Godhood . . . help

[nonsi]

.
A few weeks ago I concocted this set of rules for attaining and advancing in divinity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18875745&postcount=32).
What I had in mind was to create a complete set of rules that would allow a narrator (a GM that is) to tell any story that has ever been told about a divine entity in RL myths/folklore (but not necessarily the cosmology, such as the Styx, the underworld etc - that's too wide an area to cover).

What I'd like to know is if anyone can think of a story that my proposed set of rules does not make possible at current (except maybe that of one god devouring another, which I'm perfectly fine to live without and have no intention of handling).


In addition, I'd like to compare notes, so if anyone knows of another attempt to homebrew game rules for deities, I'd be most happy to see them.

[rferries]

.
A few weeks ago I concocted this set of rules for attaining and advancing in divinity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18875745&postcount=32).
What I had in mind was to create a complete set of rules that would allow a narrator (a GM that is) to tell any story that has ever been told about a divine entity in RL myths/folklore (but not necessarily the cosmology, such as the Styx, the underworld etc - that's too wide an area to cover).

What I'd like to know is if anyone can think of a story that my proposed set of rules does not make possible at current (except maybe that of one god devouring another, which I'm perfectly fine to live without and have no intention of handling).


In addition, I'd like to compare notes, so if anyone knows of another attempt to homebrew game rules for deities, I'd be most happy to see them.

Alter Reality pretty much covers everything - you can create a cosmos by using it to mimic genesis, then use Create Species to populate the new reality. Everything else is small potatoes :)

[InvisibleBison]

Your rules preclude all stories in which the gods don't depend on the worship of mortals for their power, which is pretty much every story I can think of off the top of my head.

[nonsi]

Alter Reality pretty much covers everything - you can create a cosmos by using it to mimic genesis, then use Create Species to populate the new reality. Everything else is small potatoes :)

Well, not exactly.
1. Genesis spell was nixed in my overhaul, and Pocket Reality (the alternative salient divine ability that replaces Genesis) cannot be used indefinitely.
2. Both Pocket Reality and Create Species consume a deity's means of progressing in power, so you can't exactly spam them to your heart's content.

I view godhood as an evolved state of being, not ascension to the level of power that would allow you to create solar systems and galaxies.
Deities work withing reality, not above it.



Beyond that, basically I was talking about a lot more than just what a deity can do that mortals can't.
Stuff like:
- Gods that faded away due to loss of followers, and then reappeared when faith was reignited (e.g. Mishakal from Dragonlance).
- Gods that were imprisoned (e.g. Loki)
- Gods that gave up their divinity (don't have a proper example ATM)
- Gods that are slain and then return on their own after a period of time.
- Godhood via quests.
- Godhood via slaying a low-powered deity.
- Taking the souls of mortal and manipulate them into a new (or false) cycle of life in various ways that magic cannot accomplish.
- Absolute divination.
- Making a target inherently more/less powerful.
- Avatars and mortal identities
- Divine influence over nearby mortals
- Multiple religions that (unknowingly) actually target the same deity
- Etc.

stuff like that.

So, what I'm asking is: are there any scenarios/stories in the divine picture that I am missing?

[nonsi]

Your rules preclude all stories in which the gods don't depend on the worship of mortals for their power, which is pretty much every story I can think of off the top of my head.

There's no such thing. A god that doesn't depend upon the worship of mortals has no reason to interact with mortals on any level.
Example: If you happen to be a believer in the biblical story, then "Elohim" has taken false credit for "Creation" (something I'd be glad to sort out with you via private exchange if you wish, because it's completely offtopic, but the proof is in the bible).

[InvisibleBison]

There's no such thing. A god that doesn't depend upon the worship of mortals has no reason to interact with mortals on any level.


There are plenty of stories where the gods' power doesn't depend on the worship of mortals. In fact, the vast majority of fantasy fiction falls into that category. Your system, in which a god who is no longer worshiped stops being a god, can't emulate these stories.

And there are plenty of reasons for a god who doesn't depend on the worship of mortals to nevertheless interact with mortals. Maybe he wants to protect them from various bad things, or make sure they live moral lives. Maybe he's bored, and sees mortals as a sense of amusement.

[nonsi]

There are plenty of stories where the gods' power doesn't depend on the worship of mortals. In fact, the vast majority of fantasy fiction falls into that category. Your system, in which a god who is no longer worshiped stops being a god, can't emulate these stories.


Fantasy fiction usually makes little to no effort to explain the ecology of the divine system, even when the story writing is good, so they might as well tell the story of Mighty Mouse.
RL faith systems needed some kind of internal structural common sense about the mechanics of the divine, to endure for centuries.

So let's talk about "divine realities" with some kind of internal structural common sense.

