Lol @nat 20 instant kill house rule

[MrWesson22]

So, I just saw a DM whose house rule is to give PCs instant kills on anything with a natural 20. I don't think he realized how ridiculous this is, but let's have some fun with it. The best nat 20 fishing build I can think of off the top of my head would be a half elf warlock 2/shadow sorcerer x. At level 6, pick up elven accuracy. With a quickened eldritch blast in darkness (with devils sight), you would make 4 attack rolls each rolling 3 D20s. If you had 2 of the same build in the party, at level 7, one twins haste while the other concentrates on darkness. Each player would roll 12 D20s per round, 6 more if they add a quickened eldritch blast. At 11, they would each be rolling 27 D20s on a quickened EB round. So, you burned 1 2nd level spell slot, one 3rd level spell slot, and a total of 7 SP between the 2 of you to roll 54 D20s in the second round.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That is rather absurd. If the DM uses that rule against the players, it might be painful. Especially if they roll like my DM, who tends to roll (in the open) multiple crits per session.

[MrWesson22]

Apparently, he makes monsters/NPCs do double damage (double everything - including ability mod, GWM, whatever) on crits. Only PCs get instant kills on nat 20s.

[MrWesson22]

But yeah. It is beyond absurd. As a player, I was notorious for my horrible rolls. I tracked every D20 roll for 3 sessions in a row. My average was an 8.2.

[sithlordnergal]

That's an odd rule...I could maaaybe see it if you had the players make a confirmation roll to see if the crit lands, and if you roll a nat 20 on that giving you a chance to insta-kill. But even then I'd likely give players one more confirmation roll to see if they actually land this uber hit. That way it is reliant on not one, but two nat 20's in a row followed by hitting the target. But even then, that is way too powerful of an ability.

[Kaliayev]

Apparently, he makes monsters/NPCs do double damage (double everything - including ability mod, GWM, whatever) on crits. Only PCs get instant kills on nat 20s.

So all I gotta do to beat Tiamat is crit fish? Is the game even challenging at that point? What happens if a PC rolls a natural one?

[sophontteks]

Lucky feat is mandatory to turn a few 1's into insta kills. Divination wizards may be able to choose certain targets to die if they roll well.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Haste only gets you another weapon attack no 3x Eldritch blast for you. Though this DM might not know that or might just handwave it.

[MrWesson22]

Haste only gets you another weapon attack no 3x Eldritch blast for you. Though this DM might not know that or might just handwave it.

Ah, right. I always forget about that. To be fair, I never play blasters. All my casters are support/control, so even when I'm casting haste, it is on someone else.

[Willie the Duck]

What does this DM throw against the party? If the standard opposition is a horde of 200 kobolds, and a crit is almost assuredly a kill anyways, they might not have noticed the difference.

[PartyChef]

This seems like a poor conversion from the 3.5 critical rules. Then, you could roll a crit chance on a 20, you would then roll another attack which if it hit would "confirm" the crit. If you got a second nat 20 to confirm the crit you could roll again and if that also hit, it was an instant kill. I believe they pulled the rule because it had memorably awful effects for PCs (one example that comes to mind is a story of a guy fishing, crit failed his skill check causing the DM to roll an attack, the DM rolled 3 20's and killed the guy with a itty bitty piranha nipping his jugular).

[jollydm]

So, everyone has Vorpal Swords, essentially.

[Spore]

Divination wizards may be able to choose certain targets to die if they roll well.

You are already dead! Nani?

[Asmotherion]

I actually think it's fine for non-boss fights, if the tone of the campain is "Legendary Hack and Slash". Or, on the other hand, if he just wants a way to make combat less relevant in the campain.

As long as you include a cool description, and not just "you rolled a 20, you killed a goblin" I think it would turn out better in actual play than it sounds in actual game mechanics.

PS: The fastest abuse I can think of is a Warlock/Divine Soul Sorcerer with Eldritch Blast, Dance Macabre and Animate Dead. Lots of opportunities to roll those 20's in the same turn.

[DarkKnightJin]

While it'd be fun narratively, I'd work with the confirmation.
They score a Crit? Great, you already double the dice.
Roll the d20 again for me. Another nat 20? Sweet, you just smoked this mook, don't bother rolling the damage for the attack.

PC's and 'boss' monsters are exempt from this, to avoid a mook getting lucky and ending a PC because of some bad luck on the player's side.

I wouldn't negate the crit if the second d20 roll wouldn't 'hit', since it's just to see if it's an instakill.

As someone put it: Vorpal weapons for the PCs.

[Darkbru]

While it'd be fun narratively, I'd work with the confirmation.
They score a Crit? Great, you already double the dice.
Roll the d20 again for me. Another nat 20? Sweet, you just smoked this mook, don't bother rolling the damage for the attack.

PC's and 'boss' monsters are exempt from this, to avoid a mook getting lucky and ending a PC because of some bad luck on the player's side.

I wouldn't negate the crit if the second d20 roll wouldn't 'hit', since it's just to see if it's an instakill.

As someone put it: Vorpal weapons for the PCs.

I like that idea. I’d be down to roll a second d20 to see if I can get an insta-kill. But I wouldn’t really like the idea of a single d20 roll meaning an insta-kill. As a leve 1 monk the other night I rolled a couple of crits against an ogre, wouldn’t feel right if my unarmed attack that’s supposed to deal 1d4 damage killed that fool.

[ATHATH]

This seems like a poor conversion from the 3.5 critical rules. Then, you could roll a crit chance on a 20, you would then roll another attack which if it hit would "confirm" the crit. If you got a second nat 20 to confirm the crit you could roll again and if that also hit, it was an instant kill. I believe they pulled the rule because it had memorably awful effects for PCs (one example that comes to mind is a story of a guy fishing, crit failed his skill check causing the DM to roll an attack, the DM rolled 3 20's and killed the guy with a itty bitty piranha nipping his jugular).
Uh, that's a house rule, and a mediocre one at that.

