Tattooed Disciple

[celtois]

I'm preparing to start a campaign sometime in the next month or so and I've been wanting to add some rune-themed magic to my world.
For that purpose I've created a sub-class that covers themselves in runic tattoos infused with magic that they can upon to grant themselves additional abilities

I've tried to make a archetype that could slot into a number of different classes, my rule for if people can take it is:
If your class gains an archetype at 3rd level you may forgo gaining that archetype to gain the following archetype instead.

Tattooed Disciple

Words on Skin
At 3rd level you gain proficiency with calligrapher’s tools. You may also use this proficiency for producing tattoos.

Runes
As you gain levels as a Tattooed Disciple you will gain runes, these runes will allow you to cast spells. Your spell casting modifier for these spells is your Intelligence or Wisdom whichever is higher. For any spells that have a DC your DC is calculated as follows

Rune DC – 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier whichever is higher.

Runes of the Initiate
At 3rd level you gain the light, guidance, resistance and blade ward cantrips. The range of these cantrips changes to self, and the casting time is changed to 1 bonus action.

You also gain the ability to cast Absorb Elements, Enlarge/Reduce and Enhance Ability. The range of these spells changes to self, and the casting time is reduced to one bonus action. You may cast each of these spells once, after which you may not cast them again until you finish a short or long rest.

Runes of the Acolyte
At 7th level you gain the ability to cast Lesser Restoration, Haste and Alter Self. The range of each of these spells changes to self, and the casting time is reduced to once bonus action. You may cast each of these spells once, after which you may not cast them again until you finish a long rest.

Runes of the Disciple
At 11th level you gain the ability to cast Primordial Ward, Investiture of Flame, Investiture of Ice, Investiture of Stone and Investiture of Wind. The casting time changes to one bonus action. You can cast any one of these spells once, after which you will not be able to cast any of them again until you finish a long rest.

Runes of the Sage
At 15th level you gain the ability to cast Greater Restoration, Regenerate and True Seeing. The range of each these spells changes to self and the casting time changes to once bonus action. You may cast each of these spells once after which you may not cast them again until you finish a long rest.

Rune of the Enlightened
At 18th level you gain the ability to cast foresight. You cast this spell once, after which you cannot cast it again until you finish a long rest.

Sadly I don't have a ton of 5e experience so I'm looking for thoughts on balance.
Does it look too powerful? Not strong enough?

I realize I've essentially tacked a weaker version of a full caster onto whichever class takes this. I think the extremely small spell list might be enough to counter balance that, since I don't think I've given it the cream of the crop as far as spells are concerned. That and by making the cantrips bonus actions I've given them a bunch of utility they didn't have before but the intention was for those to sort of the the signature ability of the class.

[Composer99]

I'm preparing to start a campaign sometime in the next month or so and I've been wanting to add some rune-themed magic to my world.
For that purpose I've created a sub-class that covers themselves in runic tattoos infused with magic that they can upon to grant themselves additional abilities

I've tried to make a archetype that could slot into a number of different classes, my rule for if people can take it is:
If your class gains an archetype at 3rd level you may forgo gaining that archetype to gain the following archetype instead.

I'm not wholly convinced a pan-class archetype/subclass is entirely workable, simply because many of the classes with 3rd-level archetypes have archetype features at divergent levels, and in any case are so different anyways.

In fact, making it work this way could make bards super-powerful, since they get their archetypes at 3rd level, meaning they could use this archetype to get around typical spell slot limits.

5e doesn't have prestige classes as such, but it might be better, if you really want a pan-class archetype, to design it that way instead. Or you should move away from granting spellcasting.

Spell Slots: If you want to proceed with using this archetype as is, you probably need to specify that using the spells it grants doesn't cost spell slots. Otherwise, it interacts very poorly with paladin and ranger. That introduces the problem noted above for bards, of course.

So now that I'm digging into this archetype's features, it's hideously overpowered.

(1) Because all but one of the spells get bonus action casting times, you're giving classes that struggle to find uses for their bonus action something to do, and even classes that have ways to use their bonus actions will probably want to use them on a spell or two. Especially enlarge/reduce and haste.

(2) Too many spells, given too early and allowed to be cast way too often. It's noticeably over-the-top if a bard takes this archetype, because they then get a pile of free spellcasting on top of already being "full" casters, but it's not really any better for other "half" or "non"-caster classes, since they're now practically competing with "full" casters for spell slots each adventuring day, even if their spell selection isn't as versatile. That said, they're getting comparable numbers of spells known to sorcerers, so yeah.

All that's to say this archetype needs a complete reworking from the ground up. If you made it a "prestige class" that used, say, "half" casting (for the purpose of stacking with multiclassing casting) and maybe introduced a feature similar to Mystic Arcanum for one or two higher-level spells, that might be okay. But if you want it to be an archetype, you've got to dial it waaaaaaaaay back.

Another thing to note is that none of the features are "ribbons" (that is, flavourful utility features that help define the archetype without giving it more combat power). Every single feature gives the class a big power boost, even if some of the options within a feature aren't as powerful as others.


