Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Traab]

Previous thread found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544641-Death-Battle-III-Not-Even-Internally-Consistent)

I figured I would post this since we already went past page 50 to 51 and noone bit the bullet.

[Rater202]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

[Traab]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

Doubly so if after the next game comes out they have a rematch where he gets all his stuff and roflstomps pitt.

[Lemmy]

Sora x Pit doesn't feel like the kind of match where they'd be biased... But it does feel like the kind of match where they would get a bunch of facts or statistics completely wrong.

That said, if they are biased, I expect them to be biased in favor of Pit.

[Devonix]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

I find it incredibly unlikely that he only gets Kingdom Hearts 1 stuff. Remember. What they show in previews, and what they show in the animation for a character have no actual bearing on what feats or evidence is taken into account for a matchup.

[Rater202]

I find it incredibly unlikely that he only gets Kingdom Hearts 1 stuff. Remember. What they show in previews, and what they show in the animation for a character have no actual bearing on what feats or evidence is taken into account for a matchup.

Yeah, but if they never mention nor depict him using an ability from another game, it's safe to assume that it wasn't in their calculations.

And if he loses explicitly because he "lacked" an ability that he demonstrated in a game other than the first game(If only Sora had some way to draw pit to him and hold him in place, he might have won--Magnet in 2)

The fact that there isn't a single clip of Sora from any game but the first one is pretty damn concerning.

[Devonix]

Yeah, but if they never mention nor depict him using an ability from another game, it's safe to assume that it wasn't in their calculations.

And if he loses explicitly because he "lacked" an ability that he demonstrated in a game other than the first game(If only Sora had some way to draw pit to him and hold him in place, he might have won--Magnet in 2)

The fact that there isn't a single clip of Sora from any game but the first one is pretty damn concerning.

If it doesn't show up in the side window blurb that's the only time I actually have an issue.

[Delicious Taffy]

By KHII, Sora is incredibly strong. I'm currently replaying it, and there are multiple instances of him slapping around house-sized enemies. In the Pride Lands, he's transformed into a lion cub, and he still manages to out-muscle a creature with paws the size of a blue whale. Sure, Keyblade magic probably helps, but that's just a testament to how much punch that thing packs.

[McNum]

Yeah, but if they never mention nor depict him using an ability from another game, it's safe to assume that it wasn't in their calculations.

And if he loses explicitly because he "lacked" an ability that he demonstrated in a game other than the first game(If only Sora had some way to draw pit to him and hold him in place, he might have won--Magnet in 2)

The fact that there isn't a single clip of Sora from any game but the first one is pretty damn concerning.
We usually only get half of the character introductions in the previews, so who know if they have KH2 stuff in the other half. Would make sense if they do.

I still think it'll come down to Sora against Pit in the Great Sacred Treasure. And I honestly don't know if the Keyblade will be as powerful as usual against someone who is explicitly on the side of Light. If they get in a Light-off, Pit has a pretty big claim to be the Lighter one being the personal assistant, I mean angel of the Goddess of Light herself. Sora has traces of Darkness, Pit does not.

[Rater202]

We usually only get half of the character introductions in the previews, so who know if they have KH2 stuff in the other half. Would make sense if they do.

I still think it'll come down to Sora against Pit in the Great Sacred Treasure. And I honestly don't know if the Keyblade will be as powerful as usual against someone who is explicitly on the side of Light. If they get in a Light-off, Pit has a pretty big claim to be the Lighter one being the personal assistant, I mean angel of the Goddess of Light herself. Sora has traces of Darkness, Pit does not.

Uh. Sora's Keyblade is of the Realm of Light, but it's not exclusivly light--In fcact, the Realm of Light includes every Element but Darkness.

Like, the Keyblade isn't an anti-darkness weapon but rather a weapon meant to preserve balance(The Heartless don't naturally exist in the Realm of Light and until Xehanort did his experiments and screwed up everything forever, rarely managed to emigrate there. The Keyblades aren't for the Heartless, they just work on the Heartless)

If nothing else, Pitt would just be resistant/immune to pure Light element spells, and that's a very, very small part of Sora's magical arsenal.

[Rynjin]

So small, in fact...I don't think Sora actually has any light magic spells. Mickey has Pearl, and Minnie can SMITE THE NONBELIEVERS WITH HOOOOLY LIIIGHT but Sora has no equivalent I know of.

[Rater202]

So small, in fact...I don't think Sora actually has any light magic spells. Mickey has Pearl, and Minnie can SMITE THE NONBELIEVERS WITH HOOOOLY LIIIGHT but Sora has no equivalent I know of.

He has a couple of light spells in Dream Drop Distance, though the most prominent one is two hits, one of light and one of dark.

IRC, he's also using light during his Limit with Riku in II(Riku provides the darkness.)

Though actually, there's even been some speculation that Sora might actually end up going Pure Darkness in III: A running theme from two and Dream Drop is that the Darkness in Sora's heart is growing and the last couple of Bosses in Riku's path in DDD are in fact manifestations of Sora's Darkness. Riku's entire character arc as well as Terra's in BBS indicate that, if you have a lot of Darknesss, you need to embrace and master it or it will consume you.

Couple that with the fact that Kingdom HEarts has a big focu on Trinities and the dEstiny Islands Trio has one person who is pure light(Kairi) and one who uses Light and Darkness equally(Riku,) a pure darkness user would be needed to balance the Trinity.

And a trailer for KHIII has Xemnas state that sora needs to Embrace the Darkness to bring back Roxas and while Xemnas could be lying about that, he doesn't nesesarily have a reason to becuase Sora bringing back Roxas helps the 'Nort's plans regardless(Either a potential 13th Vessel or a potential guardian of Light.)

[Rynjin]

Alas, I have not played Dream Drop yet, I want to wait until I have a PS4 because the 3DS stick is so fragile. That does sound interesting though, and kinda lines up with Anti-Form.

[McNum]

Isn't Riku all Darkness now? That was the Riku side of Chain of Memories, if I remember right. His struggle with being both dark and good. Until in KH2 where it finally clicks for him that Light isn't Good and Dark isn't Evil. You can be both Dark and Good. Xehanort is especially frustrated with Riku since he'd make a fantastic host to possess... if Riku hadn't already mastered his own darkness and is practically impossible to influence at this point.

I'd see Sora as becoming the half and half in HK3. Which would be a great character arc for him. Learning to trust himself, all of himself, light and dark. Because he really needs to work on the whole defending against dark possession thing after DDD.

[Rater202]

Isn't Riku all Darkness now? That was the Riku side of Chain of Memories, if I remember right. His struggle with being both dark and good. Until in KH2 where it finally clicks for him that Light isn't Good and Dark isn't Evil. You can be both Dark and Good. Xehanort is especially frustrated with Riku since he'd make a fantastic host to possess... if Riku hadn't already mastered his own darkness and is practically impossible to influence at this point.

I'd see Sora as becoming the half and half in HK3. Which would be a great character arc for him. Learning to trust himself, all of himself, light and dark. Because he really needs to work on the whole defending against dark possession thing after DDD.

By the end of Dream Drop, Riku uses Darkness and light equally.

[Dragonus45]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

[Rater202]

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

Some people will refuse to believe something unless there are at least 2 data points.

[Forum Explorer]

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

They did bring up the gold sand stuff, and I think measured the durability of his shield from the explosion. I don't remember anything about non-sand jutsu (for that matter, I don't remember Gaara using non-sand jutsu)

[Rater202]

They did bring up the gold sand stuff, and I think measured the durability of his shield from the explosion. I don't remember anything about non-sand jutsu (for that matter, I don't remember Gaara using non-sand jutsu)

He has a Wind Chakra nature. He demonstrates wind style techniques a couple of times.

[Lemmy]

He has a Wind Chakra nature. He demonstrates wind style techniques a couple of times.
Are't like... All his sand techniques technically wind jutsu?

[Rater202]

Are't like... All his sand techniques technically wind jutsu?

Technically, they're not Justu at all.

As Shukaku's Jinchuriki, he's inherited Shukaku's Chakra Natures(Wind and Magnet) as well as Shukaku's unique abillities(psychokinetic manipulation of sand.)

Calling his Desert Coffin and Desert Burial techniques, let alone Jutsu as the term is used in the Ninjutsu/Genjutsu context is an embellishment, or else a technicallity at best. With the exception of his most advancec constructs(Sand clones, for example,) he's just thinking and the sand goes.

It's even less technique in Gaara's case because his personal supply of sand is infused with his own Chakra, the blood of his enemeis, and his mother's own soul acting in conjuction with Shukaku to protect him. Gaara rarely has to put that much actual thought or effort into manipulating the sand.

(In the series proper, Gaara only uses Magnet Release in conjunction with his sand manipulation to form seals, as cursed seals are the aplication of it that Shukaku uses)

[Mato]

Some people will refuse to believe something unless there are at least 2 data points.Goku vs Superman is always going to be a good one. They scripted quite a bit of bias in there that was recorded & animated. Like they deliberately use All-Star Superman's clips & scenes as factual data while arguing his power is infinite because he can just absorb more up sunlight. They also claimed Goku's maximum ki output is, based on Newton's third law, equal to the android bomb figure they made up since his ki & defense are the same thing but at 26:35 in the video they argue that Goku if blew up the sun he'd die so they just stop discussing it. But overlooking their contradictory arguments, what pushes the boundary is some of the other quarks in the video. Like they have a scene of a side-by-side comparison of strength, speed, and durability that only remains up on screen for about three seconds while Boomstick yells "holy **** not even close". But if you paused the video to read it they expressly noted Goku's value doesn't include his ki. "Boomstick" claims the argument is finally over after their battle and you should know what kind of response that draws. I say this is intentional, some people disagree (see last thread), because as you put it they need several examples.

But to move beyond that video, or even the rematch, Death Battle released a collaboration video with TeamFourStar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-S6oeIrhxU) under the guise that Takahata101 was going to have a counter argument to their video. But that video is just claims DB was wrong because one of them has a stupid face & car. And upon announcing Goku would win the room explodes into a storm of activity that includes people yelling unintelligible nonsense into a megaphone, eating paper, doing who knows what to a dolphin, as they start beating each other with bats and shooting each other. The camera then zooms in on Ben's smiling face. It doesn't take a genius to pick up on the subtext, they mocked the fanbase's reaction and intelligence and you arguing their Goku vs Supes video was all part of Ben's plan. And it worked, for obvious reasons (https://xkcd.com/386/). So to me it's undeniable that they will employ flawed arguments and victors for views, and arguing about they do not, as DB already pointed out, just helps spread awareness anyway. Like a good trolling, participation is all they need.


They did bring up the gold sand stuff, and I think measured the durability of his shield from the explosion. I don't remember anything about non-sand jutsu (for that matter, I don't remember Gaara using non-sand jutsu)Gaara can use wind, earth, and lightning which is additionally confirmed in the fourth data book. And in the novel illustrated by Masashi Kishimoto he can also use magnet release. He also appears to have some skill in yin release since he is able to use Ninjutsu based sleeping techniques. It is verbally acknowledged his taijutsu is also on par with Naruto's he just doesn't really use it and even while carrying his sand he can utilize the body flicker technique, which is a burst high speed movement like a flash step. He is also a formally trained ninja so he more then likely also mastered the more basic techniques, like substitutions which he has used before too.

[Rater202]

You wanna know the ironic thing? With Ultra Instinct Goku now has a stronger claim to being "infinite" than Superman's "lift a book of allgedly infinite pages."

Goku is explicitly stated by Whis, an expert of UI, to have achieved the form by surviving in a situation where it was literally impossible for him to survive and thus shattered every last one of the limits on his power.

Limitless power=Infinite Power

Even before he mastered the form it is both stated and demonstrated that Goku's power and skill rapidly scale upwards while in that form, and Jiren, who is basically "High-End Superman" in the "Practically Invinicble Superhero" department and explicitly the strongest pure mortal in the Multiverse, is really no match for Mastered UI Goku even after he pushes past his own limitations.

There, Superman V Goku has been discussed, this is officially a Death Battles thread.

[Dragonexx]

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

Truth be told, that's not inherently a bad thing to do, especially for large, complex or ongoing series, or series with multiple iterations. It's just, if that's what they're doing, they should be upfront about it. I've watched some other versus series that do this, and they specifically list the materials they're including.

For example, this video, around the 2:20 mark.


https://youtu.be/gDV2pAeI6co

[Forum Explorer]

He has a Wind Chakra nature. He demonstrates wind style techniques a couple of times.

I believe you, I just can't remember when he actually does so.

[Anteros]

You wanna know the ironic thing? With Ultra Instinct Goku now has a stronger claim to being "infinite" than Superman's "lift a book of allgedly infinite pages."

Goku is explicitly stated by Whis, an expert of UI, to have achieved the form by surviving in a situation where it was literally impossible for him to survive and thus shattered every last one of the limits on his power.

Limitless power=Infinite Power

Even before he mastered the form it is both stated and demonstrated that Goku's power and skill rapidly scale upwards while in that form, and Jiren, who is basically "High-End Superman" in the "Practically Invinicble Superhero" department and explicitly the strongest pure mortal in the Multiverse, is really no match for Mastered UI Goku even after he pushes past his own limitations.

There, Superman V Goku has been discussed, this is officially a Death Battles thread.

It's really strange to me how we're almost always on the same side of these debates and yet I don't think I've ever agreed with any of your arguments.

[Rater202]

It's really strange to me how we're almost always on the same side of these debates and yet I don't think I've ever agreed with any of your arguments.

Is it any sillier an argument than "Superman lifted a magical book that he and he alone said had infinity pages, therefore, he can lift infinity even though he's occasionally shown struggling or needing help to lift things with finite weight?"

I'm not saying that Goku's power is infinite, I'm just saying that if we're making up facts it's significantly less of a leap for Goku now.

[Durkoala]

Is it any sillier an argument than "Superman lifted a magical book that he and he alone said had infinity pages, therefore, he can lift infinity even though he's occasionally shown struggling or needing help to lift things with finite weight?"

I'm not saying that Goku's power is infinite, I'm just saying that if we're making up facts it's significantly less of a leap for Goku now.

Yes, because the argument wasn't "Superman has inifinite power", it was that both Goku and Superman have immeasurable strength, so a winner can't be picked by going through the numbers. Superman scraped a victory by a tongue-in-cheek judgement that his character concept and plots often revolve around him being the strongest person while Goku's are about him not (yet) being the strongest person in the universe.

[Lemmy]

Yes, because the argument wasn't "Superman has inifinite power", it was that both Goku and Superman have immeasurable strength, so a winner can't be picked by going through the numbers. Superman scraped a victory by a tongue-in-cheek judgement that his character concept and plots often revolve around him being the strongest person while Goku's are about him not (yet) being the strongest person in the universe.
Hah! If somewhere in DBZ it was explicitly stated that Goku has infinity whatever, I bet DB would find a way to cherry-pick and twist some random one-shot feat from Superman and then go "Nu-uh! Superman has infinity +1 strength!". That's just how obviously biased they were in that match.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Page 1 of the new thread, and it's already back to GvS. Classic.

[Lemmy]

Page 1 of the new thread, and it's already back to GvS. Classic.
We value tradition here, sir! :smallbiggrin:

(And to be fair, they haven't had another match yet since this thread started... So we might as well revisit the old ones. I played KH1 and 2 a long time ago, so I don't remember much about Sora... And know even less about Pit. And I care little about either, so the next match just isn't very interesting for me... But TBF, these days, I skip must matches and just watch the ones that sound really interesting, like Kenshiro x Jotaro).

Off the top of my head, I can remember 3 matches I strongly agree with the result: Zangief x Haggar, Samus x Boba Fett and Flash x Quicksilver... But then again, Zangief x Haggar was somewhat obvious and the other two were extremely obvious. I honestly don't recall any match whose result I agree that was actually somewhat fairly balanced and DB just made a good argument for it... I mean... There might be one, but I don't remember.

[Rater202]

Yes, because the argument wasn't "Superman has infinite power", it was that both Goku and Superman have immeasurable strength, so a winner can't be picked by going through the numbers. Superman scraped a victory by a tongue-in-cheek judgement that his character concept and plots often revolve around him being the strongest person while Goku's are about him not (yet) being the strongest person in the universe.

Considering That Goku's most recent feat involved him easily overpowering the strongest mortal in the Multiverse and surpassing the GoDs, I'm gonna say that that last point no-longer applies.

Also, the book of infinite page argument is the cornerstone of the "Superman has Infinite Strength" argument that the boys cited in the first video(Along with a bit of Insane Troll Logic, that he can grow infinitly strong by Absorbing Infinite Sunlight when there isn't Infinite Sunlight in the universe)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I honestly don't recall any match whose result I agree that was actually somewhat fairly balanced and DB just made a good argument for it... I mean... There might be one, but I don't remember.
Part of the problem here is that the more imbalanced a matchup is, the easier it is to call. As the balance of a matchup approaches 50/50, one's ability to conclusively declare a winner approaches zero.

It's the basic principle of fighting game matchups: with two well-matched characters, the end result depends on so many contextual elements that it's impossible to pick a clear winner. In a 5-5 matchup, it's a coin flip. I wish there were a good way to roll that into the premise, because the best part of a DB is never the part where you get a canonical "who would always win" result, it's the part where they both duke it out with all their abilities.

Which IMO is why the Pinkiepool DB is on a completely new tier of goodness. It wasn't about determining an absolute winner, it was about telling a great story in the fight.

[Lemmy]

Part of the problem here is that the more imbalanced a matchup is, the easier it is to call. As the balance of a matchup approaches 50/50, one's ability to conclusively declare a winner approaches zero.

It's the basic principle of fighting game matchups: with two well-matched characters, the end result depends on so many contextual elements that it's impossible to pick a clear winner. In a 5-5 matchup, it's a coin flip. I wish there were a good way to roll that into the premise, because the best part of a DB is never the part where you get a canonical "who would always win" result, it's the part where they both duke it out with all their abilities.

Which IMO is why the Pinkiepool DB is on a completely new tier of goodness. It wasn't about determining an absolute winner, it was about telling a great story in the fight.
I disagree. I like to see well-thought arguments for certain match-ups. None of the results are canonical, definitive or even particularly worthy or consideration, but seeing a well-reasoned argument is the interesting part, even if I disagree with the final conclusion... Which is why it really annoys me when match-ups are decided by obvious bias (Yang x Tifa was downright shameful) or lazy research...

The match-up itself is just filler... A gimmick to make the video more entertaining.

Aside from that... Matches don't have to be completely balanced, but they shouldn't be extremely obvious either. Flash x Quicksilver was ridiculous. Their powers are on completely different scales! It's like making a Hulk x Luke Kage match just because they both have super-strength.

[Rater202]

Aside from that... Matches don't have to be completely balanced, but they shouldn't be extremely obvious either. Flash x Quicksilver was ridiculous. Their powers are on completely different scales! It's like making a Hulk x Luke Kage match just because they both have super-strength.

Actually, Luke Cage is consistantly depicted as having strength at roughly equal to and growing at roughly the same rate as The Thing, who is explcitly stated to be the only one capable of potentially overpowering a completly out of control Hulk, so if Luke's in spitting distance then Cage and Hulk are a pretty decent matchup.

The problem comes more from the fact that Cage's superhuman durability tends to cap out at "just strong enough to not hurt myself doing this thing" with only his "bullet proof skinn with the toughness of tintanium-steel" being set in stone, witch a healing factor of "three times as fast as the average human" while the Hulk's toughness is in the "can tank multible explosions likes it's nothing" and has a healing factor comperable to Wolverine's.

Also, Hulk never gets tired, so if nothing else he'd win by attrition.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, Cage is pretty tough but there's a reason he's a B-tier hero at best while Hulk has titles like "Worldbreaker".

He's come a long way from his early days of "can lift a car if he strains himself" but not far enough to win a slugging match with Hulk or Thor.

[Traab]

I disagree. I like to see well-thought arguments for certain match-ups. None of the results are canonical, definitive or even particularly worthy or consideration, but seeing a well-reasoned argument is the interesting part, even if I disagree with the final conclusion... Which is why it really annoys me when match-ups are decided by obvious bias (Yang x Tifa was downright shameful) or lazy research...

The match-up itself is just filler... A gimmick to make the video more entertaining.

Aside from that... Matches don't have to be completely balanced, but they shouldn't be extremely obvious either. Flash x Quicksilver was ridiculous. Their powers are on completely different scales! It's like making a Hulk x Luke Kage match just because they both have super-strength.

Yeah the issue with the flash quicksilver match was, they really wanted to use a speedster, then realized that flash was so bat spit insanely overpowered compared to literally any other iteration of any speedster in any form of media that has ever existed that this was the best they could do. They could have ignored flash and tried to go with quicksilver and some other speedster, probably have fun with the roadrunner, or speedy gonzalez by using one off cartoon physics examples to show how they are equal, but ignoring flash would have been nuts. As for cage, dude beat up DOOM. You dont mess with luke cage. You ESPECIALLY dont back out when you owe the man money. He will straight up come to your house, give you the pimp hand, and keep it up till you pay what you owe. Legend states it this was the real reason why its always a doombot. Poor bastard is terrified of cage coming back and doom not being able to proclaim it wasnt really him getting slapped silly.

[tonberrian]

I mean, we could use Supes going arbitrarily close to the speed of light flying for any sort of strength argument. Pushing past lightspeed is, essentially, more than infinite strength/durability/energy/whatever.

[Blackhawk748]

We value tradition here, sir! :smallbiggrin:

(And to be fair, they haven't had another match yet since this thread started... So we might as well revisit the old ones. I played KH1 and 2 a long time ago, so I don't remember much about Sora... And know even less about Pit. And I care little about either, so the next match just isn't very interesting for me... But TBF, these days, I skip must matches and just watch the ones that sound really interesting, like Kenshiro x Jotaro).

