I think classes should get a stat bonus

[CTurbo]

Instead of races getting all the stat bonuses, I think each class should come with it's own stat bonus too.

I was originally thinking that races should only get a single +2 bonus to one stat, and that could be combined with a static +2 bonus for each class.

So for example, a Goliath would get a +2 Str bonus only. A Wizard would get a +2 Int bonus. So a Goliath Wizard would get the +2 to Str and Int.
A Barbarian would get a +2 Str bonus. A Goliath Barbarian would get a single +4 Str bonus, but nothing else.

If that's not good enough, Maybe every race gets an option of +2 to their main stat OR +2 Con.

Or maybe each race gets a +1 to two relevant stats that combines with the +2 from each class. Goliath and Half-Orc would be +1 Str and Con, etc...

Yes I know that allows for a beginning stat of 18 or 19 so maybe that's an issue. I just hate how certain races get shoehorned into certain classes and this helps promote more uncommon race/class combos.

Thoughts?

[Waazraath]

Instead of races getting all the stat bonuses, I think each class should come with it's own stat bonus too.

I was originally thinking that races should only get a single +2 bonus to one stat, and that could be combined with a static +2 bonus for each class.

So for example, a Goliath would get a +2 Str bonus only. A Wizard would get a +2 Int bonus. So a Goliath Wizard would get the +2 to Str and Int.
A Barbarian would get a +2 Str bonus. A Goliath Barbarian would get a single +4 Str bonus, but nothing else.

If that's not good enough, Maybe every race gets an option of +2 to their main stat OR +2 Con.

Or maybe each race gets a +1 to two relevant stats that combines with the +2 from each class. Goliath and Half-Orc would be +1 Str and Con, etc...

Yes I know that allows for a beginning stat of 18 or 19 so maybe that's an issue. I just hate how certain races get shoehorned into certain classes and this helps promote more uncommon race/class combos.

Thoughts?

Well... brace yourself for a lame reaction:
- Yeah, you can do it without breaking anything
- but I don't think it's necessary;

To elaborate: starting with a +2 or +3 in your main stat works fine, so I don't se the shoehorned part. Even if you have bonusses given by both race and class, some combinations will be better than others; the 'right' race gives a +4 modifier, and an uncommon combination a +3. I hardly see the difference between +2 / +3. Further, I don't think it's a bad thing that some races are generally more suited for a certain role. And some unlogical combinations already have nice advantages, think about the mountain dwarf bard/sorcerer/wizard, in medium armor.

[Blood of Gaea]

The only real problem I see is that SAD classes get a buff. Wizards and Hexblades can start with 18-20 Int/Cha easily, for example.

[Unoriginal]

Giving two +2 at character creation is too much.

I don't like the idea of classes giving stat bonuses, but if you wish to do so, just remove the +1 from the subrace and give it to the class.

[Doorhandle]

Well... brace yourself for a lame reaction:
- Yeah, you can do it without breaking anything
- but I don't think it's necessary;

To elaborate: starting with a +2 or +3 in your main stat works fine, so I don't se the shoehorned part. Even if you have bonusses given by both race and class, some combinations will be better than others; the 'right' race gives a +4 modifier, and an uncommon combination a +3. I hardly see the difference between +2 / +3. Further, I don't think it's a bad thing that some races are generally more suited for a certain role. And some unlogical combinations already have nice advantages, think about the mountain dwarf bard/sorcerer/wizard, in medium armor.

Though it might help if the MAD classes were recognised as such and got a benefit to every relevant stat: and vice-versa for the SAD classes. It wouldn't cure their innate issues but it would make them more viable.
Also, you may have to limit it to 1st level only, No so much for the guy with 20 classes and absurd stats, but to make 1-level dips less relevant than they already are.

edit:I could see you relaxing that qualification for the first prestige class you pick up though: they're prestigious for a reason, after all.
Didn't realise it was a 5th edition thread at first. Are prestige classes even a thing in this edition?

The main issue I personally have with it is a bit of a chicken-or-egg problem: It makes more sense to me for someone to become a fighter because they're physically capable, as opposed to becoming physically capable because they're a fighter. But that's hardly the biggest abstraction within the rules.

