlordnergal]

Do they have magic armor? I NEVER give out magic armor.

The best way to get to your two tanks is with spells that require Dex saves.

The Forge Cleric is probably the way they're getting magic armor. The Forge Cleric can use their channel divinity to turn mundane weapons and armor into +1 weapons and armor.

[Sk8ter274]

Our chars have insane stats, and our gm knows how to make our battles pretty hard.
(Not all of them, sometimes he choose the wrong strategy and we wipe his force pretty fast...)

So, let them have the platemail. You made a mistake, who cares. Make the enemies harder. Simple as that. You allready said you up them a lv, if thats not enough create hobgoblin barbarians or paladins and let them fight clever.

Our GM makes our fights hard, and if we survive the fight, without slots left and our melees at <30 hp no one ask how the **** that zombies on steroids had like 130 hp.

We all play to have fun (i think atleast :-)..) .. It dont break my immersion if i am a lv 2 fighter in full plate with shield and fight vs someone who's geared equally and gives me a hard time. It's more boring if there isnt any threat anywhere.

That's essentially how we play. I think the module keeps everything relatively low lvl because there's no way of knowing what the group will do first and you run the risk that they'll enter a dungeon they're not supposed to until lvl 4. But with a little prep time it can be fixed. They will be in for s fun surprise when the mage boss at the end is kobold in disguise capable of launching fireball or two as well when the leader turns out ot be bugbear samurai with a drow bard giving him inspiration to hit the cleric with the insane AC. As people have been so helpful in saying, the module isn't king. I AM.

[MintyNinja]

I can relate a bit. In my home game the three PCs have AC 17 (Barbarian), 18 (Fighter), and 18 (Paladin). They have a standard formation where the Paladin sits in the middle with his Protection Fighting Style and Shield Master, the Barbarian grants Advantage against enemies because of Spirit of the Wolf, and the Fighter goes freaking ham with a Greatsword. They're a deadly little knot of steel and muscle and they're proud of that.

So what I've been doing lately is adding more enemy cannon fodder to the fights, with one or two lieutenant-like enemies. Now they have to work together to keep their formation tight, their backsides secure, and their damage focused. It's a different style of play because no one has ranged attacks and all the spellcasting is really being held onto for healing and bringing up downed allies.

I'm excited to see what they can handle when they hit Level 5 (currently at 4), and they ALL get Extra Attack. The dungeon immediately in front of them is semi-water based and so I'll be able to bring that into the tactics of it all.


TL;DR: Adapt to their style. Add a few more enemies per encounter. Make them sweat a little. There's more to a fight than just AC, HP, and Damage.

[Theodoxus]

I'd change one little thing in the module. Depending on where they are, and their next encounter, I'd put a rust monster in the mix. If they're in the Redbrands Hideout, swap a Nothic for a rust monster. If they're exploring Thundertree, add a rust monster...

But I'm kinda vindictive... you exploit my ignorance, I nuke you from orbit.

I think Pex is wrong, given the background so far. The player in question (being the normal DM) knew exactly what he was doing and needs to be knocked down a peg. He'll probably even respect it.

[Joe dirt]

A mysterious man notices the wealth of the inexperienced man and suggest to him to leave the valuable armor and his wealth in the woods outside of town then retire to bed it will make him feel better... now save vs spell as suggestion spell was just cast

[Pex]

I think Pex is wrong,

Never!


given the background so far. The player in question (being the normal DM) knew exactly what he was doing and needs to be knocked down a peg. He'll probably even respect it.

If the player did it on purpose then he's a sack of female cleansing product. It's a metagame problem that should be handled out of game and is not really about having too high an AC for the level.

[sophontteks]

A mysterious man notices the wealth of the inexperienced man and suggest to him to leave the valuable armor and his wealth in the woods outside of town then retire to bed it will make him feel better... now save vs spell as suggestion spell was just cast
Right here. This all the way. Suggestion is the best.

I'm 100% for punishing the player because it sounds like its an experienced player pushing a DM into doing something they normally wouldn't. The DM doesn't understand these abilities the players have and the players are telling the DM a bunch of BS when he asks. They gotta remember who the god at the table is. If they get mad just reach across the table and smack them. If they keep insisting on stuff tell them your thirsty for some tea with two scoops of sugar. Give them a wink and point at the kitchen.