Tattooed Disciple

Words on Skin
At 3rd level you gain proficiency with calligrapher’s tools. You may also use this proficiency for producing tattoos.

Runes
As you gain levels as a Tattooed Disciple you will gain runes, these runes will allow you to cast spells. Your spell casting modifier for these spells is your Intelligence or Wisdom whichever is higher. For any spells that have a DC your DC is calculated as follows

Rune DC – 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier whichever is higher.

Runes of the Initiate
At 3rd level you gain the light, guidance, resistance and blade ward cantrips. The range of these cantrips changes to self, and the casting time is changed to 1 bonus action.

You also gain the ability to cast Absorb Elements, Enlarge/Reduce and Enhance Ability. The range of these spells changes to self, and the casting time is reduced to one bonus action. You may cast each of these spells once, after which you may not cast them again until you finish a short or long rest.

Most classes who can get this subclass have enough options for their bonus action that it's probably okay that they get to cast resistance and guidance as a bonus action. That said, when fighting monsters that use a lot of spells or other abilities requiring saving throws, spamming resistance could be more efficient than bonus action attacks.

The other spells? No, no way should you be giving them on a short rest at 3rd level. A 3rd-level "full caster" classes (bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard) get two 2nd-level spell slots per long rest at 3rd level. Classes with sorcery points or arcane recovery (or equivalent features) might be able to stretch that a bit, but that's it.

The typical adventuring day according to the DMG has two short rests in between long rests, so with that assumption in mind, this archetype gives you six castings of 2nd-level spells and three castings of a 1st-level spell per long rest, and it does so as a bonus action, meaning you can still get in your attack routine in, especially past 5th level when most classes get Extra Attack (6th level for valour bards).

It's not such a big deal at higher levels, but at 3rd level? It's too much. (Also, enlarge/reduce may not seem like much, but it adds up. Basically, three minutes per day you get 2.5 extra damage on every single weapon attack, effectively for free?)


Runes of the Acolyte
At 7th level you gain the ability to cast Lesser Restoration, Haste and Alter Self. The range of each of these spells changes to self, and the casting time is reduced to once bonus action. You may cast each of these spells once, after which you may not cast them again until you finish a long rest.

This gives everyone the same amount of 3rd-level spells per long rest as "full casters" at 7th level (three slots), and once again as a bonus action. It's probably not a problem for lesser restoration, but clever players could use alter self to great effect, and haste...? Just no. Sure, you can only cast these spells on yourself, but for most classes with archtypes that start at 3rd level, getting to cast haste on yourself as a bonus action would be amazing, and it stays that way through your entire adventuring career.


Runes of the Disciple
At 11th level you gain the ability to cast Primordial Ward, Investiture of Flame, Investiture of Ice, Investiture of Stone and Investiture of Wind. The casting time changes to one bonus action. You can cast any one of these spells once, after which you will not be able to cast any of them again until you finish a long rest.

Even if these aren't the best spells in the 6th-level spell toolbox, this feature is ridiculously overpowered.
(1) You can cast any one of these spells, meaning you can choose which spell to cast based on the circumstances of the adventuring day. That's an incredible degree of versatility.
(2) You're getting to cast 6th level spells at the same time that people who are ostensibly dedicated to learning how to use magic do - "caster" classes are just getting their 6th-level spell slots or Mystic Arcanum at 11th level.
(3) Bard gets 2 6th-level spell slots at 11th level (even if one of them is restricted to a specific list), no one else does until 19th level. Need I say more?
(4) Bonus action casting for free. Just no.


Runes of the Sage
At 15th level you gain the ability to cast Greater Restoration, Regenerate and True Seeing. The range of each these spells changes to self and the casting time changes to once bonus action. You may cast each of these spells once after which you may not cast them again until you finish a long rest.

So that's one extra free 5th, 6th and 7th level spell? :smalleek: And regenerate goes from being an "out of combat" utility spell to something you could conceivably use in combat if you really needed to? Just no.


Rune of the Enlightened
At 18th level you gain the ability to cast foresight. You cast this spell once, after which you cannot cast it again until you finish a long rest.

So you get the same 9th-level spellcasting as "full" casters, one level behind them. Foresight's a pretty awesome spell, too. And of course, bards get to completely break the spell slot restriction here. It's actually not the most overpowered feature in this archetype, because IMO everyone should be getting amazing features at 17th level and up, but getting that on top of everything else is just icing on the cake.

That said, if I were going to give a "non" or "half" caster class the ability to cast foresight, I would give them the ability to cast it as an action (or bonus action) and have it last no more than 10 minutes.


Sadly I don't have a ton of 5e experience so I'm looking for thoughts on balance.
Does it look too powerful? Not strong enough?

I realize I've essentially tacked a weaker version of a full caster onto whichever class takes this. I think the extremely small spell list might be enough to counter balance that, since I don't think I've given it the cream of the crop as far as spells are concerned. That and by making the cantrips bonus actions I've given them a bunch of utility they didn't have before but the intention was for those to sort of the the signature ability of the class.

