View Full Version : Weapon Finesse, TWF, somatic components
A fellow player would like to TWF with his dex-based spellthief, and still have a hand free in order to be able to cast.
I suggested:
Somatic Weaponry feat
Weapon Focus (daggers), then a Daggerspell Mage dip
Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Gnome Quickrazor, that can be drawn/sheathed as a free action
Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Lynxpaw, finessable double weapon, held with one hand while casting
Martial Weapon Proficiency in Armor Spikes or similar to leave a hand free
Using a Hidden Blade from Complete Scoundrel, albeit they impose a -2 penalty to hit
Buying Claw Gloves from M.I.C., they count as a couple of punch daggers but your hands count as "free"
Almost every option requires a feat, except Hidden Blades and Claw Gloves.
His attack bonus is low enough to discourage him using Hidden Blades, and we're not able to just go to a magic shop and purchase whichever magic item we like to, so he's not guaranteed to ever find a couple of Claw Gloves.
Do you have any other suggestion to give him, possibly not costing a feat? (or at least not an useless feat)
Darrin
2018-05-01, 02:03 PM
Do you have any other suggestion to give him, possibly not costing a feat? (or at least not an useless feat)
Use a quarterstaff or another double weapon. Letting go or regripping a two-handed weapon is typically considered a free action.
Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk) is functionally the same as a Glove of Storing but much cheaper. You can stow/retrieve something in your hand as a free action.
Add Improved Unarmed Strike via Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic).
Use an unseen servant (via Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) or otherwise) to pick up any weapon you drop and then hand it back to you when you're done casting.
Add another arm via a graft. See TWF OffHandbook Section IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034748&postcount=12).
Deophaun
2018-05-01, 02:09 PM
Sleight of Hand would let him store and retrieve weapons freely, though without a feat you will need to hit a DC 40 and you'll provoke AoOs. With Master Pickpocket, however, that goes down to a DC 30 while giving you the ability to literally steal the pants off anyone in combat. It's a darn good feat.
Use a quarterstaff or another double weapon. Letting go or regripping a two-handed weapon is typically considered a free action.
Quarterstaff is not finessable.
Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk) is functionally the same as a Glove of Storing but much cheaper. You can stow/retrieve something in your hand as a free action.
Add Improved Unarmed Strike via Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic).
They're all 3.0 except Fanged Ring. Claw Gloves are cheaper than Fanged Ring.
Use an unseen servant (via Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) or otherwise) to pick up any weapon you drop and then hand it back to you when you're done casting.
That was an April's Fool item.
Add another arm via a graft. See TWF OffHandbook Section IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034748&postcount=12).
Quite costly, and still limited by availability.
Darrin
2018-05-01, 02:40 PM
Quarterstaff is not finessable.
Sorry, I missed that as a requirement. Hmm... not sure feycraft (DMGII) would work there.
They're all 3.0 except Fanged Ring. Claw Gloves are cheaper than Fanged Ring.
Ghostwalk received an official 3.5 update, so Glove of the Master Strategist is 3.5 material. Not that this should even be an issue: 3.0 materials are explicitly legal in 3.5 games, unless they've been updated in a subsequent source.
There are advantages to using IUS as your offhand attack. You can Power Attack with it, for example, which isn't possible with armor spikes.
That was an April's Fool item.
It's still an official WotC source and is entirely compliant with the magic item rules.
Quite costly, and still limited by availability.
"Costly" is a relative term. You didn't mention a budget or price range.
Elkad
2018-05-01, 02:55 PM
Seconding quarterstaff. Great option.
No exotic feat needed, and someday he'll be holding a magic stave instead, so he can shoot fireballs or whatever with it.
Seconding quarterstaff. Great option.
No exotic feat needed, and someday he'll be holding a magic stave instead, so he can shoot fireballs or whatever with it.
Not finessable.
We're talking about a 8 str toon. A finessable weapon is needed.
Elkad
2018-05-01, 03:30 PM
Not finessable.
We're talking about a 8 str toon. A finessable weapon is needed.
Whoops, forgot about that, because it's a finesse weapon at my table under long-standing houserule. (as are short and regular spears, and regular spears can be double-weapons)
For a while I had a separate light (or Bo) staff instead. Light weapon at both ends, drop a damage die. (d6 to d4 for Medium). Still a simple weapon (and available to wizards).
