Sorcadin or Straight Paladin

[wikkedj]

Howdy all,
Playing in an AL legal game, original intent was to go sorcadin, six levels of paladin and the rest sorcerer. Recently looking through the XGtE spells I was smitten with find greater steed. I love griffons, they're my favorite. For purely fluff reasons I will now be going through at least 13 levels of paladin to grab that spell on this character. After that, is it worth going any into sorcerer or does that many levels of paladin kind of gimp a sorcadin build?

[Waazraath]

Howdy all,
Playing in an AL legal game, original intent was to go sorcadin, six levels of paladin and the rest sorcerer. Recently looking through the XGtE spells I was smitten with find greater steed. I love griffons, they're my favorite. For purely fluff reasons I will now be going through at least 13 levels of paladin to grab that spell on this character. After that, is it worth going any into sorcerer or does that many levels of paladin kind of gimp a sorcadin build?

Both full class pally and and sorcadin are powerful. But if you go up to 14 pally anyway... afb, but if I recall correctly the level 15 subclass ability is for some pally subclasses very powerful. Aura enhancements at 18 are also great, the pally capstones are great, and the level 5 spells are probably stronger then what a few levels of sorcerer have to offer. Don't know if you already have it planned in the build, but lot of good sor spells require both verbal, material somatic components, so you'd need the warcaster feat to full use it. If you haven't planned it, its an extra feat tax.

So I'd probably continue in the paladin class myself.

[strangebloke]

Howdy all,
Playing in an AL legal game, original intent was to go sorcadin, six levels of paladin and the rest sorcerer. Recently looking through the XGtE spells I was smitten with find greater steed. I love griffons, they're my favorite. For purely fluff reasons I will now be going through at least 13 levels of paladin to grab that spell on this character. After that, is it worth going any into sorcerer or does that many levels of paladin kind of gimp a sorcadin build?

What level do you think you're getting to?

13 is higher level than most ever get to.

Sorcerer levels after that point (at least 3-4) are perfectly acceptable.

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, this is a choice I have had difficulty with as well. Xanathar's does have so many fun spells and fluff options for Paladins. For example, one of my Paladins makes sure to use Ceremony on the beings he kills. While it may not have a mechanical benefit, it really lets me RP him better.

But that said, Soradins are fun too. In fact, I have a Soradin in AL with Green Flame Blade and he's about to have Booming Blade. I'll be honest, I have never run into another character that can deal as much nova damage in a single round, especially since my Soradin has 3rd level spells. I generally cast Haste on myself, and can absolutely wreck bosses.

So, having said all that, I would make my decision based on two things:

1) What are you using the Paladin for? Are you going to use them for a hardcover? If so, which hardcover? For example, if you were doing Curse of Strahd a fluffy Paladin is fine. If you are doing Tomb of Ahnniliation, then you probably want to go Soradin to have the greatest chance of survival. If it is Storm King's Thunder, Soradin will help...but I beat it as a pure Paladin since my build was Paladin 9 / Sorcerer x

2) How tough is your DM? I am the optimizer at my table, but I learned that I needed to be one when two of my characters died instantly. First was an abjuration wizard who died instantly to a crit from a giant, he was brought back by faction charity. Then he died instantly again due to another crit from a giant a few sessions later, and in the same night a cleric replacement I made died instantly from a crit from an ogre.

3) What gear do you have? Depending on if you have any magic items or not, it may be more advantageous to go one way or another.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

What level do you think you're getting to?

13 is higher level than most ever get to.

Sorcerer levels after that point (at least 3-4) are perfectly acceptable.

Do AL games let you start at a certain level?

Make sure you are going to have fun levels 1 to 13. I am involved in 3 games right now and none are above 7. Pick a class you are going to enjoy from the get go.

[sithlordnergal]

Do AL games let you start at a certain level?

Make sure you are going to have fun levels 1 to 13. I am involved in 3 games right now and none are above 7. Pick a class you are going to enjoy from the get go.

You have to start every character at level 1, but baring death you can easily play a character to level 20

[wikkedj]

What level do you think you're getting to?

13 is higher level than most ever get to.

Sorcerer levels after that point (at least 3-4) are perfectly acceptable.

Since it's an AL character, between online play and store games I do realistically see him reaching T4 eventually. (17-20)

[strangebloke]

Since it's an AL character, between online play and store games I do realistically see him reaching T4 eventually. (17-20)

Go to 20 with paladin. Almost no one gets the chance to use that sweet capstone. Make the most of it.

[wikkedj]

Hmmm, this is a choice I have had difficulty with as well. Xanathar's does have so many fun spells and fluff options for Paladins. For example, one of my Paladins makes sure to use Ceremony on the beings he kills. While it may not have a mechanical benefit, it really lets me RP him better.

But that said, Soradins are fun too. In fact, I have a Soradin in AL with Green Flame Blade and he's about to have Booming Blade. I'll be honest, I have never run into another character that can deal as much nova damage in a single round, especially since my Soradin has 3rd level spells. I generally cast Haste on myself, and can absolutely wreck bosses.

So, having said all that, I would make my decision based on two things:

1) What are you using the Paladin for? Are you going to use them for a hardcover? If so, which hardcover? For example, if you were doing Curse of Strahd a fluffy Paladin is fine. If you are doing Tomb of Ahnniliation, then you probably want to go Soradin to have the greatest chance of survival. If it is Storm King's Thunder, Soradin will help...but I beat it as a pure Paladin since my build was Paladin 9 / Sorcerer x

2) How tough is your DM? I am the optimizer at my table, but I learned that I needed to be one when two of my characters died instantly. First was an abjuration wizard who died instantly to a crit from a giant, he was brought back by faction charity. Then he died instantly again due to another crit from a giant a few sessions later, and in the same night a cleric replacement I made died instantly from a crit from an ogre.

3) What gear do you have? Depending on if you have any magic items or not, it may be more advantageous to go one way or another.