[Unoriginal]

Yes I know that allows for a beginning stat of 18 or 19 so maybe that's an issue. I just hate how certain races get shoehorned into certain classes and this helps promote more uncommon race/class combos.

Thoughts?

"Stat from class" will do nothing to discourage that, and in fact will reinforce it.

Races aren't shoehorned into certain class by the game. You can do just great as a Dragonborn Rogue or a Tiefling Barbarian.

The ones who shoehorn the races into certain classes are people who absolutely want the highest bonus possible for their build rather than having spread stats.

So, with your homebrew, those people will just take the races and the classes that give the "best" combo and ignore the rest.

[Arkhios]

"Stat from class" will do nothing to discourage that, and in fact will reinforce it.

Races aren't shoehorned into certain class by the game. You can do just great as a Dragonborn Rogue or a Tiefling Barbarian.

The ones who shoehorn the races into certain classes are people who absolutely want the highest bonus possible for their build rather than having spread stats.

So, with your homebrew, those people will just take the races and the classes that give the "best" combo and ignore the rest.

Agreed. As harsh as it may sound, I think your (OP) idea is really bad, even though the intentions are clearly good. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't recommend using it, especially if you want to avoid shoehorning race/class combos.

[Citan]

Instead of races getting all the stat bonuses, I think each class should come with it's own stat bonus too.

I was originally thinking that races should only get a single +2 bonus to one stat, and that could be combined with a static +2 bonus for each class.

So for example, a Goliath would get a +2 Str bonus only. A Wizard would get a +2 Int bonus. So a Goliath Wizard would get the +2 to Str and Int.
A Barbarian would get a +2 Str bonus. A Goliath Barbarian would get a single +4 Str bonus, but nothing else.

If that's not good enough, Maybe every race gets an option of +2 to their main stat OR +2 Con.

Or maybe each race gets a +1 to two relevant stats that combines with the +2 from each class. Goliath and Half-Orc would be +1 Str and Con, etc...

Yes I know that allows for a beginning stat of 18 or 19 so maybe that's an issue. I just hate how certain races get shoehorned into certain classes and this helps promote more uncommon race/class combos.

Thoughts?
Hi!
I understand where you're coming from, but I dislike the idea because that would further motivate people to build characters in a specific way, whereas many classes can actually be efficient with different stat arrays.

For example, although Barbarian intuitively pairs with STR, DEX-oriented builds are a thing.
Fighters, Rangers, and to a certain extent Rogues and Monk are equally adequate with either stat.
Bards, Warlocks and Wizards may decide to push one stat above what's usual depending on their archetype choice.
A Bard, Wizard or even Cleric could decide to actually keep a lowish main stat to pursue another style of caster.

Thus, it would have impact on build variety, and as a small accessory could also complexify multiclass designs (because you would obviously get only the bonus of your first class right?).

[Appleheart]

I like the idea, but with a caveat.

Just like so many others have called out, +2 from race and +2 from class together is too strong. But I have never been a huge fan of the racial stats being so important, as it makes race choice a bit binary, especially for some classes. Moving the stat bonuses away from the race and adding it to the class instead would be cool for this, as it'd keep the power level the same, but open up more interesting class/race combinations.

[Unoriginal]

All the race/class combinations are already open.

[Spore]

I would dampen the magnitude a bit. Deduct +1 from your larger bonus (give variant humans just one +1 bonus that cannot go into the bonus you get from your class). E.g. a tiefling gets +1 charisma, +1 intelligence. Wizard gives +1 Int, Warlock would give +1 charisma.

But then you need a decision if you want to give the bonus for each dip or just on the first character level (like proficiencies).

[Aett_Thorn]

I would dampen the magnitude a bit. Deduct +1 from your larger bonus (give variant humans just one +1 bonus that cannot go into the bonus you get from your class). E.g. a tiefling gets +1 charisma, +1 intelligence. Wizard gives +1 Int, Warlock would give +1 charisma.

But then you need a decision if you want to give the bonus for each dip or just on the first character level (like proficiencies).

This is exactly how I would do it, too. Makes both main and sub-race matter, and doesn’t allow for +4 stat bonuses at first level.

