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Goblin Slayer
2018-04-30, 05:51 AM
Is there a pen and paper superhero rp like dnd?
All google result show broadgames ones. Are there core rule books for it?

Winthur
2018-04-30, 05:53 AM
Mutants & Masterminds 3ed bases on d20
Wild Talents bases on the One Roll Engine
Marvel Super Heroes is an old system that should be entirely free to find and use nowadays and used to be rather popular for these kinda games

Grod_The_Giant
2018-04-30, 06:31 AM
Champions, and its evolution, the Hero system.
Savage Worlds has superhero stuff-- check out Necessary Evil
Superworld, based on Chaosium's BRP
Marvel SAGA
DC Heroes
Aberrant
Big Eyes, Small Mouth does superheroes pretty well
Godlike is another one-roll engine RPG
Midnight City Blues is superhero noir
Masks
Silver Age Sentinels d20 actually uses classes, apparently.

Basically, there are a crapton. I'd go with Mutants and Masterminds because it's hands-down my favorite RPG, but from the sound of it Silver Age Sentinels might be closer to traditional D&D.

Beleriphon
2018-04-30, 09:19 AM
Basically, there are a crapton. I'd go with Mutants and Masterminds because it's hands-down my favorite RPG, but from the sound of it Silver Age Sentinels might be closer to traditional D&D.

I'm on the same page as Grod. As a plus M&M has d20herosrd.com which is free since M&M is derived from the OGL.

Rhedyn
2018-04-30, 09:28 AM
Savage Worlds with the super powers companion works pretty well for heroes up to Spiderman in power (who is pretty strong).

If you want DC heroes, Savage Worlds can stat them out, but that is more of a thought exercise than actual characters.

JoeJ
2018-04-30, 01:03 PM
There's also GURPS Supers. And in the Cortex Plus system there's Smallville. DC Adventures is the same game as 3rd edition M&M, but with stats for characters licensed from DC comics.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-04-30, 02:21 PM
Masks: A New Generation, if you want to do teen superheroes in the vein of Young Justice or Teen Titans.

Lapak
2018-04-30, 03:14 PM
Marvel Super Heroes is an old system that should be entirely free to find and use nowadays and used to be rather popular for these kinda gamesThe old Marvel system (with FASERIP attributes, Karma, and column shifts) is fun and very, very comic-booky but it does not handle mixed power levels well at all. The armor power (or whatever the super-toughness was called that takes its rating off incoming damage) being particularly difficult to work with if the scaling is unbalanced between two super-beings.

exelsisxax
2018-04-30, 03:46 PM
If you don't care for notions of 'balance', take trigger warnings as a challenge, and like suffering, you may also want to try out weaverdice. Character generation mostly involves detailing the ways in which your character is broken inside so deeply they got superpowers, which are always random and dig bigger holes.

Goblin Slayer
2018-05-01, 02:34 AM
Wow tnx guys its nice to have someone point you in the right direction. Many tnx for sharing

Blacky the Blackball
2018-05-01, 03:23 AM
Marvel Super Heroes is an old system that should be entirely free to find and use nowadays and used to be rather popular for these kinda games

I wrote a retro-clone of the game, which you can download from DriveThruRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/177913/) (for free).


The armor power (or whatever the super-toughness was called that takes its rating off incoming damage) being particularly difficult to work with if the scaling is unbalanced between two super-beings.

I've never understood this complaint.

Unlike the average fantasy system, where most people wear a bit of armour and it's just part of combat, in super hero systems someone with armour - like Iron Man - generally has it as a defining feature of their character. It should be difficult to work around it. If it wasn't, then people wanting to play armoured heroes would feel cheated as their armour would be ineffectual. A character having armour that you can't penetrate, forcing you to have to come up with unusual tactics or stunts to bypass it, is a standard trope of the genre (just look at any fight involving Juggernaut or The Hulk, for example.

I've always seen the way armour works in Marvel Super Heroes and similar games to be a feature of the system, rather than a bug.

Nifft
2018-05-01, 04:14 AM
And in the Cortex Plus system there's Smallville.

Is that the same system as Marvel Heroic Roleplaying?

Lapak
2018-05-01, 09:49 AM
I've never understood this complaint.
...
A character having armour that you can't penetrate, forcing you to have to come up with unusual tactics or stunts to bypass it, is a standard trope of the genre (just look at any fight involving Juggernaut or The Hulk, for example.

