rogue / mystic

[Phazed]

So level 3 rogue and level 1 mystic. My DM is going to allow this multi class. Dagger user, dm allows me to throw daggers and use both daggers on the first turn of combat. any more rules i can tell you if needed, I want to kind of min/max my damage going around this kind of dagger/sneaky build. so far im thinking order of the nomad stuff, a lot of it works well with daggers and sneaking i think. But none of this is set in stone and im open up for other build ideas with rogue/mystic. So how would you go about doing this? and what levels would you go into mystic? i think i want to go level 4 rogue for feat then maybe another level into mystic? I want to know your ideas.

[Kaliayev]

Which archetype did you choose for your rogue?

[Mortis_Elrod]

I like soul knife for this with a focus on twfing. Soul knife and rogue get good use out of it. Not sure what race you plan but as far as subclasses for rogue, Arcane trickster is best here and pick up booming blade or green flame blade.

Disciplines....

Lots of defense disciplines. Not much for twfing. Not sure what to do here.

[Phazed]

Which archetype did you choose for your rogue?

i was thinking swashbuckler, it gives the most for the amount of levels rogue would have. so far im thinking 11 rogue and 9 mystic. you make up for the lack of sneak attack with psi damage, like 7d10 if u want to use that much.
i thought about assassin but really its only beneficial skill it would get is the level 3 one.

[Phazed]

I like soul knife for this with a focus on twfing. Soul knife and rogue get good use out of it. Not sure what race you plan but as far as subclasses for rogue, Arcane trickster is best here and pick up booming blade or green flame blade.

Disciplines....

Lots of defense disciplines. Not much for twfing. Not sure what to do here.

i like the idea of soul blade but i dont like that it replaces your dagger with like dagger hands like some reject deadpool from the xmen movies thats weird to me.

[Kaliayev]

i was thinking swashbuckler, it gives the most for the amount of levels rogue would have. so far im thinking 11 rogue and 9 mystic. you make up for the lack of sneak attack with psi damage, like 7d10 if u want to use that much.
i thought about assassin but really its only beneficial skill it would get is the level 3 one.

Also, what are your stats? If you're already planning to max your int, order of the immortal's health boost can't be beat. Otherwise, go with order of the nomad. Soul knives are neat on paper, but you're sacrificing a lot to use them. If you're an arcane trickster, you're practically getting the same thing with a shadow blade.

If you haven't already picked your rogue archetype, I would go with arcane trickster. Imo, that archetype has the most synergy with mystic, especially a nomad or immortal build. Swashbuckler is probably second best. Most of the others are kinda redundant. Assassin's surprise crit has good synergy with mystic's added damage output, but you only get one round to capitalize on it, and there are a decent number of creatures that simply can't be surprised at higher levels.

As a rogue, you would want to reach at least level nine for the chameleon's sustained invisibility. If you find a cloak of invisibility before then, ignore that discipline, unless you want to free up an attunement slot. For a rogue, chameleon, mind, and step are obvious candidates. Imo, celerity would work well with a rogue, but there might be more enticing options. Mastery of light and darkness would be a good way to guarantee advantage, prior to picking up invisibility. You'll be one of the few people begging the caster to use the darkness spell. Once you get access to invisibility, it's probably safe to drop mastery of light and darkness (said discipline still works quite well with shadow blade). Diminution is also good for a rogue. If you need more defense at any point, bestial form, mastery of wood and earth, and mastery of ice are good candidates. For sneak attack damage output, bestial form also helps here, psionic weapon is decent, and nomadic arrow is insane with crossbow expert.

For your build path, I would save 8-11 in rogue for last, unless you really need those ASIs. You're going to want to focus on getting uncanny dodge/evasion (plus shadow blade if trickster) or unlocking your psi potential ASAP. I would go straight to seven in rogue or straight to five in mystic. After that, focus on getting the above benefits from whichever class you didn't prioritize.

[Mortis_Elrod]

i like the idea of soul blade but i dont like that it replaces your dagger with like dagger hands like some reject deadpool from the xmen movies thats weird to me.

Kind of feel like that’s a non issue if you talk to your GM.

For melee the most consistent damage boost is the Giant Growth and Beute Force. Knock Back is very useful since it uses your reaction to dondamage boost instead of your bonus action, which gives other options.