One can argue that its not the most reasonable solution, but it is the most entertaining one.

[Sk8ter274]

Right here. This all the way. Suggestion is the best.

I'm 100% for punishing the player because it sounds like its an experienced player pushing a DM into doing something they normally wouldn't. The DM doesn't understand these abilities the players have and the players are telling the DM a bunch of BS when he asks. They gotta remember who the god at the table is. If they get mad just reach across the table and smack them. If they keep insisting on stuff tell them your thirsty for some tea with two scoops of sugar. Give them a wink and point at the kitchen.

One can argue that its not the most reasonable solution, but it is the most entertaining one.

How's this for reasonable
1. Do the "suggestion" bit after clearing the town of the Redbrand Ruffians and their leader (hinting at a bigger baddie during the boss fight) with nothing short of a Nat 20 to resist.
2. Have the pc wake up to find he was tricked by magic and have no choice but to purchase standard chainmail from the smithy. He'll still be able to make it +1 but it won't be gross ac.
3. Do the rest of module
4. Have him find the armor in the treasure hoard of the green dragon at the end when they're lvl 5+

[greenstone]

As for how he got plate armor. ...and spent the next two days straight, ...to forge the rest of it in the smithy.

The crafting rules in the PHB specify that one day of activity generates goods worth 5 GP and requires raw materials costing half that. Plate armour is actually mentioned in the rules - it requires 300 days of work and 750 GP of raw materials!

I think your fix to this is to sit the players down and say, "Look, I'm sorry, but my generosity has led to you all being too overpowered, skewing the challenges too far to be able to deal with. I'd like to fix this by throwing away all this gear and going back to the starting PC equipment and gold, plus the following loot found in the game."

As mentioned above, plate armour is usually affordable at level 5. In my last game, the entire party saved all our gold to buy one character plate armour at level 6. That nice armour, by the way,got eaten by oozes in the very next encounter. :-)

[Pex]

How's this for reasonable
1. Do the "suggestion" bit after clearing the town of the Redbrand Ruffians and their leader (hinting at a bigger baddie during the boss fight) with nothing short of a Nat 20 to resist.
2. Have the pc wake up to find he was tricked by magic and have no choice but to purchase standard chainmail from the smithy. He'll still be able to make it +1 but it won't be gross ac.
3. Do the rest of module
4. Have him find the armor in the treasure hoard of the green dragon at the end when they're lvl 5+

There's a green dragon in the Phandelver module? Never encountered nor heard of it when I played, or are you making this up for the purpose of handling the thread problem?

[BLC1975]

There's a green dragon in the Phandelver module? Never encountered nor heard of it when I played, or are you making this up for the purpose of handling the thread problem?

Umm...there's kind of a big hint on the box art?

[Throne12]

I state I've haven't played this Module so I don't know anything about.

1. Add some rust monsters or oozes.
2. When they get back in town have a little kid run up to them tell them the blacksmith needs to speak with them. When they get to the blacksmith he hands them a Receipt for all the metal the cleric got. Then ask if they are going to be paying in coin or trade? The amount they need to pay should be 1000gp that after that nat 20 the player got and other metal stuff he had. Don't let them talk you down anymore. Have the blacksmith tell them "look I need that money or else I'll have to close my shop and cant feed my family. I let you have all my metal at the time thinking you be Adverters and can pay me back quickly but. I just a big order for a lot of horse shoes and I don't have the metal or money to buy metal. Ya'll kind of put me in a tight spot I don't have any options here. So can ya'll please pay your bill."
3. Add 1 and 2 together

[Vorpal Crowbar]

The crafting rules in the PHB specify that one day of activity generates goods worth 5 GP and requires raw materials costing half that. Plate armour is actually mentioned in the rules - it requires 300 days of work and 750 GP of raw materials!

I think your fix to this is to sit the players down and say, "Look, I'm sorry, but my generosity has led to you all being too overpowered, skewing the challenges too far to be able to deal with. I'd like to fix this by throwing away all this gear and going back to the starting PC equipment and gold, plus the following loot found in the game."