Off the top of my head, I can remember 3 matches I strongly agree with the result: Zangief x Haggar, Samus x Boba Fett and Flash x Quicksilver... But then again, Zangief x Haggar was somewhat obvious and the other two were extremely obvious. I honestly don't recall any match whose result I agree that was actually somewhat fairly balanced and DB just made a good argument for it... I mean... There might be one, but I don't remember.

Guts vs Nightmare was ok and not super obvious until it was over.

[Seppl]

Considering That Goku's most recent feat involved him easily overpowering the strongest mortal in the Multiverse and surpassing the GoDs, I'm gonna say that that last point no-longer applies.

Also, the book of infinite page argument is the cornerstone of the "Superman has Infinite Strength" argument that the boys cited in the first video(Along with a bit of Insane Troll Logic, that he can grow infinitly strong by Absorbing Infinite Sunlight when there isn't Infinite Sunlight in the universe) Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

[Durkoala]

Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

Thank you for saying what I meant to say, in a much clearer way than I could.

[Ibrinar]

I mean, we could use Supes going arbitrarily close to the speed of light flying for any sort of strength argument. Pushing past lightspeed is, essentially, more than infinite strength/durability/energy/whatever.

And any wizard who conjures meal out of nothing (at least when it isn't summoning instead or formed out of nearby matter) has energy comparable to a big nuke since E=mc²!

[Rater202]

Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on a screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

The infinite pages aren't literally impossible because it's a magic book that can't possibly weigh infinity or it would collapse into a black hole. Also it's literally only Superman's word that it has Infinte Pages.

also, if you look at Goku's calculated numbers... Okay, ignoring that they chose a point where Goku was pretty low on the "planetary-level scale"(Snake way? Seriously?) for their base calcs, they did kind of make a huge math error.

Specifically, hen calculating Goku's multipliers, they once divided where they should have multiplied and they didn't catch it by Superman v Goku 2. Strictly speaking, that wouldn't have changed the outcome using DBs calcs... But I disagree with the Gravity Method in the first place.

This video gives a quick calc based on known power levels and the feats of people at know power levels including the snake way fly speed that DB uses for the gravity calc. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G46x-VhWFJY) I do have a problem with him throwing out Superman surviving a singular Supernova based entirely on the strength calcs he did for Clark, though. and he didn't even do durability calcs for either Goku or Superman.

Of course, that's all irrelevant because Death Battles used GT in their composite Goku(and GT treats all of the movies as canon) and cited Cooler as an example of Goku trying to defeat people by throwing them into the sun, meaning that Movies are in, and if the Movies are in than Goku was several times the power of a confirmed casual Galaxy Buster the first time he ever went Super Saiyan which puts Goku well above the planetary power scale, at the top tier of the Galalxy Scale if not the universal scale before he even meets Lord Beerus.

[Lemmy]

Guts vs Nightmare was ok and not super obvious until it was over.
Honestly... I didn't even remember that one. In fact, now that you mentioned it, I remember watching it, but don't remember anything about it.

[Rater202]

Oh... Death battles rules is that any and all moral or ethical compunctions that would prevent the characters from killing their opponent are removed. This is how they justify Batman and Superman and the like being okay with fights to the death.

They removed Superman's code against killing--depicting him as putting Goku down in cold blood in the second one--but didn't remove Goku's desire for a fair fight and preferance for fighting the same person over and over again--in the actual showdown of part one, they had Goku destroy a rock of Kryptonite, but if this was Goku going for the kill without his moral compuntions he'd have just taken the shot and killed Clark while he was vulnerble.

[Keltest]

Oh... Death battles rules is that any and all moral or ethical compunctions that would prevent the characters from killing their opponent are removed. This is how they justify Batman and Superman and the like being okay with fights to the death.

They removed Superman's code against killing--depicting him as putting Goku down in cold blood in the second one--but didn't remove Goku's desire for a fair fight and preferance for fighting the same person over and over again--in the actual showdown of part one, they had Goku destroy a rock of Kryptonite, but if this was Goku going for the kill without his moral compuntions he'd have just taken the shot and killed Clark while he was vulnerble.

Goku's desire for a "fair" fight isn't a moral compunction though, he's just a maniac who likes to challenge himself. He will absolutely abandon that principal when theres more on the line than himself.

[Traab]

Oh... Death battles rules is that any and all moral or ethical compunctions that would prevent the characters from killing their opponent are removed. This is how they justify Batman and Superman and the like being okay with fights to the death.

They removed Superman's code against killing--depicting him as putting Goku down in cold blood in the second one--but didn't remove Goku's desire for a fair fight and preferance for fighting the same person over and over again--in the actual showdown of part one, they had Goku destroy a rock of Kryptonite, but if this was Goku going for the kill without his moral compuntions he'd have just taken the shot and killed Clark while he was vulnerble.

The argument there is, they only negate influences that would stop them from trying to kill. The basic gist being, "Pretty much no hero kills, therefore we have to say they are going for the kill or else virtually no death battle ends with a win unless a villain is involved" Its literally handwaving the no kill rule away and nothing else. Thats the only part of their personality effected. So if goku acts a certain way, then he acts that way in a death battle, unless it includes not being willing to kill. Its like saying the doom/vader fight was stupid because doom used a bot to start things off with instead of going right for the full power kill. Or really, ANY fight where there are power levels and the character doesnt start at peak.

[Lemmy]

Intentionally or not, you are severely misrepresenting the argument of the Superman vs Goku battle. At no point was the argument made that infinity > everything else, therefore Superman wins. The actual argument is twofold:
1. Looking at the numbers of feats demonstrated on screen, Superman wins by a landslide. This does not include the book of infinite pages! This stems strictly from all those times that Superman does strength feats on interplanetary, stellar, or even galactic scale, whereas Goku (at the time) did at most planetary stuff on screen. Even applying all his power multipliers he did not come close to Superman's numbers but was off by many orders of magnitude!
2. The second line of reasoning was that those numbers are not everything and instead asked the question, how these characters approach a challenge. This is where the infinite pages or hearing a whistle from Vega come in: These things are literally impossible, yet Superman does them anyways! Because with him the question is never "can he do it?" (The answer would always be yes) but it is always about whether he does it or how it affects him. Yes, for some reason he sometimes gets defeated by an insane clown but if he really wants to or needs to, Superman is literally able to do anything the job requires. Contrast this with Goku who has very clear limits to what he can and cannot do and the story is always about him expanding those limits. Clearly, the guy who can do anything has a tremendous advantage in a Death Battle over the guy who has actual limits to what he can do, because DB is not about IF a character will do something but about WHAT a contestant can do.

This is the reasoning that was presented in Death battle. Superman wins by both pure numbers and by the limits implied by looking at the stories. You are welcome to argue any of those points. Misrepresenting the original argument, even calling it insane troll logic, while attacking the numbers behind the book feat when that feat did not even count for any numbers in the original argument, does not do you nor your position any favour.

1- Except... Not. Goku is seen defeating enemies clearly able to destroy galaxies. As much as people claim "Cell was just bragging about about being a solar planet buster", it's completely consistent with the type of power scaling seen in all of DBZ. Not to mention that characters simply don't lie about what they can do (other than "I can defeat that guy!" and even then, they're usually just mistaken due to arrogance and overconfidence). If Vegeta at the Saiyan arc could destroy planets (and he could), then it makes perfect sense for Cell to be able to destroy a solar system. And beating opponents that shrug off planet-busting attacks doesn't count... Why exactly?

The only way the numbers calculated tell Goku is "orders of magnitude below Superman" is by using DB's cherry-picking and logic twists.

2- Hearing a whistle from Vega says more about the whistle and the writer's completely lack of understanding of basic physics than about Superman's ability. Besides, everything these characters do is impossible! Unless you know someone who can fly by virtue of just being that good in kung-fu. Goku moves so fast that he leaves "afterimages" that last seconds (and move). That's impossible, but he does it anyway. He creates copies of his own body out of nowhere. He teleports. He eats more than his body-weight in food in a breakfast. He turns into a giant ape. He sense's people life energy. He moves when time is stopped... etc.

All of that is impossible, but he does it anyway (and Superman can't do any of that, BTW, so he clearly can't do anything. And if we go by story logic, then mid-battle Goku should've awakened a more powerful form and beat the crap out of Superman).

[Rater202]

Also, if the argument is that Superman wins due to his narrative.

Superman is a nigh-invincible extraterrestrial being who, by virtue of his blood, has godlike powers and while he does, in fact, have some degree of martial arts training, it's mostly what he is rather than what he knows that makes him so powerful.

...*Cough Cough* King Piccolo. Piccolo junior. Vegeta. Freiza. The androids and Cell. Buu. Skipping Beerus because Goku didn't surpass him till later. Frieza again. Technically Goku Black and Zamasu but they kind of cheated. Kefla(explicitly sights being a fusion of two Saiyan prodigies for why she's so strong, "Hooray for being born a Saiyan!") By the end of Super at the very least Beerus and Belmod, if not all the GoDZ

If we generalize it down to beings who merely have a reputation for being invincible that is rarely challenged, we can add Hit and Jiren.

If we include GTs and the movies... Basically all of those villains ever forever.

All people who showed up at a point where Goku and company were no match, and Goku eventually defeated them anyway and, if he didn't surpass them then, he surpassed them, sometimes several times over, eventually.

Narratively speaking, Goku and crew eat people like Superman for breakfast.

If you're making a narrative argument for Goku versus Superman, Goku will just barely win over Superman, and then the next time they meet they'll be friends or at least allies while they're fighting against somebody stronger than both of them, and then within a few arcs Goku will be significantly more powerful that Superman unless Clark goes out of his way to keep up and even that's iffy.

Edit: Also, going from a feats perspective... In the Manga version of Dragon Ball Super, Goku is capable of using a technique called Hakai (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Hakai)(destruction) wherein he transforms his God Ki into pure entropic energy and utterly obliterates matter with no regard for its durability. As demonstrated by the GoDs, Hakai can kill even beings who are immortal or already dead and a being who is slain by Hakai is completely destroyed in both body and soul.

It failed to work on Merged Zamasu, but that's more because Zamasu was able to interrupt the attack before he'd been completely obliterated and, being immortal, didn't need to have the half of his upper body that he'd lost to live. Superman doesn't have that advantage.

[Keltest]

Also, if the argument is that Superman wins due to his narrative.

Superman is a nigh-invincible extraterrestrial being who, by virtue of his blood, has godlike powers and while he does, in fact, have some degree of martial arts training, it's mostly what he is rather than what he knows that makes him so powerful.

...*Cough Cough* King Piccolo. Piccolo junior. Vegeta. Freiza. The androids andCell. Buu. Skipping Beerus because Goku didn't surpass him till later. Frieza again. Technically Goku Black and Zamasu but they kind of cheated. Kefla(excplcitly sights being a fusion of two saiyan prodigies for why she's so strong "hooray for being born a saiyan!") By the end of Super at the very least Beerus and Belmod, if not

If we generalize it down to beings who merely have a reputation for being invincible that is rarely challenged, we can add Hit and Jiren.

If we include GTs and the movies... Basically all of those villains ever forever.

All people who showed up at a point where Goku and company were no match, and Goku eventually defeated them anyway and, if he didn't surpass them then, he surpassed them, sometimes several times over, eventually.

Narrativly speaking, Goku and crew eat people like Superman for breakfast.

If you're making a narrative argument for Goku versus Superman, Goku will just barely win over Superman, and then the next time they meet they're be frineds or at least allies while they're fighting against somebody stronger than both of them, and then within a few arcs Goku will be significantly more powerful that Superman unless Clark goes out of his way to keep up and even that's iffy.

The thing is, Piccolo, or Vageeta, or Freeza, or whoever aren't in this fight. Their narratives don't matter. Youre basically declaring that Goku's narrative wins out because it just does. That's not at all compelling.

[JNAProductions]

The thing is, Piccolo, or Vageeta, or Freeza, or whoever aren't in this fight. Their narratives don't matter. Youre basically declaring that Goku's narrative wins out because it just does. That's not at all compelling.

As compared to "Superman's narrative wins because it just does"?

In a Superman story, Supes wins because he's the best.

In a DB story, Goku wins because he quickly BECOMES the best.

Which narrative takes precedent?

[Rater202]

The thing is, Piccolo, or Vageeta, or Freeza, or whoever aren't in this fight. Their narratives don't matter. Youre basically declaring that Goku's narrative wins out because it just does. That's not at all compelling.

And death-battles is arguing that Superman's narrative of being an invincible alien being wins out because it just does, even though Goku's narrative is "defeat the invincible alien."

Also, you missed my edit where I also give a non-narrative reason for why Goku can, as of now, defeat Superman.

[Anteros]

As compared to "Superman's narrative wins because it just does"?

In a Superman story, Supes wins because he's the best.

In a DB story, Goku wins because he quickly BECOMES the best.

Which narrative takes precedent?

Apparently Superman's according to Death Battle and a good number of the people in this thread.

Maybe we should have Superman vs Guts since Guts only won his fight based on the logic that "sure he's outmatched...but Guts always wins when he's outmatched! We only ignore plot armor when it's convenient!"

[Keltest]

As compared to "Superman's narrative wins because it just does"?

In a Superman story, Supes wins because he's the best.

In a DB story, Goku wins because he quickly BECOMES the best.

Which narrative takes precedent?

Superman's, because starting off in a winning state trumps moving into a winning state over time. If the game is "whoever attacks first wins", the man faster on the draw will win.

[JNAProductions]

Now, I'm not keeping up with Super...

But didn't someone say Ultra Instinct lets Goku basically power up as needed mid-combat? Like training on steroids?

And, hell, Goku beat Frieza (the invincible alien) first time he met him. He had trained his butt off beforehand, sure, but he didn't meet Frieza, lose, train, and then win-he just won. I mean, took Krillin dying, but hey.

[Rater202]

Superman's, because starting off in a winning state trumps moving into a winning state over time. If the game is "whoever attacks first wins", the man faster on the draw will win.

Supemran's narrative state is "invincible"

goku's narrative state is "I don't care that it's literally impossible for me to beat you because you're invincible, I'm gonna do it anyway!"

Goku's narrative would take precedent over Superman's simply because Superman's narrative role is shared by the antagonists in goku's stories.

Also, Hakai. Superman doesn't have a defense against godly magic what completely obliterates both body and soul.

[Kitten Champion]

The argument there is, they only negate influences that would stop them from trying to kill. The basic gist being, "Pretty much no hero kills, therefore we have to say they are going for the kill or else virtually no death battle ends with a win unless a villain is involved" Its literally handwaving the no kill rule away and nothing else. Thats the only part of their personality effected. So if goku acts a certain way, then he acts that way in a death battle, unless it includes not being willing to kill. Its like saying the doom/vader fight was stupid because doom used a bot to start things off with instead of going right for the full power kill. Or really, ANY fight where there are power levels and the character doesnt start at peak.

That's pretty... sketchy to me. They're very inconsistent in considering the deeper character traits of their combatants even when it would meaningfully determine how they'd approach the fight.

For instance, Beast, a categorical genius who's the peer of the like of Reed Richards and Tony Stark... pretty much just growls and punches/swipes a lot in his Death Battle. While I won't claim DB got his fight with Goliath "wrong", but it did rather ignore a significant aspect of Dr. Henry McCoy's character for the sake of... I don't know, appearing unbiased by giving him too much freedom?

Or Gaara, an exceptionally cautious and restrained character - that contrasts completely with Naruto - who uses his techniques to maintain his distance and evaluate his enemies before methodically engaging, and went through a fairly long character arc... just kind of throws sand around dumbly while spouting cringe-worthy dialogue in his Death Battle.

Point being, either character matters or it doesn't.

[Rater202]

But didn't someone say Ultra Instinct lets Goku basically power up as needed mid-combat? Like training on steroids?

Ultra instinct is a state of being that can only assume by the most masterful of martial artists wearing one's skill reaches a point where it trancends instinct and reflexes--the most accurate translation of the original Japanese characters it's written with would be "The art of the body moving on it's own."

Simply put, once someone has mastered Ultra instinct, they don't have to perceive or think while in combat, they just sort of fight perfectly automatically and will automatically and instantly adapt in both power and skill to fight any opponent.

In the initial level, If it is even remotely possible that you could have seen an attack coming, your body will automatically and perfectly move to counter, block, dodge, parry, or negate the attack as though you had.(However, it won't protect you from things that you couldn't have reacted to in time, such as Goku biting Whis while grappling, nor is the understanding of the environment perfect as while Whis was able to perfectly avoid Goku and Vegeta while training them, his passive UI dind't prevent him from stepping in poop the second the fight was over)

Once UI is MAstered, the same applies to making perfect attacks.

Goku enters Ultra Instinct through a transformation, which happens automatically when he's pushed past his limits and, per Whis, an expert, Goku shatters all of the limitations on his own power while in this state, and even in it's initial, unmastered State, Goku's power is both stated and demonstrated to skyrocket while fighting opponents who were of a much greater power than he was right before he entered that state(Some of which is retained when he reverts to his base form). The transformation also grants him a power multiplyer greater than 20 times Super Saiyan Blue, with the mastered version being even greater still.

[Blackhawk748]

Ultra instinct is a state of being that can only assume by the most masterful of martial artists wearing one's skill reaches a point where it trancends instinct and reflexes--the most accurate translation of the original Japanese characters it's written with would be "The art of the body moving on it's own."

Simply put, once someone has mastered Ultra instinct, they don't have to perceive or think while in combat, they just sort of fight perfectly automatically and will automatically and instantly adapt in both power and skill to fight any opponent.

To simplify this even more (if you understand Exalted) its basically Perfect Offense and Perfect Defense

[Anteros]

I don't believe that adapting in skill and power is a confirmed aspect of Ultra Instinct. I do believe that it simply allows a fighter to fight to the absolute best of their ability, and always make the correct move for any given situation without thinking. It should still be possible to overcome it given a large enough difference in power.

It's my understanding that the other interpretation where the form grants unlimited power is based off a few vague statements about "breaking limits" or whatnot...which I don't find to be sufficient evidence to support the claims.

The whole narrative argument is pointless and both sides' arguments are similarly (in)valid. That's why we normally ignore it for the sake of these discussions. Except DB didn't for this particular battle for some reason.

[Rater202]

I don't believe that adapting in skill and power is a confirmed aspect of Ultra Instinct. I do believe that it simply allows a fighter to fight to the absolute best of their ability, and always make the correct move for any given situation without thinking. It should still be possible to overcome it given a large enough difference in power.

If you actually watch the fights and pay close enough attention, Goku noticibly improves both while fighting Jiren the first time he uses it and Kefla the second time he uses it.

The true example, however,r comes after Goku masters Ultra Instinct while fighting Full Power Jiren.

Immediately upon entering the form again, she shoots up well past Jiren's full power--eventually, Jiren's rage lets him push past his own limitations and gain an unknown but massive increase in power, that gives him the uperhand against Goku and manhandle him for a bit... And then Goku instnatly shoots past Jiren again. This one is more questionable, but when Jiren tried to kill Goku's friends in the stands to proof a philosopshical poitn, Goku's power seems to shoot up again(though that could just be Goku taking the kiddy gloves off or getting a temporary rage boost) and he proceeds to beat the ever loving [Censor Bleep] out of Jiren, leaving Jiren at a fraction of the power he had before and emotionally broken. Goku had him dead to rights and would have won the tournement then and there if he'd had enough stamina to maintain UI for just one more second.

(For the record, Frieza, who was nowhere near Jiren's power when Jiren was only using his natural strength without any Ki, was able to manhandled Jiren when Goku was done with him and even after a pep talk restors Jiren's resolve, he's clearly nowhere near the power he had at the begining of the tournment. And if Any f Goku's enemies or rivals fills the same narrative role, the best, the invicible, the ace, as Superman, it's Jiren.)

[Devonix]

To simplify this even more (if you understand Exalted) its basically Perfect Offense and Perfect Defense

AKA the thing Goku was supposed to have mastered way back before the Red ribbon Army. Unfortunately Toryama found it too difficult to write a character with that ability so Goku forgot it.

[Rater202]

AKA the thing Goku was supposed to have mastered way back before the Red ribbon Army. Unfortunately Toryama found it too difficult to write a character with that ability so Goku forgot it.

Eh... What Goku supposnedly mastered back then was Mushin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)). Basically, a medtive state and also generally considered to be a real thing.

Ultra Instinct is more the very concept of that exaggerated to the most extreme is could conceivably be.

[Devonix]

Eh... What Goku supposnedly mastered back then was Mushin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin_(mental_state)). Basically, a medtive state and also generally considered to be a real thing.

Ultra Instinct is more the very concept of that exaggerated to the most extreme is could conceivably be.

My point is that this is very similar to a thing he was supposed to have mastered long ago but then the series seemed to ignore. And now it's likely they'll do the exact same thing with UI

[Rater202]

My point is that this is very similar to a thing he was supposed to have mastered long ago but then the series seemed to ignore. And now it's likely they'll do the exact same thing with UI

Eh, UI's a transformation and visually distinctive. It'll be a while before it's irrelevant, and that's assuming that Dragon Ball comes back a s along term series again.

What's most likely is that Goku will keep training until he gains the ability to use UI at will, and then he'll train to master the transformation that grants him UI and remove it's fdraw backs(massive stamina drain and rough on the body) and then maybe he'll find away to use UI and Super Saiyan(or Supersaiyan God, or Kaioken) at the same time, and then all three, and then maybe we'll get an unrelated state of being that's superior to UI in every way.

Unless Goku gets a oneshot form in the movie coming out in December.

[Devonix]

Eh, UI's a transformation and visually distinctive. It'll be a while before it's irrelevant, and that's assuming that Dragon Ball comes back a s along term series again.

What's most likely is that Goku will keep training until he gains the ability to use UI at will, and then he'll train to master the transformation that grants him UI and remove it's fdraw backs(massive stamina drain and rough on the body) and then maybe he'll find away to use UI and Super Saiyan(or Supersaiyan God, or Kaioken) at the same time, and then all three, and then maybe we'll get an unrelated state of being that's superior to UI in every way.