Given the above, what you describe doesn’t coincide with the almighty demanding worship and punishing nonbelievers/forsakers. It doesn’t coincide with every RL belief system of a deity having specialized locations, traditional ceremonies and tools for worshiping.
The bible also has cases of wars among gods (vs. Egyptian gods, Philistine god, etc.). Why would they wage war upon one another via mortals if it wasn't for a competition over followers?






And there are plenty of reasons for a god who doesn't depend on the worship of mortals to nevertheless interact with mortals. Maybe he wants to protect them from various bad things, or make sure they live moral lives. Maybe he's bored, and sees mortals as a sense of amusement.


Then in what manner do such entities function as deities, as opposed to just being Uber-Epic characters with very long / infinite lifespan?
Meaning to ask: What elements of their existence categorize them as divine/deific beings? Not their scope of power, for sure.
Explanation: Some of the characters in the Marvel and DC worlds are not divine/deific beings, even though they're more powerful than most Asgardians (except maybe Hella).

[ChaoticHarmony]

Fantasy fiction usually makes little to no effort to explain the ecology of the divine system, even when the story writing is good, so they might as well tell the story of Mighty Mouse.
RL faith systems needed some kind of internal structural common sense about the mechanics of the divine, to endure for centuries.

So let's talk about "divine realities" with some kind of internal structural common sense.

Given the above, what you describe doesn’t coincide with the almighty demanding worship and punishing nonbelievers/forsakers. It doesn’t coincide with every RL belief system of a deity having specialized locations, traditional ceremonies and tools for worshiping.
The bible also has cases of wars among gods (vs. Egyptian gods, Philistine god, etc.). Why would they wage war upon one another via mortals if it wasn't for a competition over followers?


Then in what manner do such entities function as deities, as opposed to just being Uber-Epic characters with very long / infinite lifespan?
Meaning to ask: What elements of their existence categorize them as divine/deific beings? Not their scope of power, for sure.
Explanation: Some of the characters in the Marvel and DC worlds are not divine/deific beings, even though they're more powerful than most Asgardians (except maybe Hella).

I'm in agreement about the followers, but from a different perspective. A person could "become a god/dess" without actively trying to gain followers. The followers could simply come from the stories of their heroics/villainy. If a person demonstrates an exceptional ability that acts outside the considered norm of society, one of two things are bound to happen; either they are considered demonic, a witch and/or a freak, OR they begin to be revered. Add in traditional word of mouth(which is known to embellish more with every telling) and suddenly who have a new messiah or the proverbial Anti-Christ. This mindset only grows as the "god" does more great and terrible things. In a classic DnD setting where Powerful Wizards and Sorcerors commonly exist along side Warriors of exceptional ability, the benchmark to be considered a god is much higher than it would be in a setting where Magic is a rare sight.
Using your example: Thor and the Asgardians ARE gods in respect to Earth, because beings of their caliber were exceptionally rare and even unheard of when they first came to earth. In regards to the rest of the universe however, they are one species out of hundreds known capable of such feats, making them less than spectacular

[GreatWyrmGold]

It's common for divinity and at least some parts of immortality to be separated. Ra is an especially amusing example; he went senile, so people stopped taking him seriously, which lead to him losing worshipers and power. (He retired, but not before creating a lion-goddess that wiped out much of humanity.)
And, of course, many mythologies have various immortality-inducing things (usually fruit from magical trees), generally controlled by the gods and the source of their immortality. Mortals often try to gain access to them, so that they can also be immortal. (Sun Wukong is an especially notable example, due to eating the divine peaches of immortality and some alchemically-created pills of immortality, drinking heavenly booze of immortality, and also erasing his name from the records of the underworld and using some Taoist techniques which make him immortal. Yeah, he's quintuply-immortal, deal with it.)
On a related note, plenty of mythologies have gods which die. Sometimes this is permanent, sometimes it's temporary, occasionally it has little effect other than forcing them to move their stuff into the Afterlife. These sorts of stories obviously aren't supported by "You reform in a few weeks".
Plenty of myths tie some god to part of their domain. E.g, if you capture Death nothing can die (dammit, Sisyphus), if you kill the Sun everything dies (dammit, Coyolxauhqui).

Aside from that, the only things I can think of which aren't really covered by these rules are ruled out by either pre-existing D&D assumptions (e.g, gods need mortals for something) or its kitchen-sink nature. Which is really the problem...D&D isn't intended as a Generic Universal Fantasy Role-Playing System, it's intended as a roleplaying game set in a generic fantasy world.

Also, I'm pretty sure the life-restoring aspect of Life and Death is identical to Gift of Life, except it can't restore life to creatures that don't want to come back. Might want to give that a second editing pass.)