As mentioned above, plate armour is usually affordable at level 5. In my last game, the entire party saved all our gold to buy one character plate armour at level 6. That nice armour, by the way,got eaten by oozes in the very next encounter. :-)

Well if the guy is a forge cleric it is reasonable to afford it a little earlier - I'm a 3 lvl forge cleric in an "Out of the Abyss" campaign. I/we the party started with nothing but rations. After 3 levels of greyhawking every every item off corpses, through Blessing of the Forge, I've managed to outfit the party with more or less normal lvl 1 starting gearing. I figure its possible to get enough to afford buy plate by level 41/2.

If you start at lvl 1 with plate, in a "normal" setting (campaign modules without DM modifications or houserules) you're gonna be OP.


That said, I agree with early post - good tactics can brutalize your tanks, OP or not. I disagree with you're sit down suggestion, cause its hard to hit the reset button on people - I would suggest, just adjust tactics accordingly.

None of these care what your AC is:


Pit traps with spikes - falling damage+piercing, a dex save, and a round or two out of melee combat
Bear traps - dex save, damage & immobilized
caltrops - no save, 1/2 speed slow they into melee, means you can range attack them
vials of acid - dex save


or


Change the terrain - cliffs - enemies hard to reach or dangerous to attack while climbing (advantage to enemy, disadvantage to player


As the DM you got options.

-Vorpal Crowbar

[Ignimortis]

Wow, crafted plate metel in a couple days with scrap. That's one amazing smith. and do to it for free? Absolutely insane. A '20' is nowhere near enough. That wouldn't even pass a 35 persuasion check. These NPCs depend on their services for a living. They don't just do 1500gp worth of work for free, not even for the best smiles.

What i'd do is walk it back entirely. The armor falls apart in the middle of a fight. Its made of scrap metal afterall. It'd make for some interesting social encounters with that smith, who turns out to be a bit too confident in his abilities.

In a cave. With a box of scraps! Pretty sure that's an origin story!


Yeah plate is INSANE to have at that level; that's an end-game reward. Typically my players won't have resources to purchase plate until they're approaching level 15. And as other have said, it takes the better part of a year for a character to craft it themselves, even if they have the materials.

It's going to be hard to deal with the consequences now, but you can do it by carefully tailoring the encounters to counter the characters' strengths. It's going to feel a bit unfair to your players when every enemy ends up "coincidentally" being great at countering high AC, though.

You might want to consider just playing these characters through Lost Mines only, and having the players create new ones to start your homebrew campaign, and following the loot rules more closely for the new characters.

Plate, an end-game reward? By level 10 non-magic plate is pretty dull and everyone who wants a suit should have one. By level 15, it'd better be +2. 1500gp should be affordable at level 7 at least, even if you're skewing the loot tables a bit lower. 18AC isn't that good at level 10, much less at level 15.

[Bloodcloud]

Well, how is his strenght? Is he vulnerable to the Great Goblin Grappler? If he's pinned on the ground, his plate ain't doing much...

Also, yes, rust monster.

[ErHo]

Rust monster RAWR!!

And a Beholder with an anti magic field?

[Sk8ter274]

There's a green dragon in the Phandelver module? Never encountered nor heard of it when I played, or are you making this up for the purpose of handling the thread problem?

No, did not make it up. There is a green dragon in thundertree ruins. According to the module, they're supposed to chase it off by getting it done half health. It's a relatively easy fight, as far as dragons go, since it's a young dragon called Venomfang without legendary actions. The only thing really strong about it is its poison breath and the dwarfs have restiance to it

[Coec]

An old DM of mine would just start removing loot from the adventure to compensate for the plate armor that the player swindled out of you.

If i remember correctly LMoP never had you roll for magic items which tells me that all the loot drops are predetermined for the campaign. Using that info, it should be easy to calculate the amount of magic items or coin or whatever out of the game. This will also tell you who read the module if they complain that there's a wand in that chest what happened to it... but that's if you're having that issue.

You can still increase the encounters to make them harder and the rust monster sounds fun too.

I think the DM-turned-player abused the situation with you. Maybe to show you what it's like when you do it to him maybe not. At the very least have a conversation with the group as a whole that moving forward if an error on your part or theirs; whether good or bad happens, can and most likely should be corrected moving forward. We're all humans and we make mistakes. We should be able to fix mistakes when we catch them.

[Pex]

Umm...there's kind of a big hint on the box art?

I haven't seen the box art. I've only played it.

