Roy's Dad

[skinkatlarge]

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase... innocent life.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings.I'm not seriously suggesting Roy's Dad isn't Good - he's on the upper plane there with Roy, after all. But man, all we ever see him do is belittle Roy, insult after insult. Doesn't seem like he's got that nurturing, respect-for-dignity part of being Good down very well, does it? If I saw a father treating his kid like that in real life, I'd want to bitch slap him.

[Aris Katsaris]

Doesn't seem like he's got that nurturing, respect-for-dignity part of being Good down very well, does it?

No he doesn't, but from his perspective he considers fighters undignified, and he wanted Roy to do something with dignity like study magic (like Roy's sister does). So, yeah, he's a stupid jerk, but a well-meaning stupid jerk.

[Roderick_BR]

Yup, he can be an senseless jerk, but still be good. Being good doesn't mean being nice, as long you are not really harm others.
Imagine a sarge that beats up his troops. He can still be considered a lawful good soldier, only a harsh one, with a low charisma.

[Theodoriph]

In addition to everything else, how he treats Roy is only a drop in the ocean. His alignment is based on his entire body of work. It's not just about Roy.

[Elfanatic]

:roy: And then he...he...
:vaarsuvius: Take your time.
:roy's dad: This is ridiculous.
:roy: And then he made fun of my boots...
:vaarsuvius: And how did that make you feel?
:roy: I was a saaad bear.
:roy's dad: What is wrong with you?!
:vaarsuvius: Mr. Greenhilt Senior, in our childhood we are the most vunerable to negatieve influence. You may have scared him for live.
:roy's dad: He was 19 years old when that happened!
:roy: 20! I was 20!
:vaarsuvius: I think this case warrants a rather circumvent treatment.
:roy's dad: And what would that be, you pointy-eared purple pimp?
:vaarsuvius: Paralyse. * rolls a natural twenty *
:roy's dad: Hgggn!
:vaarsuvius: Now Roy, do you want to tell your dad about what is troubling you?
:roy: * sniffle * He can't do anything now?
:vaarsuvius: He is currently immobilised. You can tell him anything you want.
:roy: Good. * swift kick to the crotch *
:roy's dad: Eeeggggggn!
:vaarsuvius: That is not exactly what I had in mind...
:roy: But it is making me feel better. See? * mutiple kicks to the crotch *

[mockingbyrd7]

:roy: And then he...he...
:vaarsuvius: Take your time.
:roy's dad: This is ridiculous.
:roy: And then he made fun of my boots...
:vaarsuvius: And how did that make you feel?
:roy: I was a saaad bear.
:roy's dad: What is wrong with you?!
:vaarsuvius: Mr. Greenhilt Senior, in our childhood we are the most vunerable to negatieve influence. You may have scared him for live.
:roy's dad: He was 19 years old when that happened!
:roy: 20! I was 20!
:vaarsuvius: I think this case warrants a rather circumvent treatment.
:roy's dad: And what would that be, you pointy-eared purple pimp?
:vaarsuvius: Paralyse. * rolls a natural twenty *
:roy's dad: Hgggn!
:vaarsuvius: Now Roy, do you want to tell your dad about what is troubling you?
:roy: * sniffle * He can't do anything now?
:vaarsuvius: He is currently immobilised. You can tell him anything you want.
:roy: Good. * swift kick to the crotch *
:roy's dad: Eeeggggggn!
:vaarsuvius: That is not exactly what I had in mind...
:roy: But it is making me feel better. See? * mutiple kicks to the crotch *

That was... odd.

[factotum]

Even someone who is Good is not locked in to behaving the same way in all circumstances. In this particular instance Roy is a great disappointment to his father, thanks to his taking up fighting instead of wizardry; that disappointment just comes out while Eugene is speaking to him. He wouldn't speak the same way to Julia, or probably to most other people in the world.

[chibibar]

It is kinda like real life when your parents rag on you, but deep down they still love you.

[Elanorea]

Has it been said anywhere that he's good? I always thought of him as more of a True Neutral-y type, like Julia.

[wojonatior]

he is to me more of a NG or LN.

[squidthingy]

you have put yourselves in roy's dad's shoes

Let's say you want you son to be a lawyer but he instead chooses to take over the family trash collecting business. than you die before you can finish an important case. now you believe that if your son was a lawyer instead of a trashman than he could take over and win the case

[Theodoriph]

Has it been said anywhere that he's good? I always thought of him as more of a True Neutral-y type, like Julia.