Playing through Hoard of the Dragon Queen now in an AL home game. DM expects that to end with us around 9. His wife is pregnant and he expects to be tied up and unable to play much after that is finished. So at that point it will most likely be whatever games I can find online, so not 100% sure what the content will be, but if I had to guess it would be AL modules.

Current DM is tough but fair.

Character is only level 3 at the moment, no magic items.

I do have another AL paladin as well, so I mean if I do straight pally here, I'm not going to be too upset about it.

[PeteNutButter]

If you are using Xanathar's in AL you are already missing out on one of the huge benefits of sorcadin in BB and GFB. If you won't be quickening BB/GFB you won't be doing all that much with sorcerer levels until way late.

What's your paladin subclass?

That far in the best reason to take sorcerer is for spamming shield spell. Most tier 3+ monsters have ridiculous + to hit so you'll need all the AC you can get if that's your core defense. A single level in sorcerer gets you that tasty shield spell.

Do not focus on level 20. Reaching level 20 in AL is not an easy task. The content in T4 is sparse, and it can be hard to find/get in games at that tier.

[wikkedj]

If you are using Xanathar's in AL you are already missing out on one of the huge benefits of sorcadin in BB and GFB. If you won't be quickening BB/GFB you won't be doing all that much with sorcerer levels until way late.

What's your paladin subclass?

That far in the best reason to take sorcerer is for spamming shield spell. Most tier 3+ monsters have ridiculous + to hit so you'll need all the AC you can get if that's your core defense. A single level in sorcerer gets you that tasty shield spell.

Do not reaching level 20 in AL is not an easy task. The content in T4 is sparse, and it can be hard to find/get in games at that tier.

The loss of BB and GFB will for sure be felt.

At first I was going Oath of Devotion when I thought I was only going 6 levels of Paladin. I'm really leaning towards full Pally on this character at this point and I think I'll be swapping to Oath of the Ancients.

The shield spell is for sure nice looking. With 6 or 7 levels in sorcerer I'd also still get metamagic for empowered smites and an origin feature. Also still lets me get to fireball, haste and hypnotic suggestion. Decent spells, but obviously the higher level sorcerer spells are much more potent.

[Sception]

Consider Conquest. It gets more than most paladins for the levels between 6 and 13. Most pallies don't care about the level 7 aura (the others that really do are ancients - where you're currently leaning - and oathbreaker, which most DM's don't allow), most don't care about 3rd level spells known at level 9 (they like 3rd level slots for smites, but you get more, faster, higher level smites by multiclassing out into sorcerer sooner rather than later), but for conquest paladins access to the Fear spell is huge. Most paladins don't care about aura of courage at 10th level, since enemies using frighten isn't too common and aura of protection already helps against it when it does show up, but conquest paladins are throwing out party-unfriendly Fear cones practically every encounter from level 9, so making allies outright immune to fear up to 10' away is a big deal for them.

As a rule, conquest paladins, despite what their tenets might imply, also generally favor their spellcasting stat over their attack stat, and are strongly encouraged to shore up their concentration saves, so they'll likely get more out of their 4th level spells known once they hit level 13 than other paladins anyway.

Drawbacks are that conquerors get a lot out of every paladin level. Where most pallies can jump ship after level 6 with no regrets, the next level of paladin is always offering conquerors a prize they desperately want. Sorcerer is still a strong multiclass option for them, conqueror 13 / sorcerer 7 is an absolutely viable and effective character, but you'll miss your level 14 (conquest leans more towards tanking than offense, so the ability to shrug off many negative conditions is particularly worthwhile for them), 15 (conquest pallies have a great level 15 oath feature that blends beautifully with their lockdown abilities, 16 (needing max cha while still attacking with strength or dex makes every asi critical), 17 (needing max cha makes 5th level spells known actually meaningful, destructive wave in particular is great), 18 (amazing auras make aura extension amazing), 19 (again, every asi is critical), and 20 (like most oaths, conquest has a very strong capstone, difference is conquest is greatly rewarded for each pally level they take on the way) paladin abilities more than other paladin oaths would.

You're not worse off as a conquest 13 / sorcerer 7 than as a conquest 20 really, you'll have better damage potential in particular, between more/higher smite slots and metamagic for quicken/twin/etc, and you get a lot of extra utility out of spells like shield and misty step. But in exchange for getting more from the paladin levels you do take, you'll also lose more from the levels you don't.

[MagneticKitty]

You might be better off with lv 10 bard the rest paladin. Find greater steed through magical secrets at lv 10. You can go 10/10 split or paladin 6 / bard 14 which I'd start with pal 2 then go to bard 10 to get find greater steed. If you want lesser steed too go with lore bard for early level find steed. You can wear heavy armor and have full caster smites.

My group did a battle of the bards one shot. Let me tell you paladin 2 defensive fighting style / college of swords dual weilding fighting style / dual weilder feat /mounted combatant feat + Lances which are one handed while mounted with counterspell and find steed. It was great. Use str and wear heavy armor. My chosen mount was a sabertooth tiger. If that's not a good metal album cover I don't know what is.

[Sception]

You might be better off with lv 10 bard the rest paladin. Find greater steed through magical secrets at lv 10. You can go 10/10 split or paladin 6 / bard 14 which I'd start with pal 2 then go to bard 10 to get find greater steed. If you want lesser steed too go with lore bard for early level find steed. You can wear heavy armor and have full caster smites.

If you just want the steed spells and don't care about other later paladin features, this is a strong suggestion. Paladin/Bard is a very good multiclass. Maybe not as personally powerful as paladin/sorcerer due to lack of metamagic, shield spell, etc, but still a very good fit. Particularly for sword & board pallies looking for something to do with their bonus actions. Inspiring presence is very good and very on-theme.

[Nidgit]

Another rec behind a Paladin/Bard split. Swordsbard in particular offers great defense, Lore gives earlier Magical Secrets, and even Whispers offers some opportunities for vicious nova damage.