I think I've summed up enough how this class stands above, but for the TL,DR summary:

Bonus action cantrips at 3rd level is fine. Everything else is just way too much.

[JNAProductions]

Eh.... Fighters don't have much need for Bonus Actions. And Bonus Action Blade Ward is pretty dang strong.

This is both not very well designed for 5E-subclasses are NOT compatible across classes-and far too strong.

[celtois]

So now that I'm digging into this archetype's features, it's hideously overpowered.

(1) Because all but one of the spells get bonus action casting times, you're giving classes that struggle to find uses for their bonus action something to do, and even classes that have ways to use their bonus actions will probably want to use them on a spell or two. Especially enlarge/reduce and haste.

(2) Too many spells, given too early and allowed to be cast way too often. It's noticeably over-the-top if a bard takes this archetype, because they then get a pile of free spellcasting on top of already being "full" casters, but it's not really any better for other "half" or "non"-caster classes, since they're now practically competing with "full" casters for spell slots each adventuring day, even if their spell selection isn't as versatile. That said, they're getting comparable numbers of spells known to sorcerers, so yeah.

Most classes who can get this subclass have enough options for their bonus action that it's probably okay that they get to cast resistance and guidance as a bonus action. That said, when fighting monsters that use a lot of spells or other abilities requiring saving throws, spamming resistance could be more efficient than bonus action attacks.

This is exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping for. I really like the idea of bonus action basting times for the cantrips and I sort of just carried it through for the rest of the spell. If dropping that significantly improves balance with minimal pain that seems like a good way to go.



Another thing to note is that none of the features are "ribbons" (that is, flavourful utility features that help define the archetype without giving it more combat power). Every single feature gives the class a big power boost, even if some of the options within a feature aren't as powerful as others.

Words on skin was intended to be the ribbon ability.




The other spells? No, no way should you be giving them on a short rest at 3rd level. A 3rd-level "full caster" classes (bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard) get two 2nd-level spell slots per long rest at 3rd level. Classes with sorcery points or arcane recovery (or equivalent features) might be able to stretch that a bit, but that's it.

The typical adventuring day according to the DMG has two short rests in between long rests, so with that assumption in mind, this archetype gives you six castings of 2nd-level spells and three castings of a 1st-level spell per long rest, and it does so as a bonus action, meaning you can still get in your attack routine in, especially past 5th level when most classes get Extra Attack (6th level for valour bards).

It's not such a big deal at higher levels, but at 3rd level? It's too much. (Also, enlarge/reduce may not seem like much, but it adds up. Basically, three minutes per day you get 2.5 extra damage on every single weapon attack, effectively for free?)

Enlarge/reduce was intended to give fighters/rogues/barbarians an option for a bit of a extra damage I thought in terms of overall damage it might be comparable to something like a fighter's maneuvers which give +1d8 damage 4 times per short rest. But I definitely don't think I thought enough about the duration :smallredface: Maybe drop all of those back to long rest.



Bonus action cantrips at 3rd level is fine. Everything else is just way too much.
Thanks for writing detailed feedback on everything. I'm a bit out of my element when it comes to 5e so I really appreciate the reality check :smallsmile:.
I'll revise it to hopefully be more appropriate based on your feedback and maybe restrict availability of it to Barb, Fighter, Monk to deal with the bard problem.

[JNAProductions]

Don't write it for multiple classes-or if you do, they each need their OWN subclass.

You cannot simply take one subclass and say it works for all these classes-not only do they get abilities at different levels, the actual POWER of subclasses varies widely. Some classes (say, Rogue) get a LOT from their class, and their subclasses not as much. Others (like Ranger) get a lot form subclasses, and not as much from classes.

[celtois]

I take your point about subclasses.
Here's the issue for me. Essentially the design space I want runic magic and psionic powers to fill in my game is as universal options that anyone can take.
My issue is I really din't want to make it a choice between ASIs and either of these sub systems. I can originally conceptualized them as feats with a lot less material in them.

The substitute archetype concept was what I ended up trying to use because it allowed people to pursue these subsystems without giving up ASIs and it allowed me to give more power to these subsystems (too much in this case). I'd be curious to see if you have any ideas about how to make it work. I'd rather not write a subsystem for each individual class.

I'm considering going back to feat idea, but maybe give everyone a starting feat so people can either choose to start with a psionic feat, a runic feat or one of the various standard feats? Is that likely my best route?

[Composer99]

You could probably actually go down the route of the Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster. Both of these use the same spellcasting progression as their core mechanic, and have a few thematic features thrown on over top.

If you wanted, you could have a "unified" runic power progression from 3-20 that barbarian, fighter, monk, and, say, rogue classes could build subclasses on top of, and add some minor features thematic to each class' own archetype - for instance, each class could have a different way of using runic powers; perhaps some runic powers unique to each class, that sort of thing.

Then you could have a feat (or a couple of feats) for more "dabbling" in the runic system and, if you wanted, a class devoted to a fuller exploration of runes.