Malleable illusion + shadow blade

[Lord8Ball]

I am thinking about using the malleable illusion to shape the shadow blade into an arrow to increase its range when shot from a bow. I've been thinking that this could be used by an archer to high effect. You obviously can't use this in melee with a proficiency mod though without tavern brawler. What is your opinion on this use and can it even work?
Edit: I kinda screwed up on the question I wanted to ask. What I wanted to know if you could shape shadow blade with malleable illusion into another weapon like an arrow and then illusory reality it into that weapon. Would it still have the properties of the spell and the "real forms" properties as long as the spell is in effect?

[sophontteks]

You can change an illusion but it must still follow the spell parameters. Changing it into an arrow isn't within the spell parameters.

[jaappleton]

You create a simple weapon with which you are proficient. The weapon itself has the light, thrown and finesse properties.

Right? We all agree on that. That's within the spell parameters.

Is there anything that stops it from also being a 2H Heavy weapon, so long as your character has proficiency?

[tieren]

You create a simple weapon with which you are proficient. The weapon itself has the light, thrown and finesse properties.

Right? We all agree on that. That's within the spell parameters.

Is there anything that stops it from also being a 2H Heavy weapon, so long as your character has proficiency?

The spell can't make a weapon with the Heavy property, you could malleable make it look like a 2H Battle Axe if you like the look, but it would still have the light, thrown, and finesse properties.

[sophontteks]

You create a simple weapon with which you are proficient. The weapon itself has the light, thrown and finesse properties.

Right? We all agree on that. That's within the spell parameters.

Is there anything that stops it from also being a 2H Heavy weapon, so long as your character has proficiency?

Yes. Thats not within the parameters of the spell. Its light, thrown, finesse. It doesn't say that it can be a twohanded greatsword.

[Lord8Ball]

Ha imaging someone throwing shadow great clubs. @jaappleton That is a pretty neat idea because if that works then people can make use of their feats according to the weapon such as GWM. "It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient". Which could mean it doesn't have to be a simple weapon just counts as one."You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom into your hand". It doesn't specify size shape or type of sword so with malleable illusion the 2h could be possible though it would be finesse, light, and throwable.

[sophontteks]

Just to clarify, you can't do anything with malleable illusion that you couldn't do during the spells initial casting. you can't even make the shadow blade look like anything other then a sword of solidified gloom. The most malleable illusion could do with this spell is change its appearance, so long as its still a sword of solidified gloom. You could, say, change it to look like a scimitar of solidified gloom when before it was a longsword of solidified gloom. You could even make it look like a greatsword of solidified gloom.

[Garfunion]

Ha imaging someone throwing shadow great clubs. @jaappleton That is a pretty neat idea because if that works then people can make use of their feats according to the weapon such as GWM. "It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient". Which could mean it doesn't have to be a simple weapon just counts as one."You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom into your hand". It doesn't specify size shape or type of sword so with malleable illusion the 2h could be possible though it would be finesse, light, and throwable.
That is not how the spell works. You need to look at shadow blade as it’s own stand alone weapon on the PHB weapon table. You can make it look like any weapon you want but, the properties and name of the shadow blade remain the same and can not be added to.

[Lord8Ball]

That is not how the spell works. You need to look at shadow blade as it’s own stand-alone weapon on the PHB weapon table. You can make it look like any weapon you want but, the properties and name of the shadow blade remain the same and can not be added to.
Well, that sucks.

[Tetrasodium]

You create a simple weapon with which you are proficient. The weapon itself has the light, thrown and finesse properties.

Right? We all agree on that. That's within the spell parameters.

Is there anything that stops it from also being a 2H Heavy weapon, so long as your character has proficiency?
Not quite...

Malleable Illusions
Starting at 6th level, when you cast an illusion spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your
action to change the nature of that illusion (using the spell’s normal parameters for the illusion), provided that you can see the illusion.

[quote]
SHADOW BLADE

2nd—leve] illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, 8

Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword
of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts
until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon
with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic
damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown

SHADOW BLADE

2nd—leve] illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, 8

Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword
of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts
until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon
with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic
damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown

[quote]SHADOW BLADE
2nd—Ievel illusion
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrownproperties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.If you drop the weapon or throw it, it dissipates at the end of the turn. Thereafter, while the spell persists, you can use a bonus action to cause the sword to reappear in your hand.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a 3rd- or 4th—level spell slot, the damage increases to 3:18. When you cast it using a 5th— or 6th-level spell slot, the damage increases to 4d8. When you cast it using a spell slot of 7th level or higher, the damage increases to 5d8.

properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage. If you drop the weapon or throw it, it dissipates at the end of the turn. Thereafter, while the spell persists, you can use a bonus action to cause the sword to reappear in your hand.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a 3rd- or 4th—level spell slot, the damage increases to 3:18. When you cast it using a 5th— or 6th-level spell slot, the damage increases to 4d8. When you cast it using a spell slot of 7th level or higher, the damage increases to 5d8.

properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.