Another good option would be a Paladin 13/Hexblade 7 multiclass. Expanded crit range, SAD build, access to Shield spell and Invocations, plus even more Smites.

[CTurbo]

I was thinking if you're taking mostly Paladin levels, Warlock may be the better option, and not necessarily Hexblade either. If it was only going to be 6 or so levels of Paladin, I'd say Sorcerer all the way.

I'm sick of the HexPally builds that it seems like EVERY body is doing when the other Warlock pacts are all still great too depending on what you're wanting to do.

[MagneticKitty]

On that, I'm proud to say my next Pali warlock is raven queen blade lock palidan. Not sure what subclass of Pali. I don't know why people hate on raven queen patron, turning into a raven at lv 6 is awesome. Flight and stealth missions. Sad they didn't officialize it in xanathars

[Sception]

If you're taking at least 3 levels out of paladin, the sorcerer makes a strong case for itself based on metamagic. Paladin 14, Sorcerer 6 is perfectly viable, on par with or better than similar split with warlock.

If you're only going for one or two levels, warlock, and especially hexblade, is way better.

The problem with other patrons is that warlock just offers so much. Shield, cha melee and hexblade's curse at first level, especially when that curse scales with chracter instead of class level. Other patrons don't compare, mostly because other patrons aren't also trying to be a stealth bladelock fix at the same time, but even without hex warrior....

They're still perfectly playable multiclass options, though, if you prefer one for thematic reasons. I'm partial to a 'green knight' ancients/fey multiclass narratively, and it works well enough.

[Malifice]

Howdy all,
Playing in an AL legal game, original intent was to go sorcadin, six levels of paladin and the rest sorcerer. Recently looking through the XGtE spells I was smitten with find greater steed. I love griffons, they're my favorite. For purely fluff reasons I will now be going through at least 13 levels of paladin to grab that spell on this character. After that, is it worth going any into sorcerer or does that many levels of paladin kind of gimp a sorcadin build?

The problem with Sorc-adins is they tend to miss out on improved divine smite. +1d8 to every single attack made is a very potent ability. Its worth generally 2d8 damage per round.

You should be seeing around 30 rounds of combat per long rest on average. That's an extra 60d8 damage over the course of the day. It more than makes up for the extra slots to smite from the Sorcerer levels.

[Snowbluff]

The problem with Sorc-adins is they tend to miss out on improved divine smite. +1d8 to every single attack made is a very potent ability. Its worth generally 2d8 damage per round.

You should be seeing around 30 rounds of combat per long rest on average. That's an extra 60d8 damage over the course of the day. It more than makes up for the extra slots to smite from the Sorcerer levels.

Yeah, but a Sorcadin can do far better than 2d8 per round with the difference. Conservatively, a Boomingblade will hit hard. Better yet, a fire ball has a better damage per slot and hits more guys than a improved smite of the same slot. In short the action economy is superior for the sorcadin.

Sorcerer also gets strong reaction options paladin don't normally get, like Shield and Absorb Elements.

Also, it's not a couple of extra slots. Paladin6/Sorcerer14 is a 17th level caster, versus 10th for a straight paladin. Sure, it's 20d8 of dice, but these are big, juicy slots. That's 31 spell points, which can be, say, 10 second level slots, or 30d8 on that alone...

Oooor, you can go Divine Sorcerer, get Spirit guardians. With a 9th level slot, that's 9d8 damage per round. Makes Improved Smite (and Hex and Hunter's Mark) loook really silly by comparison.

[Nifft]

Oath of Ancients is awesome right through level 20.

I'd have an easy time quitting Oath of Vengeance right after level 6, but Ancients just keeps giving juicy perks.

[Malifice]

Yeah, but a Sorcadin can do far better than 2d8 per round with the difference.

Conservatively, a Boomingblade will hit hard.

You don't have the resources to quicken a Booming blade frequently enough to beat the added damage of Improved Divine smite till you are well into high level play (approaching 20th level), and most games don't get that far.

At 13th level, the difference between a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 7 and Paladin 13 in spell slots is minimal. The Paladin has 4/3/3/1 and the Sorcadin has 4/3/3/3/2 (4 extra slots per long rest).


Better yet, a fire ball has a better damage per slot and hits more guys than a improved smite of the same slot. In short the action economy is superior for the sorcadin.

If you're casting fireball as a Sorcadin, you're not really doing your job (spike damage). You're just playing like a gimped Sorcerer with less slots.


Also, it's not a couple of extra slots. Paladin6/Sorcerer14 is a 17th level caster, versus 10th for a straight paladin. Sure, it's 20d8 of dice, but these are big, juicy slots. That's 31 spell points, which can be, say, 10 second level slots, or 30d8 on that alone...

Yawn. 20th level shenanigans that almost no-one ever plays, and if they do its normally only for a one shot, or an end game.

The levels 1-19 are much more important (especially levels 1-11) as you'll be spending 99.999999999 percent of your playing time there.

[Snowbluff]

At 13th level, the difference between a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 7 and Paladin 13 in spell slots is minimal. The Paladin has 4/3/3/1 and the Sorcadin has 4/3/3/3/2 (4 extra slots per long rest). Well, that's 4 more rounds of smiting, or 3 quickens per LR.




If you're casting fireball as a Sorcadin, you're not really doing your job (spike damage). You're just playing like a gimped Sorcerer with less slots. Smite twice then quicken a big spell. Easy peasy. More burst than a normal paladin or sorcerer. Of course, burning through all of your resources is reckless, but it'll do what it's intended to do as a build.




Yawn. 20th level shenanigans that almost no-one ever plays, and if they do its normally only for a one shot, or an end game.

The levels 1-19 are much more important (especially levels 1-11) as you'll be spending 99.999999999 percent of your playing time there.
Well, first off he might get to 20.

