So You've Turned Into A Werewolf... (looking for feedback)

[Finback]

So, in CoS, we were attacked by wolves, and my var-human vengadin 5/warlock 1 was bitten. Fortunately, everytime he seemed to feel a bit "ill", his Con rolls stopped anything bad from happening (which we ascribed to "well, clearly, I wasn't bitten".

And now three days later, after one hell of a fight with Strahd, I've turned. However, because I was successful in staving off the changes before this, and during that time, I didn't kill, my DM is looking to allow me the option of having some control over my new beast-mode. The question is - what's the best way to make it *fair*? Has anyone run this for their players before?

My idea is such:
1. When wolfed out, I uncontrollably shed some of my armour (plate), giving me a reduced AC (maybe on par with medium armour - maybe AC 14/15?) from my normal 20. (plate/shield)
2. I can still use handheld weapons, but make attacks with disadvantage (encouraging use of claws/bite).
3. I can no longer make any sort of Wis/Cha/Int checks, with the exception of Survival, and Intimidation. No buffs, just keep using those particular checks/bonuses I already had.
4. Not sure if I would get the Dex bonus - my Str was already fairly high, my Con is decent, but I'm wondering if getting a Dex bonus while wolfed out would be a bit unfair.
5. REALLY not sure how to factor in spellcasting. As a vengadin, one could argue spells that make me more fearsome (eg Bane, Command) would seem perfectly fine but again, given Barbarians can't spellcast when raging, it would seem a little unbalanced if I could too. Which kind of sucks, because I'm also going down the Celestial path, and I rather like the idea of being this holy avenger, a creature of the night becoming an agent of the light*.
6. Triggers. Clearly, a full moon would, as would maybe a bloody battle - perhaps a cumulative percentile roll for each enemy I dispatch in combat increasing towards wolvery. Similarly, I did see an excellent article somewhere online a while ago (which of course, I now cannot find) suggesting modifiers for dice rolls about triggers - eg a threat to you gives it a +1, a threat towards someone who you are close to would be a +2, a child or entity under your sworn protection would be a +3, etc.

I'd love to know if people have any thoughts or experiences. As I say, my DM was the one to suggest it (and I'd been thinking it privately) so he is amenable to finding something that works - but I also want it to be fair to my co-players as I don't want to become this scene-stealer.

addendum - hadn't even considered anything other than the hybrid form. I guess if we use the wild shape rule, then the penalty for having lycanthropy would be the reduction in my HP to that of the wolf (kind of sucky when I'm the party tank, but again, willing to make concessions).

* Cap-Wolf, anyone?

[Unoriginal]

The only fair option is to find someone who can remove the curse entirely.

[Finback]

We did find a scroll of remove curse, as well as having enough pooled diamond dust we could do a second one, but we're rather pledged to use at least one of them to save Stella the Cat-Girl, and my paladin is the sort of self-sacrificing jerk to put others' needs for a curse removal above his own, especially if he feels he can keep it under control. He's a very regimented, stoic sort. This is more to figure what to do until such time as we DO have a way to remove the curse, so as to allow me to keep playing in the meantime. Our DM doesn't want me to lose any of my agency as a player; we've previously had a rogue contract vampirism, and it made for a really interesting twist as we had to choose between saving him and sacrificing an innocent (who was accused of murder but claimed he could prove otherwise), or trying to control him until such time as we could cure him (which had a deadline, as we had three days to decide or Rictavio was going to kill the rogue himself).*


*plot twist - manacling the gnome rogue to the paladin makes for an interesting combat dynamic ;)

[Unoriginal]

Then find big chains and make sure you can't escape while you're transformed, until the moment you can get rid of it.

The werewolf curse is nothing desirable.

[Rogerdodger557]

If you can, look at the rules for Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter Order of the Lycan. Probably only the shifting/hybrid aspect of it. Just make sure you ask your DM before using it, if that's what you end up doing.

[Angelalex242]

Realistically, werewolf powers are probably a downgrade from any PC clsss.

If you really want to keep them, I suppose you could get a homebrew feat that lets you use werewolf powers as a pure advantage.