SOD Spoiler:

Roy's father would have qualified for the Celestial Realm except for the fact that the blood oath of vengeance was still incomplete. To get in to the Celestial Realm he had to manifest to Roy

So yes he is good.

[skinkatlarge]

I probably shouldn't have quoted that alignment stuff - the alignment stuff is irrelevant to my point, which is that the character really, really annoys me. It probably says a lot about my own issues with my own dad's withheld approval, and it's certainly not the first unsympathetic Good character that Rich has given us. I'm not even saying he's as bad as Miko was. I just wanted to vent about what a big mean meanie-head jerk I think he is. :smallamused:

[the_tick_rules]

roy's dad just considers fighters worthless compared to mages, along with a third of this forum.

[factotum]

he is to me more of a NG or LN.

Shame, because he's actually Lawful Good--this has been established quite clearly. (Think about it for a moment--how would he be on first-name terms with a "being of ultimate Law and Good", as seen in strip 292, if he weren't LG?).

[wojonatior]

do i have to be CE to illusion myself as a lich? it was the ultimate being of law and evil beacuse it was a court of law in a LG city.

[factotum]

do i have to be CE to illusion myself as a lich? it was the ultimate being of law and evil beacuse it was a court of law in a LG city.

But he went in there INSTEAD of the actual being of Law and Good they were trying to summon, and he knew the guy by name--that was the point I was trying to make.

[Kreistor]

The Good realms are usually less restrictive to the movement of near-alignments through their terrain. There are few angels defined as being "lawful good": most are "good" and they exist in all of the good realms. It's not like the evil realms, where demons and devils are restricted to their own planes, except when fighting in the Blood Wars.

It is not necessarily true that just because Eugene knows an LG angel that Eugene himself must be LG. He may be NG and merely wanders through the various good realms.

[Lavidor]

The Good realms are usually less restrictive to the movement of near-alignments through their terrain. There are few angels defined as being "lawful good": most are "good" and they exist in all of the good realms. It's not like the evil realms, where demons and devils are restricted to their own planes, except when fighting in the Blood Wars.

It is not necessarily true that just because Eugene knows an LG angel that Eugene himself must be LG. He may be NG and merely wanders through the various good realms.

OtOoPCs Spoiler:
:roy: Now my dad is nothing if not lawful...

[yoshi927]

Roy needs to get the beam out of his own eye if we're going to say that. Just look at how it was with Miko. After the inn burning down thing, all he was doing was trying to get her angry. Heck, he even was willing to leave Elan behind with the bandits.

All I'm saying, if anyone's questionably Good in Roy's family, it's Roy. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaelaroth]

Lawful, yes. Good? I'm not sure. He may just be tied to his oath. And, as we know, ghosts retain all spellcasting abilities. Plane Shift?

[Kreistor]

OtOoPCs Spoiler:
:roy: Now my dad is nothing if not lawful...

Well, I'm not exactly in agreement that Roy is the best judge of his father's character.

Eugene just hasn't seemed to me to be that predictable in his actions. Lawful people follow codes, and Eugene's actions just don't seem to have any restrictive limitations on them.

[lord of pixies]

he to me would fit under the LE charecteristic "will do anything he can justify as right to himself".

[wojonatior]

they did not try to summon the ultimate being of law and good if you pay attention and read it shojo rigged the trial so they could get eugne to communicate with roy beacuse he got stuck in the circle. plus if i remember correctly didn't eugune kill an angel to get in the holy circle or whatever?

[Faramir]

This sounds like the classic case of confusing alignment with personality.

Someone can have poor social skills and still be LG.

LG people can be disappointed by their children, even for lousy reasons, and still be LG.

But yes, Roy's dad is a jerk. A LG jerk, but a jerk nonetheless.

[Setra]

This sounds like the classic case of confusing alignment with personality.
Ones personality can still help define alignment.

Especially in terms of Law/Chaos.

[EvilJames]

they did not try to summon the ultimate being of law and good if you pay attention and read it shojo rigged the trial so they could get eugne to communicate with roy beacuse he got stuck in the circle. plus if i remember correctly didn't eugune kill an angel to get in the holy circle or whatever?