And the class bonus should most certainly only be for the first class choice, otherwise multi-classing could lead to large stat increases.

[PeteNutButter]

I’ve considered just a simple point buy adjustment allowing you to point buy up 16, but only if your race gives no bonus in that stat. That way if you can be a dwarf with a 16 int, but you still have to pay for it. (2 or even 3 more points)

[Uzgul]

@OP: You can achieve what you want a lot easier. Give players a free +1 bonus to one score of their choice to a maximum of 17 after racial adjustments.

They can't start with an 18. Any race can start with a 16. And a +1 bonus won't break the balance.

[Spacehamster]

Think it were like that in the play test phase but were decided against.

[Arkhios]

Here's an alternative that just came to my mind. Probably not unique but still.

Races give no ability score improvements. Only classes do.

Classes grant a +2 to primary ability score and a +1 to secondary ability score relevant to each class (WIP: to be determined individually). For example, a paladin would grant +2 to Strength and +1 to Charisma (note: while paladin determines their magic with Charisma, they are still very much a melee class that uses weapons and heavy armor (both of which tend to require strength), and their magic is mostly supportive in nature; thus Charisma is secondary.)

When you multiclass (I guess this alternative might encourage multiclassing a bit more), you get +1 to one of the new class' primary or secondary ability scores (your choice).
I think standard multiclassing restrictions could remain as they are, but you might have to place an additional restriction to how many times you can multiclass. I'd say only once.

[youtellatale]

When you multiclass (I guess this alternative might encourage multiclassing a bit more), you get +1 to one of the new class' primary or secondary ability scores (your choice).
I think standard multiclassing restrictions could remain as they are, but you might have to place an additional restriction to how many times you can multiclass. I'd say only once.

I wouldn't give any bonus ability points when multiclassing. That's too much IMO.

[Arkhios]

I wouldn't give any bonus ability points when multiclassing. That's too much IMO.

Fair. I was on the fence with that one, but decided to suggest it anyway.

[Pex]

Giving the classes an ability bonus is good, but it may be necessary to get rid of the racial bonuses. While an 18 or 20 at 1st level is not an abomination and can already in exist in 5E right now with the rules as they are, what you'll end up with keeping both is even more race-class stereotypical combos. Every dragonborn is a paladin. Every wood elf is a druid or monk. Every hill dwarf is a cleric. Every tiefling is a warlock or bard. These trends already exist now, but this idea will increase it. If you do get rid of them, though, then everyone only gets a +2 somewhere which may not be desirable.

Despite that then you have to consider multiclassing. If you multiclass do you get the ability increase from both classes? If yes, what if it's the same stat? Do they stack? You might have to declare that you only get the ability score increase from your first class. Choosing your first class becomes more gamey then. Nothing wrong with enjoying game mechanics, but that does rub some people wrong. Will you keep the 13s requirement for multiclassing when the other class does not get a bump and perhaps no racial modifiers?

It's complicated. The idea isn't awful, but there are consequences. Think about why you really want to do this. What objective are you trying to achieve? What is it about the current status quo that is your true problem. It's not about a +1 or +2. Answer honestly to yourself. Then you know how to resolve all these questions, and it's possible these questions mean bupkis to you go full steam ahead on racial bonuses and class bonuses everyone do as you will.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Unfortunately races don't have balanced +stat points - humans get 6, with some races being as low as 2. If they did I'd prefer completely free-floating bonuses to be assigned as the player wished to further open character concepts.

[Amdy_vill]

this would not break the game it is just something you could do to change how the game plays

[Unoriginal]

I would rather say it's something that can be done, but won't have the result OP wants.

[Eric Diaz]

Instead of races getting all the stat bonuses, I think each class should come with it's own stat bonus too.

I was originally thinking that races should only get a single +2 bonus to one stat, and that could be combined with a static +2 bonus for each class.

So for example, a Goliath would get a +2 Str bonus only. A Wizard would get a +2 Int bonus. So a Goliath Wizard would get the +2 to Str and Int.
A Barbarian would get a +2 Str bonus. A Goliath Barbarian would get a single +4 Str bonus, but nothing else.