Unless Goku gets a oneshot form in the movie coming out in December.

It's moreso that if Goku has the ability to instinctively dodge stuff. It wouldn't fit with the way Dragon Ball fights are choreographed. It worked as this amazing thing that the character does for one part of a story arc. But doesn't fit the way fights happen in the series and they'd have to fundimentally change the show to have it stick around.

[Rater202]

It's moreso that if Goku has the ability to instinctively dodge stuff. It wouldn't fit with the way Dragon Ball fights are choreographed. It worked as this amazing thing that the character does for one part of a story arc. But doesn't fit the way fights happen in the series and they'd have to fundimentally change the show to have it stick around.

I think that's kind of why it ended up something that Goku can only do where he's pushed past all of his limits rather than something he can do at will.

Or Power Creep could set in and he ends up fighting people who also have UI, making them cancel out, or else who are so far beyond his base power that not even the rapid power scaling of UI is enough for him to get to their level before they whoop him meaning he still has to train.

Though we're kind of getting beyond the scope of the argument. Does UI give Goku a chance at beating Superman? I'd argue that, even if Goku didn't have a chance before if pushed to his limitless UI state he'd probably win.

[Devonix]

I think that's kind of why it ended up something that Goku can only do where he's pushed past all of his limits rather than something he can do at will.

Or Power Creep could set in and he ends up fighting people who also have UI, making them cancel out, or else who are so far beyond his base power that not even the rapid power scaling of UI is enough for him to get to their level before they whoop him meaning he still has to train.

Though we're kind of getting beyond the scope of the argument. Does UI give Goku a chance at beating Superman? I'd argue that, even if Goku didn't have a chance before if pushed to his limitless UI state he'd probably win.

Oh this is my discussion. I'm not touching the Goku/Superman discussion anymore. It's more fun talking about how abilities affect storytelling. Or talking about other matchups than the goku/superman nonsense again.

[Rater202]

Okay, let's talk something else, hypothetical matchups.

DC's Icon vs Marvels.

Superman vs Peak Spider-Man.

Superman is stronger, but all Spider-Persons in the Marvel Multiverse have been magic since a storyline from 2001 retconed the reason why the radioactive spider-bite gave Peter Parker superpowers instead of cancer.

At his peak(Which is to say, after The Other: Evolve or Die and Prior to One More Day), Peter Parker had Superhuman strength sufficient to lift 20 imperial tons overhead with corresponding increases to his other atributes over his base, could regenerate at a level comperable to Wolverine, could control and comuncate with spiders, use his sticekm-powers via everypart of his body, see in the dark, was fully clairvoyant though his spider-sense, had retractable stingers in his wrists, with a length comperable to wolverine's claws, filled with a paralytic venom that deployed when he was angry or int he presense of supernatural totemistic beings, and was the Avatar of a Totemistic Arachnomoprhic Deity that held domain of Mutation and Evolution.

(Some would argue that Peak Spider-Man was during the storyline where he had the powers of Captian Universe, but that's a powerset that's innately temporary.)

[tonberrian]

Okay, let's talk something else, hypothetical matchups.

DC's Icon vs Marvels.

Superman vs Peak Spider-Man.

Superman is stronger, but all Spider-Persons in the Marvel Multiverse have been magic since a storyline from 2001 retconed the reason why the radioactive spider-bite gave Peter Parker superpowers instead of cancer.

At his peak(Which is to say, after The Other: Evolve or Die and Prior to One More Day), Peter Parker had Superhuman strength sufficient to lift 20 imperial tons overhead with corresponding increases to his other atributes over his base, could regenerate at a level comperable to Wolverine, could control and comuncate with spiders, use his sticekm-powers via everypart of his body, see in the dark, was fully clairvoyant though his spider-sense, had retractable stingers in his wrists, with a length comperable to wolverine's claws, filled with a paralytic venom that deployed when he was angry or int he presense of supernatural totemistic beings, and was the Avatar of a Totemistic Arachnomoprhic Deity that held domain of Mutation and Evolution.

(Some would argue that Peak Spider-Man was during the storyline where he had the powers of Captian Universe, but that's a powerset that's innately temporary.)

Like, none of that is actually magicking Superman in any way, so Supes wins. I think even Justice League Unlimited Supes wins, and that's like the lowest Superman on the totem pole - it doesn't matter how clairvoyant you are if you just aren't fast enough to dodge at excessive mach speeds.

[Rater202]

Like, none of that is actually magicking Superman in any way

Death battles ruled that Goku's power pole hurt Superman, so for our purposes just being magic should be enough to hurt him.

[Lemmy]

Death battles ruled that Goku's power pole hurt Superman, so for our purposes just being magic should be enough to hurt him.
Goku's staff is actually magic, though... Spider-man (IIRC) has non-magic powers, obtained from a non-magic source that was guided by a magic entity/force.

Or it used to be something like that, anyway... I haven't kept up with Spider-man in the last 2 years or so, so they might have retconned it all even more and made it more magical. I don't know.

But it doesn't matter. Superman could just swing a giant steel beam at mach-5 or something and squash Spider-man. No way Spider-man can evade or resist Superman's attacks.

[Keltest]

Death battles ruled that Goku's power pole hurt Superman, so for our purposes just being magic should be enough to hurt him.

Superman's vulnerability to magic is frequently misstated. Its less of a specific vulnerability and more of a lack of invulnerability. A magic ability would affect him like it would anybody else. If that means it punches him with the force of a mac truck, then he probably isn't going to be too badly affected by it, because that's just not a lot of force to Superman. If that means he is frozen in place or blinded or turned to stone or something, then it would work.

[Dragonus45]

Ultra instinct is a state of being that can only assume by the most masterful of martial artists wearing one's skill reaches a point where it trancends instinct and reflexes--the most accurate translation of the original Japanese characters it's written with would be "The art of the body moving on it's own."

Simply put, once someone has mastered Ultra instinct, they don't have to perceive or think while in combat, they just sort of fight perfectly automatically and will automatically and instantly adapt in both power and skill to fight any opponent.


And yet sheer power was still enough to stand equal with it.

[Rater202]

Goku's staff is actually magic, though... Spider-man (IIRC) has non-magic powers, obtained from a non-magic source that was guided by a magic entity/force...

Well... It was something like that, but I haven't kept up with Spider-man in the last 2 years or so, so they might have retconned it all even more and made it more magical. I don't know.

Amazing Spider-Man #795 establishes that Spider-Man's very touch has supernatural properties(According to Loki, a spider-totems very touch is fatal to a race of demonic wasps and that holds up in combat. He also negates the spell holding them in a jar by touching said jar), and that's when he's not the Avatar of a Totemistic God.

Also, for the purposes of this conversation, I'm very deliberately not arguing Death Battles' depiction of Superman, and DB depicted Superman getting hurt by a weapon wielded by somoene who, according to them, otherwise didn't stand a chance just becuase the stick he was being it with was magic.

@^ Briefly stand Equal to it. Goku rapidly increased in power and shot way past Jiren after mastering it.

[Lemmy]

Amazing Spider-Man #795 establishes that Spider-Man's very touch has supernatural properties(According to Loki, a spider-totems very touch is fatal to a race of demonic wasps and that holds up in combat. He also negates the spell holding them in a jar by touching said jar), and that's when he's not the Avatar of a Totemistic God.Are you talking about Morlun & family? I kinda had forgotten about him... IIRC, the first time he appears, Spider-man actually defeats him by making himself more radioactive, which poisons Morlun every time they touch each other.

[Rater202]

Are you talking about Morlun & family? I kinda had forgotten about him... IIRC, the first time he appears, Spider-man actually defeats him by making himself more radioactive, which poisons Morlun every time they touch each other.

Morlun's appearance was the storyline that established the Totem thing, but no. Not the inheritors. The Inheritors are sort of Transdimensional Vampires.

I'm talkingactual giant Demon Wasps. (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Fire-Wasps_of_the_Faltine)

If it's needed, I can explain why Spider-Man is magic, but it'd um... It'd take a bit so I'll do it if someone asks.

[Delicious Taffy]

I'm always down for Spidey facts. It's been a minute since I read some lore, so the specifics of his magical nature are kinda dusty.

[Rater202]

I'm always down for Spidey facts. It's been a minute since I read some lore, so the specifics of his magical nature are kinda dusty.

Okay then.

First, there's the concept of a "Totem," which in the Superhuman context essentially refers to an entity that, literally or metaphorically combines the traits of a human being(or the equivelent, IE the anthropomorphic cartoon animals of Larval Earth,) and one or more of the other categories of being animal--Mamals, inscents and other arthropods, birds, reptiles, and so on. Doctor Conors is a reptile totem beucuase his DNA is combined with that of several reptiles, black Panther is a Panther Totem becuase, while he's not literally part Panther the spirtual aspects of the process by which one becomes the Panther associates the ritual with various panther deities(Infact, Morlun went after T'challa once.) the only cutoff is that you have to actually be Superhuman or at least directly enhanced by magic or mutation--cyborgs and power armor without any other modifications don't count.

Most of the time, it doesn't mean much if you're not an inheritor(who feed on life force and have to take it from multible types of beings, and the life force of totems is extra nutriscious becuase it metaphysically counts as both kinds even if the person is genetically human)

However, when it comes to Spider-totems, it gets a bit wonky. You see, the Marvel Multiverse is Spider-Web shaped, with each parrelel reality and alternate timeline being a strand of the greater whole. Walking across these strands are arachnomorphic totemistic deities who in turn weave new bits of reality.

These deities are also, themselves, called Spider-Totems, the though the term "Great Totem" is aplo used to refer to them and I'll be using that to avoid confusion from now on.

The existence of these Great Totems--particularly The Great Weaver, The Gatekeeper, The Bride, The Scion, and The Other, and the Great Web of Life and Destiny(Sort of a model of the Multiverse, changes to it affect the Multiverse and vice versa and it can be used to travel various tmelines) not only mean that there are a lot more ways to become a Spder-toem than any other variety and the mere fact that you've gained Spider-like powers means that, regardless of how you got them, you're automatically connected to the Great Web and through it the Spider-Gods(It is explicitly stated that if the Web were to be destroyed, it would become impossible for More Spider-Totems to be made. There's kind of a stable loop of cuase and effect here.)

Differant kinds of Totems fall under the perview of differant Spider-Gods--The Bride, for example, has dominion over Totems whose powers are caused either by random chance or through purly magical means. The Scion is implied to hold dominion over totems who inherited their power(It's Avatar is Benjy Parker, from the MC2 Universe) while the Other can be infered from it's comments, actions, and choice of Avatars to hold dominion over genetic mutation and natural evolution(Of note, one of it's potential Avatars before it settle on Peter/Kaine, depending on pre or post OMD, was an actual X-Gene Mutant.)

Great Totems often take Spider-Totems as Avatars, but just being a Spider-Totem makes you magic by defualt.

Note: This applies on a multiversal scale. As of Spider-Verse, a 2012 storyline, this applies to every version of every Spider-Person in the Marvel Multiverse, even retroactivly.90s Cartoon Spider-Man? He's magic. Life Action Japanese Spider-Man? Magic. Memetic 1960s jackass Spider-Man? Even he's magic.(The Meme was actually referenced in Web Warriors #1)

[Forum Explorer]

Okay, let's talk something else, hypothetical matchups.

DC's Icon vs Marvels.

Superman vs Peak Spider-Man.

Superman is stronger, but all Spider-Persons in the Marvel Multiverse have been magic since a storyline from 2001 retconed the reason why the radioactive spider-bite gave Peter Parker superpowers instead of cancer.

At his peak(Which is to say, after The Other: Evolve or Die and Prior to One More Day), Peter Parker had Superhuman strength sufficient to lift 20 imperial tons overhead with corresponding increases to his other atributes over his base, could regenerate at a level comperable to Wolverine, could control and comuncate with spiders, use his sticekm-powers via everypart of his body, see in the dark, was fully clairvoyant though his spider-sense, had retractable stingers in his wrists, with a length comperable to wolverine's claws, filled with a paralytic venom that deployed when he was angry or int he presense of supernatural totemistic beings, and was the Avatar of a Totemistic Arachnomoprhic Deity that held domain of Mutation and Evolution.

(Some would argue that Peak Spider-Man was during the storyline where he had the powers of Captian Universe, but that's a powerset that's innately temporary.)

Seems like a pretty easy win for Superman. I mean none of that really helps if Superman just picks Spidy up and throws him into the sun.

[Anteros]

And yet sheer power was still enough to stand equal with it.


When did that happen? Jiren got the snot beaten out of him and Goku didn't even break a sweat. He just couldn't control the form long enough to finish the job.


On Spider vs. Supes...they've fought several times before and it's always depicted as if Supes could squash Peter without breaking a sweat. The only time Spidey ever managed to put up a fight was when Superman was severely depowered by some sort of plot device I can't quite recall. I don't think whatever magical background he might have is enough to make the difference. Someone like Strange might have a shot, but Spidey would get crushed the second Superman decided to take things seriously.

[donpaul]

Are't like... All his sand techniques technically wind jutsu?

Even I thought this xD

[Rater202]

When did that happen? Jiren got the snot beaten out of him and Goku didn't even break a sweat. He just couldn't control the form long enough to finish the job.


On Spider vs. Supes...they've fought several times before and it's always depicted as if Supes could squash Peter without breaking a sweat. The only time Spidey ever managed to put up a fight was when Superman was severely depowered by some sort of plot device I can't quite recall. I don't think whatever magical background he might have is enough to make the difference. Someone like Strange might have a shot, but Spidey would get crushed the second Superman decided to take things seriously.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure those all predate the "he's magic" Retcon and for sure none of them had Spidey as The Other's Avatar.

[Traab]

Spiderman just doesnt have the stats to do anything to superman. In a real death battle, peak spiderman would go like this "FIG-/SPLURT!" "KO!"

[Doorhandle]

AKA the thing Goku was supposed to have mastered way back before the Red ribbon Army. Unfortunately Toryama found it too difficult to write a character with that ability so Goku forgot it.

To quote DBZ abridged, "No-one watched dragonball!"


Spiderman just doesnt have the stats to do anything to superman. In a real death battle, peak spiderman would go like this "FIG-/SPLURT!" "KO!"
I think I could see one way for him to win avoid insta-gibbing. For one series, spiderman was temporarily Captain Universe, with all the cosmic power that implies. (http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/2013/11/07/reader-request-month-the-cosmic-spider-man-saga/)

Not enough to let him win, but enough for a fun fight at least.

[Kitten Champion]

To quote DBZ abridged, "No-one watched dragonball!"


I think I could see one way for him to win avoid insta-gibbing. For one series, spiderman was temporarily Captain Universe, with all the cosmic power that implies. (http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/2013/11/07/reader-request-month-the-cosmic-spider-man-saga/)

Not enough to let him win, but enough for a fun fight at least.

I was thinking of mentioning that - given that's peak peak Spider-Man - but in the end that would really be Captain Universe versus Superman, just Captain Universe's host happens to also be Peter Parker in that scenario.

I don't know why we'd want Spider-Man v. Superman to be a thing, if Spider-Man ever really achieved that Kryptonian power level (as anything more than a complete one-off) it would completely undermine the whole core concept of the character as developed in the last five decades.

[Gandariel]

When did that happen? Jiren got the snot beaten out of him and Goku didn't even break a sweat. He just couldn't control the form long enough to finish the job.


The point is that it's clearly shown to be a quantitative difference, not qualitative.

There exists an amount of power that would beat it. Therefore it's just another multiplier, no matter what fancy fluff they give it.

And if it's just a multiplier, it could be x10 or x1000, it still wouldn't beat infinite.

Also, regarding Hakai, it's not an "entropy ball of soul destroying blah blah blah". It's just another generic energy ball with fancy fluff. Several characters have resisted or overpowered it by just being strong / exerting themselves enough. Again, quantitative difference, not qualitative.

[Lemmy]

The point is that it's clearly shown to be a quantitative difference, not qualitative.

There exists an amount of power that would beat it. Therefore it's just another multiplier, no matter what fancy fluff they give it.

And if it's just a multiplier, it could be x10 or x1000, it still wouldn't beat infinite.

Also, regarding Hakai, it's not an "entropy ball of soul destroying blah blah blah". It's just another generic energy ball with fancy fluff. Several characters have resisted or overpowered it by just being strong / exerting themselves enough. Again, quantitative difference, not qualitative.Doesn't matter because Superman's power is clearly NOT INFINITY, despite whatever non-sense DB claims.

And Hakai specifically erases stuff from existence. It's not just a energy attack. The fact that it can be resistes doesn't change what it does... Specially since it's clear that it isn't raw power alone that allows the character to resist the effects.

[Keltest]

Doesn't matter because Superman's power is clearly NOT INFINITY, despite whatever non-sense DB claims.

And Hakai specifically erases stuff from existence. It's not just a energy attack. The fact that it can be resistes doesn't change what it does... Specially since it's clear that it isn't raw power alone that allows the character to resist the effects.

The only reason ive seen stated in this thread for why Superman cant be infinitely powerful is that any of the demonstrations would have broken physics, which makes me wonder if the people making that claim are remotely familiar with either Superman comics or Dragonball.

[Devonix]

Still upset that they had Vegeta punch through a Hakai. Dammit guys you have this cool ability and technique. Something that would force your characters to think around it, use some interesting strategies to fight the opponent. But NOooooOO Just have your character be strong enough to ignore it.

[Lemmy]

The only reason ive seen stated in this thread for why Superman cant be infinitely powerful is that any of the demonstrations would have broken physics, which makes me wonder if the people making that claim are remotely familiar with either Superman comics or Dragonball.It would break physics... And be completely inconsistent with Superman's abilities as portrayed. Superman has failed to lift/break stuff before. He needed help to do it on several occasions too. He was overpowered by more powerful opponents a few times as well. None of that would happen if he had infinity strength. His strength is also explicitly stated to be fueled by sunlight... And there's nothing even close to infinity sunlight in the universe, much less in the little spam of time he lived under s yellow sun.

Besides, even if the book had infinity pages... It doesn't matter! It was a magic book! It could have infinity pages and yet only weigh 1 kg... It obviously didn't have infinity mass. If it did, even infinity strength wouldn't be able to lift it!

"Superman has infinity X" is so goddamn obviously false, it makes me wonder if anyone making that claim is even remotely familiar with any iteration of Superman.

[Rater202]

The point is that it's clearly shown to be a quantitative difference, not qualitative.

There exists an amount of power that would beat it. Therefore it's just another multiplier, no matter what fancy fluff they give it.

And if it's just a multiplier, it could be x10 or x1000, it still wouldn't beat infinite.

Also, regarding Hakai, it's not an "entropy ball of soul destroying blah blah blah". It's just another generic energy ball with fancy fluff. Several characters have resisted or overpowered it by just being strong / exerting themselves enough. Again, quantitative difference, not qualitative.
Except it's not just a Multiplyer. It's a Multiplyer that keeps getting bigger and a seemingl expoential rate.

Furthermore, The arguments for Superman being Ininifty are: The Book of incident pages incident, where Superman lifted a Magic Book that he and only he said had infinite pages. The fact that the book is magic means that even if it has infinite pages, it's actual weight can't be taken for granted. The fact that Superman is not an expert on the book and that DB and people in this thread have dsmissed the word of people from Dragon Ball on how strong Goku is even when they're more infomred of power than Superman is of the book means that we can't take Superman's word at face value.

If we're taking Superman's word on the book at face vavlue, than we have to take Elder Kai's word that Goku is a universes Buster who can make the entire multiverse tremble with his power(and that's before mastering UI) at face value, inhwhich cAse Goku is operating on a scale higher than any one individual Superman.

The other Arguments for Superman being infinite are that he can keep getting stronger by absorbing sunlight, but 1: There's a finite amount of Yellow Sunlight in the universe and you can't assume that Superman has ways of generating more sunlight on hand during the fight.2 It takes Superman time to absorb sunlight in quantities enough to increase his power unless he's activily sundipping and even that has a finite amount of power greater than what it gives him. 3: Going by All-Star Superman, there's an upper limit to how much yellow Sunlight his body can hold before it becames dangerous for him.

And the narrative Argument: "Goku's story is about becoming the best, but Superman is just automatically the best" 1: Isn't True, as there are several people in the DC Universe who are more powerful than Superman--Darkseid, Doomsday, I think Spectre, Wonder Woman and MArtian Manhunter are consistantly depicted as his equals, as is flipping Aquaman on a good day, in terms of physical strength. 2: Even if it was, Goku's narrative has consitantly been about him "beating the best" whenever it's not about him also "being the best" and currently Goku is the most powerful non-God fighter in the Multiverse so the narrative argument really doesn't apply.

Hakai: The fact that Beerus explicitly destroyed a ghost who had been utterly impervious to harm due to being aghost disagrees with you. As does the fact that Zamasu didn't leave a ghost behind despite the fact that normally, when you die in Otherworld you just sort of pop up where you died(See King Kai and Elder Kai.) Being able to resist it is a matter of having more Ki than is equivelent to the Destructive energy and having sufficient energy control. As it destroys souls and is a technique that can only be used by people with Godly Power, it is quite simply the most magical thing in Goku's arsenal and even if it's not, it ignores durabillity, affects body and soul, and Future Zamasu in the Manga seemed pretty damn sure it would ahve killed him and he was literally Immortal.
The only reason ive seen stated in this thread for why Superman cant be infinitely powerful is that any of the demonstrations would have broken physics, which makes me wonder if the people making that claim are remotely familiar with either Superman comics or Dragonball.And also that there's a finite amount of solar energy in the universe and that we only have Superman's world that he lifted Infinite pages and no evidence whatsoever that the book weighed infinity.

Still upset that they had Vegeta punch through a Hakai. Dammit guys you have this cool ability and technique. Something that would force your characters to think around it, use some interesting strategies to fight the opponent. But NOooooOO Just have your character be strong enough to ignore it.
Technically, Vegeta didn't punch through "Hakai" as that's a specific technique. He punched through the "destruction energy" of a newborn GoD.

It's the differance between being able to tank a laser blast and being able to tank a flashlight.

[Lemmy]

While I agree with you, Rater202, I believe you meant DC universe right there...

[Rater202]

While I agree with you, Rater202, I believe you meant DC universe right there...

I have no idea what you're talking about *shifty eyes*

Actually, Interesting Trivia, when Jack Kirby(who famously wrote for both Marvel and DCat various points) first created Darkseid and the other New Gods, he originally invisioned them as being inhabitants of the Marvel Universe who were vistiing the DC universe and that's why they traveled through the Boom Tubes.

Eventually, he was told, "no, no, pulling that off would be a nightmare change it."

[Devonix]

The attacks Vegeta punched through were explicitly toppo using a hakai. He says it multiple times.

[Rater202]

The attacks Vegeta punched through were explicitly toppo using a hakai. He says it multiple times.

Hakai is the Japanese word for "destruction." It was destruction energy, but it wasn't a proper Hakai(technique) because that's a specific aplication of the abillity.

Hand out, person just sort of dissolving bit by bit, that's Hakai. Otherwise, it's just an application of destruction energy.

[McNum]

And for the actual topic of the thread, Sora vs. Pit is out!


https://youtu.be/sP6zEprq1zs

In which Sora, who is not Superman, fights Pit, who is not Goku.

And Sora takes it. I'm not entirely sure I agree on having the Gummi Ship nullify the Great Sacred Treasure so neither is allowed. The Great Sacred Treasure is explicitly for combat, the Gummi Ship is a transport with weapons.
Hope you like zombies, because Frank West is fighting Leon Kennedy.

...eh, they can't all be interesting, I guess.

[Gandariel]

Except it's not just a Multiplyer. It's a Multiplyer that keeps getting bigger and a seemingl expoential rate.


It is still just a multiplier.

And regarding the rest of your post:

I'm not defending superman being infinite anything. All I'm saying is:

If superman is infinite, multiplying your stats by any finite number is pointless. UI is just a multiplier, despite the fluff. Therefore, it doesn't change the result.

Now, is superman infinite? I don't know and I don't care. Personally, I found Death Battle's closure nice and fair.

If they had Goku win by clinging to some sketchy calculation such as multiplying power levels people would just as easily find holes in it and point to examples of superman being stronger.
Honestly, both source materials are wildly inconsistent, and it's not like there will ever be an "objective" or "real" result. (Since those characters are, y'know, fictional)
Just accept the show for what it is and move on.

[Kato]

In which Sora, who is not Superman, fights Pit, who is not Goku.
[...]

Hope you like zombies, because Frank West is fighting Leon Kennedy.

...eh, they can't all be interesting, I guess.

Now you're talking crazy. There has only been one fight in DB, all others are hypothetical entities to prove why that fight's result was legitimate / nonsense...



I had no stakes in this but... my gut makes me think both the Hercules argument and the "cutting seven buildings" are stupid. Not because DB used them but because they exist in canon. I hate it when game designers decide to have their characters do stuff that's totally not needed to happen...
Oh well, I don't care.

Speaking of me not caring: Next match.



You know what I'd love? Another villain fight. Like Doom vs Vader. Maybe some true hellish entities, like Pennywise against Voldemort.

[Rater202]

Drive forms requiring Sora to combine with his friends is a Gameplay mechanic--presumbably for balance reasons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd_rOkBmnZ4)

Also, that LAser isn't exactly an attack.

I'm not disagreeing with their results, but the fight ending move should have been differant.

[Kitten Champion]

Hope you like zombies, because Frank West is fighting Leon Kennedy.

...eh, they can't all be interesting, I guess.

Really? Isn't Leon Kennedy around a decade younger than Frank West, and an agent for an elite American anti-bioterrorism task force? I mean, Frank could win - particularly if you take video game mechanics literally - but I would say it's unlikely.

I would've done Ash Williams v. Frank West personally, at least it would be amusing. Though admittedly an issue for the purposes of producing an animation.

[Rynjin]

I had no stakes in this but... my gut makes me think both the Hercules argument and the "cutting seven buildings" are stupid. Not because DB used them but because they exist in canon. I hate it when game designers decide to have their characters do stuff that's totally not needed to happen...
Oh well, I don't care.

Speaking of me not caring: Next match.
.

...Define "totally not needed to happen". I sincerely have no idea what you mean by that. Both are things that happen in the game for a reason.

[Forum Explorer]

And for the actual topic of the thread, Sora vs. Pit is out!


https://youtu.be/sP6zEprq1zs

In which Sora, who is not Superman, fights Pit, who is not Goku.

And Sora takes it. I'm not entirely sure I agree on having the Gummi Ship nullify the Great Sacred Treasure so neither is allowed. The Great Sacred Treasure is explicitly for combat, the Gummi Ship is a transport with weapons.
Hope you like zombies, because Frank West is fighting Leon Kennedy.

...eh, they can't all be interesting, I guess.

Yeah, it seemed to be pretty straightforward. As soon as they said that Sora had dodged natural lightning I knew it was pretty much over. A pretty basic match up of one guys numbers are just higher then others.


Really? Isn't Leon Kennedy around a decade younger than Frank West, and an agent for an elite American anti-bioterrorism task force? I mean, Frank could win - particularly if you take video game mechanics literally - but I would say it's unlikely.

I would've done Ash Williams v. Frank West personally, at least it would be amusing. Though admittedly an issue for the purposes of producing an animation.

Agreed. Leon fights giant monsters, Frank's boss fights are just crazy dudes. This seems pretty clear cut.

[McNum]

Yeah, in a straight up fight, I'd say Leon, too, but Frank does have one advantage. He has a working Mega Buster. Yes, same one as Mega Man. Which makes no sense, but he has it.

[ArlEammon]

Got a suggestion for you, how about Negan vs an unarmed Gregor Clegane "The Mountain" From Game of Thrones?
Negan would still have his base ball bat.

[Kato]

...Define "totally not needed to happen". I sincerely have no idea what you mean by that. Both are things that happen in the game for a reason.

I mean like when Megaman holds up a building in a cutscene and dies when an icicle drops on him or when Snake dodges bullets and pulls of crazy acrobatics that are impossible to do in-game, it seems like something pretty removed from what the character can do otherwise to make him look more awesome. It's not good enough he can beat up monsters, he has to slize through seven buildings? Why? Why include this in the game? What would be lost without it?

[Rater202]

I mean like when Megaman holds up a building in a cutscene and dies when an icicle drops on him or when Snake dodges bullets and pulls of crazy acrobatics that are impossible to do in-game, it seems like something pretty removed from what the character can do otherwise to make him look more awesome. It's not good enough he can beat up monsters, he has to slize through seven buildings? Why? Why include this in the game? What would be lost without it?

Sora slicing through those buldings was gameplay.

[Rynjin]

I mean like when Megaman holds up a building in a cutscene and dies when an icicle drops on him or when Snake dodges bullets and pulls of crazy acrobatics that are impossible to do in-game, it seems like something pretty removed from what the character can do otherwise to make him look more awesome. It's not good enough he can beat up monsters, he has to slize through seven buildings? Why? Why include this in the game? What would be lost without it?

...It was a part of a boss fight, and consistently replicated similarly by feats shown later in the same boss fight.

Along with stuff in different boss fights like juggling a dragon with his sword slashes and blocking the attack of a monster far larger than those skyscrapers while in the form of a lion cub holding his Keyblade in his teeth.

Nothing about the skyscraper feat is inconsistent with other gameplay elements.

[Forum Explorer]

Got a suggestion for you, how about Negan vs an unarmed Gregor Clegane "The Mountain" From Game of Thrones?
Negan would still have his base ball bat.

Who is Negan?

[Lemmy]

Who is Negan?Guy from The Walking Dead. I doubt he would have a chance against Clegane... Negan is mean, but not particularly skilled. Clegane is a 8ft-tall trained warrior who does nothing but practice violence his whole life. He'd probably block/tank a single swing of Negan's bat before crushing the man's skull with his bare hands.

[Rynjin]

Who is Negan?

A thug with a baseball bat who has no particular standout features in either physicality or martial skill. Also a primary villain from The Walking Dead.

Surely, the greatest matchup for a guy pushing the limits of human size and strength, wearing armor and trained to kill.

[Celestia]

I don't know too much about either Sora or Pit, but I feel like both of them were horribly represented, being nerfed in some areas and overblown in others. I get the impression that the research team didn't care enough to try.

[Rater202]

I don't know too much about either Sora or Pit, but I feel like both of them were horribly represented, being nerfed in some areas and overblown in others. I get the impression that the research team didn't care enough to try.

I'm not sure about Pit, but other tha the moon laser and drive forms most of Sora's stuff seems accurate.

[Lemmy]

Frank West might have an advantage just based on how "cartoony" his games are, while RE tries to keep things relatively down-to-earth... Kinda of... Leon pulls bat**** crazy stunts in the less serious games (RE4) and CG movies (in one of them, a giant monster punches Leon hard enough for him to fly 30 ft in the air, collide with metal ground, then fall to ground... And that doesn't even slow him down! It's ridiculous even for the movie's own standards!)

EDIT: My mistake! It's more like 90 ft in the air and Leon hits concrete... Then proceeds to get up and get back into action like it was nothing. Check it out (https://youtu.be/FAt3rwOf2kQ?t=2m9s)! I remember suddenly laughing out loud when I first saw this scene...

[Celestia]

Frank West might have an advantage just based on how "cartoony" his games are, while RE tries to keep things relatively down-to-earth... Kinda of... Leon pulls bat**** crazy stunts in the less serious games (RE4) and CG movies (in one of them, a giant monster punches Leon hard enough for him to fly 30 ft in the air, collide with metal ground, then fall to ground... And that doesn't even slow him down! It's ridiculous even for the movie's own standards!)

EDIT: My mistake! It's more like 90 ft in the air and Leon hits concrete... Then proceeds to get up and get back into action like it was nothing. Check it out (https://youtu.be/FAt3rwOf2kQ?t=2m9s)! I remember suddenly laughing out loud when I first saw this scene...
Doesn't RE4 have an infinite rocket launcher as an unlockable? I wonder if Death Battle will consider that "canon."

[Delicious Taffy]

If anything, I'd say Sora seems less competent in cutscenes. He routinely stands around, gasping at things he could very easily stop, like every single time somebody uses a dark portal. At one point, Saïx casually strolls into one, I think backwards, and Sora just gawps at him like he can't close the distance in half a picosecond.

As for his Drive Forms, the only time you can use them in KHII, without Donald or Goofy, is in the Cerberus Cup Tournament, which has it as a special rule. (Unless I missed a section when I replayed the game last week.)

[Devonix]

Doesn't RE4 have an infinite rocket launcher as an unlockable? I wonder if Death Battle will consider that "canon."

You really... REALLY!!! don't want to make this about who has the better weapons if you're rooting for Leon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUORnWM_v4c

[Rater202]

If anything, I'd say Sora seems less competent in cutscenes. He routinely stands around, gasping at things he could very easily stop, like every single time somebody uses a dark portal. At one point, Saïx casually strolls into one, I think backwards, and Sora just gawps at him like he can't close the distance in half a picosecond.

As for his Drive Forms, the only time you can use them in KHII, without Donald or Goofy, is in the Cerberus Cup Tournament, which has it as a special rule. (Unless I missed a section when I replayed the game last week.)

In the cutscene where they're introduced, Sora uses ValorForm, which in gameplay requires him to combine with goofy, while Goofy is still there.

I linked it in a spoiler up thread, but Goofy actually gawks at the form.

It's a game balance issue rather than a story issue, and we don't count game mechanics.

[Dragonus45]

Well we may not, Death Batte can and will when it suits them. If it was a deciding factor they might have ruled otherwise but for the most part it would have just been building a lilly.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, that LAser isn't exactly an attack.
It's the attack that finishes off Xemnas, albeit in a cutscene.

[Lemmy]

You really... REALLY!!! don't want to make this about who has the better weapons if you're rooting for Leon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUORnWM_v4c
TBF, in RE4, Leon can unlock a laser weapon that tracks and kills every enemy on-screen and around him, and a machine gun with infinity ammo that kills everything with a single bullet... But, yeah... Frank definitely has the upper hand in the "crazy weapon that makes no sense but is awesome anyway" department... And IIRC, in DR4, he can actually gain the powers of some Street Fighter characters, including Akuma. :smallbiggrin:

Now, if we ignore obvious in-game jokes (like Leon's laser blaster and Frank's Satsu no Hado) and focus on character skill, rather than gear, then Leon probably wins... But I doubt DB would waste the chance of having Frank craft some bizarre weapons to use in the fight. That's the whole point of his games!

[Devonix]

TBF, in RE4, Leon can unlock a laser weapon that tracks and kills every enemy on-screen and around him, and a machine gun with infinity ammo that kills everything with a single bullet... But, yeah... Frank definitely has the upper hand in the "crazy weapon that makes no sense but is awesome anyway" department... And IIRC, in DR4, he can actually gain the powers of some Street Fighter characters, including Akuma. :smallbiggrin:

Now, if we ignore obvious in-game jokes (like Leon's laser blaster and Frank's Satsu no Hado) and focus on character skill, rather than gear, then Leon probably wins... But I doubt DB would waste the chance of having Frank craft some bizarre weapons to use in the fight. That's the whole point of his games!

And while Leon can unlock some crazy weapons. Some of those mech suits shown there aren't unlockables. They are story required. One of the first missions is about making that ice mech.

[Kato]

...It was a part of a boss fight, and consistently replicated similarly by feats shown later in the same boss fight.

Along with stuff in different boss fights like juggling a dragon with his sword slashes and blocking the attack of a monster far larger than those skyscrapers while in the form of a lion cub holding his Keyblade in his teeth.

Nothing about the skyscraper feat is inconsistent with other gameplay elements.

To be honest, this just makes me less interested to give the game (another) try because it sounds really stupid.. Then again, maybe I should not take it serious, like, at all. I sure hope Sora is as indestructible by whatever other enemies throw at him, too. :smalltongue:

[Lemmy]

Hmmm... How about matching Martian Manhunter against Vision?

[Rater202]

Then again, maybe I should not take it seriously, like, at all.Tetsuya Numora, a writer at Square Ennix, showed Disney/Final Fantasy Megacrossover Fanfic to Disney's Lawyers and Disney was like "sure, why the hell not?"

The resulting Crackfic proceeded to take itself completely seriously, with lines like Goofy says "It's Sephiroth!" with his official voice. In complete seriousness. Where God Damned Mickey Mouse is the most badass fighter in a universe that has Cloud Strife and Squall Leonheart. Who both happen to be on a team that consists of several other FF Characters(Yuffie, Arith, Tifa, and a Cid--the one what's good with machines) and Merlin from Sword in the Stone. And they work together to save the computer world from Tron.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-ythCUAPdh4/maxresdefault.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pbEccddOIDE/maxresdefault.jpg

The first picture is the whole thing, the second one is a close up of the "rider" of the monster with Lion Cub! Sora(who is about the size of Kid Simba) for context on how big it is.

That used to be Scar! Simba's evil uncle.

The answer to the question "maybe I'm taking it too seriously?" is "You are absofreakinlutely taking it too seriously."

[Kato]

You know, I was going to say something snarky the physics of such a story but that train of thought brought me to some other fight I want..
Bugs Bunny vs Mickey Mouse. (or Daffy vs Donald. Or Porky vs Goofy?) I mean, I think I know who wins but I still want to see it.



Hmmm... How about matching Martian Manhunter against Vision?

Sounds fair enough and thematically fitting. Of course it's Marvel vs DC again which has been done to death by now

[Anteros]

I believe that Manhunter would stomp Vision pretty hard. He can negate Vision's phasing and all of his other stats are waaaaay higher than Vision's. It's Flash vs Quicksilver all over again.

[Keltest]

I believe that Manhunter would stomp Vision pretty hard. He can negate Vision's phasing and all of his other stats are waaaaay higher than Vision's. It's Flash vs Quicksilver all over again.

That depends. Are we going with the movieverse version of Vision who has an infinity stone in his forehead? Because that changes the equation a bit.

[Anteros]

That depends. Are we going with the movieverse version of Vision who has an infinity stone in his forehead? Because that changes the equation a bit.

Does it? His best feat is still like blowing up an airplane hanger. He never really utilizes the stone, even when his life is in jeopardy.

[Lemmy]

I believe that Manhunter would stomp Vision pretty hard. He can negate Vision's phasing and all of his other stats are waaaaay higher than Vision's. It's Flash vs Quicksilver all over again.Is that so? I was never a big fan of either character so I don't know what their stats are... The Vision however is very inconsistent... There're scenes of him being beat by Captain America and others of hin curb-stomping the Avengers all at the same time.

I suspect Martian Manhunter has an advantage due to being more of a protagonist than Vision, that means he probably got more random upgrades and one-shot feats than Vision.

[Devonix]

Is that so? I was never a big fan of either character so I don't know what their stats are... The Vision however is very inconsistent... There're scenes of him being beat by Captain America and others of hin curb-stomping the Avengers all at the same time.

I suspect Martian Manhunter has an advantage due to being more of a protagonist than Vision, that means he probably got more random upgrades and one-shot feats than Vision.

Manhunter is capable of matching up to Superman's strength with a whole host of other powers.

[Gandariel]

Manhunter is capable of matching up to Superman's strength with a whole host of other powers.

Oh, so he's infinite. :P

[Maryring]

Worst fight ever.

They completely used the wrong intro for Pit! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i7lT2RYRyw)

Anyhow, as I suspected the Shõnen hero won easily. Sora has a ton of showy moves for Death Battle to do their math and Pit... doesn't. His animation fight against Thanatos (the extra h is for hamazing) is an outlier, as in the games his most impressive feats are rather low key. I entered the fight expecting a victory for Sora and that's what I got.

Even so, is it just me or have death battle become more brutal? It might just be me, but these fights, and the DBX ones, just seem to end in bloodiness that feels so... incongruous with characters like these. I end up being hung up on how Donald and Goofy just watch Sora murder an angel and they don't react at all.

Ah well, there's always one minute melee. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whuE8ouWdiQ)

[Anteros]

Worst fight ever.

They completely used the wrong intro for Pit! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i7lT2RYRyw)

Anyhow, as I suspected the Shõnen hero won easily. Sora has a ton of showy moves for Death Battle to do their math and Pit... doesn't. His animation fight against Thanatos (the extra h is for hamazing) is an outlier, as in the games his most impressive feats are rather low key. I entered the fight expecting a victory for Sora and that's what I got.

Even so, is it just me or have death battle become more brutal? It might just be me, but these fights, and the DBX ones, just seem to end in bloodiness that feels so... incongruous with characters like these. I end up being hung up on how Donald and Goofy just watch Sora murder an angel and they don't react at all.

Ah well, there's always one minute melee. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whuE8ouWdiQ)

I usually turn it off once the murder porn starts as well. These days I basically just skip the "analysis", watch the first half of the fight, and turn it off. Whoever starts the fight winning ends up losing 90% of the time anyway.

[Rater202]

Worst fight ever.

They completely used the wrong intro for Pit! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i7lT2RYRyw)

Anyhow, as I suspected the Shõnen hero won easily. Sora has a ton of showy moves for Death Battle to do their math and Pit... doesn't. His animation fight against Thanatos (the extra h is for hamazing) is an outlier, as in the games his most impressive feats are rather low key. I entered the fight expecting a victory for Sora and that's what I got.

Even so, is it just me or have death battle become more brutal? It might just be me, but these fights, and the DBX ones, just seem to end in bloodiness that feels so... incongruous with characters like these. I end up being hung up on how Donald and Goofy just watch Sora murder an angel and they don't react at all.

Ah well, there's always one minute melee. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whuE8ouWdiQ)

In Castle Oblivion Sora was nonchalantly killing members of Organization XIIIbefore he learned that they didn't technically exist and in II he basically beat Shan Yu from Mulan to death.

Sora's stance towards killing is "give me a reason" and KH Donald and Goofy have had plenty of time to acumulate to that.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, Sora has no real compunctions toward killing his enemies. Or in the case of Nobodies making them entirely cease to exist (at least to his knowledge at the time).

[Maryring]

Are you seriously gonna argue that you see no thematic difference between a fight that leaves a bloody corpse and a fight that has the enemy puff into nothing?

Also, spoiler tags people. It hasn't been even a week yet. There may be people who haven't seen the fight yet.

[deuterio12]

In Castle Oblivion Sora was nonchalantly killing members of Organization XIIIbefore he learned that they didn't technically exist and in II he basically beat Shan Yu from Mulan to death.

Sora's stance towards killing is "give me a reason" and KH Donald and Goofy have had plenty of time to acumulate to that.

Please.
https://imgur.com/QasNg0e.png
Donald was probably the one who taught Sora how to be like that.

[Reddish Mage]

I've noticed in the commentary they admitted that there standards for the arensal of Final Fantasy characters have "evolved." They give Sora everything but summons (because summons bring in other characters "not part of his arsenal").

This is the closest I've heard to an admission that Cloud vs Link was a mistake, or at least Cloud (and by extension Tifa) was gimpier than they could have made him. Ben also sounded defensive when Chad brought up Cloud vs Link a few weeks ago in the chat as a "close battle" which could have had many different outcomes if they tweaked things slightly.

Now if anyone wants to jump on this to criticize them as anything but deciding on new standards over time, I would suggest first watching the commentary and the weekly live chat.

I'm not sure I agree with Sora's speed here. It doesn't look like he's dodging lighting so much as you get a sign that lightning is coming down way before it happens and move out of the way. At best Sora should have a danger sense or magic sense ability, not super speed beyond what the animation actually suggests. Sora does, however, have a really powerful, really fast laser he occassionally uses to attack, so that seems determinative of the outcome (he can also stop time and heal).



I don't know too much about either Sora or Pit, but I feel like both of them were horribly represented, being nerfed in some areas and overblown in others. I get the impression that the research team didn't care enough to try.