Please tell me that that DM didn't use critical fumbles too.

[Bubzors]

That's an odd rule...I could maaaybe see it if you had the players make a confirmation roll to see if the crit lands, and if you roll a nat 20 on that giving you a chance to insta-kill. But even then I'd likely give players one more confirmation roll to see if they actually land this uber hit. That way it is reliant on not one, but two nat 20's in a row followed by hitting the target. But even then, that is way too powerful of an ability.

This is the house rule my table has been playing with for years. Two nat 20's followed by a hit. Doesn't happen often, but just enough to make things exciting. It has made for dramatic battles where a PC went from almost certainly dead to he manages to slay a big opponent and escape alive

[CircleOfTheRock]

So all I gotta do to beat Tiamat is crit fish? Is the game even challenging at that point? What happens if a PC rolls a natural one?
Looking at the pure stupidity of that houserule, I’m assuming that they somehow kill themselves on a natural one.

[Lombra]

So, everyone has Vorpal Swords, essentially.

*better vorpal swords, since vorpal swords "only" cut heads, and this would work against monsters that don't need a head..

[Vogie]

This'd be absurd if it was universal.

However, it's not a bad idea for hordes, etcetera. Kind of a halfway point between 5e monsters and 4e minions.

I wouldn't mind revisiting the confirmed critical for boss encounters, though.

[Willie the Duck]

This'd be absurd if it was universal.

However, it's not a bad idea for hordes, etcetera. Kind of a halfway point between 5e monsters and 4e minions.

I wouldn't mind revisiting the confirmed critical for boss encounters, though.

Also probably not a bad thing for a 'watch the world burn' gonzo session or the like. Kinda reminds me of some house rule critical fumble tables that circulated at some point (probably the 80s or early 90s, so 2e or BECMI maybe) where your character had a .1% chance per swing (99 or 00 on a fumble, which happened on a nat. 1) or something of auto-decapitating an ally.

[nickl_2000]

I actually think it's fine for non-boss fights, if the tone of the campain is "Legendary Hack and Slash". Or, on the other hand, if he just wants a way to make combat less relevant in the campain.

As long as you include a cool description, and not just "you rolled a 20, you killed a goblin" I think it would turn out better in actual play than it sounds in actual game mechanics.

PS: The fastest abuse I can think of is a Warlock/Divine Soul Sorcerer with Eldritch Blast, Dance Macabre and Animate Dead. Lots of opportunities to roll those 20's in the same turn.

I think the worst abuse possible for this would be a Druid summoning Velociraptors with the conjure animals spell. They get 2 attacks and pack tactics. So, that is 32 rolls of a d20 each round.

[DarkKnightJin]

I like that idea. I’d be down to roll a second d20 to see if I can get an insta-kill. But I wouldn’t really like the idea of a single d20 roll meaning an insta-kill. As a leve 1 monk the other night I rolled a couple of crits against an ogre, wouldn’t feel right if my unarmed attack that’s supposed to deal 1d4 damage killed that fool.

In that instance, I'm fairly sure the Ogre is a 'boss' monster, and therefore immune to the Vorpal Fist strikes.

[sophontteks]

OP didn't mention any immunities. Crit a 1d4 punch, kill a dragon.

[Psikerlord]

I think I really like this rule actually - with a limit of once per round, and bosses are immune. Naturally only for PC attacks, monsters dont do this.

I think it would speed up combat nicely and make for some epic 20s.

[Temperjoke]

I dunno, if it's only against less important mooks, I think it'd be a nice way for melee player to feel epic at upper levels.

[Eric Diaz]

Not the most absurd rule I've ever heard TBH...

In my retroclone, I just let PCs add their level to damage on a natural 20, instead.

The effect is often the same against mooks.

[ATHATH]

I dunno, if it's only against less important mooks, I think it'd be a nice way for melee player to feel epic at upper levels.
Maybe it could be an ability of a homebrewed subclass?

Just off of the top of my head...

Bully (Fighter Subclass):

3rd level ability: You can determine the CR of any creature that you can currently see as a free action.

7th level ability: Whenever you roll a natural twenty on an attack roll against a creature, you may instantly kill that creature instead of rolling for damage, provided that that creature's CR is less than your character level. This ability requires no action to use.

10th level ability: Whenever you roll a natural twenty on an saving throw against an ability or spell used or cast by a creature that you can currently see, you may, as a reaction, instantly kill that creature, provided that that creature's CR is less than your character level.

15th level ability: Whenever a creature rolls a natural one on an attack roll of an attack that (currently) targets you, you may, as a reaction, instantly kill that creature, provided that that creature's CR is less than your character level.

18th level ability: Your 10th and 15th level abilities can be used with a free action instead of a reaction.

Do note that these abilities are NOT constrained by distance (yes, even the 10th and 15th level abilities).

Can free actions be used when it is not your turn?

Is this any good as a subclass idea? Should I tweak the CR requirements?

[Spacehamster]

Could be a good rule against mooks I guess but not 20 and kill an ancient red dragon for example is absurd. xD

[Maelynn]

Please tell me that that DM didn't use critical fumbles too.

My first DM used this rule. I was a new player (3.5) and the only bit of experience I had was from playing NWN (3.0).

My character wielded a Dwarven Waraxe. I landed my first crit... in my own foot.

[Arkhios]

You are already dead! Nani?

This made me LOL quite literally in a public place surrounded by lots of people I don't know... :smallbiggrin: