The problem with Clerics in 5e

[Merudo]

I find Clerics, as a whole, to be well balanced for level 1-9. The one issue I have is Druid/Ranger/Bard having the potential to absolutely outshine the at healing with the access to Healing Spirit.

Overall through, Clerics are good for level 1-9.

However, the Cleric is quite underwhelming for level 10 to 16. It suffers from three problems:

1) Underwhelming spell list at higher levels compared to the Wizard/Bard/Druid.

2) A weak level 10-11 feature (Divine Intervention)

3) Total absence of new abilities for level 11-16, with only the absolutely mediocre upgrade to Destroy Undead (there are 4 CR2 undead & 2 CR3)

Problem 1) has been described before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555430-Go-to-spells-for-clerics-at-higher-levels). There are essentially a handful of good high level spells for Cleric, with the few choices available been mostly weak. It's problematic - spellcasters essentially only gets 2 spell slots from level 11 to 16, and for the Cleric, the extra power is mostly unnoticeable.

Problem 2) is pretty bad. Druids get a Circle feature, Wizards get Arcane Tradition feature, Bards get Expertise, Magical Secrets, & upgrade to Bardic Inspiration, Fighters get an extra attack at level 11. But the Cleric? The Cleric gets a unreliable ability, that he can only uses at most once a week, that's the equivalent of a single Cleric spell (which are underwhelming).

Problem 3) really hurts both the power and flavor of the class. Most other classes get a powerful new ability at level 14, typically based on their subclass. Wizards, Druids, and Sorcerers get Arcane Tradition/Circle/Sorcerous Origin feature at level 14. Bards get both Magical Secrets & Bard College features. The Cleric gets essentially nothing.

Each of these three problems, on their own, would be manageable. However, together they make the Cleric class really uninspiring through level 10-16. Really, the Cleric's power progression through level 10-16 is as bad as the Ranger's - although the Cleric's strong progression at earlier levels makes it less noticeable. There is also absolutely nothing differentiating the Cleric subclasses at these levels - domain spells stop at level 9, and the next Cleric domain ability is gained at level 17.

I think some fixes are in order. Hopefully, new books will provide Clerics will new powerful spells to fix 1). Divine Intervention needs sort of extra umph - the ability to replicate spells from other spell lists with it would be nice, as would an increase to its success rate. As for problem 3), it think the easiest fix would be to give Clerics the extra Channel Divinity at level 14 - it would also help distinguish the subclasses by encouraging the use of domain specific Chanel Divinity.

[Tanarii]

Divine intervention is not weak. It can be used to cast any Cleric spell of any level with a 65% chance after 1 min, an 87% chance after 2 min, and a 95% chance after 3 minutes. This means you can cast any cleric spell that isn't a combat Use 1/week, or can be cast prior to combat, starting at level 10. Including True Resurrection, Gate, Astral Projection, and Conjure Celestial, to mention a few good uses.

[Unoriginal]

Objectively, there is no problem with Clerics in 5e. There is no need for fixes.

Subjectively, it depends on individual preferences and experiences. Modify the game to please you more, if you wish, it's your prerogative.

Doesn't help that you have demonstrated none of your points, only stated them as if they were inherent truth. Not to mention how your 2nd point relies entirely on the assumptions of the 1rst

[Matrix_Walker]

Divine intervention is not weak. It can be used to cast any Cleric spell of any level with a 65% chance after 1 min, an 87% chance after 2 min, and a 95% chance after 3 minutes. This means you can cast any cleric spell that isn't a combat Use 1/week, or can be cast prior to combat, starting at level 10. Including True Resurrection, Gate, Astral Projection, and Conjure Celestial, to mention a few good uses.

I muat have missed the bit where extra time invested increased your chances of success beyond Level%... could you direct me?

[EvilAnagram]

Divine intervention is not weak. It can be used to cast any Cleric spell of any level with a 65% chance after 1 min, an 87% chance after 2 min, and a 95% chance after 3 minutes. This means you can cast any cleric spell that isn't a combat Use 1/week, or can be cast prior to combat, starting at level 10. Including True Resurrection, Gate, Astral Projection, and Conjure Celestial, to mention a few good uses.

Good points. Not sure about the time investment in Divine Intervention, but its success rate increases every level anyways.

I'd also mention that the spells that apparently aren't worth considering include Blade Barrier, Heal, Heroes' Feast, Word of Recall, Fire Storm, Plane Shift, Resurrection, Antimagic Field, Earthquake, Holy Aura, Mass Heal, and True Resurrection. Sure, Wizards are better at damage and control, but Clerics have far superior buffing and healing, and they're far from lacking in the other categories.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I muat have missed the bit where extra time invested increased your chances of success beyond Level%... could you direct me?

I don't think you've missed anything, no matter how long you pray your chances are only 10-19% per long rest.

On topic, I don't think it's even a bad thing that clerics higher level spells are "mediocre" because upcasting lower level spells can still be very useful.

[Tanarii]

I muat have missed the bit where extra time invested increased your chances of success beyond Level%... could you direct me?
There is no limit on trying round after round until you succeed. The chance of success is 1-((1-DI)^(rounds)). Therefore a level 10 cleric trying for one minute (10 rounds) has a cumulative chance of 1-((.9)^(10)) of succeeding, or a 65% chance of success. At the level you get it, with only a 10% chance of success per round you have a 99.5% chance of success in 5 minutes of praying to your God, or basically a certainty.