You don't have the resources to quicken a Booming blade frequently enough to beat the added damage of Improved Divine smite till you are well into high level play (approaching 20th level), and most games don't get that far.

Second off, at the example level 13, the sorcadin will have a 5th level slot. That slot can be a 5d8 spirit guardians. That's 50d8 on a single slot on a long rest, using your idea of counting the damage per resource. So it has more consistent and burst damage than a normal paladin.

Because of the reaction spells, it also has better defenses as needed. You're only down 1-2 HP per level (depending on if you're playing a dragon sorc), and you can generate 5 AC or resistance to an otherwise hard to avoid attack on the fly.

In short, pure paladin is soundly trounced in every way except for high level auras.

[Malifice]

Well, that's 4 more rounds of smiting, or 3 quickens per LR.

4 more smites, as opposed to +1d8 damage on each and every strike.

And aren't you (as a Sorcadin) also using those slots for shields, and other spells? Or are we back to Schroedingers sorcadin? He's better than the Paladin because he has 4 more smites, and quickens fireballs/ cantrips and casts absorb elements and shield all at the same time.


In short, pure paladin is soundly trounced in every way except for high level auras.

No, it's not.

It depends on how many encounters per long rest your DM makes you have, and the average length of your adventuring days.

The Sorc-adin only really has the resources to be effective for 6-8 encounters at around 20th level (which is around 8-12 levels after most games end).

[Snowbluff]

4 more smites, as opposed to +1d8 damage on each and every strike.

And aren't you (as a Sorcadin) also using those slots for shields, and other spells? Or are we back to Schroedingers sorcadin? He's better than the Paladin because he has 4 more smites, and quickens fireballs/ cantrips and casts absorb elements and shield all at the same time.
1) Well, yes you are up against "Shroedinger's sorcerer" in a very literal sense. This is a literal quantum leap in versatility and capability the paladin lacks. You have the gist of my propose optimal setup: take Favored Soul (or Divine or whatever), take long lasting, consistent spells to go with your burst damage. What a normal paladin does cannot compete.
2) Shield is a 1st level slot. You have four of them. They'll prevent plenty of damage on that mileage.




No, it's not.

It depends on how many encounters per long rest your DM makes you have, and the average length of your adventuring days.

The Sorc-adin only really has the resources to be effective for 6-8 encounters at around 20th level (which is around 8-12 levels after most games end).
Well, considering 1 spell lot of middling level is out performing the only thing the paladin is getting, I'd say it's not really a concern.

I mean, I used to think Hex was good. But I learned the truth. Spirit guardians. Of course, you can do other spells, like flaming sphere, which is on the sorcerer list innately, but it takes your bonus action each turn to use. You could be quickening a spell there.

[Malifice]

1) Well, yes you are up against "Shroedinger's sorcerer" in a very literal sense. This is a literal quantum leap in versatility and capability the paladin lacks. You have the gist of my propose optimal setup: take Favored Soul (or Divine or whatever), take long lasting, consistent spells to go with your burst damage. What a normal paladin does cannot compete.

Cool bro. Go ahead and compare an 11th level Paladin (4/3/3) vs Paladin 6/ Sorcerer 5 (4/3/3/2).

You'll be running up against 7 encounters before I (the DM) let you long rest. Each encounter will feature around 4 rounds of combat (30 rounds in total).

Presuming all slots are used for smiting you get an extra +10d8 from the extra 2 slots. You have enough SP to quicken Booming blade (twice) for an extra +6d8. Heck; I'll even have the creature smacked with BB move for an extra +6d8.

The straight Paladin gets an extra +60d8 from extra attack + improved divine smite.


Well, considering 1 spell lot of middling level is out performing the only thing the paladin is getting, I'd say it's not really a concern.

Your DM probably doesn't police the adventuring day, and you probably only get 1-2 encounters between long rests.

Just a hunch.

[Snowbluff]

Cool bro. Go ahead and compare an 11th level Paladin (4/3/3) vs Paladin 6/ Sorcerer 5 (4/3/3/2).

You'll be running up against 7 encounters before I (the DM) let you long rest. Each encounter will feature around 4 rounds of combat (30 rounds in total).

Presuming all slots are used for smiting you get an extra +10d8 from the extra 2 slots. You have enough SP to quicken Booming blade (twice) for an extra +6d8. Heck; I'll even have the creature smacked with BB move for an extra +6d8.

The straight Paladin gets an extra +60d8 from extra attack + improved divine smite.

2 4th levels slots. Spirit Guardians, 4 rounds each. That's 32d8 of damage. Next 3 encounters, spirit guardians on 3rd level slots for 4 rounds each, 36d8, subtracting the 15d8 the paladin would get from smiting is still 21d8 more. And that's only counting single targets. Considering that you're running 7 encounters a day, the individual monsters would be quite weak, and if there are even 2 enemies in a fight, that damage is doubled.

EDIT: This is only 53d8, compared to 57d8 (subtracting the 3 improved smite dice used earlier). Next 2 encounters, 2nd level flaming sphere for 28 damage, versus 18 from an improved smite, making ~4d8 in difference.

Of course, you've created a pretty specific, obtuse scenario in order to try and make the paladin look better, and still came out behind. I would like to see written material that makes 7 fights between long rests mandatory. :smalltongue:

It's usually a good idea that when you're making an argument NOT to make one that actually supports your opponent's argument. That, and moving goalposts, which you've done twice now, is usually a sign of a faltering argument.



Your DM probably doesn't police the adventuring day, and you probably only get 1-2 encounters between long rests.

Just a hunch.

You don't play the game a whole lot. Just a hunch.

[Malifice]

2 4th levels slots. Spirit Guardians, 4 rounds each. That's 32d8 of damage. Next 3 encounters, spirit guardians on 3rd level slots for 4 rounds each, 36d8, subtracting the 15d8 the paladin would get from smiting is still 21d8 more. And that's only counting single targets. Considering that you're running 7 encounters a day, the individual monsters would be quite weak, and if there are even 2 enemies in a fight, that damage is doubled.