If that's not good enough, Maybe every race gets an option of +2 to their main stat OR +2 Con.

Or maybe each race gets a +1 to two relevant stats that combines with the +2 from each class. Goliath and Half-Orc would be +1 Str and Con, etc...

Yes I know that allows for a beginning stat of 18 or 19 so maybe that's an issue. I just hate how certain races get shoehorned into certain classes and this helps promote more uncommon race/class combos.

Thoughts?

Why not leave than as as OPTION? So you don't really have to change anything in the game.

Goliath wizard? Gets to choose between +2 to Str OR +2 to Int.

Goliath Barbarian? A +4 Str bonus is too much, he just gets +2 Str and is already a decent barbarian - in this case, nothing is changed, because the race ALREADY suits the class.

EDIT: alternatively, to disallow huge bonuses, just say barbarians get +2 Str... but if you ALREADY have +2 Str, you get +1 Constitution instead... Or something.

[SociopathFriend]

You get stat bonuses based on race because you can't choose your race but you can choose your class.

You for example had no choice but to be born human. As such your mental and physical stats are within human guidelines.
Now imagine you were born an ape. You lose some and gain some. You might naturally gain more strength than a human would but your finer joint control will not be as good so you'll have less dexterity. It's simply how your body is built.

Now, despite this, your ape might decide it wants to be an acrobat; they train day and night and results occur- their dexterity rises.

Ask yourself this- are you strong because you're a Fighter or are you a Fighter because you're strong?

[bobofwestgate]

Just wait for Pathfinder 2nd edition to come out. You'll get stat increases from your race(or whatever they are calling it now), your class, and though they haven't said so, I would put money on some stat increases tied into background as well.

[Sigreid]

Was just thinking of you wanted to do something along these lines you could have the players roll stats in order and add racial bonuses. Then the first task taken would have a minimum of 16 for one stat and 14 for another, direct replacement if lower and unchanged if higher. So, for example, a fighter would have a minimum 16 str and 14 con.

This would get the variation of rolling, let you keep the racial strengths, and still be assured you will have solid stats in the class you want to play, regardless of race choice or luck on the dice.

[2D8HP]

Instead of races getting all the stat bonuses, I think each class should come with it's own stat bonus too[....]

[....]Thoughts?


What for?

5e PC's are already extremely powerful and tough at first level, so I just don't see the point in adding to that.

First level 5e is such a great game already that I'd hesitate to rock the boat.

[CTurbo]

I don't think that getting +4 points on bonuses at level 1 are OP considering the Mountain Dwarf, Half-Elf, and Human already get that or better.

Good point about the SAD classes benefiting the most from this change though. Being able to start with 18 or 19 is probably too much.

So maybe classes get a single +1 bonus, races get a standard +1 bonus, and subraces get their own +1 bonus. This will allow for either a +2 and +1 or three +1s to start.

The whole point was to promote uncommon class/race combinations and I believe that this would do it.

[2D8HP]

[..]The whole point was to promote uncommon class/race combinations and I believe that this would do it.


Slap on the goodies that Half-Elves and Wood Elves get on anything else and I'd gladly play it.

[Sception]

So maybe classes get a single +1 bonus, races get a standard +1 bonus, and subraces get their own +1 bonus. This will allow for either a +2 and +1 or three +1s to start.

This would probably work out fine. I'd give each class a choice of 2 or 3 different stats to put their +1 in, though, in case for some reason a +1 to the primary stat wouldn't really help that character.

For instance, +1 strength would be best for most paladins, but dex based paladins are possible in the core rules and giving all palaidns +1 strength would actually serve to discourage building them that way, and would in turn discourage elf paladins and other dexy race paladins along the way.

Giving paladins a choice of +1 strength or +1 charisma would keep the thematic link while being a bit more versatile.

I'd give a choice of +1 in any of the class's multiclass stat requirements and/or save proficient stats. So fighters would be +1 to their choice of str, dex, or con; wizards would be +1 int or wis; paladins +1 str or cha, etc.

[Blood of Gaea]

Another possible alternative, Races give a +1 bonus, and Backgrounds give a +2.