[nonsi]

And, of course, many mythologies have various immortality-inducing things (usually fruit from magical trees), generally controlled by the gods and the source of their immortality. Mortals often try to gain access to them, so that they can also be immortal. (Sun Wukong is an especially notable example, due to eating the divine peaches of immortality and some alchemically-created pills of immortality, drinking heavenly booze of immortality, and also erasing his name from the records of the underworld and using some Taoist techniques which make him immortal. Yeah, he's quintuply-immortal, deal with it.)

ATM, I don't see any way to incorporate Ambrosia/Nectar/Ichor into the rules in a manner that would have an internal logic.





On a related note, plenty of mythologies have gods which die. Sometimes this is permanent, sometimes it's temporary, occasionally it has little effect other than forcing them to move their stuff into the Afterlife. These sorts of stories obviously aren't supported by "You reform in a few weeks".

No, it doesn't. That's why I've added entrapment and the option to willingly give up divinity.





Plenty of myths tie some god to part of their domain. E.g, if you capture Death nothing can die (dammit, Sisyphus), if you kill the Sun everything dies (dammit, Coyolxauhqui).

Gods can tell their worshippers a lot of stuff. Not all of that has to be real, you know. Who said that god's can't lie, or inflate facts out of proportions?





Aside from that, the only things I can think of which aren't really covered by these rules are ruled out by either pre-existing D&D assumptions (e.g, gods need mortals for something) or its kitchen-sink nature. Which is really the problem...D&D isn't intended as a Generic Universal Fantasy Role-Playing System, it's intended as a roleplaying game set in a generic fantasy world.

Since nobody has ever discovered a Generic Universal Fantasy Role-Playing System so far, I'm not gonna lose sleep on that one.





Also, I'm pretty sure the life-restoring aspect of Life and Death is identical to Gift of Life, except it can't restore life to creatures that don't want to come back. Might want to give that a second editing pass.)

Y'know what – you're right. That's an element worth keeping. I'll change it back the next time I edit that post.

[GreatWyrmGold]

ATM, I don't see any way to incorporate Ambrosia/Nectar/Ichor into the rules in a manner that would have an internal logic.
The two possibilities that come to mind would be either rewriting how divinity works or adding a salient divine ability that lets them make something that grants immortality and/or other divine perks.
Come to think of it, adding more godly MacGuffins wouldn't be a bad idea if you can think of a good way to do that. Maybe let gods invest some of their divine abilities in some object for some kind of bonus, but they lose them if the object is taken?


Gods can tell their worshippers a lot of stuff. Not all of that has to be real, you know. Who said that god's can't lie, or inflate facts out of proportions?
That sort of semi-agnostic ambiguity is an entirely valid point of view (and one I often prefer when creating fantasy settings), but it seems at odds with "a complete set of rules that would allow a narrator (a GM that is) to tell any story that has ever been told about a divine entity in RL myths/folklore". Or rules about how gods work in general.

[nonsi]

The two possibilities that come to mind would be either rewriting how divinity works or adding a salient divine ability that lets them make something that grants immortality and/or other divine perks.
Come to think of it, adding more godly MacGuffins wouldn't be a bad idea if you can think of a good way to do that. Maybe let gods invest some of their divine abilities in some object for some kind of bonus, but they lose them if the object is taken?


Ok, so suppose there was a salient divine ability that allows a deity to create Ambrosia and Nectar (food and drink that grant limitless lifespan)...
I'd assume that creating such stuff (or enhancing earthly consumables with such property) would cost Credit (and a lot of it, if we assume divinity).
Given the above, what motivation could a deity have of making such an investment? (and spending the salient divine ability slot is no cheap toll on its own).

As for Ichor - it almost doesn't contradict with anything within my overhaul or 3e in general, except for truly incorporeal entities (such as my Radiant Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777505&postcount=27)'s capstone). I mean, if you have no material body at all, then you have no body fluids, so no Ichor.





That sort of semi-agnostic ambiguity is an entirely valid point of view (and one I often prefer when creating fantasy settings), but it seems at odds with "a complete set of rules that would allow a narrator (a GM that is) to tell any story that has ever been told about a divine entity in RL myths/folklore". Or rules about how gods work in general.


Not necessarily at odds. Interpretation of stories might help.
The book of Genesis doesn't claim that God had created reality. Regardless of if life on earth were created or brought from somewhere else, the story of creation details the chain of events as perceived by life on earth, assuming you metaphorically regard all life on earth as a single collective entity:
- Chaos: no sight
- Let there be light: approaching surface and the evolution of the eye
- Separation of sky and water: reaching the surface and feeling the air for the first time
- The creation of land: adapting to the land
- The creation of the sun, moon and stars: the clearing of the atmosphere and further evolution of sight
- birds and reptiles
- mammals
- primates and man.
So it's not exactly a lie, but a matter of how things are presented and the angle at which one looks at things.