I've always seen the way armour works in Marvel Super Heroes and similar games to be a feature of the system, rather than a bug.Two things make it wonky from my point of view (and keep in mind that this is based on recollections decades old, so I would definitely bow to more recent experience saying differently.)

One is the fact that it isn't just resistance but flat immunity to damage below the power's own rating. Cyclops can blast Iron Man all day long and do literally nothing. If there was a floor to damage, even if it was at Typical or Poor, I'd be ok with it; even when Stark takes a hit that the armor absorbs he generally acknowledges the impact in the comics as shaking him up a bit.

The other, which is what makes the first really a problem, is that it isn't just armored types who have it. If the Hulk and Iron Man were the only people effectively immune to Cyclops, that too would be okay. But a LOT of the pre-statted characters has an Excellent or higher rating in this, and that's enough to make them almost immune to street-level heroes or anyone whose primary power isn't some form of direct attack. I always felt that a good selection of the heroes with this power should have been represented by a higher health instead, so it was theoretically possible to wear them down. Only the heroes *focused* on armor/indestructibility (and cosmic-level villains, who tend to have that as part of the package) should be able to no-sell hits as a matter of course.

This is totally a mileage-may-vary situation, I know, but it stuck out to me even years and years later.

John Campbell
2018-05-01, 12:46 PM
I've never understood this complaint.

Unlike the average fantasy system, where most people wear a bit of armour and it's just part of combat, in super hero systems someone with armour - like Iron Man - generally has it as a defining feature of their character. It should be difficult to work around it. If it wasn't, then people wanting to play armoured heroes would feel cheated as their armour would be ineffectual. A character having armour that you can't penetrate, forcing you to have to come up with unusual tactics or stunts to bypass it, is a standard trope of the genre (just look at any fight involving Juggernaut or The Hulk, for example.

I've always seen the way armour works in Marvel Super Heroes and similar games to be a feature of the system, rather than a bug.
When combined with the fixed and quantized damage output of powers and armor ratings that are potentially large compared to Health, it can be a problem.

I played for a while a character, randomly generated from the APG tables, who ended up with 20 Health and 20 points of armor powers that worked on basically anything that did physical damage. This meant that there was exactly one damage rank that made an interesting fight of things. Anything that did Excellent damage or less I could just ignore. Anything that did Incredible damage or more would one-shot me. Opponents necessarily had to do Remarkable damage - no more, no less - in order to challenge me without overwhelming me.

And even then I could only take two hits, but I had an energy absorption power that gave me weak regeneration, so it became a matter of working out how to fuel my regeneration to recover from hits while remaining in the fight, and the fight became interesting. But only if the enemy did exactly Remarkable damage.

And it could have been worse. If I'd rolled a little better on the armor power ranks, I would have ended up in a situation where anything that could hurt me at all would drop me.

And combined with this, my own attack power's damage level was only Excellent, and a lot of stuff, especially stuff that could do enough damage to penetrate my armor, had incidental armor ranks of Excellent or better, so the majority of matchups fell into one of three categories:

1) Fights where my opponent couldn't hurt me, but I could hurt them.
2) Fights where neither of us could hurt the other.
3) Fights where I couldn't hurt my opponent, but they could one-shot me.

None of these categories make for interesting and challenging fights.

JoeJ
2018-05-02, 12:38 AM
Is that the same system as Marvel Heroic Roleplaying?

It's a variant of it. I think one is officially called Cortex Plus Dramatic and the other is Cortex Plus Heroic.

Gravitron5000
2018-05-02, 08:40 AM
It might be a somewhat unpopular choice, but back in the day I had a lot of fun playing Palladium's Heroes Unlimited, especially when combined with TMNT and Other Strangeness.

JAL_1138
2018-05-02, 11:04 AM
The old TSR Marvel Super Heroes, also known as FASERIP, is out-of-print, but was fairly simple and fast to use. Maybe too much so; just about everything boils down to comparing results against a chart.