And if you pay attention (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html) you see that Shojo only rigged the trial after Eugene showed up when they tried to summon a being of Pure law and good for advice :smallsmile: (please note that while they don't actually say that's what they are summoning at that point; the people doing the summoning are clerics that would have something to do with the Sapphire Guard and so would have to be LG and would only summon LG outsiders)

(Also note that the angel is not dead just tied up and gagged)

also it should be pointed out that Eugene's alignment has been declared lawful good several times in the comic. He may not act LG all the time but that just means he's not the strictest LG around and thats perfectly fine since he's not a paladin and therefore doesn't need to adhere to their standards of LG.

[Porthos]

There is one huge problem with judging Eugene Greenhilt:

The vast majority of the time we see him is when he is dealing with Roy. We haven't seen him when he is off trying to better the world. We haven't seen him when he is alone with his thoughts. We haven't seen him when he is presented with (non-family related) moral dilemmas. We, quite frankly, haven't seen enough of Eugene Greenhilt to pass judgement on his alignment.

I won't go into SoD spoilers here because they've been done to death on this board. But I will say that people who are interested into looking at possible glimpses to Eugene's worldview and actions might want to check it out. The book is by no means devoted to him, but it does give some grist for the mill.

While LG wouldn't have been my first choice for Eugene's alignment, I will admit, as I said above, we just haven't seen enough of his actions to really debate the matter. After all, alignments are a guideline, not a straitjacket. Roy, Durkon, Miko, Hinjo, Lien, O-Chul and (apparently) Eugene are all Lawful Good. Yet each of them have radically different personalities. And while each of them would probably react similarly in some situations, their motivations and outlooks are all different enough for them to act differently in certain extreme situations.

In other words, alignment ain't the end all and be all of everything. :smallsmile:

[Ecalsneerg]

Well, he did act lawfully: he waited until his wife and him were dead to play the field :P A Chaotic person wouldn't care about the vows.

[Caractacus]

Roy needs to get the beam out of his own eye if we're going to say that. Just look at how it was with Miko. After the inn burning down thing, all he was doing was trying to get her angry. Heck, he even was willing to leave Elan behind with the bandits.

All I'm saying, if anyone's questionably Good in Roy's family, it's Roy. :smallbiggrin:

The Miko thing was rude, true, but the episode with the bandits isn't evidence for his character any longer, as that was a moment of realisation for Roy and it changed him.

The bandit episode is certainly good evidence for what Roy WAS like, but (if I have understood the strip at all) it isn't good evidence for what he IS like now.

(Or would be, if he weren't dead...)

Mind you, why he was the way he was could easily be laid at Eugene's feet...

[skinkatlarge]

I am so, so sorry I even mentioned the word "alignment" in this thread. :smalltongue:

[Elfanatic]

And ashamed you should be, subjecting us to this torture. :smallwink:

[Fineous Orlon]

Roy needs to get the beam out of his own eye if we're going to say that. Just look at how it was with Miko. After the inn burning down thing, all he was doing was trying to get her angry. Heck, he even was willing to leave Elan behind with the bandits.

All I'm saying, if anyone's questionably Good in Roy's family, it's Roy. :smallbiggrin:

I feel the strip has had a great deal about Roy's growth as a character. Your examples are mired in the past, they are not who Roy was when he died, or who he is right now, if you will.

Roy is not questionably good. He was always basically good. As the story went on, he overcame some problems he had reconciling Good with how he wanted to act, or how he did/ would act.

Also, I think Roy was standing up to Miko [not trying to anger her] and realizing how poorly he had been treating his friends and allies in the following incident:
Just look at how it was with Miko. After the inn burning down thing, all he was doing was trying to get her angry. :

[mockingbyrd7]

Well, he did act lawfully: he waited until his wife and him were dead to play the field :P A Chaotic person wouldn't care about the vows.

I consider that a huge insult. I consider myself Chaotic Good, but when I get married someday I will stick with the woman I marry to the very end, through good and bad and through up and down, and I will never date or sleep with other women. This does not make me Lawful, it simply makes me Good, and an honest and caring person. Like Elan.

Nothing personal against you, by the way. :smalltongue:

[Charles Phipps]

I consider that a huge insult. I consider myself Chaotic Good, but when I get married someday I will stick with the woman I marry to the very end, through good and bad and through up and down, and I will never date or sleep with other women. This does not make me Lawful, it simply makes me Good, and an honest and caring person. Like Elan.

Nothing personal against you, by the way. :smalltongue:

Oh, I'm sure Elan wouldn't cheat on Haley. Of course, if he had her permission he'd be so deeply down on Roy's sister...