We did the goblins, the bandits, the banshee, the doppelganger and bugbears, and the mine itself with its ghouls, flaming skull, and spectator. We purposely avoided the stirges and wraith and told our dwarf patron they were still down there after we cleared everything else out, liberated the forge, and found Lightbringer.


No, did not make it up. There is a green dragon in thundertree ruins. According to the module, they're supposed to chase it off by getting it done half health. It's a relatively easy fight, as far as dragons go, since it's a young dragon called Venomfang without legendary actions. The only thing really strong about it is its poison breath and the dwarfs have restiance to it

We didn't have that encounter. We were going to head north after dealing with the bandits, but our warlock found and kept the rat wanting it for a pet and possibly familiar. Out of character I guessed what the rat was, and sure enough I was right. The BBEG of the bandits overheard all our plans about heading north. We figured he was setting up an ambush for us since the rat was not to be found in the morning, so we had to change our plans quickly and decided to take the banshee option. Since the BBEG took the rest of his bandits out of town to ambush us up north that allowed the Harpers to come in and secure the town against their return, so the warlock's initial stupidity was a blessing in disguise. Maybe that's how we diverged off script so to speak for a bit.

[Sk8ter274]

An old DM of mine would just start removing loot from the adventure to compensate for the plate armor

I was planning on doing something to that extent by leaning drops toward the sorcerer and warlock. However, I'm just going to make it simple and have them wake up to find the bodies of a white lizard, house car, and two rats each pinned to magic item they have on them with the note that reads

"I hope you value your lives more than these trinkets" VM

But as the leader, the clerics armor is going to be it ripped to pieces with a note saying
"I'd see to whomever forged this scrap gives you a refund. The craftsmanship is shoddy at best. I thought you mountain rats had an eye for these sort of things" VM

From there, I'll be careful about it and probably give him lvl appropriate magical armor or shield. I'll see things play out

[MilkmanDanimal]

The aforementioned rust monsters will solve your problem both quickly and hilariously, and, to combine that with another post, you introduce your part to Bobbo the Evil Goblin Druid who knows Heat Metal, and his pet rust monster Rodney.

Throw in some hidden pit traps filled with water. Plate mail-clad dwarves don't float.

I'd honestly just take the "I made a mistake, you can't have that armor" and, if they complain, suggest a new campaign. For one, those tanks are going to be so effective the other characters are basically there to go get coffee if the dwarves get thirsty, and it's not really fair to the other two players.

[Sigreid]

I was planning on doing something to that extent by leaning drops toward the sorcerer and warlock. However, I'm just going to make it simple and have them wake up to find the bodies of a white lizard, house car, and two rats each pinned to magic item they have on them with the note that reads

"I hope you value your lives more than these trinkets" VM

But as the leader, the clerics armor is going to be it ripped to pieces with a note saying
"I'd see to whomever forged this scrap gives you a refund. The craftsmanship is shoddy at best. I thought you mountain rats had an eye for these sort of things" VM

From there, I'll be careful about it and probably give him lvl appropriate magical armor or shield. I'll see things play out

Yeah, I would be more disgruntled over this approach than if I found myself facing rust monsters knowing the DM was correcting a mistake.

Aside from that, there isn't really such thing as an over powered party. You just have to adjust for what you have allowed.

[Sk8ter274]

Yeah, I would be more disgruntled over this approach than if I found myself facing rust monsters knowing the DM was correcting a mistake.

Aside from that, there isn't really such thing as an over powered party. You just have to adjust for what you have allowed.

Then maybe I'll pair the final boss of the dungeon, a wizard with a pet rust monster than can actually corrode magical armor and weapons since in can't in 5e ( pg 262 in the Monster Manual). I'll have to do is change the color and RP a few lines to explain it.

[Sigreid]

Then maybe I'll pair the final boss of the dungeon, a wizard with a pet rust monster than can actually corrode magical armor and weapons since in can't in 5e ( pg 262 in the Monster Manual). I'll have to do is change the color and RP a few lines to explain it.

I think that is a better answer.