This sort of lazy critique makes me think its not worth discussing things in this thread. What specific places in the video gives you the impression? If its just a matter of the video games don't make them seem so powerful when you actually play them, we've been talking about game mechanics ad naseum. It should be something much more specific though, since you claim you see both nerfing and munchkinizing.

[Rynjin]

I somewhat took umbrage with using Stop to stop projectiles (it doesn't do that in the game) but that's close to all I saw of overblowing Sora.

Given he could have cast Reflect there instead for an even more devastating block, it could be argued to have been a nerf.

[Delicious Taffy]

I somewhat took umbrage with using Stop to stop projectiles (it doesn't do that in the game) but that's close to all I saw of overblowing Sora.

Given he could have cast Reflect there instead for an even more devastating block, it could be argued to have been a nerf.

If Sora had used Reflect, it would have been a much shorter battle.

[Rater202]

To be fair, while Stop in gameplay only freezes enemies it's cast on, Stop in Cutscenes freezes everything.

Granted, the most prominent example was Stopza, which is a spell Sora can't cast yet.

[McNum]

To be fair, while Stop in gameplay only freezes enemies it's cast on, Stop in Cutscenes freezes everything.

Granted, the most prominent example was Stopza, which is a spell Sora can't cast yet.
Mickey Mouse is just that OP.

Though I will give him style credit for interrupting a gathering of time travelers with a time freeze spell. That's both a very good opening move and a very fitting way to establish that you're going to be a problem now.

[Reddish Mage]

Mickey Mouse is just that OP.

Though I will give him style credit for interrupting a gathering of time travelers with a time freeze spell. That's both a very good opening move and a very fitting way to establish that you're going to be a problem now.

They've mentioned recently in the episode "Permanently Banned from Death Battle" that part of the reason they won't do a Mickey Mouse fight is that KH Mickey is just way too overpowered.

I think its fascetious to bring in Kingdom Hearts Mickey however, not only because they expressed that Disney had an old reputation of savagely protecting the Mouse, but because KH Mickey doesn't just differ from canon Mickey, he's a completely different sort of entity...going from sorcerer's apprentice to sorcerer supreme.

There's a battle for you Mickey Mouse vs. Dr. Strange. Dr. Strange wins obviously by looking into the future and calculating the only way to win the fight...shut down Death Battle for good (they said if they did use Mickey Mouse it would be in the last battle ever).

[Devonix]

So about Frank vs Leon. My money's on my boy Frank. Better weapons, and higher physical stats in every way other than agility.

[Rater202]

Unless you count the time Frank was temporarily turned into a super-zombie but retained his mind, I'm gonna have to give it to Leon.

While the early T-Virus zombies were about on the same level as the deaders that Frank fights, Leon's also fought several giant monsters, super-soldiers, and freaky mutants as well as T-Veronica, Las Plagas, and C-virus infected whoa re all singificantly more dangerous. He's also a professional Zombie killer while Frank, for his experiance, is an amature with impovised weapons, and Leon is consistantly shown to be the equal of people who are actually Superhuman.

[Devonix]

Unless you count the time Frank was temporarily turned into a super-zombie but retained his mind, I'm gonna have to give it to Leon.

While the early T-Virus zombies were about on the same level as the deaders that Frank fights, Leon's also fought several giant monsters, super-soldiers, and freaky mutants as well as T-Veronica, Las Plagas, and C-virus infected whoa re all singificantly more dangerous. He's also a professional Zombie killer while Frank, for his experiance, is an amature with impovised weapons, and Leon is consistantly shown to be the equal of people who are actually Superhuman.

The simple power of the weaponry frank has outclasses anything Leon gets ahold of. Add in the speed and stamina boosting drinks as well as the raw physical strength frank has.

And as for being better trained. Franks been beating special forces solders easily since the first game. Even hand to hand.

[Lemmy]

The simple power of the weaponry frank has outclasses anything Leon gets ahold of. Add in the speed and stamina boosting drinks as well as the raw physical strength frank has.

And as for being better trained. Franks been beating special forces solders easily since the first game. Even hand to hand.
Saying Frank can beat Leon because he beats a bunch of SF agents is like saying Buffy can beat Alucard because she beats a bunch of vampires in her show. These enemies are on completely different tiers in the "mook-main protagonist" scale. One thing to remember is that while Frank has a really cool arsenal, his weapons can be (and constantly are) resisted by normal humans (unless you want to count every unlockable joke weapon, like Akuma's powers, but then we have to consider Leon's crazy stuff as well, like the laser that kills everything on-screen, the machine gun that kills everything with a single bullet, the infinity-ammo rocket launcher that one-shots even the final boss, etc). Frank doesn't one-shot enemies even in cutscenes, AFAIR. Well... Neither does Leon (unless you count using a rocket-launchers post-fight), but his boss-enemies are giant monstrosities, not insane humans.

I believe Frank has a real chance, but he's definitely not a clear winner. RE4 and some of the movies show Leon doing a lot of impossible BS to match Dead Rising's cartoonesque tone.

[Devonix]

Saying Frank can beat Leon because he beats a bunch of SF agents is like saying Buffy can beat Alucard because she beats a bunch of vampires in her show. These enemies are on completely different tiers in the "mook-main protagonist" scale. One thing to remember is that while Frank has a really cool arsenal, his weapons can be (and constantly are) resisted by normal humans (unless you want to count every unlockable joke weapon, like Akuma's powers, but then we have to consider Leon's crazy stuff as well, like the laser that kills everything on-screen, the machine gun that kills everything with a single bullet, the infinity-ammo rocket launcher that one-shots even the final boss, etc). Frank doesn't one-shot enemies even in cutscenes, AFAIR. Well... Neither does Leon (unless you count using a rocket-launchers post-fight), but his boss-enemies are giant monstrosities, not insane humans.

I believe Frank has a real chance, but he's definitely not a clear winner. RE4 and some of the movies show Leon doing a lot of impossible BS to match Dead Rising's cartoonesque tone.

Oh I know that Leon has better training. I'm just saying that Frank's not simply an amateur.

[Lemmy]

Oh I know that Leon has better training. I'm just saying that Frank's not simply an amateur.
I mean... Technically, he is. No one hired him to beat those agents. XD

But, hey! Frank can totally beat Thor in Marvel vs Capcom, so there's that!

[Forum Explorer]

Oh I know that Leon has better training. I'm just saying that Frank's not simply an amateur.

Sure. And more importantly, both characters are just human. A well placed bullet with kill either one of them.

[McNum]

They've mentioned recently in the episode "Permanently Banned from Death Battle" that part of the reason they won't do a Mickey Mouse fight is that KH Mickey is just way too overpowered.

I think its fascetious to bring in Kingdom Hearts Mickey however, not only because they expressed that Disney had an old reputation of savagely protecting the Mouse, but because KH Mickey doesn't just differ from canon Mickey, he's a completely different sort of entity...going from sorcerer's apprentice to sorcerer supreme.

There's a battle for you Mickey Mouse vs. Dr. Strange. Dr. Strange wins obviously by looking into the future and calculating the only way to win the fight...shut down Death Battle for good (they said if they did use Mickey Mouse it would be in the last battle ever).
I still want Donald Duck for a Death Battle, though. As in full on comics Donald Duck. Who is a globetrotting adventurer, a secret agent of three different agencies (one where he hunts the supernatural, one where he does corporate espionage for Uncle Scrooge, and one where he's basically James Bond as Agent Double Duck), and a superhero who fights badguys including but not limited to: common criminals, alien empires, and time travelers. He also owns a supersonic plane, a space cruiser, and if all else fails, his trusty old 313 car has more gadgets installed than all the James Bond cars combined.

I think he should fight Daffy. Who is Duck Dodgers of the 23rd and a half century as well as a Green Lantern. Should at the very least be a fun fight. I'm thinking Donald takes it on experience, he's just that much of a better fighter.

And yes, the previews should say absolutely nothing about the superhero stuff. Just introduce the characters in their civilian forms. Then the show turns out quite... different.

[Lemmy]

Sure. And more importantly, both characters are just human. A well placed bullet with kill either one of them.
Well... Except in-game. In-game both of them can tank bullets, grenades, flame, electricity, acid, missiles...

And that's why most gameplay elements are/should be ignored or at least taken with a big grain of salt.

[Devonix]

Sure. And more importantly, both characters are just human. A well placed bullet with kill either one of them.

Unless it's Zombie Frank who in universe, not just in gameplay can tank heavy machine gun fire. without losing any intelligence or of any of his human abilities.

[Maryring]

The worst part about the Frank vs Leon fight... is that I have no idea who either of them are and the names are so normal that I have a hard time keeping straight who's who.

[Devonix]

The worst part about the Frank vs Leon fight... is that I have no idea who either of them are and the names are so normal that I have a hard time keeping straight who's who.

Leon Kennedy is one of the protagonists from the Resident Evil series.
Frank West is from the Dead Rising Series.

They are to different Zombie series that Capcom produces.

[Lemmy]

The worst part about the Frank vs Leon fight... is that I have no idea who either of them are and the names are so normal that I have a hard time keeping straight who's who.
Just remember the guy who kills zombies.

[Rater202]

For reference: Zombies in Dead Rising are caused by one of two mutant wasps, while the Zeds in RE are caused by various physics breaking viruses, parasites, and in one case a bizarre fungus/bacteria hybrid though Leon hasn't fought any of those.

Standard T-Virus zombies arne't much differant from you're normal romero zombies though they don't nessesarily need to be headshotted, similary to the zeds in Dead Rising, but certain strains of the virus won't stay dead if you don't headshot them and will come back as stronger monsters--Crimson Heads in REMake and it's been implied or stated(don't remmeber which) that the Lickers(quadropedal zombies with exposed brains and long toungue that can slice a man apart) are the result of that process being repeated more than once. Well, up until it was descovered that lickers can reprosuce sexually, now they're bred.

Other kinds of RE infected,however, have differant effects--T-Veronica might make you a zombie, or it might make you a freak plant and/or insect based monstroncity or, if you do it just right, make you otherwise human but able to set your blood on fire, while Las Plagas infected are fully sentient, if violent and compelled to anochronistic behaviors(Las Plagas in Eruope end up in resizance era peasantry clothing while tribal africans end up in traditional clothing and tools. in both cases, other than a handful of guys with chainsaws, the Las Plagas victims will prefer to inflict violence is pre-industrial faming equipment or other melee weapons even if their are guns right there.)

and that's not even getting into the giant bugs, the super soldiers, and the freaking Kaiju that Leon and his compatriots fight on a regular basis.

[Lemmy]

You know... I've been rereading "Akira" lately, and a couple days ago, an Youtuber I like made a pretty awesome video about the cultural impact of the animated movie.

That made me think... Who could possibly make a good opponent for peak-power Tetsuo (well... Peak-power before he loses control and mutates into a giant abomination, anyway).

Maybe Mob from "Mob Psycho"? Jean Grey (without the Phoenix Force, as that would technically be adding another character... And it's too overpowered, anyway).

That could be a cool battle...

I also would love to see Jackie Chan from the animated cartoon with the 12 magi medallions... Although, one of them makes the user invulnerable and immortal, and just in case, another one heals any damage... So it might end up as yet another "The other is probably more powerful, but still can't kill him".

[Maryring]

Just remember the guy who kills zombies.

In that case I'll be rooting for whomever is killing zombies. Because zombies are the worst.

[Reddish Mage]

I still want Donald Duck for a Death Battle, though. As in full on comics Donald Duck. Who is a globetrotting adventurer, a secret agent of three different agencies (one where he hunts the supernatural, one where he does corporate espionage for Uncle Scrooge, and one where he's basically James Bond as Agent Double Duck), and a superhero who fights badguys including but not limited to: common criminals, alien empires, and time travelers. He also owns a supersonic plane, a space cruiser, and if all else fails, his trusty old 313 car has more gadgets installed than all the James Bond cars combined.

I think he should fight Daffy. Who is Duck Dodgers of the 23rd and a half century as well as a Green Lantern. Should at the very least be a fun fight. I'm thinking Donald takes it on experience, he's just that much of a better fighter.

And yes, the previews should say absolutely nothing about the superhero stuff. Just introduce the characters in their civilian forms. Then the show turns out quite... different.

Donald Duck against Daffy would be an excellent Death Battle. I don't think your idea of holding back their superhero/action hero abilities in the previews work with their way of running things though.

Death Battle works through a lot of audience interaction and building reddit discussion. They also articulated this season that they will use ALL official material (as long as it doesn't contradict canon). There's no way the base wouldn't already be discussing what hidden skills and powers each will bring to the table before the previews even air. If they don't use the action hero stuff in the previews (which means creating previews that lie, because the previews always include a stat rundown) they will be called out on it.

Anyway, it sounds like Donald would win, but Daffy has plenty of superpowered and action hero-esqe moves himself. In fact, I think Daffy has taken enough punishment that the argument may be made that he is essentially immortal and cannot be killed. The same may be true for Donald, but Loony Tunes is infamous for how much punishment they dish out on their toons.

Also, I think most of the abilities shown can be used, but stories where Donald or Daffy have actual superpowers (or say Kingdom Hearts) is probably so outside the norm that they should be considered contradicting canon. Clearly these characters don't have powers and magic most of the time.

[Traab]

Too be fair, a large portion of the animated jackie chan adventures involves people losing the medallions on a regular basis. Lets make it jackie chan versus XIAOLIN SHOWDOWN! Both have martial artists with powerful artifacts, all have unique abilities, and both are constantly being stolen, lost, tricked out of, etc.

[Rater202]

1: Talismans. Not Medallions. The Talismans of Shendu.

2: Animated Jackie never had all 12 Talismans. The only people who did were Shendu(from who the Talismans were extracted, though the implication is that he stole the powers themselves from their rightful owners) and Jade in one episode.

Teh J-Team(Jackie, Jade, Uncle, Tohru, Viper, and El Toro) with the talismans divided among them against the Xiaolin Dragons from XS with their singature weapons and one Wu each(Two artifacts per fight) might make a decent matchup, but the Monks would have an advantage--only two members of the J-Tem have Supernatural powers without the Talismans, while the Dragons each have an elemental power that becomes increaisnly more blatant as the series moves on. On the other hand, the J-Team has numbers and Tohru is canonically strong enough to overpower A professional Luchadore(less staged than American Pro Wrestling) who had the "Super Strength" Talisman.

[Traab]

I know he never had all 12, that wasnt my point. Its that the entire series revolves around one side or the other gaining then losing the talismans back and forth between them. It didnt matter what combo they had at the time, SOMETHING always comes up to make them lose ownership of one or more of the set. Its not like they are permanently fused to the wielder or something. Thats something that would likely be mentioned in a death battle, as its canonically a real issue with using them in a fight. Same for the Wu. They gain them, they lose them, they face them in battle and find a way to get them back, etc etc etc. I honestly see a team battle being a gloriously chaotic mess as powers are constantly alternating back and forth as they keep stealing and losing magical items.

[Rater202]

actually, the Talisman's were all firmly in Good Guy hands for most of Season 2 and all of Seasons 4 and 5.

They were only the Maggufins for season 1 and 3, and generally speaking once a side had one, it was there until the end of the season. And in Seasons 2, 4, and 5 the Good Guys ultimately got all of the Magguffins(The Bad guys getting two each in seasons 1 and 3) until the True Big Bad got them in the end but was then defeated anyway.

So if tendency to lose magic items is a factor in the fight, then the Dragons are kind of screwed in this hypothetical.

[Celestia]

I really want to see Death Battle tackle Megas XLR. I bet Boomstick would have some great reactions to that show.

[Lemmy]

Well, at one point Jade had all the powers of the talismans without actually needing the talismans. And evil-sorcerer guy tried to steal them from her...

Now, although Jackie never had all the talismans, I think it'd be acceptable to give them to Jackie for the purposes of DB... Otherwise he doesn't have much going for him and will probably be curb-stomped by whoever is his opponent (assuming super powers are in play).

[Reddish Mage]

Now, although Jackie never had all the talismans, I think it'd be acceptable to give them to Jackie for the purposes of DB... Otherwise he doesn't have much going for him and will probably be curb-stomped by whoever is his opponent (assuming super powers are in play).

I thought the point was to analyze who would actually win...then create a show. Even if you hate DB and think they do a poor job of it, the point of the thread here was talking about who would actually win in the DB and hypothetical matchups using the DB rules.

If Jackie’s going to lose give him everything to make a good show, but if it could actually affect the outcome DB doesn’t do charity, and we sure don’t.

Just make Jackie’s opponent someone on his level, like Chuck Norris’s Walker Texas Ranger. Jackie could totally win that one.

[Lemmy]

I thought the point was to analyze who would actually win...then create a show. Even if you hate DB and think they do a poor job of it, the point of the thread here was talking about who would actually win in the DB and hypothetical matchups using the DB rules.

If Jackie’s going to lose give him everything to make a good show, but if it could actually affect the outcome DB doesn’t do charity, and we sure don’t.

Just make Jackie’s opponent someone on his level, like Chuck Norris’s Walker Texas Ranger. Jackie could totally win that one.Well, it would be fun seeing Jackie obtaining and losing the talismans through out the match. Jackie actually has possession of 1~3 talismans at a time at various points... Plus a few other magical relics.

TBH, I just want to see someone kung-fu fighting with the power of all talismans at the same time! :smallbiggrin:

Oh! And Jackie Chan definitely beats Chuck Norris! :smallcool:

EDIT: If by charity you mean "give characters powers/abilities/stats/gear they never had at the same time"... Then DB does that quite often, specially when using characters who have multiple versions.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Las Plagas infected are fully sentient, if violent and compelled to anochronistic behaviors(Las Plagas in Eruope end up in resizance era peasantry clothing while tribal africans end up in traditional clothing and tools. in both cases, other than a handful of guys with chainsaws, the Las Plagas victims will prefer to inflict violence is pre-industrial faming equipment or other melee weapons even if their are guns right there.)


...anachronism zombies????

... no comment.

[Reddish Mage]

EDIT: If by charity you mean "give characters powers/abilities/stats/gear they never had at the same time"... Then DB does that quite often, specially when using characters who have multiple versions.

The question is whether the talismans are in Jackie’s “arsenal.” These are macguffins that appear and get lost throughout the series run.

While we are on death battle concepts they’ll never try, I note that JADE is the real main character of the story. Who would she fight? Yes, I realize they’ll never actually do a death battle with characters that are children.

[Anteros]

The question is whether the talismans are in Jackie’s “arsenal.” These are macguffins that appear and get lost throughout the series run.

While we are on death battle concepts they’ll never try, I note that JADE is the real main character of the story. Who would she fight? Yes, I realize they’ll never actually do a death battle with characters that are children.

Did you not watch the pokemon vs digimon fight? They are certainly not above featuring children in their murder-gore-porn.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

While we are on death battle concepts they’ll never try, I note that JADE is the real main character of the story. Who would she fight? Yes, I realize they’ll never actually do a death battle with characters that are children.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh

Toph would disagree.

[McNum]

Donald Duck against Daffy would be an excellent Death Battle. I don't think your idea of holding back their superhero/action hero abilities in the previews work with their way of running things though.

Death Battle works through a lot of audience interaction and building reddit discussion. They also articulated this season that they will use ALL official material (as long as it doesn't contradict canon). There's no way the base wouldn't already be discussing what hidden skills and powers each will bring to the table before the previews even air. If they don't use the action hero stuff in the previews (which means creating previews that lie, because the previews always include a stat rundown) they will be called out on it.

Anyway, it sounds like Donald would win, but Daffy has plenty of superpowered and action hero-esqe moves himself. In fact, I think Daffy has taken enough punishment that the argument may be made that he is essentially immortal and cannot be killed. The same may be true for Donald, but Loony Tunes is infamous for how much punishment they dish out on their toons.

Also, I think most of the abilities shown can be used, but stories where Donald or Daffy have actual superpowers (or say Kingdom Hearts) is probably so outside the norm that they should be considered contradicting canon. Clearly these characters don't have powers and magic most of the time.
Yeah, I'd leave Kingdom Hearts Donald out of it. That's clearly a different Donald, just like all the Final Fantasy characters are alternate versions.

I would say that it depends if Daffy gets to stay an honorary Green Lantern, he did use the ring once. Because he got his laundry mixed up with Hal Jordan's. He also has his underhandedness as an advantage. Daffy might not be a great fighter, but when he fights, he fights dirty. And he can take a shotgun to the face and only need to readjust his beak.

I don't think Donald has the same amount of toon durability, but he does have the McDuck line of rage strength. Got it from his mother who once chased off the army with a broom. They were annoying her Scrooge. And Donald's superhero gear is frankly OP. In the weaker end he has bon bons that induce amnesia, and on the harsher end he has a stasis beam. Can't jump around like an idiot if you're frozen in time.

I'd say Donald wins a conventional fight, but Daffy has a shot if he goes all chaotic on him. It does take quite a lot to actually surprise Donald at this point, though. I mean when you found El Dorado, defeated an alien empire, traveled to the future and back, and much more, you tend to get slightly jaded.

[Lemmy]

The question is whether the talismans are in Jackie’s “arsenal.” These are macguffins that appear and get lost throughout the series run.

While we are on death battle concepts they’ll never try, I note that JADE is the real main character of the story. Who would she fight? Yes, I realize they’ll never actually do a death battle with characters that are children.You mean other than Gaara vs Toph? Or Sora vs Pit?

[Delicious Taffy]

You mean other than Gaara vs Toph? Or Sora vs Pit?

Can't forget Justin Bieber vs Rebecca Black. And those are allegedly real humans.

[Lemmy]

And let's not forget Harry Potter and Tails.

Oh! And lots of teenagers too!

[Reddish Mage]

Uhhhhhhhhhhh

Toph would disagree.

I put Jade's age at like 8 (9 actually), whereas Toph is 12. Also why I'm not counting Sora/Pit, once they start undergoing puberty they're obviously fair game.