EDIT: This is only 53d8, compared to 57d8 (subtracting the 3 improved smite dice used earlier). Next 2 encounters, 2nd level flaming sphere for 28 damage, versus 18 from an improved smite, making ~4d8 in difference.

Of course, you've created a pretty specific, obtuse scenario in order to try and make the paladin look better, and still came out behind. I would like to see written material that makes 7 fights between long rests mandatory. :smalltongue:

It's usually a good idea that when you're making an argument NOT to make one that actually supports your opponent's argument. That, and moving goalposts, which you've done twice now, is usually a sign of a faltering argument.



You don't play the game a whole lot. Just a hunch.

Lol. Schroedingers Paladin strikes again.

[Sception]

In burst damage, sorcadin absolutely comes out ahead, even if you disregard overtuned spells like spirit guardians. There is value to higher level paladins - higher level auras in several oaths are quite nice, free flying steed, that condition shrugging ability at lv 14, etc. Improved divine smite isn't a bad ability either, if you took paladin level 10 then it's absolutely worth the one extra level. But it's not going to retroactively justify paladin levels 7 to 10 if burst damage is all you care about, not when compared to the not just one but five levels of sorcerer you could have had if you ditched pally at level 6.

Burst damage isn't all paladin delivers tho. If you want to stay in pally, then definitely try yo make use of those secondary roles and abilities, including being sure to pick an oath with a good aura. They won't out-damage a sorcadin individually, but the sorcadin really has nothing comparable to the ancients or conquest auras, or the oathbreaker aura in a party with a necromancer. Sorcadin has their own great utility options, but they do compete for resources with their impressive burst damage optons.

[Snowbluff]

Lol. Schroedingers Paladin strikes again.

This is literally the same set up as before. Original poster, keep in my that this is the best the pure paladin can do, and it has come up short. After 7 and before 11, paladin does not have improved smite, but sorcadin is adding more slots and spells, and after 11 sorcerer adds more spells and options to it's repetoire, as well as more spell points.

While we're at it, Malifice, you've still got to answer my challenge; go find me an AL module with 7 fights with a time crunch that'll preclude a long rest. You'll have to reach that before we can even considered pure paladin to even be in the running for that much damage. Not to mention the weakness of paladin, IE range and AoE, which Sorcadin covers as well.

EDIT: Not that paladin has 60d8 damage over sorcadin in the first place. You only have 11 slots. That's only 11d8 damage from having improved smite. :s

[Malifice]

This is literally the same set up as before. Original poster, keep in my that this is the best the pure paladin can do, and it has come up short. After 7 and before 11, paladin does not have improved smite, but sorcadin is adding more slots and spells, and after 11 sorcerer adds more spells and options to it's repetoire, as well as more spell points.

Paladin also adds more spells and smites. At half the rate of the Sorcerer.

Like I showed above, over 5 whole levels from 7th -11th you get a grand total of an extra 2 slots. Levels 7-11 take around 30 sessions to complete.

In exchange for this you're delaying a feat/ASI by two levels (around 10 sessions at this level), missing out on your 7th level Paladin ability (half damage from spells as an Ancients paladin for you and your buddies forever?), and eventually you also miss out on improved divine smite.


While we're at it, Malifice, you've still got to answer my challenge; go find me an AL module with 7 fights with a time crunch that'll preclude a long rest.

Every single one that features 6-8 encounters all grouped together in a reasonably close space (i.e. every dungeon, ruin, temple, keep, forest etc) or that runs on a doom clock.

Like I said before, you play in campaigns where you get 1-2 encounters per long rest. Good for you. Nova builds in campaigns like that are great.

The game is designed and balanced around 6-8 encounters per long rest, and around 2-3 short rests in that same period of time.

[Snowbluff]

Paladin also adds more spells and smites. At half the rate of the Sorcerer.

Like I showed above, over 5 whole levels from 7th -11th you get a grand total of an extra 2 slots. Levels 7-11 take around 30 sessions to complete.

In exchange for this you're delaying a feat/ASI by two levels (around 10 sessions at this level), missing out on your 7th level Paladin ability (half damage from spells as an Ancients paladin for you and your buddies forever?), and eventually you also miss out on improved divine smite.
I've simplified the argument for the audience. 11 levels of paladin gives you +1d8 per slot. That's 11d8.

2 4+ level slots is 10d8 of smite. If you can quicken 2 cantrips (4 levels of sorc), that's 2 dice x2. Sorcerer wins. IE, improved smite is no benefit at all.
https://media.tenor.com/images/6def41cfbfc28b3be8c20be9d6ef2dde/tenor.gif

Losing an ASI is bad, but so is literally having not having even middling ranged attack potential, and no AoE ability to speak of.



Every single one that features 6-8 encounters all grouped together in a reasonably close space (i.e. every dungeon, ruin, temple, keep, forest etc) or that runs on a doom clock.

Like I said before, you play in campaigns where you get 1-2 encounters per long rest. Good for you. Nova builds in campaigns like that are great.

The game is designed and balanced around 6-8 encounters per long rest, and around 2-3 short rests in that same period of time.
Challenge stands. Needs specific evidence. A rule isn't a rule if it's not in practice.

The closest thing I've had is a CCC 4 hour mod, and it was 5 fights, and we got a long rest in the middle.

[Malifice]

I've simplified the argument for the audience. 11 levels of paladin gives you +1d8 per slot. That's 11d8.

No it doesn't. It gets you +1d8 damage per attack.

Improved divine smite adds +1d8 damage to every single melee attack you make for ever, whether you're smiting on that attack or not.


Challenge stands. Needs specific evidence.

I just gave you specific evidence. Literally every single adventure that features half a dozen encounters clumped together in close proximity (or that is running on a doom clock).