FUDGE and FATE (FATE is a more "narrativist" spin-off of FUDGE from a different publisher) are simple universal systems that can easily model supers (and a lot of other genres), though they're not ideal for "cosmic-level" supers (though it could be done). FATE is the more popular of the two, comes in a Core version and an Accelerated version, and there's a fair amount of material out for it, both from fans and from Evil Hat. An earlier version of FATE powered a system called Spirit of the Century that could also work with some tweaking/homebrew. WAY less rules than D&D, and a different paradigm/playstyle altogether (can take some getting used to).

Savage Worlds' "Superpowers Companion" has good material to expand on the Savage Worlds core rules. (Savage Worlds is a generic/universal system with no assumed setting or genre by default, but there are a ton of settings and additional genre supplements for it). It does best with "pulp style" or "action movie" games (e.g., "street-level" supers, sword-and-sorcery fantasy a'la Lankhmar or Conan, etc.). It can model supers with inherent powers or gadget-based characters and keep them on a pretty even playing field. About the same level of rules "crunch" as 5e D&D; neither as rules-light as FATE nor as rules-heavy as 3.5/Pathfinder or GURPS. The dice mechanics used mean it can be a bit on the "swingy" side, though.

For potentially higher-powered supers than Savage Worlds can easily do and a system loosely based on the d20 System (so fairly easy for D&D/PF players to get the hang of), though not as rules-heavy as 3.5 or Pathfinder, Mutants and Masterminds is worth checking out. Balance is kinda wonky, though.

GURPS (which stands for "Generic Universal Role-Playing System") can model just about anything you can think of, but it's extremely rules-heavy and detailed in its simulation. You could literally make an M1 Abrams battletank as a player character if you wanted. There are also supplements that add new rules and abilities for just about every genre under the sun.

Hero System can also simulate just about anything imaginable, but is arguably even more rules-heavy than GURPS, at least in its core system (GURPS has more supplements by far). The core rulebooks are heavy enough they can double as bludgeoning weapons in a pinch.

Nifft
2018-05-02, 12:07 PM
It's a variant of it. I think one is officially called Cortex Plus Dramatic and the other is Cortex Plus Heroic.

Interesting.

I remember having fun with MHRP pre-gen characters, but then finding nothing on how to make new heroes or how to make a non-Marvel universe.

Lord Shark
2018-05-02, 12:39 PM
Interesting.

I remember having fun with MHRP pre-gen characters, but then finding nothing on how to make new heroes or how to make a non-Marvel universe.

The way to make characters in MHR is via modeling -- decide how your character compares to already existing characters and assign powersets, SFX, etc., accordingly. The older MSH game was similar, although it did also include a random system.

Personally, one of the things I like about MHR is that it handles characters of different power levels better than a lot of games. In, say, Champions or M&M, if you have a team that consists of Billionaire Genius in Power Armor, Ancient God of Thunder, Rampaging Monster Who's the Strongest One There Is, and Super Spy Who's Really Good At Martial Arts, the Super Spy is going to have to spend a lot of time sitting on the sidelines because anything that will challenge the first three characters will probably be way out of her league.

Anyway, there's also a new game on the block -- the Sentinel Comics RPG, based on the Sentinels of the Multiverse card game. Currently it's only available as a starter set with pregen characters and six adventures, but they'll soon be doing a Kickstarter for the full game, including character generation rules. It's designed by the same guy who did MHR, and has very similar mechanics.

Other games to consider include ICONS, Supers RED, and Capes, Cowls, and Villains Foul.

(and for what it's worth, I found overuse of Body Armor irritating in MSH back in the day too. Not to mention Champions, where it seemed like every character had to have Armor, a personal Force Field, or some other kind of built-up defense.)

Lapak
2018-05-02, 02:19 PM
Anyway, there's also a new game on the block -- the Sentinel Comics RPG, based on the Sentinels of the Multiverse card game. Currently it's only available as a starter set with pregen characters and six adventures, but they'll soon be doing a Kickstarter for the full game, including character generation rules. It's designed by the same guy who did MHR, and has very similar mechanics. Oh, that's welcome news, I like that game!

Grod_The_Giant
2018-05-03, 06:29 AM
Oh, that's welcome news, I like that game!
I played through one of the sample scenarios. Maybe it's just the playtest, but the rules felt kind of incomplete (ie, we couldn't find anything on how moving in combat works), and as for our powers... well... you know how the card came is finicky and detail-oriented and involves keeping track of a whole mess of small parts? That was my impression of the RPG, too.