Did you not watch the pokemon vs digimon fight? They are certainly not above featuring children in their murder-gore-porn.

I didn't. They actually show 8 year olds getting killed? I guess they have no shame.


Yeah, I'd leave Kingdom Hearts Donald out of it. That's clearly a different Donald, just like all the Final Fantasy characters are alternate versions.

I would say that it depends if Daffy gets to stay an honorary Green Lantern, he did use the ring once. Because he got his laundry mixed up with Hal Jordan's. He also has his underhandedness as an advantage. Daffy might not be a great fighter, but when he fights, he fights dirty. And he can take a shotgun to the face and only need to readjust his beak.

I don't think Donald has the same amount of toon durability, but he does have the McDuck line of rage strength. Got it from his mother who once chased off the army with a broom. They were annoying her Scrooge. And Donald's superhero gear is frankly OP. In the weaker end he has bon bons that induce amnesia, and on the harsher end he has a stasis beam. Can't jump around like an idiot if you're frozen in time.

I'd say Donald wins a conventional fight, but Daffy has a shot if he goes all chaotic on him. It does take quite a lot to actually surprise Donald at this point, though. I mean when you found El Dorado, defeated an alien empire, traveled to the future and back, and much more, you tend to get slightly jaded.


Regardless of Donald's great powers (again I think the superhero gear isn't something he has access to outside of the specific storyline), Daffy is essentially immortal. Looney Tune characters have never been used in a Death Battle but have shown they can be blown to pieces, disintegrated to ashes, and pick themselves back together (all of which has happened to Daffy). Daffy has been hit straight on by Marvin's sci-fi ray, got shot by Elmer Fudd, fallen from great heights and gone literally "splat" and otherwise walked away from abuse in ways that make no sense.

Daffy's durability is way past even Buu's regeneration and deep into reality warper territory. I think Daffy has survived stories where the entire universe gets destroyed. Also, Daffy can break the fourth-wall.

I think the only question is whether Daffy has anything in his arsenal that can kill Donald, and any precedent that Daffy can actually get in a fatal hit against anybody, otherwise a Death Battle between the two would end in eternal stalemate.

Apropos of nothing here is a mod (https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=WrAgI454mbI) of Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 featuring Bugs Bunny and Daffy as gods of destruction.

[Rater202]

I put Jade's age at like 8 (9 actually), whereas Toph is 12. Also why I'm not counting Sora/Pit, once they start undergoing puberty they're obviously fair game.

Each season of JCA is roughly a year. Jade even gets annoyed in one episode where she mentions having been with Jackie for years and not growing at all in that time.

So if she was Nine at the start of season one, she's a very short 14 by the end of Season 5.

[McNum]

Regardless of Donald's great powers (again I think the superhero gear isn't something he has access to outside of the specific storyline), Daffy is essentially immortal. Looney Tune characters have never been used in a Death Battle but have shown they can be blown to pieces, disintegrated to ashes, and pick themselves back together (all of which has happened to Daffy). Daffy has been hit straight on by Marvin's sci-fi ray, got shot by Elmer Fudd, fallen from great heights and gone literally "splat" and otherwise walked away from abuse in ways that make no sense.

Daffy's durability is way past even Buu's regeneration and deep into reality warper territory. I think Daffy has survived stories where the entire universe gets destroyed. Also, Daffy can break the fourth-wall.

I think the only question is whether Daffy has anything in his arsenal that can kill Donald, and any precedent that Daffy can actually get in a fatal hit against anybody, otherwise a Death Battle between the two would end in eternal stalemate.

Apropos of nothing here is a mod (https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=WrAgI454mbI) of Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 featuring Bugs Bunny and Daffy as gods of destruction.
The funny thing about Donald's superhero gear is that, until a few years ago, you'd be right. But then the Timecrime story happened. In which Agent Double Duck teamed up with Paperinik establishing that Double Duck is the future of the superhero stories. And also making a lot of callouts to other seemingly incompatible storylines, like the other two secret agencies. Timecrime is why amalgamated Donald Duck exists. Unlike other series where it's a stretch to consider all the versions the same character, Donald, with the exception of his Kingdom Hearts counterpart, is the same character. That's the Donald I want for a Death Battle. Because it's so utterly ridiculous that it deserves to be highlighted. And well, Daffy as Duck Dodgers is really the best thematic opponent.

European Donald Duck comics are weird and it's amazing to see peoples' reactions to them. Also, Donald Duck in a giant mech fighting a giant alien that feeds on your fear. Not making that up.

[Lemmy]

I put Jade's age at like 8 (9 actually), whereas Toph is 12. Also why I'm not counting Sora/Pit, once they start undergoing puberty they're obviously fair game.
So... Killing 8-yo is too much, but killing 12-yo is a-okay? That's some twisted morality right there...

[Moak]

The funny thing about Donald's superhero gear is that, until a few years ago, you'd be right. But then the Timecrime story happened. In which Agent Double Duck teamed up with Paperinik establishing that Double Duck is the future of the superhero stories. And also making a lot of callouts to other seemingly incompatible storylines, like the other two secret agencies. Timecrime is why amalgamated Donald Duck exists. Unlike other series where it's a stretch to consider all the versions the same character, Donald, with the exception of his Kingdom Hearts counterpart, is the same character. That's the Donald I want for a Death Battle. Because it's so utterly ridiculous that it deserves to be highlighted. And well, Daffy as Duck Dodgers is really the best thematic opponent.

European Donald Duck comics are weird and it's amazing to see peoples' reactions to them. Also, Donald Duck in a giant mech fighting a giant alien that feeds on your fear. Not making that up.

Trauma was an amazing story. Expecially the fact that isn't the super robot that wins the fight, but the duck behind the mask. My favourite PKNA story, probably.

And... if we go before Timecrime, "standard" Paperinik weapons are free game. He would have Gyro Gearloose made weapons. Like freeze guns, invisibility cloack, the 313-x car with missiles... less galactic and time traveling powerhouse, and more cartoony Batman.

[Reddish Mage]

The funny thing about Donald's superhero gear is that, until a few years ago, you'd be right. But then the Timecrime story happened. In which Agent Double Duck teamed up with Paperinik establishing that Double Duck is the future of the superhero stories. And also making a lot of callouts to other seemingly incompatible storylines, like the other two secret agencies. Timecrime is why amalgamated Donald Duck exists.

Well that would establish every Donald Duck story is, in fact, fair game. However, the problem remains killing Daffy Duck regardless of whether its amalgam Daffy with green lantern powers and Duck Dodgers equipment or just plain old Daffy Duck.

Daffy can survive disintegration, planet explosions, universal destruction and break the fourth wall. Unless Donald Duck can kill the animator Daffy is going to win.

[Lemmy]

Yeah... Looney Tunes are all basically indestructible. They can be wounded, maimed, mangled and gutted, of course... But they just come back good as new in the very next scene.

Disney characters generally don't go that far in character damage.

[Keltest]

Well that would establish every Donald Duck story is, in fact, fair game. However, the problem remains killing Daffy Duck regardless of whether its amalgam Daffy with green lantern powers and Duck Dodgers equipment or just plain old Daffy Duck.

Daffy can survive disintegration, planet explosions, universal destruction and break the fourth wall. Unless Donald Duck can kill the animator Daffy is going to win.

Is it strange that theres precedent for that? Theres an episode where Bugs draws the cartoon.

[Reddish Mage]

Is it strange that theres precedent for that? Theres an episode where Bugs draws the cartoon.

Not strange there’s a precedent for animators being drawn into the action in Looney Tunes. This is a cartoon franchise full of fourth-wall breaking. Occasionally also suggestions of surreality, existential crisis and comedic riffs philosophical quandaries of existence.

However, I haven’t seen anything so bold in with the classic Disney characters. That’s the problem, no matter how awesome amalgam Donald Duck is, the question is who wins a death battle.

Donald just can’t kill Daffy. I’m not so sure Daffy blowing up the planet (he did this to Planet X as Duck Dodger) wouldn’t kill Donald.

By the way, add Daffy Duck to the list of planet-busters.

[Durkoala]

Not strange there’s a precedent for animators being drawn into the action in Looney Tunes. This is a cartoon franchise full of fourth-wall breaking. Occasionally also suggestions of surreality, existential crisis and comedic riffs philosophical quandaries of existence.

However, I haven’t seen anything so bold in with the classic Disney characters. That’s the problem, no matter how awesome amalgam Donald Duck is, the question is who wins a death battle.

Donald just can’t kill Daffy. I’m not so sure Daffy blowing up the planet (he did this to Planet X as Duck Dodger) wouldn’t kill Donald.

By the way, add Daffy Duck to the list of planet-busters.

I feel like I have to say that it was a function of his otherwise mostly unused spaceship that destroyed Planet X, not the duck himself.

[McNum]

Trauma was an amazing story. Expecially the fact that isn't the super robot that wins the fight, but the duck behind the mask. My favourite PKNA story, probably.

And... if we go before Timecrime, "standard" Paperinik weapons are free game. He would have Gyro Gearloose made weapons. Like freeze guns, invisibility cloack, the 313-x car with missiles... less galactic and time traveling powerhouse, and more cartoony Batman.
Yeah, Trauma was an amazing story. One and Donald spend the entire story trying to find a way to fight Trauma without being exposed to his fear waves, but in the end, the way to beat him was not to block the fear, but to conquer it. Not with a giant mech, not as masked hero. But as a normal little duck who found enough courage to say "No!" Donald won that fight, not Paperinik.


Not strange there’s a precedent for animators being drawn into the action in Looney Tunes. This is a cartoon franchise full of fourth-wall breaking. Occasionally also suggestions of surreality, existential crisis and comedic riffs philosophical quandaries of existence.

However, I haven’t seen anything so bold in with the classic Disney characters. That’s the problem, no matter how awesome amalgam Donald Duck is, the question is who wins a death battle.

Donald just can’t kill Daffy. I’m not so sure Daffy blowing up the planet (he did this to Planet X as Duck Dodger) wouldn’t kill Donald.

By the way, add Daffy Duck to the list of planet-busters.
True, a more realistic Donald would need a more realistic foe, I guess. Though I would not entirely count Donald out since he does have a Chronoparalyzer in his shield. Daffy can't Daffy around if he is frozen in time.

I suppose if you want a fairer fight, or at least a fight where the opponents make sense in context towards each other, you want Howard the Duck or Rocket Raccoon or something. Someone who's also, sort of a superhero and an anthropomorphic animal.

Honestly, I just want to see the Death Battle overview of Donald Duck. Just to see when Boomstick would start accusing it of being made up. Is it when Donald literally laughed Death in the face? Is it when Donald broke the Holy Grail by using it a bludgeon? Perhaps when Donald did Inception years before the movie? Or when learning that Donald has access to a star cruiser? The secret agent stuff is going to raise an eyebrow, too, especially when learning that the Agency's supercomputer is a personality scan of Donald because he's just that good.

Oh and the one time he fought The Black Knight whose armor was coated in the Universal Solvent, that can instantly destroy anything it touches, except diamonds. He got himself and the knight locked into Scrooge's diamond vault and waited for the armor to dissolve all the air in the room. Whoever asphyxiates first loses! Basically, Donald plays for keeps. If a battle ever came down to who just wanted it more, it's Donald. He does take the option most wouldn't consider if it'll let him win.

[Reddish Mage]

True, a more realistic Donald would need a more realistic foe, I guess. Though I would not entirely count Donald out since he does have a Chronoparalyzer in his shield. Daffy can't Daffy around if he is frozen in time.

I suppose if you want a fairer fight, or at least a fight where the opponents make sense in context towards each other, you want Howard the Duck or Rocket Raccoon or something. Someone who's also, sort of a superhero and an anthropomorphic animal.

Honestly, I just want to see the Death Battle overview of Donald Duck. Just to see when Boomstick would start accusing it of being made up. Is it when Donald literally laughed Death in the face? Is it when Donald broke the Holy Grail by using it a bludgeon? Perhaps when Donald did Inception years before the movie? Or when learning that Donald has access to a star cruiser? The secret agent stuff is going to raise an eyebrow, too, especially when learning that the Agency's supercomputer is a personality scan of Donald because he's just that good.


I wouldn't say Daffy is a bad opponent just because, ultimately, Daffy is unbeatable. The two have a great deal in common as comedic heroes and as the butt. Their powers will interact great with each other.

I wouldn't say Daffy is absolutely going to get the kill. Someone wants to claim you can't use Daffy's rocket that blew up planet X (I wouldn't be surprised if he has other BFGs though...like the lantern ring). Daffy is generally horrible at actually landing blows.

We can consider the possibility of an alternative ending. Does it make sense for Daffy to refuse to participate anymore after things get truly ridiculous and walk off the set (or the page or whatever)?

Great Death Battle fights are not just about who wins. In particular, I wouldn't be too attached to making sure your fighterwins. Let Donald be Donald to the extreme, let Daffy be Daffy, and the show will write itself.

[Lemmy]

I wouldn't say Daffy is a bad opponent just because, ultimately, Daffy is unbeatable. The two have a great deal in common as comedic heroes and as the butt. Their powers will interact great with each other.

I wouldn't say Daffy is absolutely going to get the kill. Someone wants to claim you can't use Daffy's rocket that blew up planet X (I wouldn't be surprised if he has other BFGs though...like the lantern ring). Daffy is generally horrible at actually landing blows.

We can consider the possibility of an alternative ending. Does it make sense for Daffy to refuse to participate anymore after things get truly ridiculous and walk off the set (or the page or whatever)?

Great Death Battle fights are not just about who wins. In particular, I wouldn't be too attached to making sure your fighterwins. Let Donald be Donald to the extreme, let Daffy be Daffy, and the show will write itself.For better or worse, DB has consistently considered "can't be killed" as an auto-win... Doomsday, Dante, Deadpool... All of their victories pretty much boiled down to "the other guy might be stronger, but this guy just can't be killed!". I actually like Donald more than Daffy, but by DB logic, he has no chance of winning.

Huh... Do all immortal characters have names that start with "D" (including Daffy)? :smallconfused:

[gooddragon1]

For better or worse, DB has consistently considered "can't be killed" as an auto-win... Doomsday, Dante, Deadpool... All of their victories pretty much boiled down to "the other guy might be stronger, but this guy just can't be killed!". I actually like Donald more than Daffy, but by DB logic, he has no chance of winning.

Huh... Do all immortal characters have names that start with "D" (including Daffy)? :smallconfused:

The will of D incarnate.

[Reddish Mage]

For better or worse, DB has consistently considered "can't be killed" as an auto-win... Doomsday, Dante, Deadpool... All of their victories pretty much boiled down to "the other guy might be stronger, but this guy just can't be killed!"

It sort of works as a rule doesn't it? If one character can't be killed, and the other can, whose going to win? You would think, somehow, eventually unkillable A will prevail against killable B.

You don't have to be stronger, faster, in any way. If your unkillable, so long as you are capable of a force that is deadly against your opponent, sooner or later you are going to prevail.

Add to that, the whole point of a Death Battle is that its a battle to the death, you need a real good justification for providing any outcome that doesn't involve one party dying. I think in the entire history of Death Battle we got 1 simo KO and 1 "other" resolution and both were joke match-ups.

[Keltest]

It sort of works as a rule doesn't it? If one character can't be killed, and the other can, whose going to win? You would think, somehow, eventually unkillable A will prevail against killable B.

You don't have to be stronger, faster, in any way. If your unkillable, so long as you are capable of a force that is deadly against your opponent, sooner or later you are going to prevail.

Add to that, the whole point of a Death Battle is that its a battle to the death, you need a real good justification for providing any outcome that doesn't involve one party dying. I think in the entire history of Death Battle we got 1 simo KO and 1 "other" resolution and both were joke match-ups.

I don't know that I would call Daffy vs Donald a joke matchup exactly, but it would definitely be firmly in the comedic side of DB. Frankly, I think the most likely ending of such an encounter is both characters getting sick of it and turning their powers on the DB team.

[Lemmy]

It sort of works as a rule doesn't it? If one character can't be killed, and the other can, whose going to win? You would think, somehow, eventually unkillable A will prevail against killable B.

You don't have to be stronger, faster, in any way. If your unkillable, so long as you are capable of a force that is deadly against your opponent, sooner or later you are going to prevail.

Add to that, the whole point of a Death Battle is that its a battle to the death, you need a real good justification for providing any outcome that doesn't involve one party dying. I think in the entire history of Death Battle we got 1 simo KO and 1 "other" resolution and both were joke match-ups.
In general, yes... But there are cases where it gets shady. e.g.: Dante x Bayonetta. While it's true that no enemy managed to kill Dante, he has been severely injured in the past... And Bayonetta killed a freaking god!

Doomsday vs Hulk... Meh... Doomsday has been beaten before and Hulk's attacks not only cause physical damage, they also irradiate immense amounts of gamma radiation. Doomsdays suffered so much from villain decay and worf effect that he isn't all that impressive anymore. I can accept the possibility that Doomsday would win over the Hulk, but I didn't find DB's take on it to be very convincing... But it wasn't absurd either and I don't particularly care, so whatever.

Deadpool vs Deathstroke... Yeah... That one there's not much to discuss. Deadpool not only regenerates really fast, he's downright immune to death, and despite his goofy personality, he's very skilled. He once single-handedly beat Taskmaster and a bunch of other hitmen... With his hands and feet literally handcuffed. Deathstroke might be better than him, but it not as much as DB seemed to think.

[Anteros]

I feel confident that Looney Tunes has done the "character gets killed and turns into a cartoon ghost/angel" gag with Daffy a few times. He's not invulnerable. If nothing else, it's definitely possible to beat him senseless which I would consider a win. Although Death Battle does tend to ignore things like that in favor of only considering a character's best feats.

[Kato]

The will of D incarnate.

Daffy D Duck.. Has a nice ring to it...

I'll agree with Daffy being very hard to finish but I feel like it would still make for an interesting fight. I'm trying to think of another opponent for Donald but come up short.. Though I feel there must be more famous ducks.

[Reddish Mage]

In general, yes... But there are cases where it gets shady. e.g.: Dante x Bayonetta. While it's true that no enemy managed to kill Dante, he has been severely injured in the past... And Bayonetta killed a freaking god!

Doomsday vs Hulk... Meh... Doomsday has been beaten before and Hulk's attacks not only cause physical damage, they also irradiate immense amounts of gamma radiation. Doomsdays suffered so much from villain decay and worf effect that he isn't all that impressive anymore. I can accept the possibility that Doomsday would win over the Hulk, but I didn't find DB's take on it to be very convincing... But it wasn't absurd either and I don't particularly care, so whatever.

Deadpool vs Deathstroke... Yeah... That one there's not much to discuss. Deadpool not only regenerates really fast, he's downright immune to death, and despite his goofy personality, he's very skilled. He once single-handedly beat Taskmaster and a bunch of other hitmen... With his hands and feet literally handcuffed. Deathstroke might be better than him, but it not as much as DB seemed to think.



Dante - I get he's been injured in some way he couldn't just regenerate, but is that where he is by the end? Also, we've established the word "god" doesn't mean anything until you can put stats to the term. Did Bayonetta kill something with regeneration? Some sort of immunity? What properties does her arsenal have that allowed her to kill an immortal? Lacking answers to those questions, whether its a "god" or "demon" or whatever, its just a big thing that got killed.

Doomsday - your argument is sounds sort of like Doomsday lately, undermines Doomsday past. I'd like to see the evidence why he can't regenerate after a Hulk gamma-radiation pounding though.


Deadpool - I think you take the analysis too seriously. Its meant to be a five minute analysis to introduce and highlight the characters, followed by a fight that they admit is both entertainment and to show how they think the powers will interact. Every post show they go into why they didn't use various things from the character match up (such as Sora's reflect) and while they often have a substantive answer (not really part of the arsenal, only see it in special circumstances, requires help) the fallback answer is "we don't have time to show everything."

Say Deadpool is a bad fight or a good fight. Saying its not exactly how you think it would go down is too much. Although I my recollection is Deadpool didn't seem THAT much outmatched. More like he was phoning it in.


I feel confident that Looney Tunes has done the "character gets killed and turns into a cartoon ghost/angel" gag with Daffy a few times. He's not invulnerable. If nothing else, it's definitely possible to beat him senseless which I would consider a win. Although Death Battle does tend to ignore things like that in favor of only considering a character's best feats.


The cartoon angel thing is very selective to the story. That's more very selective cases of vulnerability. Most of the time he's right back in the next scene or even mid-scene. Since the things that cause him to die are ordinary things his vulnerability in such cases either defies analysis or means some very specific thing in a specific circumstance kills Daffy (that Donald doesn't know about).

Beaten "senseless" happens relatively easily, but again he can shake it off just as easily. I don't see how getting beaten "senseless" for Daffy is any sort of win when he can come right back as he was immediately. This isn't like Voldemort losing his body and being technically alive and maybe in a decade he'll find a way to get a new body. This isn't Starscream getting eaten by Rainbow Dash. This is Daffy getting right back into the fight right away (most of the time) in the moment it takes to do a scene transition (whenever they want to do it that way).


Daffy D Duck.. Has a nice ring to it...

I'll agree with Daffy being very hard to finish but I feel like it would still make for an interesting fight. I'm trying to think of another opponent for Donald but come up short.. Though I feel there must be more famous ducks.

I think other opponents are not as good. Howard the Duck is really, really, weird, but just doesn't have the range of Donald. Howard is best for 4th wall breaking multi-dimensional hijinks, making Daffy a better opponent than Donald (although Daffy probably just has too many abilities).

That exhausts the top-line famous ducks. Look here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_ducks) if you think there's more but I think the next most famous is the Aflac duck.

The Aflac Duck in a Death Battle will sell a lot of insurance and not just survive devastating attacks, but thrive knowing his bills, car and home is taken care of, before succumbing to an onslaught beyond anything he has ever had to deal with.

There's always other anthropomorphic animals - Spider Ham!

Problem with Spider Ham is telling his origin story. I think originally he was said to be ordinary spider, bit by a radioactive pig. But another story shows him as an ordinary pig first. Also, I think other stories suggests Peter Porker was an anthropomorphic pig prior to acquiring Spider Ham powers.

[Kato]

That exhausts the top-line famous ducks. Look here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_ducks) if you think there's more but I think the next most famous is the Aflac duck.


That is indeed a poor list... but maybe we can switch from ducks to more general winged, apparently harmless creatures... Then we can use the most fearsome being...
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/zelda/images/1/1f/Cucco_%28Ocarina_of_Time%29.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/99?cb=20091222210146
in all of Hyrule! Immortal, rage filled, flying death!
No? Fine...


Anyone thinking we might get another kaiju fight in the future? I mean, we kind of did the biggest ones but there are many, many minor ones left.

[McNum]

Anyone thinking we might get another kaiju fight in the future? I mean, we kind of did the biggest ones but there are many, many minor ones left.
Can always go for giant mechs instead. But where to go after doing the Megazord vs. Voltron? Sure, you can always bring in a Gundam, but they aren't quite as well known outside of Japan.

Though speaking of giant monsters, he may not be kaiju sized, but I don't think Death Battle has done anything with King Kong yet. There's got to be a fellow medium sized monster to put the king of apes up against.

[Rater202]

The Toho King Kong movies(Of which King Kong versus Godzilla is the most well known) and Kong: Skull Island both have Kong as Kaiju sized.

Though if you want a Giant Robot fight...

M.E.G.A.S. X.L.R. versus Gurren Lagaan?(The two bot version so they're the same rough size. Keep it fair.)

[McNum]

The Toho King Kong movies(Of which King Kong versus Godzilla is the most well known) and Kong: Skull Island both have Kong as Kaiju sized.

Though if you want a Giant Robot fight...

M.E.G.A.S. X.L.R. versus Gurren Lagaan?(The two bot version so they're the same rough size. Keep it fair.)
I see that ending in a stalemate of infinitely expanding spirals and an infinite amount of plot relevant buttons appearing at an exponential rate. You know there's going to be a Giga Drill Breaker Breaker button in Megas.

[Lemmy]

Dante - I get he's been injured in some way he couldn't just regenerate, but is that where he is by the end? Also, we've established the word "god" doesn't mean anything until you can put stats to the term. Did Bayonetta kill something with regeneration? Some sort of immunity? What properties does her arsenal have that allowed her to kill an immortal? Lacking answers to those questions, whether its a "god" or "demon" or whatever, its just a big thing that got killed.
Well, it was a creature powerful enough to destroy the world and seemingly immortal, but Bayonetta was able to not only kill it, but also punch whatever was left of its corpse into the Sun. The thing is... Dante is powerful, but nothing says he's immortal. He doesn't seem to mind being impaled, but those attacks are all made by creatures weaker than him. I'm not sure we ever see him as some sort of immortal super-demon or anything, but it's been a while... In any case, I'm not saying that the result is necessarily wrong, but it's not as clear cut as "Dante is immortal, therefore he wins". Maybe in DMC2? I barely remember that game. Because it's awful.


Doomsday - your argument is sounds sort of like Doomsday lately, undermines Doomsday past. I'd like to see the evidence why he can't regenerate after a Hulk gamma-radiation pounding though.Again, I'm not saying the match is necessarily wrong... But I don't think Doomsday is clearly impossible to kill (for Hulk). At their strongest, both characters regenerate any damage... Except when they don't. Which is... Confusing... DB said Doomsday was immortal because at some point, someone said he couldn't be killed with physical attacks alone... Which I'm not sure it's true, since it's been quite a while since I saw a comic involving Doomsday... Specially one where he isn't quickly worfed into defeat... But in any case, what I'm saying is that Hulk's attacks do more than just physical damage. Hulk is even capable of hurting astral projections (although that is never quite well explained). In some versions, he actually absorbs energy and converts them into gamma radiation (in one version, Hulk is turned into a demon).

Anyway, once again, I don't necessarily disagree with the fight... I just think it's not as clear-cut as "Hulk is absolutely incapable of killing Doomsday".


Deadpool - I think you take the analysis too seriously. Its meant to be a five minute analysis to introduce and highlight the characters, followed by a fight that they admit is both entertainment and to show how they think the powers will interact. Every post show they go into why they didn't use various things from the character match up (such as Sora's reflect) and while they often have a substantive answer (not really part of the arsenal, only see it in special circumstances, requires help) the fallback answer is "we don't have time to show everything."

Say Deadpool is a bad fight or a good fight. Saying its not exactly how you think it would go down is too much. Although I my recollection is Deadpool didn't seem THAT much outmatched. More like he was phoning it in.Nah... That one is one of the few matches I think DB gets very right. Deathstroke is probably more skilled than Deadpool, but simply can't deal any permanent damage. I just vaguely remember the post-fight explanation implying that Deathstroke was vastly superior to Deadpool, which I don't think is the case. That's the only thing I disagreed with... And even then, I might be misremembering.

I'm not saying Dante vs Bayonetta and Hulk vs Doomsday were wrong (both could've gone either way, IMO), just that there should've been more than "this guy is immortal, so he wins".

[Dragonus45]

Well, it was a creature powerful enough to destroy the world and seemingly immortal, but Bayonetta was able to not only kill it, but also punch whatever was left of its corpse into the Sun. The thing is... Dante is powerful, but nothing says he's immortal. He doesn't seem to mind being impaled, but those attacks are all made by creatures weaker than him. I'm not sure we ever see him as some sort of immortal super-demon or anything, but it's been a while... In any case, I'm not saying that the result is necessarily wrong, but it's not as clear cut as "Dante is immortal, therefore he wins". Maybe in DMC2? I barely remember that game. Because it's awful.



As a long time supporter that Bayonetta should really win the Death Battle I do feel like I should mention that the summon she used to win the fight with Jubileus, The Creat requires two witches to summon. Now she did spend that entire boss fight beating a creature that is implied through lore snippets to be a capitol G Deity who's death sends the entire universe very out of whack as it was actually really important that that thing existed. Also the creator of both has said that she would win a fight, and they share a universe anyways so that sort of disqualifies them from Death Battle in the first place.

[Anteros]

Dante's creator hasn't had control of him for a long time, so his opinion can't really be taken as indisputable.

[Dragonus45]

Dante's creator hasn't had control of him for a long time, so his opinion can't really be taken as indisputable.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Lemmy]

I love both characters, so I don't really care which one wins... But I'll say their creator is a bit biased, considering he's currently producing games for only one of those characters.

[Anteros]

What does that have to do with anything?

1. They're biased as already said.

2. Dante is a lot stronger now than when he was originally written.

If Stan Lee said Spider Man could beat up the Hulk would you believe him?

[Rater202]

1. They're biased as already said.

2. Dante is a lot stronger now than when he was originally written.

If Stan Lee said Spider-Man could beat up the Hulk would you believe him?

Considering that Spider-Man's web fluid is strong enough to keep the Hulk pinned? Yes.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, it was a creature powerful enough to destroy the world and seemingly immortal, but Bayonetta was able to not only kill it, but also punch whatever was left of its corpse into the Sun. The thing is... Dante is powerful, but nothing says he's immortal. He doesn't seem to mind being impaled, but those attacks are all made by creatures weaker than him. I'm not sure we ever see him as some sort of immortal super-demon or anything, but it's been a while... In any case, I'm not saying that the result is necessarily wrong, but it's not as clear cut as "Dante is immortal, therefore he wins". Maybe in DMC2? I barely remember that game. Because it's awful.

Again, I'm not saying the match is necessarily wrong... But I don't think Doomsday is clearly impossible to kill (for Hulk). At their strongest, both characters regenerate any damage... Except when they don't. Which is... Confusing... DB said Doomsday was immortal because at some point, someone said he couldn't be killed with physical attacks alone... Which I'm not sure it's true, since it's been quite a while since I saw a comic involving Doomsday... Specially one where he isn't quickly worfed into defeat... But in any case, what I'm saying is that Hulk's attacks do more than just physical damage. Hulk is even capable of hurting astral projections (although that is never quite well explained). In some versions, he actually absorbs energy and converts them into gamma radiation (in one version, Hulk is turned into a demon).

Anyway, once again, I don't necessarily disagree with the fight... I just think it's not as clear-cut as "Hulk is absolutely incapable of killing Doomsday".

Nah... That one is one of the few matches I think DB gets very right. Deathstroke is probably more skilled than Deadpool, but simply can't deal any permanent damage. I just vaguely remember the post-fight explanation implying that Deathstroke was vastly superior to Deadpool, which I don't think is the case. That's the only thing I disagreed with... And even then, I might be misremembering.

I'm not saying Dante vs Bayonetta and Hulk vs Doomsday were wrong (both could've gone either way, IMO), just that there should've been more than "this guy is immortal, so he wins".

I actually do thing Bayonneta should have pulled out the win against Dante. Just going by their analysis. Also because Dante's 'speed' feat is also really stupid.

[Celestia]

The Toho King Kong movies(Of which King Kong versus Godzilla is the most well known) and Kong: Skull Island both have Kong as Kaiju sized.

Though if you want a Giant Robot fight...

M.E.G.A.S. X.L.R. versus Gurren Lagaan?(The two bot version so they're the same rough size. Keep it fair.)
Gurren Lagaan is absolutely the worst possible combatant for Death Battle to do. One of its powers is explicitly the ability to do the impossible. No matter what opponent Simon is up against, even if that opponent is the very laws of physics, Simon will still win.

It's even more unfair to pit something that stupidly overpowered against a mech who's sole plot thread each episode is that Coop does something stupid and breaks it. As far as I recall, there wasn't a single episode of that show where Megas was actually fully functional. :smalltongue:

[Kato]

I keep coming across Megas especially in relation to Gurren Lagann.. Since I never saw the former: is it worth watching?
But yes, Gurren Lagann is just to crazy an opponent to fight at peak power. At least with Simon piloting it.

I've been wondering for a while if you could make an interesting death battle with the Doctor.. It seems to me a little hard to do.

[Rater202]

I keep coming across Megas especially in relation to Gurren Lagann. Since I never saw the former: is it worth watching?
But yes, Gurren Lagann is just too crazy an opponent to fight at peak power. At least with Simon piloting it.

I've been wondering for a while if you could make an interesting death battle with the Doctor. It seems to me a little hard to do.

Gurren Lagann paved the way for Crazy, over the top and ridiculous Giant Robot Stuff...

...But it was only because Megas obliterated the Mountain in the way that there could be a road to pave.

M.E.G.A.S. was a highly advanced Alien War Mech from thousands of years in the future. Stolen by the Human resistance and sent back in time to the beginning of the War... except the cockpit/head was destroyed and they overshot their mark. It spent decades at the bottom of the "everything is two bucks" pile at a junkyard in Jersey City, New Jersey until it was purchased, for two bucks, by a fat guy named Coop.

Coop somehow managed to repair it(replacing the missing head with a hotrod that has been modified with countless gaming peripherals) and actually managed to make it better--some of the weapons don't work anymore, others work differently than intended, some are missing, and some were actually instaled by Coop and were never in the machine until he got it(The Jammer, for example, is a weaponized Karaoke Machine). Coop is also the only person who has any idea what any of the buttons do, and between that and the modifications he made, Kiva,the one who was meant to pilot in the future,is met with no end of frustration(Several episodes involve her trying to activate one of Megas weapons using a holographic interface or telling Coop todo the same from the driver's seat only for that weapon to not be there anymore or to have a differant function--Notably, and EMP missle had been turned into a refrigerator.)

However, Megas has a demonstrated ability to do anything, even warping reality to accomplish so--In one episode Coop combines Megas with the bots of a group of Voltron/Power Rangers knockoffs and it explicitly mentioned that there's no way that should have worked. (He actually damaged their mechs in the process, but on the other hand, it let him kill their Big Bad.)

Other features of Megas are the "Context Sensitive Button" that has a different label and does a differant thing each time it's used--which could have been explained by Coop modifying Megas, and he knew to work on it... Except in One Episode, he pushes it twice, with the label being "The exact same button Coop Pressed Ten minutes ago" which proceeded to do something differant than it had before.

(Notable Features for Death Battle's Purposes include buttons labeled 'Destroy the World, Smite The World, Destroy the World Worse, and Save the World") and the Wave Motion Gun. (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/megasxlr/images/8/88/Wave_Motion_Gun.png/revision/latest?cb=20170506132147)*(Megas is bigger on the inside to a degree surpassed only by the TARDIS itself.)

Basically, a Fight Between Megas and Gurren Lagann becomes a constant escalation of increasingly large and over the top weapons and possibilities and it could honestly go either way.

*Yes. Megas somehow contains The Space Battleship Yamato inside itself.

[Traab]

Rater is right, the two bots are both built along similar lines. Determination and reality warping powers that allow their pilots to win. Yes, even then. The only problem being, megas is obviously built along a much lower tier of power. While he may have HAD a destroy the world button, I dont think it was ever used, and even if it had been, gurren at its peak is like, the size of half the universe or something. So that button would remove its little toe then fizzle out. Yes the argument can be made that it would keep evolving to match, but even in a reality warping contest they would have to stick with whatever level of feats either has been seen to pull off. So chances are the fight would go something like this.

/insert lots of yelling and explosions as both bots start from standard size and power up to exceed the other.

/coop "Ok you psycho bastard, take THIS world destroying blast!!!" /hits THE BUTTON

/simon "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!!!!!!!!!!" /gurren laggen swells into immensity, engulfing the milky way then even further. There is a tiny flea speck blip on the bottom of its little toe

/coop "Ooooh heck." /squash

[Rater202]

Rater is right, the two bots are both built along similar lines. Determination and reality warping powers that allow their pilots to win. Yes, even then. The only problem being, megas is obviously built along a much lower tier of power. While he may have HAD a destroy the world button, I dont think it was ever used, and even if it had been, gurren at its peak is like, the size of half the universe or something. So that button would remove its little toe then fizzle out. Yes the argument can be made that it would keep evolving to match, but even in a reality warping contest they would have to stick with whatever level of feats either has been seen to pull off. So chances are the fight would go something like this.

/insert lots of yelling and explosions as both bots start from standard size and power up to exceed the other.

/coop "Ok you psycho bastard, take THIS world destroying blast!!!" /hits THE BUTTON

/simon "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!!!!!!!!!!" /gurren laggen swells into immensity, engulfing the milky way then even further. There is a tiny flea speck blip on the bottom of its little toe

/coop "Ooooh heck." /squash

To befair, I did specifically state that it'd be a match up between regular Gurren Lagann and Megas. Gurren and Lagann, not the Arc Gurren, which isa space ship thatGurrn Lagann turned intoa Giant Robot that it itself pilots, nor Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann, the same done with a Moon Sized Warship that needs fifteen other pilots, and most certainly not Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann or Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, which strictly speaking are only possible in the Super Siral Pocket Universe that they fought the Anti-Spiral King in and aren't technically Mecha.

Just the Basic two mecha combo. They're roughly the same size, so it should be a fair fight.

[McNum]

Would splitting off Lagann be a winning move for Gurren-Lagann? Could it take over Megas? And if it did, what would a combined Megas-Lagann be like? Other than apocalyptic and similar words.

I mean Megas is very conveniently missing a head.

[Celestia]

Would splitting off Lagann be a winning move for Gurren-Lagann? Could it take over Megas? And if it did, what would a combined Megas-Lagann be like? Other than apocalyptic and similar words.

I mean Megas is very conveniently missing a head.
Lagaan can explicitly combine with any machine.

[Rater202]

I mean Megas is very conveniently missing a head.

Then what do you call the Hot-Rod sitting on its shoulders?

[Maryring]

Then what do you call the Hot-Rod sitting on its shoulders?

The most souped up car in the history of forever?

[McNum]

The most souped up car in the history of forever?
That's a good point. Is Megas a giant robot with a car for a head or a Hot-Rod with some very, very unusual after-market parts?

[Rater202]

According to the theme song, it's either a Giant Robot or a Giant Robot Car.

In addition to being the theme, the line "chicks did giant robots" was mentioned in the series proper in relation to Megas.

On the other hand, most of the time Coop takes the full Mecha out instead of just the car part(which does detach and can be used as a regular Car, when Separate, Megas can be operated using a DDR Pad and power gloves, but Coop, being rather fat, can't keep that up for long) including just waking it across the highway(and getting caught in traffic despite being able to fly) and even getting impounded once.

[McNum]

It's that time again. Time for a Death Battle!

https://youtu.be/z8mQs8OOjJs

Eh, I'm okay with that. Leon winning it on speed an experience seems fair. Frank may be very creative, but Leon has pretty much seen it all at this point.
Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate. Oh yes, this could be good. I don't know who'll win, but I do know it's going to be a weird fight.

[Dragonus45]

Who won doesn’t matter all that much to me. But the, “l’ve covered wars.” “I’ve fought in wars.” Exchange was perfect.

[Kato]

I wasn't very invested in the fight but it was fun enough.

Next week I consider more interesting but I'm afraid of some people getting... too passionate?

[Traab]

I wasn't very invested in the fight but it was fun enough.

Next week I consider more interesting but I'm afraid of some people getting... too passionate?

Meh, its comic books, I dont think anyone around here cares about those. :smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

My familiarity with Fate is from Young Justice, can the mainline Fate be knocked back out of the host readily? Strange doesn't stop being Sorceror Supreme ever, but Fate is only Nabuu when under the influence.

[Lemmy]

Are Fate and Strange really popular enough for things to get passiomate? They have always felt like secondary characters that are supposedly really important in-universe, but quite forgettable to audiences...

[Rynjin]

The last time I read a Doctor Strange comic was because it was holding the new Iron Fist series hostage for the last couple of issues.

Didn't really endear me to the guy.

[Rater202]

Twenty to one odds that this end with them accidentally fusing into Doctor Strangefate.

I give it 20 and not 10 because making Strangefate from just those two would require Db to have failed to do research on Strangefate beyond the fact that he existed once.

(Doctor Strangefate, from Amalgam comics, is a merger of not only DC's Fate and Marvel's Strange, but also Marvel's Charles Xavier and possible DC's Baron Winters)

[Reddish Mage]

Are Fate and Strange really popular enough for things to get passiomate? They have always felt like secondary characters that are supposedly really important in-universe, but quite forgettable to audiences...

I don't see how you can say that after seeing Benedict Cumberbatch as Dr. Strange. Also, his comic counterpart is a cosmic power unto himself.

Doctor Fate is pretty powerful himself, but Fate is controlled by the helmet and the principles of order, I haven't seen him able to do the sorts of things Dr. Strange can get away with. Fate also has a pretty glaring weakness in that he can't dispell magic that's already in place. Dr. Strange can do exactly that with the comic-version Eye of Agamotto.

[Devonix]

My familiarity with Fate is from Young Justice, can the mainline Fate be knocked back out of the host readily? Strange doesn't stop being Sorceror Supreme ever, but Fate is only Nabuu when under the influence.

The Helmet getting removed or the Host dieing is actually the worst possible outcome for Doctor Strange. The Host is actually a power limiter to keep him in check. Helmet comes off and Nabu goes full on Lord of Order

[Lemmy]

I don't see how you can say that after seeing Benedict Cumberbatch as Dr. Strange. (...)
The movie is pretty good and was quite successful, in no small part thanks to Cumberbatch's amazing acting, but I don't think a single film is enough to get people overly passionate about the characters... And it doesn't seem like either of these are particularly popular with the comic readers.


(...) Also, his comic counterpart is a cosmic power unto himself.

Doctor Fate is pretty powerful himself, but Fate is controlled by the helmet and the principles of order, I haven't seen him able to do the sorts of things Dr. Strange can get away with. Fate also has a pretty glaring weakness in that he can't dispell magic that's already in place. Dr. Strange can do exactly that with the comic-version Eye of Agamotto.I don't dispute how powerful they are... Only that the characters are popular enough for the debate to get too heated. I'm sure they have a handful of die-hard fans he, but I doubt it'll be anywhere close to the most polemic fights.

Honestly, I have zero idea of how this battle could go. Like most magic-based characters, Dr.Fate and Dr.Strange are so inconsistent in what they can do, that I can't say anything solid about their powers. I never followed either character other than whatever appearances they made on titles of characters I actually cared about, so I don't know much of anything very specific about them other than their general schtick and a few details I got here and there... The last time I read *Dr.Strange* comic was... That story where he and Doom battle other sorcerers for the title of Sorcerer Supreme. And I don't think I've ever read a Dr.Fate title.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't dispute how powerful they are... Only that the characters are popular enough for the debate to get too heated. I'm sure they have a handful of die-hard fans he, but I doubt it'll be anywhere close to the most polemic fights.

If you want a polemic I'm just wrapping up watching all of Dragon Ball Z Kai and can add some tidbits to various character's abilities. Nothing that really changes the info mix, although I now have more specific evidence that power levels are what they can do is really inconsistent. Babidi measures Vegeta's Super Saiyan the ship at "3,000 killis" which Dabra says "200 to 300 is enough to destroy a planet." We know Vegeta can blow up a planet in base form way back in the beginning so that really makes no sense with the idea that Super Saiyan applies a 50x multiplier. Also Goku complains he can't handle a 10 ton weight in base form post-cell saga, despite doing a lot of stuff indicating he can lift far more than that.

Cell doesn't make his "I can destroy the Solar System" comment in the Japanese version at least but I recall it was in the dub in original Z when I watched it all those years ago. Buu is a terror to "the entire universe" but it is said he does this by "destroying planets" and we see him going one planet at a time (although he can do this rapidly).

The Buu saga says some very silly things about the heroes (and Buu) if you consider the implications of some of the moves we see Gotenks and Vegito pull off. Buu (and the former two characters) sometiems seem to be working with Loony-Tunes physics.


Honestly, I have zero idea of how this battle could go. Like most magic-based characters, Dr.Fate and Dr.Strange are so inconsistent in what they can do, that I can't say anything solid about their powers.

That's basically any reality warper. Also, per comments, its true about a lot of physical characters too.

In fact, I've argued that practically all Death Battle characters suffer from some level of inconsistent characterization about what they can and cannot do in the source material.

[Rater202]

Bit of Trivia on Cumberbatch's Strange: Unbelievable Gwenpool has Doctor Strange observe Gwenpool's memories and he's tickled pink that, in a universe where the Heroes of his world are fictional characters, he's got a major motion picture where he's played by Cumberbatch.

[Lemmy]

If you want a polemic I'm just wrapping up watching all of Dragon Ball Z Kai and can add some tidbits to various character's abilities. Nothing that really changes the info mix, although I now have more specific evidence that power levels are what they can do is really inconsistent. Babidi measures Vegeta's Super Saiyan the ship at "3,000 killis" which Dabra says "200 to 300 is enough to destroy a planet." We know Vegeta can blow up a planet in base form way back in the beginning so that really makes no sense with the idea that Super Saiyan applies a 50x multiplier. Also Goku complains he can't handle a 10 ton weight in base form post-cell saga, despite doing a lot of stuff indicating he can lift far more than that.

Cell doesn't make his "I can destroy the Solar System" comment in the Japanese version at least but I recall it was in the dub in original Z when I watched it all those years ago. Buu is a terror to "the entire universe" but it is said he does this by "destroying planets" and we see him going one planet at a time (although he can do this rapidly).

The Buu saga says some very silly things about the heroes (and Buu) if you consider the implications of some of the moves we see Gotenks and Vegito pull off. Buu (and the former two characters) sometiems seem to be working with Loony-Tunes physics.Uh... Did you have any doubts about DBZ power levels being completely inconsistent? DB Super is particularly egregious in how inconsistent it is. And Buu does kinda have a comedy-cartoon thing going... I mean, his very first appearance is a pink-fat-blob in a genie (?) outfit.... And he's defeated the first time by... Becoming friends with Mr.Satan.

I still don't see why people find the "can destroy the solar system" claim so absurd... Cell is FAR more powerful than the Androids... Who are FAR more powerful than Trunks (when he first came to the past), who is FAR more powerful than Freeza (and his even stronger father), who could destroy planets without any effort even in his weakest form... Just like Vegeta could do before he even reached Earth.. "Destroying the whole solar system" is completely fitting to the power-scaling we see in DBZ.

It's like Superman flying (and supposedly fighting) at FTL speed, but then failing to evade lightning... Or scales of power above everyone else, but then gets beaten by Wonder Woman simply because she knows martial arts. He can bench-press a planet, but then struggles to lift much lighter objects... A couple years ago, Mr."Infinity Strength" is completely overpowered by Wraith! Hell! In a recent story, Superman is defeated by loud whistling noise! And not some magic/super-powerful whistle either, just Batman whistling.

So if you want to go "look how inconsistent this character is", be aware that two can play that game. :smallwink:


That's basically any reality warper. Also, per comments, its true about a lot of physical characters too.

In fact, I've argued that practically all Death Battle characters suffer from some level of inconsistent characterization about what they can and cannot do in the source material.
Magical-users are worse in that not only the intensity of their powers is completely inconsistent (like most other super heroes), but also what exactly they can do... Unlike, let's say, Order of the Stick, where we have general rules thanks to the author using D&D 3.5 as a guideline, magic-users from comics have no limitation other than whatever the writer wants at the moment and, occasionally, very few extremely vague limitations like "can't interfere with the natural order" or whatever... They can feel like characters from the Silver Age.

[Forum Explorer]

I still don't see why people find the "can destroy the solar system" claim so absurd... Cell is FAR more powerful than the Androids... Who are FAR more powerful than Trunks (when he first came to the past), who is FAR more powerful than Freeza (and his even stronger father), who could destroy planets without any effort even in his weakest form... Just like Vegeta could do before he even reached Earth.. "Destroying the whole solar system" is completely fitting to the power-scaling we see in DBZ.


Because physics basically. Also math.

Physics because, well how do you destroy a cloud? If you punch a cloud so hard it's dispersed, well have you actually destroyed it? Or did you just move it? The sun is like that, with the added benefit of it's own mass will pull itself back together. It's not a solid object that can be split apart. Adding energy to it just makes it hotter. And you can't grab it to pull it apart any more then you could fog. Plasma isn't a gas, but it has the consistency of gas.


Math because the sun is actually just that big. All of the Earth is nothing in comparison. We are more then a million times smaller then the sun. A while back Rater gave a power level of busting a planet 10 times greater bigger then our own. Here's the post with the conclusions I came to:




Didn't someone a few pages ago calculate how power levels are complete BS, and that they don't scale properly at all? I mean, sure Cell is stronger then Freeza. Freeza is a planet buster. (Also I wouldn't count that as casually blowing it up. Wait, he blew up Namek in his Final Form. Which one are you thinking of?) That means Cell is also a planet buster. But like I said way back, blowing up a sun is a different kettle that might very well be impossible. Besides the fact that the sun is a completely different structure then a planet operating under different physics to boot, the sun is 1.3 Million times bigger then the Earth.

So yeah, let's look at power levels for a second, as much as I absolutely despise the concept. Going from your math of Freza's first form, blowing up the sun would take approximately 68.9 Billion power (which is wrong because Stars aren't planets and would actually require much much more force to do anything to). According to this (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:The_real_MOST_ACCURATE_list_of_power_levels) website, Super Perfect Cell only has 1.3 Billion power. Even Super Buu at his absolute maximum power is calculated to be 48 Billion. Which is still far below the low-balled estimated power level needed to destroy the Sun.

And this is the only post I'm doing on power levels. I really do hate dealing with them as it ruins my enjoyment of DBZ. So while you are free to keep talking about them, I'm not wasting any more energy on them.

Besides that, being far more powerful then the last villain doesn't mean you are multiplicative or exponentially more powerful. Let's say someone had 100 000 more power then you. You'll get stomped by them right? After all, the difference of a few thousand was more then enough for Goku to ragdoll Nappa around.

[HolyDraconus]

Explain the math of bench pressing a planet and lifting infinity.

[Forum Explorer]

Explain the math of bench pressing a planet and lifting infinity.

No. Because I'm not talking about that character.

[Mikemical]

Predictable. Leon is a walking "rolling a nat 20 in the most critical roll of the session", not to mention that he has fought people and creatures using improvised weapons before. Asides from the few psychopaths that got creative(like the freeze gun clown), Frank's never had to deal with something like a bio-mass T-Rex, Gigantes, Tyrants, Lickers, hell, not even zombie dogs. Like Ada puts it in her report, "Leon's been through worse and always comes up smelling like roses." Curious that they mentioned Leon's body armor but never addressed it in the fight.

On Fate VS Strange, well, that really depends how DB wants to handle magic translating from one universe to the other.

[Lemmy]

Because physics basically. Also math.

Physics because, well how do you destroy a cloud? If you punch a cloud so hard it's dispersed, well have you actually destroyed it? Or did you just move it? The sun is like that, with the added benefit of it's own mass will pull itself back together. It's not a solid object that can be split apart. Adding energy to it just makes it hotter. And you can't grab it to pull it apart any more then you could fog. Plasma isn't a gas, but it has the consistency of gas. With enough energy you can disperse it far enough... Maybe it reforms due to gravity, but at that point all planets that were around are Not that it matters either, since I'm pretty sure "punching hard enough to break the Sun" is something that DBZ physics not only probably allow, but also something perfectly in scale with the power displayed by the characters.


Because Math because the sun is actually just that big. All of the Earth is nothing in comparison. We are more then a million times smaller then the sun. A while back Rater gave a power level of busting a planet 10 times greater bigger then our own. Here's the post with the conclusions I came to:Goku during the Cell games has an official power level of 4 trillions (without using the Kame-hame-ha). During the saiyan saga, Vegeta had a PL of mre 18k. And he could already destroy planets.

Vegeta destroys a planet before even arriving at Earth... And he doesn't put any effort into it either. (https://youtu.be/Bls9ic2zZ3o?t=1m19s)

Even if we discount the filler episodes (not sure why, since we apparently count every Superman story under the Sun other than Silver Age Superman... And the filler is still canon in the anime. And the same version of the character, rather than an amalgamation of various alternate versions of Vegeta), Vegeta using his Galic Gun attack could destroy Earth (he explicitly aims it downwards to force Goku to take it, since simply evading would destroy Earth. Which is completely consistent with Piccolo/Muten Roshi being able to Destroy the moon despite being waaaaaaay weaker than Vegeta). So, being nice and assuming the Galic-Gun somehow doubles Vegeta's full power, and that by sheer coincidence, that's the bare minimum of energy needed to destroy a planet, that's a PL of 36k... Round it up to 40k and... It's Still less than 10% of Freeza's PL (550k) when he destroyed Planet Vegeta.... And less than 1/100,000 of Goku's power during the Cell games.

Brolly destroys a Galaxy when he's a baby with a power level of 10,000... Now, I'll be nice and assume he somehow used his super-saiyan multiplier (100x) (makes sense), so that gives him a PL of 1 million! Hell! Make it 100 million! It's still waaaaay weaker than the characters in the Cell saga... It's weaker than Final Form Freeza! Admittedly, Brolly didn't completely annihilate the galaxy, but he did break everything in it... And left enough residual energy for Goku to feel it years later.


Besides that, being far more powerful then the last villain doesn't mean you are multiplicative or exponentially more powerful. Let's say someone had 100 000 more power then you. You'll get stomped by them right? After all, the difference of a few thousand was more then enough for Goku to ragdoll Nappa around.I don't know why you think that's a point in favor of your argument... We know the power levels in the Cell saga are billions of times greater than those of the Saiyan saga... If even a 10~25% increase in PL in numbers already makes that much of difference in power (to the point where the weaker guy can't react or even see what the stronger one does), imagine what a difference of millions means! Or one of billions!

[Devonix]

I personally give this to Doctor Fate. Strange is powerful, but a lot of his power comes from preperation. Caught off guard he doesn't have access to a lot of stuff.

[Reddish Mage]

Goku during the Cell games has an official power level of 4 trillions (without using the Kame-hame-ha). During the saiyan saga, Vegeta had a PL of mre 18k. And he could already destroy planets.

Where the heck did that official number come from?



Brolly destroys a Galaxy when he's a baby with a power level of 10,000... Now, I'll be nice and assume he somehow used his super-saiyan multiplier (100x) (makes sense), so that gives him a PL of 1 million! Hell! Make it 100 million! It's still waaaaay weaker than the characters in the Cell saga... It's weaker than Final Form Freeza! Admittedly, Brolly didn't completely annihilate the galaxy, but he did break everything in it... And left enough residual energy for Goku to feel it years later.

May I recall we got on this conversation because I posted evidence that the numbers in Dragon Ball Z itself were widely inconsistent.

Now you want to bring in Broly and argue from his powerlevel in a non-canon movie and extrapolate linearly from what the movie says he can do with a power level of 10,000 (which no one else with that meager power level can apparently do).

The very fact that powerlevels go bonkers during Frieza and Cell Saga shows they are non-linear. In the real fight, if you fight someone twice as strong or fast than you its an immediate curb stomp. In Dragon Ball you have expotential differences being made up all the time. Our much weaker fighters every so often come in and make a temporary contribution.

How the heck does Super Saiyan Goku get hurt by a rock casually thrown by Krillin (while they are fishing during the prelude to Cell Games) yet not get utterly destroyed the moment he lets his guard down and a real blow land?

How can post-Cell Games base-form Goku struggle with a 10 ton weight? He has handled far more than that when he was gravity training let alone by having mountains dropped on him.

The numbers make no sense, have never made any sense and it really makes no sense that Broly can destroy an entire galaxy while Buu is limited to one planet at a time.

[Kato]

Can we not effing do this again?! Or at least go back and read the last twenty pages on the subject before you go down that road again.. :smallsigh:


I'm not deeply familiar with Strange or Fate. From my limited knowledge, I think Fate has more raw power, being a god and all and way more experience but Strange is.. Well, not wiser but more creative? Yeah, he can also just push out crazy power feats but it's unlikely they'll not refer to such things as the end of his movie to showcase his strengths. I guess my uninformed, biased opinion leans towards Stephen but I'm happy with either outcome as of now.

[Lemmy]

I personally give this to Doctor Fate. Strange is powerful, but a lot of his power comes from preperation. Caught off guard he doesn't have access to a lot of stuff.
Is it? He always seems to pull some random spell out of his ass... Then again, so does doctor fate for that matter... And Zatana... And Illyana... And pretty much every toher magic-user hero. :smallsigh:

I honestly curious about this match, because I sincerely have no idea of how it could go. And I want to see what kind of feats these guys pulled and what sort of logic and calculations DB uses.

[Lemmy]

Where the heck did that official number come from? Bunch of Shonen Jumps, character guides and articles over the years. I had to dig around the internet a little to find number that were not just some random person's calculations, though.


How the heck does Super Saiyan Goku get hurt by a rock casually thrown by Krillin (while they are fishing during the prelude to Cell Games) yet not get utterly destroyed the moment he lets his guard down and a real blow land? "Rule of Funny". DBZ has its moments of cartoon physics... Specially with the more comedy-inclined characters (usually Goku and Krillin). I'm pretty sure there are scenas of Bulma of all people hurting Z-warriors with slaps and punches. Because it's funny. Let's not forget DB started as a comedy/adventure series and then gradually progressed into the kung-fu battle shonen series we know today.


How can post-Cell Games base-form Goku struggle with a 10 ton weight? He has handled far more than that when he was gravity training let alone by having mountains dropped on him.Hey, I won't dispute that DB numbers (specially DB Super's) make no sense. All I said is that they're not the only numbers that make no sense... Superman's "I can move Faster-Than-Light but not Faster-Than-Lightning is an example... Or Flash's... Well... Everything.


The numbers make no sense, have never made any sense and it really makes no sense that Broly can destroy an entire galaxy while Buu is limited to one planet at a time.Huh? I think in that one moment Brolly used his full Super Saiyan power for just a moment (which would be about 1 million)... That actually fits the story, since 10k isn't much even for the saiyans at the time, just absurdly high for a just-born baby. Buu was "limited" to one planet at a time because he prefered to destroy them one at a time. He wasn't destroying stuff because he wanted to clear the galaxy or something. He simply enjoyed destroying stuff. Destroying planets he can't even see probably isn't as funny... And destroying all of them at the same time would end his fun.

Buu also isn't the exactly known for his foresight and rationale. He just flies around blasting whatever he wants.

[Devonix]

Is it? He always seems to pull some random spell out of his ass... Then again, so does doctor fate for that matter... And Zatana... And Illyana... And pretty much every toher magic-user hero. :smallsigh:

I honestly curious about this match, because I sincerely have no idea of how it could go. And I want to see what kind of feats these guys pulled and what sort of logic and calculations DB uses.

Fate vs strange is kind of a magic version of Superman vs Batman.

Being doctor fate dumps all of this knowledge and power into your body ontop of whatever you already know and have. You don't need to go and research a spell or look up an incantation or study an enemy. The knowledge of the universe just gets dumped into your mind. And your body gets boosted to natural super human levels without needing protection spells.


Doctor strange by contrast is always studying and researching. Making pacts with demons. Seeking out ancient text. Now strange is amazingly powerful and can contend with fate. It's just that a lot of his big stuff requires prep.

[Forum Explorer]

With enough energy you can disperse it far enough... Maybe it reforms due to gravity, but at that point all planets that were around are Not that it matters either, since I'm pretty sure "punching hard enough to break the Sun" is something that DBZ physics not only probably allow, but also something perfectly in scale with the power displayed by the characters.

Goku during the Cell games has an official power level of 4 trillions (without using the Kame-hame-ha). During the saiyan saga, Vegeta had a PL of mre 18k. And he could already destroy planets.

Vegeta destroys a planet before even arriving at Earth... And he doesn't put any effort into it either. (https://youtu.be/Bls9ic2zZ3o?t=1m19s)

Even if we discount the filler episodes (not sure why, since we apparently count every Superman story under the Sun other than Silver Age Superman... And the filler is still canon in the anime. And the same version of the character, rather than an amalgamation of various alternate versions of Vegeta), Vegeta using his Galic Gun attack could destroy Earth (he explicitly aims it downwards to force Goku to take it, since simply evading would destroy Earth. Which is completely consistent with Piccolo/Muten Roshi being able to Destroy the moon despite being waaaaaaay weaker than Vegeta). So, being nice and assuming the Galic-Gun somehow doubles Vegeta's full power, and that by sheer coincidence, that's the bare minimum of energy needed to destroy a planet, that's a PL of 36k... Round it up to 40k and... It's Still less than 10% of Freeza's PL (550k) when he destroyed Planet Vegeta.... And less than 1/100,000 of Goku's power during the Cell games.

Brolly destroys a Galaxy when he's a baby with a power level of 10,000... Now, I'll be nice and assume he somehow used his super-saiyan multiplier (100x) (makes sense), so that gives him a PL of 1 million! Hell! Make it 100 million! It's still waaaaay weaker than the characters in the Cell saga... It's weaker than Final Form Freeza! Admittedly, Brolly didn't completely annihilate the galaxy, but he did break everything in it... And left enough residual energy for Goku to feel it years later.

I don't know why you think that's a point in favor of your argument... We know the power levels in the Cell saga are billions of times greater than those of the Saiyan saga... If even a 10~25% increase in PL in numbers already makes that much of difference in power (to the point where the weaker guy can't react or even see what the stronger one does), imagine what a difference of millions means! Or one of billions!

Sure, but how? No matter how hard I punch a cloud, it's not leaving the atmosphere. Also I'm pretty sure DBZ has had anyone who touches the sun be destroyed.

I discount filler because it gets discounted by, well everything else in DBZ. By everything else I'm talking about the manga, DBZ Kai, stuff like that. And again, I'm not talking about Superman, though I'd say it's harder to do with Superman because the comics are an absolute mess. The is no order at all to what they are doing.

Hey if you want to discount that guys calculations, that's your prerogative. Just like it's mine to believe him over you. :smalltongue:

As for me, well I discount 100% of the information out of those extra things and interviews and the like. Because as Reddish Mage already pointed out, Power levels are clearly BS. The exact number, all the calculations and crap? It's pointless. It has no impact on the story. I'd argue it has a negative impact on the story. And as far as I'm aware, the whole concept of power levels lasted for like two arcs. The Sayains, and the Freeza arc. Before that it was never mentioned. After that it was never mentioned (I think and not counting Movies).

And yeah, I prefer logic and common sense over character boasting. If someone can destroy the sun, then show me that. If they can't, and there is no evidence to suggest that they can. Then I'm going to consider it boasting.

[Rynjin]

I mean, it's not just hard punching, there's clearly some kind of metaphysical oomph to it as well, or there wouldn't be shockwaves strong enough to destroy the universe or screams loud enough to rip holes out of a pocket dimension.

You're basically arguing "it doesn't seem physically possible" about a series whose author is not a scientist and gives zero ****s about any physics based plausibility in his series. It's silly.

[Knaight]

The movie is pretty good and was quite successful, in no small part thanks to Cumberbatch's amazing acting, but I don't think a single film is enough to get people overly passionate about the characters... And it doesn't seem like either of these are particularly popular with the comic readers.

At least two films - Dr. Strange is also one of the characters with the most screen time and narrative focus in Infinity War, which was fairly successful and had a pretty good number of viewers. He also shows up incidentally in at least one more movie, being a bit character in Thor: Ragnarok.

I've only seen about a quarter of the MCU movies (if that), so I can't really comment on the upper bound.

[Mikemical]

in no small part thanks to Cumberbatch's amazing acting

Any reptilian pretending to be human is amazing acting.

[Lemmy]

Sure, but how? No matter how hard I punch a cloud, it's not leaving the atmosphere. Also I'm pretty sure DBZ has had anyone who touches the sun be destroyed.

I discount filler because it gets discounted by, well everything else in DBZ. By everything else I'm talking about the manga, DBZ Kai, stuff like that. And again, I'm not talking about Superman, though I'd say it's harder to do with Superman because the comics are an absolute mess. The is no order at all to what they are doing.

Hey if you want to discount that guys calculations, that's your prerogative. Just like it's mine to believe him over you. :smalltongue:

As for me, well I discount 100% of the information out of those extra things and interviews and the like. Because as Reddish Mage already pointed out, Power levels are clearly BS. The exact number, all the calculations and crap? It's pointless. It has no impact on the story. I'd argue it has a negative impact on the story. And as far as I'm aware, the whole concept of power levels lasted for like two arcs. The Sayains, and the Freeza arc. Before that it was never mentioned. After that it was never mentioned (I think and not counting Movies).

And yeah, I prefer logic and common sense over character boasting. If someone can destroy the sun, then show me that. If they can't, and there is no evidence to suggest that they can. Then I'm going to consider it boasting.

An impact strong enough can disperse non-solid matter away. An impact or explosion with enough force could theoretically accelerate molecules fast enough to leave the gravitational pull of whatever celestial bodies they find themselves on.

You keep saying "Power levels are BS"... Have you ever watched DBZ? In 99% of the fights, the winner is the guy with the highest power level! What the show (and its characters) tell us is that power level isn't all that matters. But even a nigh-immortal super-being with unlimited stamina, absurd toughness, amazing regenerative powers and the the techniques of nearly all main characters in the series still lost to a 12-yo because that 12-yo had a higher PL.

And while characters don't mention "power levels" after the Freeza saga, they still mention "power" all the time. You can assume the characters were just boasting... But then you gotta assume everything that isn't explicitly shown is just boasting... Like "infinity pages" and Specter "weighting as much as eternity". What annoys me in these discussions is how the level of scrutiny for what should and should not be considered is completely different for each side...

"Can destroy the solar planet" is apparently too much, even if it completely fits the power scaling of the show... But "has infinity strength" is acceptable, even though it goes against everything shown in comics, movies and shows... Because... He lifted a magic book that supposedly has infinity pages (according to Superman himself and no one else).