[Fredaintdead]

Campaign I'm in, Paladin has +1 Plate and a +1 Shield. 24 AC, no other bonuses. We're level 13 and the DM can't even hit them with an adult red dragon. STR isn't even maxed and the dragon stll couldn't knock them into a river of lava. Shield Mastery feat so by succeeded on the breath weapon they STILL took no damage. We have been slowly driving this DM insane with out-of-the-box thinking. Fog Cloud early levels, absurd luck, unhittable paladin, Animate Object with ten Tiny-sized steel bearings (his reaction to that has been my favorite so far), and finally, rolling a THREE on Divine Intervention.

I don't really see how the dragon was having trouble hitting the Paladin.
1. An Adult Red has +14 to hit (so >50% chance to hit), and can make as many as 6 attacks (3 in its action, and 3 tail attacks via Legendary actions) in a round against them. Realistically speaking that's 3 hits a turn, amounting to about 50-60 damage. So I assume that the DM was just rolling badly? (Also +1 Plate [AC 19] and a +1 Shield [+3 AC] gives a total AC of 22, not 24)
2. The Paladin's dex save shouldn't be that high. +5 for Charisma and maybe a +1 modifier for a total of +6 (Shield Master's 2nd ability that grants a bonus to Dex saves only applies vs single target Dex saves), leaving a 30% chance of the Paladin making the save (15+ on dice). So I'm imagining they just got lucky on the dice roll to pass the save?
3. Now with shoving them into lava, that's a different kettle of fish. While the dragon has a +8 Strength Modifier, it's not proficient in Athletics, so I imagine that even without maxed Strength, the paladin matches that (assuming they do have proficiency in Athletics).

Saying that, I certainly applaud your out-of-the-box thinking, and for how well the dice have been favouring you. Clearly you've been making the right offerings to Nuffle.

As for the topic of the thread, it seems like as a forum we're split between "Punish because they might've exploited you and it's making things difficult" and "Just make the encounters match the party", so a proper solution should combine a touch of both I'd imagine.

Things to try differently in future for the purpose of increasing the challenge:
1. Ensure monsters (especially those with ranged attackers) spread some of their fire to the squishier members. They've got hit points and hit dice, so make them use them.
2. Target the Paladin and Cleric with the occasional saving throw (I recommend Dex and Con specifically). Maybe some of the more humanoid enemies are using alchemical firebombs. Especially justifiable if the party has gained the notice of the main enemy, who might be smart enough to research the party a little. This will also help with getting them to make concentration saves and with enough of those their Shield of Faiths will drop.
3. Numbers. Doesn't matter how high their AC is, if you fire enough arrows, you will land some damage. Goblin Archers from behind cover are good at this. Especially with poisoned arrows. (They're Dwarves, they can take a few of those) Melee monsters with Pack Tactics are good for this as well. Surround them with Wolves or Kobolds (or Kobolds riding Wolves) and it won't matter
4. Give monsters higher to-hit bonuses. The low AC members of the party may already be on a near auto-hit already, so this shouldn't bother them, while still making the tankier members slightly less impossible to hit. Maybe the enemy archers have had some training and now have the archery fighting style?
5. Put them up against more monsters with resistance to nonmagical weapons. This will encourage the Cleric to use their Blessing of the Forge on weapons rather than Armour Class.
6. As suggested, the Heat Metal spell will do wonders to make them regret relying on that heavy armour.

Immediate things to do to deal with the immediate issue:
1. Talk to the players beforehand. Indicate that you made a mistake, and that you're looking to fix it. They may have suggestions on this, but be clear that you will be trying to fix the issue by directly reducing their Armour Class. Maybe ask politely for the Cleric to use Blessing of the Forge more on weapons.
2. The next humanoid enemy they encounter uses some sort of scroll. The scroll contains a spell specifically designed to weaken (but not destroy) metals. Let them make a saving throw against it if you want to, but otherwise it downgrades the Plate to Splint and the Splint to Chain. If there are no humanoids, maybe an area of magical interference that causes a similar effect on the metal of their armour.

Projected changes:
1. Cleric starts using Blessing of the Forge more on weapons. Reducing their AC from 21 to 20 (22 with Shield of Faith).
2. Cleric is now in Splint. Reducing AC from 20 to 19 (21 with Shield of Faith).
3. Paladin is now in Chain. Reducing AC from 20 to 19 (21 with Shield of Faith).

AC 19 is still a high AC, but it's also realistically hittable for beginner monsters (who generally have between +3 to +5 to hit).