If you drop the weapon or throw it, it dissipates at the end of the turn. Thereafter, while the spell persists, you can use a bonus action to cause the sword to reappear in your hand.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a 3rd- or 4th—level spell slot, the damage increases to 3d8. When you cast it using a 5th- or 6th-level spell slot, the damage increases to 4d8. When you cast it using a spell slot of 7th level or higher, the damage increases to 5d8.

Given that Mi is a 6th level ability, I'd probably allow swapping both the light & finesse properties for heavy & maybe allow swapping one of them for heavy but I'd need to think about it more

[sophontteks]

You can't even mallable to make it look like any weapon. It has to be a sword of solidified gloom.

[jaappleton]

Soooo, long story short...

What can Malleable Illusion do with Shadow Blade?

Turns out, not much.

Right?

[Garfunion]

Just to clarify, you can't do anything with malleable illusion that you couldn't do during the spells initial casting. you can't even make the shadow blade look like anything other then a sword of solidified gloom. The most malleable illusion could do with this spell is change its appearance, so long as its still a sword of solidified gloom. You could, say, change it to look like a scimitar of solidified gloom when before it was a longsword of solidified gloom. You could even make it look like a greatsword of solidified gloom.
The ability to change the look of the shadow blade is up to the caster (they don’t need malleable illusion). If the caster wants to make their shadow blade a bow they can, however it does not gain any of the properties of a bow. Pulling the string back on the bow and “conjuring” an arrow is just the caster throwing the weapon. “sword of solidified gloom” is flavor text.

[sophontteks]

Soooo, long story short...

What can Malleable Illusion do with Shadow Blade?

Turns out, not much.

Right?
Right.

but its still a great ability. Its great with illusion spells with very wide parameters. It turns silent image into a 15 square foot block of imaginary clay. The original silent image only lets you move the image.


The ability to change the look of the shadow blade is up to the caster (they don’t need malleable illusion). If the caster wants to make their shadow blade a bow they can, however it does not gain any of the properties of a bow. Pulling the string back on the bow and “conjuring” an arrow is just the caster throwing the weapon. “sword of solidified gloom” is flavor text.
I must be reading a different version of the spell. I just googled shadow blade and it specifies that its a sword of solidified gloom. I'm reading from the 5e wiki.

[Lord8Ball]

Thanks for the help everyone :D I just found out I could just do spell sniper for the bow thing. Yet still, I think I may have confused the abilities since I don't have the book with me though it still is an interesting topic. How would illusory reality work on a shaped shadow blade? That was what I meant to ask in the first place sorry for the confusion:smalleek:.

[Garfunion]

I must be reading a different version of the spell. I just googled shadow blade and it specifies that its a sword of solidified gloom. I'm reading from the 5e wiki.
Again that is flavor text, it does not dictate its properties.
“It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60).”
These are it’s properties.

Do you think Pact of the Blade also needs to be a sword?

[sophontteks]

Again that is flavor text, it does not dictate its properties.
“It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60).”
These are it’s properties.

Do you think Pact of the Blade also needs to be a sword?
Sorry man, spell descriptions are not flavor. It says its a sword so by RAW it is a sword. Anything else is a houserule.

If you read pact of the blade it doesn't say in the description that it must be a sword.

Pact of the blade:
You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming Resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Shadow blade
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom into your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.

Pact, any weapon. Shadow, very specifically a sword of solidified gloom.

[PhantomSoul]

Thanks for the help everyone :D I just found out I could just do spell sniper for the bow thing. Yet still, I think I may have confused the abilities since I don't have the book with me though it still is an interesting topic. How would illusory reality work on a shaped shadow blade? That was what I meant to ask in the first place sorry for the confusion:smalleek:.


I l l u s o r y R e a l i t y
By 14th level, you have learned the secret o f weaving
shadow magic into your illusions to give them a semireality.
When you cast an illusion spell o f 1st level or
higher, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical
object that is part o f the illusion and make that object
real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action
while the spell is ongoing. The object remains real for
1 minute. For example, you can create an illusion o f a
bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough
for your allies to cross.
The object can’t deal damage or otherwise
directly harm anyone.

Based on the bolded and underlined bits, respectively, you might not want to and/or be able to, depending on how your DM would rule those restrictions. (Other restrictions may apply. See DM for details.)

[Lord8Ball]

And then that is where I forgot to read the nonmagical bit lol.

[Garfunion]

Sorry man, spell descriptions are not flavor. It says its a sword so by RAW it is a sword. Anything else is a houserule.