It's only using it in an emergency / time limited situation that you're taking a serious chance.

[ProsecutorGodot]

There is no limit on trying round after round until you succeed. The chance of success is 1-((1-DI)^(rounds)). Therefore a level 10 cleric trying for one minute (10 rounds) has a cumulative chance of 1-((.9)^(10)) of succeeding, or a 65% chance of success. At the level you get it, with only a 10% chance of success per round you have a 99.5% chance of success in 5 minutes of praying to your God, or basically a certainty.

It's only using it in an emergency / time limited situation that you're taking a serious chance.

"If your deity intervenes, you can’t use this feature again for 7 days. Otherwise, you can use it again after you finish a long rest."

You get one attempt per long rest, succeed or fail.

It would be pretty nice if it wasn't limited by long rest but it would certainly take the "Miracle" feeling away from the ability.

[Pex]

Technically Divine Intervention doesn't have to be a cleric spell. That is only a suggested appropriate happenstance. The player doesn't choose the effect. The DM does. It can be as powerful as he wants. You have to trust he doesn't screw you over by having it be the spell Thaumaturgy, but it can be a glorified plot point to enhance the narrative of a powerful effect or a Deus Ex Machina of grand proportion. When the evil army is attacking the mountain might suddenly be discovered to have been a volcano all along and explode, destroying most if not all of the enemy in lava and ash.

[Merudo]

Technically Divine Intervention doesn't have to be a cleric spell. That is only a suggested appropriate happenstance. The player doesn't choose the effect. The DM does. It can be as powerful as he wants. You have to trust he doesn't screw you over by having it be the spell Thaumaturgy, but it can be a glorified plot point to enhance the narrative of a powerful effect or a Deus Ex Machina of grand proportion. When the evil army is attacking the mountain might suddenly be discovered to have been a volcano all along and explode, destroying most if not all of the enemy in lava and ash.

I think Divine Intervention is similar to the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Tides of Chaos ability, in that both require buy-in from the DM be useful. That's a design flaw - most DMs don't really know how to properly balance the game, and expecting them to do the game designer's job is unfair.

In the case of Divine Intervention, only Cleric spells are specifically allowed - it is written that "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate". I'd argue that if Divine Intervention was supposed to do much more than that, it would have a lengthier entry - just compare the description of the Wish spell to the bare bone paragraph of Divine Intervention.

[ThePolarBear]

I think Divine Intervention is similar to the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Tides of Chaos ability, in that both require buy-in from the DM be useful. That's a design flaw - most DMs don't really know how to properly balance the game, and expecting them to do the game designer's job is unfair.

Sorry, the DM is called to only do the DM's job, nothing more: describe what happens when there's something interesting that can go on and provide the group with fun and engaging situations.
It's not a question of balance - Wild Magic is a dramatic tool, not a "MOAR DPS!!!" feature exacly as is Divine Intervention. Knowing when it's appropriate to call for the first weights only on the shoulders of a DM, and describing what happens with the second can only fall on the shoulders of the one who knows exactly how the world works and who has the duty to perform the NPC part, the DM.

There's nothing unfair to have here and expecting a DM to be perfect all the time is your shortcoming, not anyone else.

[BillyBobShorton]

Objectively, there is no problem with Clerics in 5e. There is no need for fixes.

Subjectively, it depends on individual preferences and experiences. Modify the game to please you more, if you wish, it's your prerogative.

Doesn't help that you have demonstrated none of your points, only stated them as if they were inherent truth. Not to mention how your 2nd point relies entirely on the assumptions of the 1rst
All truth.

Clerics are awesome and just because XG says Healing Spirit isn't a Cleric spell doesn't mean it CAN'T be. I instantly changed that to a cleric spell because everything about it screams holy healing to me and my players.

[BillyBobShorton]

Total absence of new abilities at level 11-16?? Are you nuts? Have you seen the high level spells they get??? Seriously... just because the little graph next to the class chart doesn't have a paragraph filling every level-up box doesn't mean they don't "get" anything. Two ASI's/Feats, for one thing, so there goes that arguement. And level 6, 7, 8, and 9 spells?? Worst point to say "this class doesn't get sh*t" ever, dude.

[sophontteks]

I'm pretty sure this is another healing spirits is OP thread covered up in a lot of silly fluff. Just house rule away healing spirits. Solved.

[JackPhoenix]

Technically Divine Intervention doesn't have to be a cleric spell. That is only a suggested appropriate happenstance. The player doesn't choose the effect. The DM does. It can be as powerful as he wants. You have to trust he doesn't screw you over by having it be the spell Thaumaturgy, but it can be a glorified plot point to enhance the narrative of a powerful effect or a Deus Ex Machina of grand proportion. When the evil army is attacking the mountain might suddenly be discovered to have been a volcano all along and explode, destroying most if not all of the enemy in lava and ash.

Gate leading to a mustering place for hundred of angels is a cleric spell. Horde of celestial superbeings who are pre-instructed and conveniently gathered in one location the deity wouldn't allow making gates to normally is just as impressive, and leads to less collateral damage. Usually.

[ZorroGames]

Seems like not a problem to me.

Played clerics from my first character in Original “3 thin booklet” days” predominately until 5e (still playing Clerics, Fighters, Wizards, plus new classes) and I love that healing can not be your main focus as a successful Cleric and that the healing mission can be shared by others.

Hardly as bad as described.

[GorogIrongut]

Here we go again...

I've got no desire to really enter the majority of this dead horse conversation. That said, I disagree with your views on the definition of Divine Intervention. The player describes what kind of intervention s/he would like, but it doesn't have to be that way. The Deity decides... A possible effect is any spell available to a cleric. It could theoretically be anything else the DM deems appropriate. Which offers a lot wider latitude of effects

Divine Intervention is the non casting, uncounterspellable Cleric version of Wish. They get the possibility of it at level 10, with it only becoming a certainty at level 20. I have zero problem with that level of variability. To get the possibility of a Wish level effect at level 10 is significant.

And before you say that it requires a DM buy in for it to be beneficial... so does Wish. Especially as when it's successful, the effect that occurs is controlled by an entity that has a vested interest in you if not downright caring for you, knows more than you about what's happening both now and in the imminent future and theoretically wants things to turn out for the best for you and theirselves. Generally with Wish, it's just the DM looking for the biggest loophole to screw you over with.

[Tanarii]

"If your deity intervenes, you can’t use this feature again for 7 days. Otherwise, you can use it again after you finish a long rest."

You get one attempt per long rest, succeed or fail.

It would be pretty nice if it wasn't limited by long rest but it would certainly take the "Miracle" feeling away from the ability.
:smalleek: :smallredface:

Okay, I don't know how that's even possible. I've gone back and forth with people on ways to use this feature in this very forum. And no one corrected any of us. I'm going to have to go find that old thread now.

(My campaign ends at level ten so I'm not surprised I've never had a player point out I'm doing it wrong.)

Edit: okay, the previous discussions were centered around it's usefulness if cast 1/day, with a cumulative chance of success across a week. Mainly around True Resurrection. But it would still be useful for Gate. Not sure when I switched my thinking to it being usable every round until it was successful. Again, totally :smalleek: :smallredface:

[Merudo]

Total absence of new abilities at level 11-16?? Are you nuts? Have you seen the high level spells they get??? Seriously... just because the little graph next to the class chart doesn't have a paragraph filling every level-up box doesn't mean they don't "get" anything. Two ASI's/Feats, for one thing, so there goes that arguement. And level 6, 7, 8, and 9 spells?? Worst point to say "this class doesn't get sh*t" ever, dude.

Clerics get two spell slots per long rest between level 11 and 16. Two. And they are level 6 & 7 spells, not 8 or 9.

Do people really think casting a Heal and a Firestorm is that impactful? These are hardly encounter winning spells.

Everyone get ASIs, so I wouldn't count those.

All other spell casters both get better spells AND a cool subclass specific ability, so yeah, the Cleric gets the short end of the stick.

[Citan]

Clerics get two spell slots per long rest between level 11 and 16. Two. And they are level 6 & 7 spells, not 8 or 9.

Do people really think casting a Heal and a Firestorm is that impactful? These are hardly encounter winning spells.

Everyone get ASIs, so I wouldn't count those.

All other spell casters both get better spells AND a cool subclass specific ability, so yeah, the Cleric gets the short end of the stick.
When you need, to contribute heavy damage to creatures in a large scale, while preserving friends Fire Storm is great.
Whether that happens often or not depends on your party. If you have an Evoker Wizard in your group or is a whole party playing ranged and blocking enemy movement, this would probably be lackluster. In parties with several melee friends holding separated chokepoints? It's great.

When you are facing a very powerful enemy, and you know one of your allies that is currently down and turn coming after enemies could end the encounter, casting Heal to ensure he'll be up when his time comes is as impactful as anyone may wish (fact of the day: when you regularly face creatures that can inflict 30+ damage in a single turn, Healing Words will be an utter waste of resources as soon as the ally you want to heal is not acting immediately after the instant he gets the heal. Unless of course you don't care about that guy's contribution to the fight and just wants to avoid his death).
The fact that could can't even understand that says a lot about your blinders.

[EvilAnagram]

Clerics get two spell slots per long rest between level 11 and 16. Two. And they are level 6 & 7 spells, not 8 or 9.
They get their eighth-level spell slots at level 15. So do wizards. And all full casters. Go ahead and look it up. I'll wait.


Do people really think casting a Heal and a Firestorm is that impactful? These are hardly encounter winning spells.
Firestorm isn't because it's only there to keep the cleric useful offensively, not to make them the dominant blaster.

Heal, however, can absolutely win an encounter. I run three- to four-person parties with difficult to deadly encounters, and a well-placed Heal can turn a potential failure cascade into a victory.

And you're ignoring Heroes' Feast and Holy Aura at the levels in question, which are insanely powerful encounter-winning spells.


All other spell casters both get better spells AND a cool subclass specific ability, so yeah, the Cleric gets the short end of the stick.
By level 16, you have an 80% 16% chance of casting the Cleric version of Wish once per day. At every level post 10, your chances increase. That's pretty potent, especially if you use it out of combat.

Oh, and Destroy Undead advances gradually because later levels of undead frequently conjure or control weaker undead in large numbers. The CR increase of Destroy Undead keeps up with the likely minions of CR-appropriate baddies.

[CantigThimble]

By level 16, you have an 80% chance of casting the Cleric version of Wish once per day. At every level post 10, your chances increase. That's potent enough for me.

80%? It's 16%.

[EvilAnagram]

80%? It's 16%.

You're right. I was thinking d20 instead of percentile.

[Tanarii]

You're right. I was thinking d20 instead of percentile.
We're on a roll in this thread 😂😂😂

Its about 56% after a week of trying at 10th level, and something like a 96% after a month. Still useful for very out of combat (aka downtime) high-power effects. Bring allies back to life when the body was destroyed, and opening a pathway to another plane, are two that strike me as most likely to be very useful on that kind of timeline.

[EvilAnagram]

We're on a roll in this thread 😂😂😂

Its about 56% after a week of trying at 10th level, and something like a 96% after a month. Still useful for very out of combat (aka downtime) high-power effects. Bring allies back to life when the body was destroyed, and opening a pathway to another plane, are two that strike me as most likely to be very useful on that kind of timeline.

True. It's also useful for a chance at a significant combat boost with an out-of-combat spell. You can use it to get an upcast Aid or a Heroes' Feast without losing the material components. If you get it, great! If not, you just use your slots to get the benefit.

[Matrix_Walker]

I've always looked at Divine Intervention as a desperation move... I never considered it to use it daily for a resurrection or the like.

oops.

[EvilAnagram]

I've always looked at Divine Intervention as a desperation move... I never considered it to use it daily for a resurrection or the like.

oops.

It's much riskier as a desperation move. I like it as a way to maybe get a solid boon that you can live without, but still want.

[Pex]

Gate leading to a mustering place for hundred of angels is a cleric spell. Horde of celestial superbeings who are pre-instructed and conveniently gathered in one location the deity wouldn't allow making gates to normally is just as impressive, and leads to less collateral damage. Usually.

Yes, and . . .?

Where did I say it couldn't be a cleric spell in effect? I only said it didn't have to be.

[JackPhoenix]

Yes, and . . .?

Where did I say it couldn't be a cleric spell in effect? I only said it didn't have to be.

It was an example where you can get much more powerful effect than what you'd get from an normal spell when there's helpful deity assisting you.

[EvilAnagram]

We're on a roll in this thread 😂😂😂

Giant in the Playground: The Place for Experts
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[GorogIrongut]

I've always looked at Divine Intervention as a desperation move... I never considered it to use it daily for a resurrection or the like.

oops.

I look at it a lot like would any believer would nowadays. You ask for plenty of help in your daily prayers (I know I do). When the deity chooses to intervene, great. When they don't, they obviously consider you capable of handling the situation on your own.

Any time, I've hit level 10 as a cleric, I've been using Divine Intervention EVERY day. And it has been a HUGE boon, in ways that our party had never expected. My favourite times were when the DM said that I felt a distinct connection with my deity, that there was a rule communion between the two of us... but that nothing overt seemed to happen as a result of it. I'd go to use it the next day and the DM tells me to continue asking for assistance but that nothing tangible will come of it until a weeks out.
Once we got some distance, the DM took great glee in telling us what the Divine Intervention had obtained for us and how it changed the flow of current events around us.

[Pex]

I've always looked at Divine Intervention as a desperation move... I never considered it to use it daily for a resurrection or the like.

oops.


It's much riskier as a desperation move. I like it as a way to maybe get a solid boon that you can live without, but still want.

It's Ye Olde "god call" that was an uncommon house rule pre 3E. When the situation is desperate, the party is about to TPK or otherwise lose a battle they Can't Or The World Is Doomed, a PC prays for a miracle. Doesn't even have to be the cleric. If the DM allows for such a thing he'll call for a percentile roll of 5% or must roll 00 or get a Natural 20 on a d20. My college group used it. I did it once when we discovered we were fighting Vecna. Got the Natural 20. Deus Ex Machnica saved the day. 3E provided the spell Miracle, so "god call" went away since something official existed.

[Luccan]

It's Ye Olde "god call" that was an uncommon house rule pre 3E. When the situation is desperate, the party is about to TPK or otherwise lose a battle they Can't Or The World Is Doomed, a PC prays for a miracle. Doesn't even have to be the cleric. If the DM allows for such a thing he'll call for a percentile roll of 5% or must roll 00 or get a Natural 20 on a d20. My college group used it. I did it once when we discovered we were fighting Vecna. Got the Natural 20. Deus Ex Machnica saved the day. 3E provided the spell Miracle, so "god call" went away since something official existed.

I saw a similar suggestion as a solution for a "Paladin Falls" trap someone suggested on the 3.X forum. Basically, there was a debate about whether a Paladin would fall if they killed a child as the only way to save a city of thousands or if letting thousands die but sparing the child would preserve their oaths (and all the permutations you could have of that binary argument). Someone suggested A Third Way; the paladin offers a sincere prayer to their deity to intercede. From there, the paladin falling is technically the decision of their god. I thought it was far more interesting in terms of RP than the usual paladin traps.

[Unoriginal]

Well I for one am pleased that there is no paladin trap this edition.

[Pex]

It was an example where you can get much more powerful effect than what you'd get from an normal spell when there's helpful deity assisting you.


Ok.

Misinterpretation of intent happened.

[Luccan]

Well I for one am pleased that there is no paladin trap this edition.