Milo v3
2018-05-07, 05:05 AM
Personally, one of the things I like about MHR is that it handles characters of different power levels better than a lot of games. In, say, Champions or M&M, if you have a team that consists of Billionaire Genius in Power Armor, Ancient God of Thunder, Rampaging Monster Who's the Strongest One There Is, and Super Spy Who's Really Good At Martial Arts, the Super Spy is going to have to spend a lot of time sitting on the sidelines because anything that will challenge the first three characters will probably be way out of her league.

That's an odd view of M&M, considering it specifically has Power Level rules that makes it so characters are all on the same power level.

Beleriphon
2018-05-07, 09:45 AM
That's an odd view of M&M, considering it specifically has Power Level rules that makes it so characters are all on the same power level.

The idea that the superpsy can't due anything is only true if you build them as a skilled normal at may be PL8 and he thunder god as a PL14 powerhouse bruiser. The official DC RPG, DC Adventures, runs on M&M with DC specific examples, the rules for it and M&M Third Edition are functionally identical. Batman is a PL12 character, Nightwing is PL10, and Superman is PL16. The default PL is 10 in M&M so the basic are that characters are at least as competent in combat as **** Grayson, which is to say pretty damn competent.

JoeJ
2018-05-07, 11:08 AM
The idea that the superpsy can't due anything is only true if you build them as a skilled normal at may be PL8 and he thunder god as a PL14 powerhouse bruiser. The official DC RPG, DC Adventures, runs on M&M with DC specific examples, the rules for it and M&M Third Edition are functionally identical. Batman is a PL12 character, Nightwing is PL10, and Superman is PL16. The default PL is 10 in M&M so the basic are that characters are at least as competent in combat as **** Grayson, which is to say pretty damn competent.

PL is not a good measure of character power or ability. It's much more useful to look at point cost. On that measure, starting PCs are at about the level of Arsenal, Beast Boy, the Golden Age Shining Knight or Iron Munro. That's just the default, of course. The GM can set the starting point higher or lower if desired.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-05-07, 11:28 AM
PL is not a good measure of character power or ability. It's much more useful to look at point cost. On that measure, starting PCs are at about the level of Arsenal, Beast Boy, the Golden Age Shining Knight or Iron Munro. That's just the default, of course. The GM can set the starting point higher or lower if desired.
You can make some damn impressive pl10/150pp heroes if you try and make good use if arrays. I can make a pure kung-fu hero at pl10, but I can also make pretty damn credible Flash, Green Lantern, and if I can't quite manage Superman or Martian Manhunter, I can get something pretty close.

Beleriphon
2018-05-07, 12:44 PM
PL is not a good measure of character power or ability. It's much more useful to look at point cost. On that measure, starting PCs are at about the level of Arsenal, Beast Boy, the Golden Age Shining Knight or Iron Munro. That's just the default, of course. The GM can set the starting point higher or lower if desired.

That's very true, PL12 Batman actually costs more than the PL16 Superman does. That said, the idea a group of characters all pegged at the same power level can't contribute isn't fair, or true.

John Campbell
2018-05-07, 05:50 PM
That's very true, PL12 Batman actually costs more than the PL16 Superman does. That said, the idea a group of characters all pegged at the same power level can't contribute isn't fair, or true.

According to the DC Adventures Heroes & Villains books, Batman is PL12 and 283 PP. Superman is PL15 and 289 PP.

Barring Kryptonite or similar shenanigans, Superman will own Batman. Batman is incapable of hitting Superman hard enough to penetrate his Impervious 18 Toughness, and he doesn't even have Penetrating on any of his listed attacks. Part of the problem is that Bats has a stupid-high attack bonus, so he's PL-limited very low on damage.

JoeJ
2018-05-07, 07:03 PM
According to the DC Adventures Heroes & Villains books, Batman is PL12 and 283 PP. Superman is PL15 and 289 PP.

Barring Kryptonite or similar shenanigans, Superman will own Batman. Batman is incapable of hitting Superman hard enough to penetrate his Impervious 18 Toughness, and he doesn't even have Penetrating on any of his listed attacks. Part of the problem is that Bats has a stupid-high attack bonus, so he's PL-limited very low on damage.

How well they'd do PVP is irrelevant, though. Teamed up, each would be contributing about equally to an adventure. Batman really shines in the investigation part, and Superman is the big gun when it's time to fight.