If you read pact of the blade it doesn't say in the description that it must be a sword.

Pact of the blade:
You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming Resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Shadow blade
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom into your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.

Pact, any weapon. Shadow, very specifically a sword of solidified gloom.
Sorry if you are reading it as RAW the “Blade” part the the name must also be incorporated, so any “blade” weapon can be your pact weapon.

[sophontteks]

Sorry if you are reading it as RAW the “Blade” part the the name must also be incorporated, so any “blade” weapon can be your pact weapon.
You don't have to be mad. You can play it as you want. Specific vs. general right? Pact of the blade specifically allows you to create any weapon. Besides that, its just a name.

My real name means fig farmer, but I'm not a fig farmer. The order of the pheonix aren't literally flaming birds.

The description can't be more clear. Its not a minor illusions cantrip that also does 2d8 damage. Its a sword.

[Garfunion]

You don't have to be mad. You can play it as you want. Specific vs. general right? Pact of the blade specifically allows you to create any weapon. Besides that, its just a name.

My real name means fig farmer, but I'm not a fig farmer. The order of the pheonix aren't literally flaming birds.

The description can't be more clear. Its not a minor illusions cantrip that also does 2d8 damage. Its a sword.
The first sentence for most spells describe what the spell looks like(this is flavor text). All other properties are the RAW.
Even the creators have said you can make your spell look like anything as long as it doesn’t change the properties of the spell.

[sophontteks]

What a spell looks like is not flavor. Show me where it says the first sentence of a spell is optional and I'll bow before your decision. Though, fair warning. My shadowblade just happens to look like the Demogorgon. I am but a speck compared to my mighty weapon. Still does 2d8 though. Should be a good time.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I don't think it would matter if your shadow blade looks like a swiss army pizza cutter. Nothing's gonna change the spell parameters.

[tieren]

What a spell looks like is not flavor. Show me where it says the first sentence of a spell is optional and I'll bow before your decision. Though, fair warning. My shadowblade just happens to look like the Demogorgon. I am but a speck compared to my mighty weapon. Still does 2d8 though. Should be a good time.

Where you run into trouble is there is no rule saying what a sword looks like. There is nothign in any book published by WOTC that clearly states "swords can not look like hammers".

If I am wrong about that please provide a citation.

Otherwise my sword of gloom can look like a great club as long as it remains in its heart of hearts, a sword.

[sophontteks]

Where you run into trouble is there is no rule saying what a sword looks like. There is nothign in any book published by WOTC that clearly states "swords can not look like hammers".

If I am wrong about that please provide a citation.

Otherwise my sword of gloom can look like a great club as long as it remains in its heart of hearts, a sword.

Any dictionary should suffice...

But seriously why do you care so much. The DM would surely allow most of these. Probably not the bow that mechanically functions like a sword. The RAW text is pretty clear though.

[Garfunion]

Any dictionary should suffice...

But seriously why do you care so much. The DM would surely allow most of these. Probably not the bow that mechanically functions like a sword. The RAW text is pretty clear though.
Here is a “sword bow”
https://goo.gl/images/DmGmma

Also a shadow blade isn’t a sword.
Sword
a weapon with a long metal blade and a hilt with a hand guard, used for thrusting or striking and now typically worn as part of ceremonial dress.

Last time a checked “solidified gloom“ isn’t metal.

[Segev]

Better spells for use with Malleable Illusion include creation, mirage arcane, and major image upcast to a 6th level spell slot (making it permanent duration). Also of potential interest, though not as much as it would be if it retained the ability to channel magic through it, is project image. Programed Image has potential, since the programming can be changed, and magic mouth becomes something you can rework to say anything you want, though the utility of that is questionable.

[sophontteks]

Here is a “sword bow”
https://goo.gl/images/DmGmma

Also a shadow blade isn’t a sword.
Sword
a weapon with a long metal blade and a hilt with a hand guard, used for thrusting or striking and now typically worn as part of ceremonial dress.

Last time a checked “solidified gloom“ isn’t metal.
Sword bow isn't a sword. Its a sword bow.

I only said sword for its convience as I already specified earlier that its a sword made of solidified gloom. You can't make a metal sword with the spell. It must be a sword of solidified gloom. Which, if your stuggling with what that means, solidified gloom would be replacing metal in the description of a sword.

Try harder.

[Garfunion]

Sword bow isn't a sword. Its a sword bow. It is still a “sword”.


I only said sword for its convience as I already specified earlier that its a sword made of solidified gloom. You can't make a metal sword with the spell. It must be a sword of solidified gloom. Which, if your stuggling with what that means, solidified gloom would be replacing metal in the description of a sword.