Agreed. I always felt such situations should be instigated by agreement of player and DM, but usually it was because either the person shouldn't have been playing a paladin (playing them as a classic murderhobo instead) or the dm hated that player/paladins in general

[Willie the Duck]

I'm pretty sure this is another healing spirits is OP thread covered up in a lot of silly fluff. Just house rule away healing spirits. Solved.

Let's be generous and say that the OP simply hasn't had the same positive experience with advancing a cleric from level 1 to level 20 as the consensus view would indicate. This I can see happening pretty easily. Early Clerics play a certain way (often 'mace guy with Bless and Healing Word'). Mid-level clerics play a certain way (often a Long-Rest recharging combat machine involving Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians). And then level 10 or so rolls around and that schtick doesn't get much better (just cheaper, resource-wise) and you have to transition closer to traditional spellcaster role, and that's a challenge. The wizard and company, while not better, do not have that transition as much, and can basically be played much the same way throughout portions of their career. For this reason, I can absolutely see someone not liking how the cleric advances without it being just another traditional 'why class X can't have nice things' tirades over the same 3-4 usual suspect spells or the like.

[sophontteks]

Thats a nice observation Willie the Duck. Sounds reasonable.

[Unoriginal]

Let's be generous and say that the OP simply hasn't had the same positive experience with advancing a cleric from level 1 to level 20 as the consensus view would indicate. This I can see happening pretty easily. Early Clerics play a certain way (often 'mace guy with Bless and Healing Word'). Mid-level clerics play a certain way (often a Long-Rest recharging combat machine involving Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians). And then level 10 or so rolls around and that schtick doesn't get much better (just cheaper, resource-wise) and you have to transition closer to traditional spellcaster role, and that's a challenge. The wizard and company, while not better, do not have that transition as much, and can basically be played much the same way throughout portions of their career. For this reason, I can absolutely see someone not liking how the cleric advances without it being just another traditional 'why class X can't have nice things' tirades over the same 3-4 usual suspect spells or the like.

OP played an evil Cleric who didn't want to reveal he was evil, in Curse of Strahd, and was displeased by his performance compared to the Blast Wizard.

Said Wizard apparently found a library countaining all the spells.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Said Wizard apparently found a library countaining all the spells.

And had plenty of time/money to scribe those spells. I don't know the module, but you'd need quite a bit of time and cash to scribe a decent number of spells at higher levels. 10 hours/250 gp for a 5th level spell (half that if evocation and scribing an evocation spell) makes a dent in how many you can know.

[Willie the Duck]

OP played an evil Cleric who didn't want to reveal he was evil, in Curse of Strahd, and was displeased by his performance compared to the Blast Wizard.

Said Wizard apparently found a library countaining all the spells.

I am aware of that thread (although I did not remember that that poster was the same as this one), but was answering based on a poster-neutral position. If the OP wants to keep grinding that axe, let them. No one here is remotely important in the grand scheme of the game (self included), so the only long-term value this thread has is if someone newish to the game runs across it and gets some useful advice. I hope mine qualifies.

[Merudo]

And had plenty of time/money to scribe those spells. I don't know the module, but you'd need quite a bit of time and cash to scribe a decent number of spells at higher levels. 10 hours/250 gp for a 5th level spell (half that if evocation and scribing an evocation spell) makes a dent in how many you can know.

The library with every spell in the game is in the same area where there is a treasury with 6,600 ep and 21,000 sp, plus various gems and other treasures.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The library with every spell in the game is in the same area where there is a treasury with 6,600 ep and 21,000 sp, plus various gems and other treasures.

That's a little over 4k GP. There are something like 820 spell levels of wizard spells in the PHB. That's 41k GP to copy into your book, and 68.333 24-hour days. See the problem yet?

[Merudo]

That's a little over 4k GP. There are something like 820 spell levels of wizard spells in the PHB. That's 41k GP to copy into your book, and 68.333 24-hour days. See the problem yet?

CoS is an adventure for levels 1-10, so no level 6+ spells. So that's more like ~250 spell levels of wizard spells in the PHB.

A Wizard also unlikely to need all these spells - mostly, the Wizard will get every ritual, all the must-have for each spell level, and a few situational useful spells.

In any case this is not relevant to the present discussion - the current thread is about Cleric (lack of) progression from level 10-16, which I argued is highly problematic.

[Willie the Duck]

That's a little over 4k GP. There are something like 820 spell levels of wizard spells in the PHB. That's 41k GP to copy into your book, and 68.333 24-hour days. See the problem yet?

Let's just make it 41k GP in treasure, or better yet, cash pre-converted into spellbook-making components, followed by a 3 month ocean voyage stipulated as downtime. Heck, just have the adventure state that friendly wizard X, grateful for their actions, will scribe into any PC wizard's spellbook any spell in the PHB they can cast but don't have. Where does that leave us? -- an argument that the Cleric feels lackluster in comparison to the unusual case of a wizard with all their limitations removed. If that's the argument one wants to make, be honest about it (and see how many people consider that a normal situation which one really needs to be concerned with).

But that was a different thread. Let's see if this one is a more reasoned comparison.

[Merudo]

Let's just make it 41k GP in treasure, or better yet, cash pre-converted into spellbook-making components, followed by a 3 month ocean voyage stipulated as downtime. Heck, just have the adventure state that friendly wizard X, grateful for their actions, will scribe into any PC wizard's spellbook any spell in the PHB they can cast but don't have. Where does that leave us? -- an argument that the Cleric feels lackluster in comparison to the unusual case of a wizard with all their limitations removed. If that's the argument one wants to make, be honest about it (and see how many people consider that a normal situation which one really needs to be concerned with).



For the record, I was arguing against Citan's claim that the typical level 7 Wizard has not found ANY spell to copy into his spell book through his entire career:



So.
We were talking about a lvl 7 Wizard apparently, since Greater Invisibility.
Such a Wizard has learned 6+2*6 spells naturally, so he knows 18 spells.

To rebut his argument, I gave the example of an official campaign (Curse of Strahd) for which 9 spellbooks are obtainable, plus a library containing every spell in the PHB. So in Curse of Strahd at least, it's fair to assume the level 7 Wizard will know quite a few extra spells.

I have since realized that CoS may give more spellbooks than usual, although no one really gave me an example of a module where this is the case.

Still, it was Citan who made a poorly reasoned comparison - he compared the spell list of the average Cleric to the spell list of a Wizard who never used one his greatest strength (the ability to copy spells into the spellbook). I just said the Wizard probably copied a few extra spells by level 7.

[Unoriginal]

I have since realized that CoS may give more spellbooks than usual, although no one really gave me an example of a module where this is the case.

Yes I did.

[Willie the Duck]

For the record, I was arguing against Citan's claim that the typical level 7 Wizard has not found ANY spell to copy into his spell book through his entire career:


Then let the record so show. I'm fine with stating that it was another thread. I answered your original post as though it didn't exist.

It does appear, however, that you have some people that do not trust that you are going to be looking at a cleric with anything approaching an objective eye. That's useful for you to know.

[Citan]

For the record, I was arguing against Citan's claim that the typical level 7 Wizard has not found ANY spell to copy into his spell book through his entire career:

To rebut his argument, I gave the example of an official campaign (Curse of Strahd) for which 9 spellbooks are obtainable, plus a library full of spells. So in Curse of Strahd at least, it's fair to assume the level 7 Wizard will know quite a few extra spells.

I have since realized that CoS may give more spellbooks than usual, although no one really gave me an example of a module where this is the case.
And that argument is sadly not more receivable today than it was earlier.
Besides the plain reality which is that not everyone plays official campaigns, the fact that such official campaigns provide tips to make some spell available to players does not make it a guaranteed boon to them. It's up to the DM whether to describe it, in a way that players may get interested into it, and that they can indeed grab that loot. You could complain as a player, maybe, if a DM just didnt present this chance for whatever reason (forgot, or forbade, or made it so that you knew about it but had no mean to get hands on it), but the fact remains that DM rules everything, and has no obligation (fortunately) to follow any scripture to the letter, official or not.

So in essence, every extra spell a Wizard can learn is DM fiat.
From my experience, it's safe to assume a lvl 7 Wizard will know a handful of extra spells of 1st or 2nd levels that he was really interested in, because as said it's "Wizard loot" so any proper DM should start giving some out when other people start having fun with magical equipment. Anything more though? You're a lucky player among the crowd on Earth, whatever explains how you got the other spells, it's a DM fiat from a nice DM.

So, had you been presenting a simple feedback about your experience as a Death Cleric in that specific campaign, I would have seen no problem.
But you made the thread about "systemic problem" of the Cleric class, examining it from a pure theorycraft point of view.
Once you get there, then you must deny any specific implementation case, so arguing on the basis of one specific campaign is illegitimate.
It's as void of value as if I had been saying that "Divine Intervention is the best class feature in the game", based on one game in which it would have been ruled as a "early-Wish" kind of spell. Because that was made great thanks to DM being extra nice on latent potential.

Nothing more than that. :)

[Segev]

Well I for one am pleased that there is no paladin trap this edition.

Oh, come now. I'm sure you can build Astolpho in 5e!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/3/3b/Rider_of_black.png

[Merudo]

Yes I did.

I assumed you were trolling me, to be honest.



In ToA, you can get a decent bunch of different scrolls, but maybe ~4 spellbooks at best, if you really search for them.

I counted 15 spellbooks in the adventure:

- Wakanga's spellbook
- 4 spellbooks from Red Wizards of Thay
- Voj's spellbook
- Ras Nsi’s spellbook
- Devlin’s spellbook
- Withers spellbook
- 6 spellbooks in the Red Library

[Unoriginal]

I assumed you were trolling me, to be honest.



I counted 15 spellbooks in the adventure:

- Wakanga's spellbook
- 4 spellbooks from Red Wizards of Thay
- Voj's spellbook
- Ras Nsi’s spellbook
- Devlin’s spellbook
- Withers spellbook
- 6 spellbooks in the Red Library

I admit I was mistaken, I missed some of them. The 6 of the Red Library don't really count, though, because it's nearly required to beat the final dungeon's boss to get (or fleeing in a pretty counter-intuitive manner), and by RAW the four spellbooks of the Red Wizards, as well as Voj's own, all have the same content (though a DM can change that if they wish, of course).

So that's 5 before the end of the adventure, 11 in total.

[Tanarii]

I counted 15 spellbooks in the adventure:

- Wakanga's spellbook
- 4 spellbooks from Red Wizards of Thay
- Voj's spellbook
- Ras Nsi’s spellbook
- Devlin’s spellbook
- Withers spellbook
- 6 spellbooks in the Red LibraryAre all these spellbooks explicitly listed, along with their contents? Or are you counting Wizards, and assuming spellbooks?