[Phazed]

Also, what are your stats? If you're already planning to max your int, order of the immortal's health boost can't be beat. Otherwise, go with order of the nomad. Soul knives are neat on paper, but you're sacrificing a lot to use them. If you're an arcane trickster, you're practically getting the same thing with a shadow blade.

If you haven't already picked your rogue archetype, I would go with arcane trickster. Imo, that archetype has the most synergy with mystic, especially a nomad or immortal build. Swashbuckler is probably second best. Most of the others are kinda redundant. Assassin's surprise crit has good synergy with mystic's added damage output, but you only get one round to capitalize on it, and there are a decent number of creatures that simply can't be surprised at higher levels.

As a rogue, you would want to reach at least level nine for the chameleon's sustained invisibility. If you find a cloak of invisibility before then, ignore that discipline, unless you want to free up an attunement slot. For a rogue, chameleon, mind, and step are obvious candidates. Imo, celerity would work well with a rogue, but there might be more enticing options. Mastery of light and darkness would be a good way to guarantee advantage, prior to picking up invisibility. You'll be one of the few people begging the caster to use the darkness spell. Once you get access to invisibility, it's probably safe to drop mastery of light and darkness (said discipline still works quite well with shadow blade). Diminution is also good for a rogue. If you need more defense at any point, bestial form, mastery of wood and earth, and mastery of ice are good candidates. For sneak attack damage output, bestial form also helps here, psionic weapon is decent, and nomadic arrow is insane with crossbow expert.

For your build path, I would save 8-11 in rogue for last, unless you really need those ASIs. You're going to want to focus on getting uncanny dodge/evasion (plus shadow blade if trickster) or unlocking your psi potential ASAP. I would go straight to seven in rogue or straight to five in mystic. After that, focus on getting the above benefits from whichever class you didn't prioritize.

13 str
18 dex
12 con
9 int
16 wis
16 cha

i was thinking swashbuckler because ill mostly be using daggers and using mystic to like boost my dagger damage. im kind of basing all my mystic stuff around daggers and dagger throwing. Also swashbuckler kind of frees up some use of my bonus action so i dont have to disengage as often, gives me a bit of movement freedom.
you think i should level my mystic before my rogue? i was thinking going 4 rogue 1 mystic for a feat then more mystic maybe? idk

if you had to change soul knives into something good how would you do it? iv thought about asking my dm if maybe it was just an energy that took over the weapons i was using at the time. but then id lose out on like a lot of good disciplines and idk what one id use

[Phazed]

Kind of feel like that’s a non issue if you talk to your GM.

For melee the most consistent damage boost is the Giant Growth and Beute Force. Knock Back is very useful since it uses your reaction to dondamage boost instead of your bonus action, which gives other options.

yeah maybe i could talk to him about like energy going around whatever weapons im holding instead. that way i could drop my daggers or use my hands and its more of like a buff to whatever weapon im using.

[Kaliayev]

9 int
16 wis
16 cha

Is this a mistake? Extending the multiclassing framework to mystic, you need 13 int to multiclass. If your DM is fine with you having a 9 in the class's core ability, you should probably avoid taking any disciplines that involve enemy saving throws or attacks using your int modifier.


i was thinking swashbuckler because ill mostly be using daggers and using mystic to like boost my dagger damage. im kind of basing all my mystic stuff around daggers and dagger throwing. Also swashbuckler kind of frees up some use of my bonus action so i dont have to disengage as often, gives me a bit of movement freedom.

You're perfectly welcome to use swashbuckler. It just has less synergy than arcane trickster. Most of your damage is going to come from your sneak attack. Further attacks on your turn have significantly diminished returns, even if you're dual wielding daggers. I would prioritize gaining advantage on one big sneak attack over hitting multiple times with diminished returns.

Let me paint a picture for you. You move up to a creature with mastery of light and darkness focus active. You shroud yourself and the creature in magical darkness with your action, effectively blinding the creature. With your bonus action, you cast shadow blade (prior to getting this spell, you can use a rapier). If the creature tries to leave the darkened area, you get an AoO against him with advantage. If he tries to attack you, he has disadvantage and you have uncanny dodge. Even if he has a sight trait that ignores magical darkness, your shadow blade still has advantage in darkness.


you think i should level my mystic before my rogue? i was thinking going 4 rogue 1 mystic for a feat then more mystic maybe? idk

That's not quite what I was saying. I was saying you should pick one and focus on it for x number of levels. You're kinda locked out of a decent chunk of mystic's power until you hit level five. Rogue's greatest assets are active at level seven. You should try to reach one of the class's core assets as quickly as you can, so you're not handicapping yourself with too much level splitting.


if you had to change soul knives into something good how would you do it? iv thought about asking my dm if maybe it was just an energy that took over the weapons i was using at the time. but then id lose out on like a lot of good disciplines and idk what one id use

It's just the weakest order. Dropping two disciplines and the other orders' benefits just doesn't appeal to me. You would have to convince your DM to add quite a few features to make soul knives worthwhile.

p.s. Shadow blade has light, finesse, and thrown properties. It does 2d8 psychic damage. It has advantage on attacks in dim light and darkness. Maintaining concentration is the only drawback, but not much is going to hit you if you're shrouded in magical darkness.

p.p.s. Alternatively, you could still use shadow blade with a swashbuckler. Go with wu jen and pick up shadow blade through arcane dabbler. Casting it with a higher level spell slot adds damage, so you could have a 4d8 psychic damage shadow blade in one hand and a dagger in your other hand for additional attacks.

[Phazed]

Is this a mistake? Extending the multiclassing framework to mystic, you need 13 int to multiclass. If your DM is fine with you having a 9 in the class's core ability, you should probably avoid taking any disciplines that involve enemy saving throws or attacks using your int modifier.



You're perfectly welcome to use swashbuckler. It just has less synergy than arcane trickster. Most of your damage is going to come from your sneak attack. Further attacks on your turn have significantly diminished returns, even if you're dual wielding daggers. I would prioritize gaining advantage on one big sneak attack over hitting multiple times with diminished returns.

Let me paint a picture for you. You move up to a creature with mastery of light and darkness focus active. You shroud yourself and the creature in magical darkness with your action, effectively blinding the creature. With your bonus action, you cast shadow blade (prior to getting this spell, you can use a rapier). If the creature tries to leave the darkened area, you get an AoO against him with advantage. If he tries to attack you, he has disadvantage and you have uncanny dodge. Even if he has a sight trait that ignores magical darkness, your shadow blade still has advantage in darkness.



That's not quite what I was saying. I was saying you should pick one and focus on it for x number of levels. You're kinda locked out of a decent chunk of mystic's power until you hit level five. Rogue's greatest assets are active at level seven. You should try to reach one of the class's core assets as quickly as you can, so you're not handicapping yourself with too much level splitting.



It's just the weakest order. Dropping two disciplines and the other orders' benefits just doesn't appeal to me. You would have to convince your DM to add quite a few features to make soul knives worthwhile.

p.s. Shadow blade has light, finesse, and thrown properties. It does 2d8 psychic damage. It has advantage on attacks in dim light and darkness. Maintaining concentration is the only drawback, but not much is going to hit you if you're shrouded in magical darkness.

p.p.s. Alternatively, you could still use shadow blade with a swashbuckler. Go with wu jen and pick up shadow blade through arcane dabbler. Casting it with a higher level spell slot adds damage, so you could have a 4d8 psychic damage shadow blade in one hand and a dagger in your other hand for additional attacks.

Yeah my DM allows it for story and isn't super hard on those rules for stat requirements. So far none of the disciplines iv thought of use any type of saves or anything, its all like buffing damage stuff and survival stuff.
Also can't swashbuckler pretty much always have sneak attack if played correctly. doesn't need advantage or a person near it.
my issue with shadow blade, as cool as it sounds and i like that damage, but i do use a lot of dagger throwing, and then i have to use my bonus action to make it reappear. that's a lot of bonus actions i couldn't use on psi stuff.