Try harder.
If I’m replacing the metal then it is not a sword as per the definition I gave you (which is what you told a poster to do). Just face the facts, the use of the word sword is to help discride the shadow blade (flavor text) not define its properties. A caster can make their spells look like anything they want as long as the parameter/properties remain the same (and DM approval).

Also a warlock’s pact blade can look like what ever they want, as per the side note on page 108 of the PHB. Summoning your pact weapon functions as a spell. The properties of the weapon come from the weapon table the look is up to the warlock. I can make a great-sword look like it is made out of a balloon or a mace look like a lollipop sucker.

[sophontteks]

It is still a “sword”.

No, its not. It is a sword bow. It is niether a sword nor a bow, it is its own unique creation. Compound words are not inherently either of the words used in their name. Unless you wish to argue that a doghouse is a type of dog.

Again we are back to names. Names are not descriptions. A swordfish is not a sword either. I can name my cat sword and he too would not be a sword.



If I’m replacing the metal then it is not a sword as per the definition I gave you. Just face the facts, the use of the word sword is to help discride the shadow blade (flavor text) not define its properties. A caster can make their spells look like anything they want as long as the parameter/properties remain the same (and DM approval).

Also a warlock’s pact blade can look like what ever they want, as per the side note on page 108 of the PHB. Summoning your pact weapon functions as a spell. The properties of the weapon come from the weapon table the look is up to the warlock.
The description has modified the definition of a sword appropriatly. Would you struggle to understand what a "Wooden sword" is, or would you be able to understand that this would imply that it is a sword made out of wood rather then metal? This is no different. Its a solidified gloom sword. The description was modified, but your pretty off base if you think all the entire definition of a sword is suddenly meaningless.

And back to the Warlock pact of the blade. That is a name. It could be called the warlock pact of the chickenrat for all I care. I'm tired of trying to explain how names work. I've already gone through this.

Try harder.

[Garfunion]

Ok let’s step back.

What does a magic sword look like to you, without using the weapon table because the spell isn’t doing that.

[sophontteks]

Step back to where you weren't shut down? I'm cool here. I'm fine with any sword that matches the definition of a sword and aware that this in itself is vague. There are many types of swords. As long as it matches the definition of a sword, is made of solidified gloom rather then metal, and is magical, I'm cool by RAW.

RAI I would insist the sword actually be light and of a reasonable size.

[Garfunion]

Step back to where you weren't shut down? I'm cool here. I'm fine with any sword that matches the definition of a sword and aware that this in itself is vague. There are many types of swords. As long as it matches the definition of a sword, is made of solidified gloom rather then metal, and is magical, I'm cool by RAW.

RAI I would insist the sword actually be light and of a reasonable size.

I wasn’t shut down you didn’t read all my post.
Also my sword bow fits the definition of a sword. Like you said there are many types of swords

[MeeposFire]

Any dictionary should suffice...

But seriously why do you care so much. The DM would surely allow most of these. Probably not the bow that mechanically functions like a sword. The RAW text is pretty clear though.

Lol I am sure they are thinking the same thing of "why do you care so much"? I am fairly certain that they feel the same way that what they are saying is fully within the rules as they see it so stating that "it is RAW" is alone not good enough to ask why they care so much.

This whole thing stinks of the classic "can't leave somebody is wrong on the internet" problem. Somebody can post the web comic of that.

Also I am not arguing about whether you are ultimately wrong or right just saying it is funny that you ask why they care so much when the question clearly applies to yourself as well.

[sophontteks]

Lol I am sure they are thinking the same thing of "why do you care so much"? I am fairly certain that they feel the same way that what they are saying is fully within the rules as they see it so stating that "it is RAW" is alone not good enough to ask why they care so much.

This whole thing stinks of the classic "can't leave somebody is wrong on the internet" problem. Somebody can post the web comic of that.

Also I am not arguing about whether you are ultimately wrong or right just saying it is funny that you ask why they care so much when the question clearly applies to yourself as well.
Its true. Turns out I quite enjoy taking on such egregious logical fallacies.

[Lombra]

I'd house rule the hell out of it and allow it to be any weapon with malleable illusion, it just fits.

[tieren]

Suppose I fashioned a metal cat and affixed a hilt to its tail so it looked when held like a cat being swung about by the tail, but I sharpened all the rest of it so if swung properly it could cut through stuff. Could I then say I have a sword that looks like a cat being swung by the tail.

If I were in a world where such a thing had been crafted even once, could I then use malleable illusion to make my solidified gloom appear to be a cat being swung by the tail?

[JackPhoenix]

I wasn’t shut down you didn’t read all my post.
Also my sword bow fits the definition of a sword. Like you said there are many types of swords

Not really. It's a bow with stupid sharp bits on the ends. There's nothing sword-like about it.