[Merudo]

Are all these spellbooks explicitly listed, along with their contents? Or are you counting Wizards, and assuming spellbooks?

Explicitly listed.

[Chaosmancer]

It's Ye Olde "god call" that was an uncommon house rule pre 3E. When the situation is desperate, the party is about to TPK or otherwise lose a battle they Can't Or The World Is Doomed, a PC prays for a miracle. Doesn't even have to be the cleric. If the DM allows for such a thing he'll call for a percentile roll of 5% or must roll 00 or get a Natural 20 on a d20. My college group used it. I did it once when we discovered we were fighting Vecna. Got the Natural 20. Deus Ex Machnica saved the day. 3E provided the spell Miracle, so "god call" went away since something official existed.

See, this is my only problem with Divine Intervention.

It feels like that Hail Mary play, but it is an ability that only gets that use in the absolute worst situations. The type of situation where no matter what other action you can take, it cannot possibly save the day. Because in 80% of its use, Divine Intervention is a wasted turn.

And it irks me because it is such an iconic scene (the holy character praying for salvation during the darkest of times) and I've yet to actually see it happen. Also, every cleric is completely aware of the odds, and if they roll the ability themselves they know the result.


Honestly, I'm toying with a few houserules foe it. For example, I think there should be a way to increase (or decrease) a cleric's chances based on the circumstances. If you follow the god of protection and call upon him to save orphaned children from demons slaughtering them, increase the odds because this falls squarely in your god's strike zone. If you make a vow or a sacrifice, increase the odds. Stuff like that.

Also, I think have the DM roll it. I want the ability to fudge this roll if I feel the drama demands it.

But, other than Divine Intervention, i find the cleric fine. It's just this one ability I can't make work for me

[Unoriginal]

Are all these spellbooks explicitly listed, along with their contents? Or are you counting Wizards, and assuming spellbooks?

Those are listed, but as I said 5 of them are identical unless the DM changes that, and 6 of them are after the final boss's room.

[Citan]

Are all these spellbooks explicitly listed, along with their contents? Or are you counting Wizards, and assuming spellbooks?


Explicitly listed.


Those are listed, but as I said 5 of them are identical unless the DM changes that, and 6 of them are after the final boss's room.
Yeah, but still, it makes the chance of you as a player to get hands on at least 2 of them extremely high. I mean, I never had the book in hands, but as long as it's explicitely provided, it would require an extremely bad or mean DM to "avoid" all of them, like it was on purpose.

And even if spellbook contents is the same, it means you can reasonably expect to learn at least 15 more spells. ^^

Sooo... Thanks a lot Merudo and you all that confirmed the content.
Next time I play a Wizard, I'll make sure it's in the context of that campaign.
(Or if I get a chance to play that campaign, I'll make sure to play a Wizard, whichever way comes first XD).
At least that way I get a strong chance to play the Wizard's forte. :)

(Dreams about a 5-Wizard party with a DM that happens to be extra nice to his players and regularly gives chance to learn extra spells... Or how to become totally overcome with choices because you end as a lvl 5 Wizard that know 20 great 3rd level spells and just cannot bear to put some aside XD).

[MrStabby]

I liked the older way of a cleric having two domains. This meant that there was greater variety in clerics as there was more combinations of different domains.

I think that the god in central to the cleric and agree that the domain should have more of an impact (especially at high levels). Even something as simple as more domain spells would be good.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, but still, it makes the chance of you as a player to get hands on at least 2 of them extremely high. I mean, I never had the book in hands, but as long as it's explicitely provided, it would require an extremely bad or mean DM to "avoid" all of them, like it was on purpose.

And even if spellbook contents is the same, it means you can reasonably expect to learn at least 15 more spells. ^^


To be clear, one of those books is a reward for a sidequest that's not easy to accomplish, eight are in the final dungeon and six are in the area just before. And in that total, one belongs to a powerful boss (or at least, the boss of a powerful dungeon, depending on how the adventure went), and 12 are protected by relatively tough encounters.

And it's just fine, it's appropriate. 15 additional spells over a whole module, assuming you have the time to copy the spells, isn't going to break anything.

Other modules have less spellbooks, however. And it's fine too.

[Mikaleus]

I got to play a Forge Cleric in a oneshot.

Level 8.

My only problem with it was that using it in melee I found myself thinking my Ancients Paladin was more fun to play. Kind of like a smite less Paladin with more spell slots.
This is a preference / playstyle issue more than any issue I forsee with higher level spells being mediocre.
That said, I believe I'd have fun as a more caster style Cleric and my next campaign character is a grave Cleric who is part of a monster hunter group- WOOT :)

[KorvinStarmast]

As to clerics and divine intervention:
The first game we played with Divine Intervention being a thing was Empire of the Petal Throne. (A twin cities area campaign turned into a D&D kind of game in 1975. M.A.R. Barker was remarkable in so many ways, creativity being just one of them). In that game, the gods were identified clearly (5 good and 5 evil) and you could call upon the requesting divine intervention. They were a bit mercurial, to say the least. The players rolled percentile dice (01 - 100) and while a good roll could be helpful, a poor one might also end up with you rolling up another character. :smallbiggrin: In that era of RP-gaming, people didn't get all wound up over a character dying.