You know; every single dungeon or similar environment ever made.

Maybe in your games you can hit a room of a dungeon, Nova the room, fall back and long rest and repeat the next day. You know; the 5 minute adventuring day. In such crappy unrealistic and boring games, then yes I agree 'nova' builds are great.

For games with DMs that do their jobs and police the adventuring day it's a different story.

[Malifice]

The closest thing I've had is a CCC 4 hour mod, and it was 5 fights, and we got a long rest in the middle.

There you go. The most encounters you've ever had to deal with between long rests was 2-3. Normally you only get 1 or sometimes 2 encounters between long rests.

Just as I predicted.

[Snowbluff]

No it doesn't. It gets you +1d8 damage per attack.

Improved divine smite adds +1d8 damage to every single melee attack you make for ever, whether you're smiting on that attack or not. Oh, very well then. Sorcadin still does more damage. Paladin still loses, but they made a nice runner up in a niche case we have no examples of.



I just gave you specific evidence. Literally every single adventure that features half a dozen encounters clumped together in close proximity (or that is running on a doom clock).

No, you need to cite your sources, like you did with the improved divine smite.Then we can move onto how you're wrong about that.


There you go. The most encounters you've ever had to deal with between long rests was 2-3. Normally you only get 1 or sometimes 2 encounters between long rests.

Just as I predicted.
o teh noez

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkT4vAJnJls


Howdy all,
Recently looking through the XGtE spells I was smitten with find greater steed.

You know, Bards can take a 5th level or below spell from another with their 10th level class feature. If you do that, you could get your buddy sooner. Of course, the build would be very different.

[Malifice]

Paladin still loses.

No they don't. Not unless its a Schroedingers Sorcadin 11 that never loses concentration on Spirit guardians, while casting shield, and quickening booming blade, and smiting, and fireballing, all at the same time with his 2 (count them; 2) extra spell slots over the pure Paladin 11.


No, you need to cite your sources, like you did with the improved divine smite.Then we can move onto how you're wrong about that.

Lulz. I was right about improved divine smite, and I've given you my sources.

Every single one that features a dungeon (or similar) environment with half a dozen or so encounters grouped together in close proximity to each other.

You know. Most adventures ever written.

[Snowbluff]

No they don't. Not unless its a Schroedingers Sorcadin 11 that never loses concentration on Spirit guardians, while casting shield, and quickening booming blade, and smiting, and fireballing, all at the same time with his 2 (count them; 2) extra spell slots over the pure Paladin 11.



Lulz. I was right about improved divine smite, and I've given you my sources.

Every single one that features a dungeon (or similar) environment with half a dozen or so encounters grouped together in close proximity to each other.

You know. Most adventures ever written.
Dude, the sorcadin gets Cha to constitution saves. Combined with heavy army and the piddly guys you find in dungeons, it's not a major issue.

Book and page number. If you're complaining about the already superior sorcadin* be played in a vacuum, give an a dungeon that removes the vacuum for your own benefit.

while casting shield, and quickening booming blade, and smiting, and fireballing, all at the same time with his 2 (count them; 2) extra spell slots over the pure Paladin 11.

*= which was winning by doing none of this, by the way.

[Malifice]

Dude, the sorcadin gets Cha to constitution saves. Combined with heavy army and the piddly guys you find in dungeons, it's not a major issue.

'Piddly' guys in dungeons? You're what... 11th level in the above examples.

Of course, they probably seem piddly to you because you get to freely nova them seeing as your DM doesn't police the adventuring day, you only ever get 1 or sometimes 2 encounters per day, and you just mash buttons and nova.

How boring for you.


Book and page number. If you're complaining about the already superior sorcadin* be played in a vacuum, give an a dungeon that removes the vacuum for your own benefit.

Find a book with a dungeon (or similar) with around half a dozen encounters closely grouped together.

You know, pretty much every single adventure ever written in the history of the game through out its 5 editions, including this one.

That one. I pick that one.

[Snowbluff]

'Piddly' guys in dungeons? You're what... 11th level in the above examples.

Of course, they probably seem piddly to you because you get to freely nova them seeing as your DM doesn't police the adventuring day, you only ever get 1 or sometimes 2 encounters per day, and you just mash buttons and nova.

How boring for you. Your plan was to nova all of your slots with smiting, then autoattack, effectively only taking the attack action all of the time.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/kaq6GnxDlJaBq/giphy.gif
I am genuinely befuddled by the objective and level of objectivity of your statement. Wouldn't just doing the same thing every turn, because your build gives you no other options, actually be boring?



Find a book with a dungeon (or similar) with around half a dozen encounters closely grouped together.

You know, pretty much every single adventure ever written in the history of the game through out its 5 editions, including this one.

That one. I pick that one.
Grudd Haug, SKT pg 139. I wanted you to come up with one that had more single target fights, which would put the paladin at an advantage. Still, it's on the top of my mind because I just ran it.

Each fight except for 2 has at least 2 guys in it, double the sorcadin's spirit guardians damage. 106d8, I guess. There's actually 16 fights in here, so I doubt this is supposed to be done in a single long rest, there's nothing keeping the party from just leaving and coming back, but I guess you can lure guys in from other areas to lawn mower them some more. The orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and wolves will literally die with exposure to Spirit Guardians.A sorc standard Flaming Sphere would be similiar, but SG lasts 10 minutes, so you wouldn't need to refresh it. Smites should be reserved for giants, ogres, and ettins.

[Malifice]

Your plan was to nova all of your slots with smiting, then autoattack, effectively only taking the attack action all of the time.

Yeah. Because 'Paladin'. As a big priority target striker, that's their role in a party. Run to biggest baddest scary thing and smite it into oblivion. Also; buff nearby PCs as a secondary leader type.


Grudd Haug, SKT pg 139. There's actually 16 fights in here

You're going to run out of juice pretty quickly spamming quickened Booming Blades, smiting everything that moves, and blatting 3rd level+ slots on Spirit Guardians (and 1st level slots on shield) aren't you?