[Asmotherion]

I'd rather see it as a Backround Feature. Adjusted to the backround.

I'd rather see races that are as class neutral as possible, and tie more things to your Backround. Like, make an Orc Wizard, and the reason most NPC orcs are not Wizards is their backround (not being scholars generally or having ideals that promote one to become that) instead of their race.

[Laserlight]

Race gives a +1, Class gives two +1s.

[CTurbo]

This would probably work out fine. I'd give each class a choice of 2 or 3 different stats to put their +1 in, though, in case for some reason a +1 to the primary stat wouldn't really help that character.

For instance, +1 strength would be best for most paladins, but dex based paladins are possible in the core rules and giving all palaidns +1 strength would actually serve to discourage building them that way, and would in turn discourage elf paladins and other dexy race paladins along the way.

Giving paladins a choice of +1 strength or +1 charisma would keep the thematic link while being a bit more versatile.

I'd give a choice of +1 in any of the class's multiclass stat requirements and/or save proficient stats. So fighters would be +1 to their choice of str, dex, or con; wizards would be +1 int or wis; paladins +1 str or cha, etc.



I agree with having a choice for the class +1. Having a choice is always a good thing. And you can tack on Con as an option for the SAD classes than only require one stat.

[Laserlight]

What I'd actually rather have is a stat bonus for class, and a stat cap per race, because the strongest gnome fighter just isn't going to be as strong as the strongest goliath fighter.

(I'm aware that the chance of that ever being anything but homebrew = 0.000...repeating of course).

[Pex]

Another possible alternative, Races give a +1 bonus, and Backgrounds give a +2.


I'd rather see it as a Backround Feature. Adjusted to the backround.

I'd rather see races that are as class neutral as possible, and tie more things to your Backround. Like, make an Orc Wizard, and the reason most NPC orcs are not Wizards is their backround (not being scholars generally or having ideals that promote one to become that) instead of their race.

Interesting idea, but I think it would switch the stereotype problem to the background and make some class/background combos not happen. If you give Acolyte Wisdom +2 because of cleric, where does that leave the paladin who doesn't need Wis so much? If you make it +2 WI or +2 CH that still discourages the religious wizard or rogue.

Having the classes give the ability boost I think is the right call.

[Blood of Gaea]

Interesting idea, but I think it would switch the stereotype problem to the background and make some class/background combos not happen. If you give Acolyte Wisdom +2 because of cleric, where does that leave the paladin who doesn't need Wis so much? If you make it +2 WI or +2 CH that still discourages the religious wizard or rogue.

Having the classes give the ability boost I think is the right call.
That's the thing though, Backgrounds are meant to be customizable by default. You could easily be an Acolyte with +2 Int if you kept track of the scrolls, or +2 Str if you spend your time doing manual labor for your temple.

[Garfunion]

I the Devs thought about putting the stat on the class but decided against it. If I remember correctly.

[Pelle]

I don't really see the point; it's kinda redundant when you are allowed to choose which stat score (rolled or whatnot) are assigned where. If playing a Wizard, you already put your highest score in Int. No need for the class to give additional boost. Just give more points for Point Buy or roll using a different method or whatever.

Giving stat bonuses to race is to ensure the classic stereotypes, all elves are above average agile, orcs are strong etc. The stereotypes for classes are already covered by their dependent stats, ensuring people play high Str Barbarians. I could see giving it to backgrounds, but I don't see the need for stereotyping certain backgrounds to certain classes, like it is for races now.

[Pex]

That's the thing though, Backgrounds are meant to be customizable by default. You could easily be an Acolyte with +2 Int if you kept track of the scrolls, or +2 Str if you spend your time doing manual labor for your temple.

At that point what you're really doing is giving everyone a floating +2 to put somewhere, separate from race, class, and background choice.

[Mikal]

They already do. It's called an ASI. That's why certain classes get more of them than others.

[Arkhios]

They already do. It's called an ASI. That's why certain classes get more of them than others.

This is a very good point. I believe it's at least partially because most of us have history with the previous editions, that we just sort of assume that ability scores can be increased at certain levels, and we subconsciously ignore that those are actually class features, not "universal character features" per se.