(We parted that into a few AD&D 1e games because we liked it, but it was very rare)

5e's divine intervention is a much dampened version of that idea.

[Tanarii]

I liked the older way of a cleric having two domains. This meant that there was greater variety in clerics as there was more combinations of different domains.

I think that the god in central to the cleric and agree that the domain should have more of an impact (especially at high levels). Even something as simple as more domain spells would be good.
I'm not sure how domain could realistically have more of an impact on the cleric. It's a huge impact as it stands. And unless high levels completely stop using domain features and domain spells 1-5, which seems incredibly unlikely given that's not how 5e classes are designed to work at all, they should continue to have a large impact at higher levels.

[Waazraath]

I liked the older way of a cleric having two domains. This meant that there was greater variety in clerics as there was more combinations of different domains.

I think that the god in central to the cleric and agree that the domain should have more of an impact (especially at high levels). Even something as simple as more domain spells would be good.

I loved it, as an optimizer (more possible combinations of features) and because of the extra variaty. But I also like 5e's take on simplifying the game. And in that light, I understand why they made the choice, also given the 'subclass' mechanic.

[Merudo]

I'm not sure how domain could realistically have more of an impact on the cleric.

Like I said, a subclass specific feature at level 14 - which EVERY other full caster is getting - would be nice :)

[Sigreid]

All truth.

Clerics are awesome and just because XG says Healing Spirit isn't a Cleric spell doesn't mean it CAN'T be. I instantly changed that to a cleric spell because everything about it screams holy healing to me and my players.

I'd consider adding it to the Life cleric's domain spells.

[MrStabby]

I'm not sure how domain could realistically have more of an impact on the cleric. It's a huge impact as it stands. And unless high levels completely stop using domain features and domain spells 1-5, which seems incredibly unlikely given that's not how 5e classes are designed to work at all, they should continue to have a large impact at higher levels.

Take a number of spells off the cleric list - add them to some domain lists. Give clerics more domain spells including higher level spells. Light clerics should have sunbeam for example, even if it has to be a domain feature to explicitly give it to them. The domain features at high level like the level 14 extra d8 to damage with weapons doesn't add anything new it just improves what is there. Same with extra channel divinity.

I think all clerics should heal, but i wouldn't mind, for example, if they lost some healing spells in favour of more domain specific spells. I would love for channel divinity to be more of a class feature as it helps to distinguish cleric archetypes in how they play.


I loved it, as an optimizer (more possible combinations of features) and because of the extra variaty. But I also like 5e's take on simplifying the game. And in that light, I understand why they made the choice, also given the 'subclass' mechanic.

Yeah, I understand it. I think in terms of actual complexity in terms of describing rules a second domain would be low, whilst opening up a lot more customisation for those that want it.

[Holmes77]

I have always thought that there are no bad classes only bad players......Read the spells know your role and abilities and you will be fine. The most important thing you have to know is your action economy. Each round you want to able to trigger bonus actions, reactions and the like. If you plan that no class is weak....

[jaappleton]

The part I'll agree with is the spell list. Its a bit lacking, specifically at that level range. The spell list has the utility, it has the healing, but it lacks the punch. I know spells like Spirit Guardians scale particularly well, SG is a very good spell for sure, but you don't want to be casting the same darn spell you've already been casting since 5th level. Casting new spells you've earned as a player gives a feeling of empowerment and accomplishment.

This has been a particular issue of mine with the class since 5E.

This can be fixed largely by granting them one particular spell, which IMO they should've had from the very beginning. Its available to Wizards, Sorcs and Druids. It SHOULD be on the Cleric list as well. Its a spell I've rallied for, I've pestered asked the development team numerous times, and I'm hopeful it becomes official with Tasha's in November.

Sunbeam.

[Chaosmancer]

I have always thought that there are no bad classes only bad players......Read the spells know your role and abilities and you will be fine. The most important thing you have to know is your action economy. Each round you want to able to trigger bonus actions, reactions and the like. If you plan that no class is weak....

{Scrubbed}


I will agree with Jaapleton though, Sunbeam. Clerics need it.

[patchyman]

All other spell casters both get better spells AND a cool subclass specific ability, so yeah, the Cleric gets the short end of the stick.

I love these “I’m a high-level caster, woe is me!” threads. There is a concurrent one at the same time lamenting sorcerers, who are clearly inferior to clerics because they have much fewer spells prepared than clerics, and they can’t change their loadout every day.

How about compared to warlock? They get 1 Mystic Arcanum of each higher spell level that they can only change on level up.

How about compared to barbarians or fighters? Seems 0 high level spells is worse than non-zero high level spells.

[patchyman]

I admit I was mistaken, I missed some of them. The 6 of the Red Library don't really count, though, because it's nearly required to beat the final dungeon's boss to get (or fleeing in a pretty counter-intuitive manner), and by RAW the four spellbooks of the Red Wizards, as well as Voj's own, all have the same content (though a DM can change that if they wish, of course).

So that's 5 before the end of the adventure, 11 in total.

Worth pointing out that it is normal for there to be redundancy in treasure in a module: in a standard campaign, I wonder how much treasure gets missed.

[1Pirate]

{Scrubbed}

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: everyone please remember that, when you see Thread Necromancy (or any other rule violation), the correct course of action is to Report it and not engage. Anything else just draws additional attention to the thread and causes more work for everyone.