Noel Oaksleaf
2018-05-01, 04:07 PM
If your campaign setting restricts access to magic items, I'm afraid your friend has to give up feat economy fixations, as a feat-less option is not exactly available. So, how about the War Caster feat? The only requirement is the ability to cast spells, and in addition to exactly what your spellthief friend needs (provide somatic components while 2WF) it grants some neat side-dish stuff. Recommended.
Also how about burning the character sheet and playing an actual functioning class
mabriss lethe
2018-05-01, 04:21 PM
Gauntlets, spiked or otherwise. Simple weapon proficiency, finesse friendly. Literally keeps your hands free.
Gauntlets, spiked or otherwise. Simple weapon proficiency, finesse friendly. Literally keeps your hands free.
Sometimes you just overlook obvious things, thank you.
Deophaun
2018-05-01, 04:41 PM
I assume the "store" part means hiding a weapon as the skill describes and taking a -20 penalty, but how is retrieving done as a free action?
The same way you would pick anyone's pocket as a free action. Except you're picking your own.
Deophaun
2018-05-01, 05:19 PM
ah I see, so that works even though it says "another creature"?
"Lift a small object from a creature." DC 20.
Berenger
2018-05-01, 05:32 PM
A leather string tied to the end of the weapon. Suggested price about one silver piece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c58SaAs_9nI
Deophaun
2018-05-01, 05:43 PM
ah very nice, I missed that. is this kind of use of the skill often accepted at tables?
Accepted at the ones I've played at. It's not the lightning thief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse) or anything. It's just a small, nice thing mundanes can get.
A leather string tied to the end of the weapon.
That's the wrong way to use a lanyard. If you lose your grip, you've now got a bladed weapon uncontrollably swinging around your legs.
Darrin
2018-05-01, 06:17 PM
ah very nice, I missed that. is this kind of use of the skill often accepted at tables?
The Sleight of Hand skill is pretty borked. It's a DC 40 to "lift" an object from yourself as a free action. However, that free action to hide it is opposed by the observer's Spot check... So even if your SoH check fails, it's still a free action to put it away.(The rules don't say if the object is still considered hidden if the Spot check succeeds.)
I'm not sure if this sort of reading of the SoH rules is commonly accepted at most tables, but the RAW is either broken or an unplayable mess.
Scrapheap
2018-05-01, 06:34 PM
Quarterstaff is not finessable.
With aptitude weapon enchantment it is.
Its a +1 equivalent enchantment out of the Tome of Battle.
Kelb_Panthera
2018-05-01, 07:29 PM
With aptitude weapon enchantment it is.
Its a +1 equivalent enchantment out of the Tome of Battle.
That's a really loose interpretation of that enhancement. 3.5's version of weapon finesse doesn't involve selecting a weapon or specify a weapon in itself. This is the same kind of shenanigans that gets lightning kukris, just toned down a bit.
Hiro Quester
2018-05-01, 07:50 PM
What about improved unarmed strike (and maybe a Monk's belt)?
Then your hands (feet, elbows, whatever) are finessable weapons.
Guys, did you notice the right answer has already been given?
It is spiked gauntlets. It is elegant, core, free.
Why bother with stinky cheese?
Thurbane
2018-05-02, 03:20 AM
In addition to the Lynxpaw already mentioned in the OP, the chain and Kawanga from Oriental Adventures are also finessable double weapons (with the added benefit of reach). Add in the Skillful weapon property (Complete Arcane) and you don't need to spend a feat on proficiency. Could get quite expensive if you need to enchant both ends, however (+2 bonus equivalent).
Another option is an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Heroics (SC), which can give him proficiency with the weapon 2/day for 30 minutes at a time. Or just a regular wand of Heroics, if he wants to UMD it.
The Masters Touch spell (Complete Adventurer) can achieve similar results as a lower level spell (level 1 vs. level 2 for Heroics), but only lasts 1 minute/level.
Guys, did you notice the right answer has already been given?
It is spiked gauntlets. It is elegant, core, free.
Why bother with stinky cheese?
Didn't notice this before posting lol.
Sometimes, though, people just want to answer as a thought exercise, or to provide more options. :smallwink:
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