The main issue im having is when to level what at what level. mystic 1 has like no psi points to do anything besides twice then you have to long rest. so far how iv been doing combat if i want to use psi points is

use speed dart on dagger while stealthed(or not if mid combat). throw dagger, it gets sneak attack for one of x reasons. so 1d4(dagger) + 2d6(sneak attack) + 2d10(speed dart) + 4dex mod. and mystic has a lot of reaction stuff to not get hit by attacks if you wanted to use your psi points in a defensive measure also. swashbuckler would allow sneak attack on every turn also. if you don't want to use psi points i could dagger someone and throw my other dagger at someone else with my bonus action while moving away from the guy i just hit.

i guess im not super min/maxing because there are other things i could do. but i guess im min/maxing around the way my character fights. duel wielding daggers, often throwing them. using psi points as burst of damage at the start of combat and sometimes midway. Using teleport and cloaking to sneak around.

so yeah again my issue is just knowing when to points into what class at what level for the most optimal power increase

[Daithi]

Nomadic is pretty good, and I think it fits your concept really well. Since your character likes throwing daggers then the Nomadic Arrow discipline with Speed Dart would work pretty well for you.


Speed Dart (1–7 psi). As a bonus action, you imbue one ranged weapon you hold with psionic power (e.g. your dagger). The next attack you make with it that hits before the end of the current turn deals an extra 1d10 psychic damage per psi point spent.

The above only occurs when you hit, so if you happen to miss you can also use--


Seeking Missile (2 psi). As a reaction when you miss with a ranged weapon attack, you can repeat the attack roll against the same target.

The Psychic Focus for this discipline fits well too, as your ranged weapon attacks ignore disadvantage.

[Phazed]

Nomadic is pretty good, and I think it fits your concept really well. Since your character likes throwing daggers then the Nomadic Arrow discipline with Speed Dart would work pretty well for you.


Speed Dart (1–7 psi). As a bonus action, you imbue one ranged weapon you hold with psionic power (e.g. your dagger). The next attack you make with it that hits before the end of the current turn deals an extra 1d10 psychic damage per psi point spent.

The above only occurs when you hit, so if you happen to miss you can also use--


Seeking Missile (2 psi). As a reaction when you miss with a ranged weapon attack, you can repeat the attack roll against the same target.

The Psychic Focus for this discipline fits well too, as your ranged weapon attacks ignore disadvantage.

yeah that's i think also. also nomadic step is really good, 2 psi to make an attack miss.
also eventually faithful archer(i think thats its name) and i get a free extra attack.

[Kaliayev]

Yeah my DM allows it for story and isn't super hard on those rules for stat requirements. So far none of the disciplines iv thought of use any type of saves or anything, its all like buffing damage stuff and survival stuff.
Also can't swashbuckler pretty much always have sneak attack if played correctly. doesn't need advantage or a person near it.
my issue with shadow blade, as cool as it sounds and i like that damage, but i do use a lot of dagger throwing, and then i have to use my bonus action to make it reappear. that's a lot of bonus actions i couldn't use on psi stuff.

The darkness-loving rogue/mystic affords sneak attacks, via advantage, at a very high rate, as creatures inside the darkness will be blind. With shadow blade, advantage is guaranteed in your area of death, even if you're fighting a creature with truesight. Having an advantaged sneak attack is simply better than a sneak attack that relies on a single roll. The latter misses more frequently. If you're using your reaction to reroll that miss, you're giving up uncanny dodge/AoO for the rest of the round.

Like I said previously, you could still pursue shadow blade with a dual wielding swashbuckler/wu jen combination. Speed dart + thrown dagger won't be able to match lethal strike + melee shadow blade + darkness over time. However, the former is still a good opener for a surprise round.


The main issue im having is when to level what at what level. mystic 1 has like no psi points to do anything besides twice then you have to long rest. so far how iv been doing combat if i want to use psi points is

In that case, you may want to go straight to five with mystic (six if going the wu jen route). After that, straight to seven with rogue. After that, straight to nine with mystic, followed by rogue to 11. If you're swapping every level, you're going to fall way behind in terms of effectiveness.


p.s. Given how lax your DM is, you may want to ask if mastery of light and darkness's darkness can be mobile, like the darkness spell.

[Phazed]

The darkness-loving rogue/mystic affords sneak attacks, via advantage, at a very high rate, as creatures inside the darkness will be blind. With shadow blade, advantage is guaranteed in your area of death, even if you're fighting a creature with truesight. Having an advantaged sneak attack is simply better than a sneak attack that relies on a single roll. The latter misses more frequently. If you're using your reaction to reroll that miss, you're giving up uncanny dodge/AoO for the rest of the round.

Like I said previously, you could still pursue shadow blade with a dual wielding swashbuckler/wu jen combination. Speed dart + thrown dagger won't be able to match lethal strike + melee shadow blade + darkness over time. However, the former is still a good opener for a surprise round.



In that case, you may want to go straight to five with mystic (six if going the wu jen route). After that, straight to seven with rogue. After that, straight to nine with mystic, followed by rogue to 11. If you're swapping every level, you're going to fall way behind in terms of effectiveness.


p.s. Given how lax your DM is, you may want to ask if mastery of light and darkness's darkness can be mobile, like the darkness spell.

how would combat go with shadow blade tho? if i use the darkness thing at the start of combat i cant use shadow blade till my next turn right? because both are bonus actions. and if i ever wanted too do a long range attack i have to use a bonus action to get them out again.

can you give me the play by play? also if i was level 4 already and 3 rogue 1 mystic, how would u go about leveling then? i was thinking lvl 4 rogue for lucky feat then going mystic 5, im not sure tho.

also for shadow blade do i need to be level 6 mystic for arcane dabbler to use shadow blades? or?

[Kaliayev]

how would combat go with shadow blade tho? if i use the darkness thing at the start of combat i cant use shadow blade till my next turn right? because both are bonus actions. and if i ever wanted too do a long range attack i have to use a bonus action to get them out again.

can you give me the play by play? also if i was level 4 already and 3 rogue 1 mystic, how would u go about leveling then? i was thinking lvl 4 rogue for lucky feat then going mystic 5, im not sure tho.

also for shadow blade do i need to be level 6 mystic for arcane dabbler to use shadow blades? or?

Darkness costs an action and shadow blade costs a bonus action. That's a turn. You would be doing jack during your first turn, but the returns would be massive.

Let's say you want to be a proper meanie and, for lack of a better phrase, max cast darkness. You create a sphere of darkness with a 70 foot radius. RAW, this magical darkness can't be dispelled, as it's not a spell. The darkness is effectively permanent (this is in no way balanced, but it has no duration). Only light created by a 3rd level or higher spell slot will be effective in the darkness. A source of antimagic would also suppress the darkness, but that's a rare encounter (even if you encounter a beholder, you can engineer a situation where it's forced to focus on you with its antimagic eye, making the rest of its eyes useless against you and the rest of your party capable of using magic against it).

If you're in melee range of a creature and it tries to move, you get an advantaged AoO, which qualifies for sneak attack. Anyone moving in this sphere without special sight probably has little idea of where it's going, making escaping the sphere somewhat unlikely. It would have to rely on auditory cues to figure out where to go. As rounds move forward, you move around in the darkness, attacking, with advantage, anything unfortunate enough to be in your sphere of death, even if it has special sight. Again, advantaged AoO against a creature that tries to move past or away from you in the sphere.


For arcane dabbler, you need to be a level six wu jen mystic. At that point, you learn three wizard spells that are level 1-3. You can use your bonus action to create up to a level five spell slot. The spell slot remains until you use it or finish a long rest. This means you can create the slot between encounters and use it whenever you want. If you devote 14 of your psi points from a long rest to the above tactic, you'll have a 4d8 psychic damage shadow blade and a 140 foot diameter sphere of magical darkness :smallcool:. With your swashbuckler archetype, you're moving around enemies you've attacked without a care in the world, though your sight is only 30 feet in the magical darkness. This can create some wonky movement as you probe through the darkness for enemies, but I don't consider this to be a big deal. Btw, unless a caster has special sight, said caster is going to have a very rough time trying to hit you with spells that rely on seeing you. They would have to guess your location and have disadvantage on an attack roll if they guessed right. Casters are also going to have some difficulty pinpointing your location for an AoE spell.

As far as leveling is concerned, I already told you how I would approach the build. You can follow the advice I've given or come up with something you think works better for your table. I can't decide for you.

p.s. The rest of your party might hate you if you go overboard with the size of your darkness sphere.

p.p.s. Throw in some maniacal laughs/taunts as you're moving around for flavor and misdirection, especially if you come to possess boots of elvenkind.

[Phazed]

Darkness costs an action and shadow blade costs a bonus action. That's a turn. You would be doing jack during your first turn, but the returns would be massive.

Let's say you want to be a proper meanie and, for lack of a better phrase, max cast darkness. You create a sphere of darkness with a 70 foot radius. RAW, this magical darkness can't be dispelled, as it's not a spell. The darkness is effectively permanent (this is in no way balanced, but it has no duration). Only light created by a 3rd level or higher spell slot will be effective in the darkness. A source of antimagic would also suppress the darkness, but that's a rare encounter (even if you encounter a beholder, you can engineer a situation where it's forced to focus on you with its antimagic eye, making the rest of its eyes useless against you and the rest of your party capable of using magic against it).

If you're in melee range of a creature and it tries to move, you get an advantaged AoO, which qualifies for sneak attack. Anyone moving in this sphere without special sight probably has little idea of where it's going, making escaping the sphere somewhat unlikely. It would have to rely on auditory cues to figure out where to go. As rounds move forward, you move around in the darkness, attacking, with advantage, anything unfortunate enough to be in your sphere of death, even if it has special sight. Again, advantaged AoO against a creature that tries to move past or away from you in the sphere.


For arcane dabbler, you need to be a level six wu jen mystic. At that point, you learn three wizard spells that are level 1-3. You can use your bonus action to create up to a level five spell slot. The spell slot remains until you use it or finish a long rest. This means you can create the slot between encounters and use it whenever you want. If you devote 14 of your psi points from a long rest to the above tactic, you'll have a 4d8 psychic damage shadow blade and a 140 foot diameter sphere of magical darkness :smallcool:. With your swashbuckler archetype, you're moving around enemies you've attacked without a care in the world, though your sight is only 30 feet in the magical darkness. This can create some wonky movement as you probe through the darkness for enemies, but I don't consider this to be a big deal. Btw, unless a caster has special sight, said caster is going to have a very rough time trying to hit you with spells that rely on seeing you. They would have to guess your location and have disadvantage on an attack roll if they guessed right. Casters are also going to have some difficulty pinpointing your location for an AoE spell.

As far as leveling is concerned, I already told you how I would approach the build. You can follow the advice I've given or come up with something you think works better for your table. I can't decide for you.

p.s. The rest of your party might hate you if you go overboard with the size of your darkness sphere.

p.p.s. Throw in some maniacal laughs/taunts as you're moving around for flavor and misdirection, especially if you come to possess boots of elvenkind.

this sounds like a lot of fun, this would still technically work without shadow blade also tho right? because its that darkness spell that gives me advantage because id be focusing on master of light and dark so id be able to see in there anyways and always get advantage from that?

thanks for the help. i really liked nomad and everything it had to offer and a lot of its skills seemed to help earlier with damage and survival

[Kaliayev]

this sounds like a lot of fun, this would still technically work without shadow blade also tho right? because its that darkness spell that gives me advantage because id be focusing on master of light and dark so id be able to see in there anyways and always get advantage from that?

Yes, but it would be less potent, unless you're fighting a golem or something else that is immune to psychic damage. You would also lose the advantage against anything with special sight that counters magical darkness. Provided you are attacking the creature in darkness with a shadow blade, you would still have advantage against such a special-sighted creature.

[Phazed]

Yes, but it would be less potent, unless you're fighting a golem or something else that is immune to psychic damage. You would also lose the advantage against anything with special sight that counters magical darkness. Provided you are attacking the creature in darkness with a shadow blade, you would still have advantage against such a special-sighted creature.


what if you were going to go nomad? how would you play it? the same but without the shadow blade?

[Kaliayev]

what if you were going to go nomad? how would you play it? the same but without the shadow blade?

Yes. After reaching level nine, and depending on the encounter, I might opt for enduring invisibility over a massive sphere of darkness, which could hinder my allies.

[Daithi]

Yes. After reaching level nine, and depending on the encounter, I might opt for enduring invisibility over a massive sphere of darkness, which could hinder my allies.

Plus, Enduring Invisibility with Psionic Blast let's you give 1d8 damage per psi spent --- no save. Your target just starts dying without knowing why.