After 5 whole levels of Sorcerer (following on from 6 levels of Paladin), you wind up with 2 extra 3rd level slots than you would if you had have stayed a single classed Paladin. Two whole extra slots.

At the same time you get those two slots (and the 3rd level spell Spirt Guardains) at 11th level, the single classed Paladin gets improved divine smite (+1d8 damage to each and every melee weapon attack he makes).

You also get an expanded spell list. But if you're spamming shields as reactions, smites on weapon attacks, quickened booming blade cantrips as bonus actions and using your 3rd level slots for Spirit guardians, you're going to run out of juice (spell slots and sorcery points) after 2 fights.

They'll be pretty awesome fights of course, and you'll do well.

Problem is now you have another 14 encounters to deal with and no resources left.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah. Because 'Paladin'. As a big priority target striker, that's their role in a party. Run to biggest baddest scary thing and smite it into oblivion. Also; buff nearby PCs as a secondary leader type.
I guess, but I don't know how you're supposed to make that less boring than blowing everything up.



You're going to run out of juice pretty quickly spamming quickened Booming Blades, smiting everything that moves, and blatting 3rd level+ slots on Spirit Guardians (and 1st level slots on shield) aren't you?

After 5 whole levels of Sorcerer (following on from 6 levels of Paladin), you wind up with 2 extra 3rd level slots than you would if you had have stayed a single classed Paladin. Two whole extra slots.

At the same time you get those two slots (and the 3rd level spell Spirt Guardains) at 11th level, the single classed Paladin gets improved divine smite (+1d8 damage to each and every melee weapon attack he makes).

You also get an expanded spell list. But if you're spamming shields as reactions, smites on weapon attacks, quickened booming blade cantrips as bonus actions and using your 3rd level slots for Spirit guardians, you're going to run out of juice (spell slots and sorcery points) after 2 fights.

They'll be pretty awesome fights of course, and you'll do well.

Problem is now you have another 14 encounters to deal with and no resources left.

No, not really. The Sorcadin doesn't need to do anything but sit around with Spirit Guardians up, maybe do some attack and dodge actions for most of these fights. The damage I present is JUST spirit guardians, which isn't really an accurate measure even then. It's a 10 minutes long spell, which will last through multiple fights. No quickening, no booming blade (assuming AL legal, and the OP does have XGtE, which is where Divine Soul is from, PHB+1 rule applies). You probably wouldn't have to smite at all to get more damage over the whole dungeon.

But like I said, there's no time crunch or any reason why the PCs couldn't just leave half way through. The area is wide open, the boss is literally too fat to chase after them, and hill giants are pretty dumb on the best of days. If you're out of resource, just go make a camp across the river.

Of course, this is only for dungeon runs. For a normal adventuring day or a module, which will have like 3 fights, sorcadin then can go all out with the nova. Flaming Sphere and Spirit Guardians are only really used for conversing spell slots or clearing a bunch of little guys, otherwise more direct spells give better DPR on shorter fights.

[Malifice]

]Of course, this is only for dungeon runs. For a normal adventuring day or a module, which will have like 3 fights.

No they dont.

If your games involve hitting 3 dungeon rooms, dealing with 3 encounters and then falling back to long rest, we're playing different games.

Heck; the DMG references the expectation that your long rest resources (slots, sorcery points) are only supposed to be exhausted after 6-8 fights (not 3) during which time you are exptected to get 2-3 short rests.

When I look at all the modules produced for 5e so far, they contain numerous little dungeon areas. Heck the first one they introduced HotDQ had no chance to long rest in its first section (the dragon fight and seige) and no chance to long rest in its next section (the infiltration of the bandit camp, and storming of the bandit dungeon).

I get that your DM doesnt police the adventuring day, and I get that the '5 minute work day' is a thing. It's not consistent across all DMs though. When I DM I put my PCs on a doom clock (stop the ritual/ secure the macguffin/ save the princess by midnight etc or else [bad thing happens]) or I simply have the NPC monsters act smart and reinforce the rooms already hit with additional monsters, or simply move taking the treasure with them.

You dont see special forces groups assaulting a compound in Afghanistan, storming the first few rooms and unloading everything they have only to fall back overnight and continue the assault the next day.

For very good reason. It strains belief, breaks verisimilitude, is gamist to all heck, punishes short rest based classes like the fighter, monk and warlock (three class that probably suck in your games) and is repetitive and boring.

If it works in your games though, go nuts.

[Snowbluff]

No they dont.

If your games involve hitting 3 dungeon rooms, dealing with 3 encounters and then falling back to long rest, we're playing different games.

Heck; the DMG references the expectation that your long rest resources (slots, sorcery points) are only supposed to be exhausted after 6-8 fights (not 3) during which time you are exptected to get 2-3 short rests.

When I look at all the modules produced for 5e so far, they contain numerous little dungeon areas. Heck the first one they introduced HotDQ had no chance to long rest in its first section (the dragon fight and seige) and no chance to long rest in its next section (the infiltration of the bandit camp, and storming of the bandit dungeon).

I get that your DM doesnt police the adventuring day, and I get that the '5 minute work day' is a thing. It's not consistent across all DMs though. When I DM I put my PCs on a doom clock (stop the ritual/ secure the macguffin/ save the princess by midnight etc or else [bad thing happens]) or I simply have the NPC monsters act smart and reinforce the rooms already hit with additional monsters, or simply move taking the treasure with them.

You dont see special forces groups assaulting a compound in Afghanistan, storming the first few rooms and unloading everything they have only to fall back overnight and continue the assault the next day.

For very good reason. It strains belief, breaks verisimilitude, is gamist to all heck, punishes short rest based classes like the fighter, monk and warlock (three class that probably suck in your games) and is repetitive and boring.

If it works in your games though, go nuts.