Milo v3
2018-05-07, 07:27 PM
The idea that the superpsy can't due anything is only true if you build them as a skilled normal at may be PL8 and he thunder god as a PL14 powerhouse bruiser. The official DC RPG, DC Adventures, runs on M&M with DC specific examples, the rules for it and M&M Third Edition are functionally identical. Batman is a PL12 character, Nightwing is PL10, and Superman is PL16. The default PL is 10 in M&M so the basic are that characters are at least as competent in combat as **** Grayson, which is to say pretty damn competent.


Yeah, and the game assumes all the characters you use will be on the same power level. It doesn't matter if the premade batman is PL12 and Superman is PL16, the game tells you to decide on the Power level for the game, not on an individual basis for each player.

If you're running a PL 12 game, one person can play superman and another can play batman, the superman will probably be abit less strong than he is normally portrayed in the comics, but characters are always changing power level based on the author anyway. If you're running a PL 16 game, one person can play superman and another can play batman, the batman character will probably be much more super intelligent worlds best detective than he normally is.

John Campbell
2018-05-07, 07:54 PM
How well they'd do PVP is irrelevant, though. Teamed up, each would be contributing about equally to an adventure. Batman really shines in the investigation part, and Superman is the big gun when it's time to fight.

I generally find that, "You get to be useful for half the night, while you sit around twiddling your thumbs, and then you get to be useful for half the night while you sit around twiddling your thumbs," does not make for happy players.

And it's not even that, because it's, "Okay, investigation time. Batman, this is where you shine, because skills, but actually it turns out that Superman is pretty useful too because, hey, investigative journalist with super-senses. And then it's fighting time! Superman, this is where you shine and Batman is completely useless because he's literally incapable of affecting anything that can challenge you! Partly because his PL is too low, but also because his build is stupidly lopsided!"

(The Marvel character I mentioned earlier, I ended up some time later rebuilding in the M&M/DCA system for a DC campaign, and even as a starting character at PL10 and 150 PP, I could have given Superman a fight. Unless I got stupid-lucky with the dice, he would've beaten me, and probably pretty quickly, but given some lucky rolls, I could have taken him. And I was useful outside a fight, too.

Batman could not have affected me any more than he could Superman.)

JoeJ
2018-05-07, 10:26 PM
I generally find that, "You get to be useful for half the night, while you sit around twiddling your thumbs, and then you get to be useful for half the night while you sit around twiddling your thumbs," does not make for happy players.

That's not how it works, at least with a competent GM. It's more like your character takes the lead, but the others still pull their weight.


And it's not even that, because it's, "Okay, investigation time. Batman, this is where you shine, because skills, but actually it turns out that Superman is pretty useful too because, hey, investigative journalist with super-senses. And then it's fighting time! Superman, this is where you shine and Batman is completely useless because he's literally incapable of affecting anything that can challenge you! Partly because his PL is too low, but also because his build is stupidly lopsided!"

Hunh? If Batman is ever useless you're playing him wrong.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-05-08, 06:57 AM
Hunh? If Batman is ever useless you're playing him wrong.
To be fair, the official DC Adventures/M&M 3e Batman build is legitimately one of the worst I've ever seen. It dumps like a hundred points into buying all his abilities up to ~4, grabs the stock utility belt with effect rank 3-4 items, and then picks up, like, every skill and advantage on the list. So yeah, this particular PL 12 Batman can't affect PL 15 Superman. That's not because of any inherent bias against badass normals*, or even because of the difference in PL, it's because the build is a festering pile of crap that can't even remotely pull its weight.

If your attacks and defenses are at their PL cap, and you haven't traded off insanely far in either direction, you will contribute to a fight in M&M. I've played the badass normal type in a party where other characters included "guy who could selectively enforce or revoke laws of physics" and "demigod with a a lightning spear" and come off fine.

You want a functional Batman build that can hang out in the Justice League? No problem. Give him Reaction Variable ~2 (Skills and Advantages), because Batman is Good At Everything. Give him Concealment 10, because Batman Is A Goddamn Ninja. Give him a custom utility belt with gear that's actually on par for his PL, because Batman Has The Best Toys. Give him a ~2*PL martial arts array, because Batman Is A Goddamn Ninja. (And note, this is all for probably ~70 points; you can fit this on a PL 10 dude if you want)

If Batman can sneak up on Superman (which he has been shown to do in comics, so nyah), power attack with Damage ~12 shaped-charge plastic explosives, and Deflect (Reflect) his attacks back at him through sheer ninja skills, then you've got a much fair-er fight.



*Well, maybe a bit, in that the underlying system math favors lower attack/higher effect powers

JoeJ
2018-05-08, 11:16 AM
To be fair, the official DC Adventures/M&M 3e Batman build is legitimately one of the worst I've ever seen. It dumps like a hundred points into buying all his abilities up to ~4, grabs the stock utility belt with effect rank 3-4 items, and then picks up, like, every skill and advantage on the list. So yeah, this particular PL 12 Batman can't affect PL 15 Superman. That's not because of any inherent bias against badass normals*, or even because of the difference in PL, it's because the build is a festering pile of crap that can't even remotely pull its weight.

If your attacks and defenses are at their PL cap, and you haven't traded off insanely far in either direction, you will contribute to a fight in M&M. I've played the badass normal type in a party where other characters included "guy who could selectively enforce or revoke laws of physics" and "demigod with a a lightning spear" and come off fine.

You want a functional Batman build that can hang out in the Justice League? No problem. Give him Reaction Variable ~2 (Skills and Advantages), because Batman is Good At Everything. Give him Concealment 10, because Batman Is A Goddamn Ninja. Give him a custom utility belt with gear that's actually on par for his PL, because Batman Has The Best Toys. Give him a ~2*PL martial arts array, because Batman Is A Goddamn Ninja. (And note, this is all for probably ~70 points; you can fit this on a PL 10 dude if you want)

If Batman can sneak up on Superman (which he has been shown to do in comics, so nyah), power attack with Damage ~12 shaped-charge plastic explosives, and Deflect (Reflect) his attacks back at him through sheer ninja skills, then you've got a much fair-er fight.



*Well, maybe a bit, in that the underlying system math favors lower attack/higher effect powers

I will bow to your greater expertise on the mechanics of M&M. I will, however, also point out that in an adventure that follows the tropes of the genre, Superman would most likely be keeping the BBEG busy while Batman destroys the doomsday device or whatever it is that's required for the villain's evil scheme. Stand-up empty room fights are not the way supers adventures typically play out.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-05-08, 02:24 PM
I guess the main point is that it's possible to make a badass normal character in M&M and have them keep up with overtly powered ones of a similar PL. You just have to present them as more than a pile of skill ranks-- ie, representing Batman's master detective skills not as a high Investigation bonus, but as flat-out Postcognition.

JoeJ
2018-05-08, 03:27 PM
I guess the main point is that it's possible to make a badass normal character in M&M and have them keep up with overtly powered ones of a similar PL. You just have to present them as more than a pile of skill ranks-- ie, representing Batman's master detective skills not as a high Investigation bonus, but as flat-out Postcognition.

I agree with that. Badass Normal still won't be able to stand toe to toe with Darkseid, but they shouldn't have to. Darkseid didn't come just looking for a fight, he's got some evil plan. If Superman can keep Darkseid busy for a few moments, Badass Norman can disrupt that plan and save the world.

I guess I just object to the idea that supers characters should be balanced around straight-up empty room combat when that's not how adventures in this genre typically work.

Beleriphon
2018-05-08, 04:14 PM
I agree with that. Badass Normal still won't be able to stand toe to toe with Darkseid, but they shouldn't have to. Darkseid didn't come just looking for a fight, he's got some evil plan. If Superman can keep Darkseid busy for a few moments, Badass Norman can disrupt that plan and save the world.

I guess I just object to the idea that supers characters should be balanced around straight-up empty room combat when that's not how adventures in this genre typically work.

The best way to check balance on a character, or group of characters in system is to place them against Fist Full of Nazis: 6 "Soldier stats" Nazis with submachineguns, 1 soldier with a Panzerfaust (rocket launcher), and 1 tank with a crew of 5, including the machine-gunner.

This works for expectations. A PL10 character with appropriately maxed/balanced stats (ie. a PC build) can clean the group up pretty well, but not without risk. A PL15 Superman expy is immune to their damage for the most part and only the tank will present anything approaching a challenge, for maybe one round until it gets tossed into orbit.