This isn't a DM specific thing. Modules and books are literally written this way. The simple fact of the matter is a module can only be so long. Many rounds of combat can bog the session down and cause it to run over 4 hours. Sometimes you're just there at an inn, the bard poisons everyone, you have to check out a graveyard, then do 3 more fights and tell the mayor who you think did everything.

[Waazraath]

I really don't understand why this argument goes on as long as it goes. Over 10 post ago Malifice mentioned that Snowbluff probably doesn't use the recommended number of encounters. Snowbluff admidted so. Yes, in that case, a burst class is extremely powerful with only a few encounters/day. That's really common knowledge. Besides, the sorcadin in this discussion, the Schrodinger is indeed with him. With reactions as shield/absorb elements, and stuff like fireball, and spirit guardians in a high level slots, you aint gonna smite that much.

What I'm also missing in the whole discussion: some assumptions are being done, like that a sorcadin can cast shield/absorb elements; but ignoring the consequences of that! The sorcadin can only do it with warcaster (or using a sub par fighintg style).

Ignoring the sub par fighitng style for the moment, that means lower cha, or lower str, or both (the multi class is always behind on ASI's, so that's 2). That results in lower saves (due to the cha aura), lower saves for allies, less chance to hit with every attack, less damage with every attack... it also robs you of the possiblity to optimize a full class pally with feats; a full pally can max out str, cha and add 1 or 2 (when vhuman) feats. That gives great options, like Pole Arm Master (3 or 4 attacks / round, that gives a lot of extra 1d8 damage from level 11 onward); or shield master, to double crit chances. This soradin will at the most have 4 ASI's, one of which goes to War Caster, so won't ever get to 20 str / 20 cha (unless vhuman), let alone doing other nice things with the feats.

The argument ignores some extremely strong level 15 pally abilities that there are (depending on the subclass); etc. etc. etc.

All in all, a statement like:


In short, pure paladin is soundly trounced in every way except for high level auras.

is really silly. Unless when you play a game in a really weird and un-recommended way, but we already had that.

[Snowbluff]

I really don't understand why this argument goes on as long as it goes. Over 10 post ago Malifice mentioned that Snowbluff probably doesn't use the recommended number of encounters. Snowbluff admidted so. Yes, in that case, a burst class is extremely powerful with only a few encounters/day. That's really common knowledge. Besides, the sorcadin in this discussion, the Schrodinger is indeed with him. With reactions as shield/absorb elements, and stuff like fireball, and spirit guardians in a high level slots, you aint gonna smite that much.



All in all, a statement like:


is really silly. Unless when you play a game in a really weird and un-recommended way, but we already had that.
I showed how it could compete and overwhelm the DPR of the Paladin by using longer duration spells. You don't need to smite that much. In Grudd Haug, assuming each fight is 4 rounds and you're not supposed to rest in between fights, the Spirit Guardians can last the entire dungeon. 4d8 > 2d8.

In short, everything you said is misrepresenting the argument, and therefor is the actually really silly way.


What I'm also missing in the whole discussion: some assumptions are being done, like that a sorcadin can cast shield/absorb elements; but ignoring the consequences of that! The sorcadin can only do it with warcaster (or using a sub par fighintg style).

Ignoring the sub par fighitng style for the moment, that means lower cha, or lower str, or both (the multi class is always behind on ASI's, so that's 2). That results in lower saves (due to the cha aura), lower saves for allies, less chance to hit with every attack, less damage with every attack... it also robs you of the possiblity to optimize a full class pally with feats; a full pally can max out str, cha and add 1 or 2 (when vhuman) feats. That gives great options, like Pole Arm Master (3 or 4 attacks / round, that gives a lot of extra 1d8 damage from level 11 onward); or shield master, to double crit chances. This soradin will at the most have 4 ASI's, one of which goes to War Caster, so won't ever get to 20 str / 20 cha (unless vhuman), let alone doing other nice things with the feats.

The argument ignores some extremely strong level 15 pally abilities that there are (depending on the subclass); etc. etc. etc.

If you go without an ASI, that's the difference between having 16 Str and and 18 Str. It's not a big deal, considering that with your melee damage mostly comes from smite, which effectively always hits because you can choose to trigger it after you hit.

If the Paladin grabs Polearm master, his 1d4+4+1d8 is about 2d8+2, when it hits, which hits for 0. Considering that spells will save for half, and that spirit guardians is an AoE that will be killing multiple foes per round on top of the normal attacks and same number of smites the paladin gets. Now remember, this is the type of encounter that favors the Paladin BEST, not 100% of encounters, and Paladin still loses.

Both should probably just do V Human. V Human is a stupidly strong option if you're planning on taking a feat.

[PeteNutButter]

In short, I break it down to a difference in playstyle. When properly played, a sorcadin is a reserve unit. When I play my sorcadin, I spend most of the day doing very little in fights which my teammates appear to have a handle on. Just attack, and maybe a shield spell or two depending on how hard it looks like hits are going to hurt. That way, when the big bad shows up, you have everything you need to throw the kitchen sink at them and NOVA BBEG down hard.

In practice, this means you spend a lot of fights doing little, and often end the day with an excess of resources left if nothing sufficiently difficult showed up. It might even feel like you made a mistake in pacing your resources so scrupulously, but that is the way to do it.

You have to be ok with letting your teammates do the heavy lifting throughout most of the adventuring day, so that when the bard calls, "Achilles!" you can come running up and one-punch a dragon or some such.

If you want to be steady and use your resources throughout the day for a steady output play a paladin straight. If you want to sit on all those resources and dump every last one in the big fight play a sorcadin. If you want to have small spikes throughout the day, play a paladin/warlock.

Most paladin builds can only manage to spend 2 or 3 spell slots a round. Only the sorcadin can burn through all his spell slots like fire through paper, spending up to 5 spells slots a round. That's both it's greatest strength and it's greatest weakness.