[A Fat Dragon]

just have the strength bonus, resistance to nonmagical Weapons (Or if your DM is very nice, immunity), innate attacks, and then the two transformations. In addition, have it so you’ll have to make wisdom saves (DC of DM’s choice) whenever you’re below half Health in combat, and if you fail, you turn hybrid, and DM controls your actions until combat ends.

[MagneticKitty]

Balance wise I'd follow wildshape rules and do dire wolf as what you get. You can use abilities only if the wolf could. No spells, you keep mental stats. Natural wolf ac only. It's still a sack of hp you didn't have before.

Or add a level of barb next level and treat your transformation as a rage (resistance to nonmagical but no spell casting, maybe throw on perception proficiency.) As for the armor use unarmored defense from Barb in this form and say your armor is absorbed into your form

[Blacky the Blackball]

We did find a scroll of remove curse, as well as having enough pooled diamond dust we could do a second one, but we're rather pledged to use at least one of them to save Stella the Cat-Girl, and my paladin is the sort of self-sacrificing jerk to put others' needs for a curse removal above his own, especially if he feels he can keep it under control.

Having the lycanthropy removed is putting the needs of others above your own.

You're putting other people's need to be safe from being bitten by werewolf-you above your own need to get snacky werewolf powers.

[Estrillian]

I have one player who has gone through the Werewolf transformation, and we've tried a few different variations.

To start with she was the "unwilling werewolf" from the MM, looking for a cure. She did a full transform if she fell to 0 HP, but was run by the GM.

Eventually she chose to turn into a Werewolf deliberately (so no cure for this point), but was not in control. During this time she killed a bystander. By MM rules she should have become an NPC at this point (or at the very least evil), but that didn't work for us, so we kept the involuntary change at 0HP but wrote off the cure, so it became a search to control the curse instead.

After a good interval she managed to seek out an Uthgart from the wolf tribe, who are all voluntary werewolves able to control their changes. She went through a spiritual journey and other tests, before mastering the same.

So now we have decided that she can change at will into wolf or hybrid, gaining the keen senses and claw attacks, and resistance (not immunity) to physical attacks, but losing her armour, equipment, and spellcasting in the process. I think she is looking to use it most often for scouting (and also as an excuse for cute puppy noises, but who am I to judge).

[Amdy_vill]

So, in CoS, we were attacked by wolves, and my var-human vengadin 5/warlock 1 was bitten. Fortunately, everytime he seemed to feel a bit "ill", his Con rolls stopped anything bad from happening (which we ascribed to "well, clearly, I wasn't bitten".

And now three days later, after one hell of a fight with Strahd, I've turned. However, because I was successful in staving off the changes before this, and during that time, I didn't kill, my DM is looking to allow me the option of having some control over my new beast-mode. The question is - what's the best way to make it *fair*? Has anyone run this for their players before?

My idea is such:
1. When wolfed out, I uncontrollably shed some of my armour (plate), giving me a reduced AC (maybe on par with medium armour - maybe AC 14/15?) from my normal 20. (plate/shield)
2. I can still use handheld weapons, but make attacks with disadvantage (encouraging use of claws/bite).
3. I can no longer make any sort of Wis/Cha/Int checks, with the exception of Survival, and Intimidation. No buffs, just keep using those particular checks/bonuses I already had.
4. Not sure if I would get the Dex bonus - my Str was already fairly high, my Con is decent, but I'm wondering if getting a Dex bonus while wolfed out would be a bit unfair.
5. REALLY not sure how to factor in spellcasting. As a vengadin, one could argue spells that make me more fearsome (eg Bane, Command) would seem perfectly fine but again, given Barbarians can't spellcast when raging, it would seem a little unbalanced if I could too. Which kind of sucks, because I'm also going down the Celestial path, and I rather like the idea of being this holy avenger, a creature of the night becoming an agent of the light*.
6. Triggers. Clearly, a full moon would, as would maybe a bloody battle - perhaps a cumulative percentile roll for each enemy I dispatch in combat increasing towards wolvery. Similarly, I did see an excellent article somewhere online a while ago (which of course, I now cannot find) suggesting modifiers for dice rolls about triggers - eg a threat to you gives it a +1, a threat towards someone who you are close to would be a +2, a child or entity under your sworn protection would be a +3, etc.

I'd love to know if people have any thoughts or experiences. As I say, my DM was the one to suggest it (and I'd been thinking it privately) so he is amenable to finding something that works - but I also want it to be fair to my co-players as I don't want to become this scene-stealer.

addendum - hadn't even considered anything other than the hybrid form. I guess if we use the wild shape rule, then the penalty for having lycanthropy would be the reduction in my HP to that of the wolf (kind of sucky when I'm the party tank, but again, willing to make concessions).

* Cap-Wolf, anyone?

really beside the lich the other creatures you can become in the game are not that broken so long as you dm gives the other players a small buff or takes a level from you.

[Amdy_vill]

Realistically, werewolf powers are probably a downgrade from any PC clsss.

If you really want to keep them, I suppose you could get a homebrew feat that lets you use werewolf powers as a pure advantage.

he is at a low level so right now it is a boon. but i am level or two it will be much weaker

[Finback]

Having the lycanthropy removed is putting the needs of others above your own.

You're putting other people's need to be safe from being bitten by werewolf-you above your own need to get snacky werewolf powers.

Except this is the sort of thing my character does; he's a very self-effacing sort, and has a pretty good degree of self-control. He would feel he can keep it under control until such time as he knows he can't, when he would surrender his agency to the others in the party. My DM is the one who offered me the option to have agency as a werewolf, so I'm trying to find something to make *his* life easier, whilst also allowing for character growth and development. The idea of the cursed hero who fights their curse, or tries to subvert into a force for good is entirely valid and historical, and I'd like to work with that - hence trying to find ways to water it down so the "powers" side is less one-sided. I have zero issues with stuff like having any weapons harm me instead of only silver/magical, or losing my proficiencies, reduction in HP/AC, limitations on my skills and abilities. This isn't about me trying to turn my player into some sort of unkillable supersoldier because I wanted to or "need to" (in your own words), but my DM choosing to advance the storyline in this manner, and I want to be able to continue enjoying my character without feeling it's broken.

We also had a player get vamped, and he maintained his agency - he had a bloodlust, and we all worked to keep him in check, but he was still allow the opportunity to fight against the curse and to have his agency to try to be heroic - that's all I'm also striving for. If my character was the sort who I know had a weak will or couldn't fight it (or maybe a situation occurs where he can't fight it - maybe he's weakened by poison, or Strahd mentally dominates him), I have zero issues with my DM taking the character and turning him onto the others. But that's *not* what is happening right now - the DM has acknowledged my character fought off all the prior urges to change, even against his own body, and wants to build on that *plot point*.

[Angelalex242]

Well, vampire is different.

If you're somehow playing a good aligned vampire to begin with...well, there's plenty of fiction on how that works. Angel and Spike come to mind, among several others.

[Finback]

Balance wise I'd follow wildshape rules and do dire wolf as what you get. You can use abilities only if the wolf could. No spells, you keep mental stats. Natural wolf ac only. It's still a sack of hp you didn't have before.

This might work in terms of not having any control over the transformation, but allowing me to maintain agency, as a druid would. It sacrifices my use of weapons, proficiencies, etc.


Or add a level of barb next level and treat your transformation as a rage (resistance to nonmagical but no spell casting, maybe throw on perception proficiency.) As for the armor use unarmored defense from Barb in this form and say your armor is absorbed into your form

This one I feel less enthused about, as it means steering off my class pathway I've been working on; plus, if my curse *was* lifted somehow after I had taken a level in it, it no longer becomes something I can use, meaning I've lost a level of character development.

[Finback]

Well, vampire is different.

If you're somehow playing a good aligned vampire to begin with...well, there's plenty of fiction on how that works. Angel and Spike come to mind, among several others.

Which conversely means Oz, who eventually learnt to maintain control of his transformations. There's also Remus Lupin (admittedly, afraid of his curse), Sgt Angua of the Discworld, Warren Griffin of the Howling Commandoes, Jack Russell, John Jameson, Bigby Wolf, Irish werewolves are said to be protectors of children and the innocent; and whilst not wolves per se, Beorn and the beornlings of LotR also fulfill that archetype.

[JackPhoenix]

Which conversely means Oz, who eventually learnt to maintain control of his transformations. There's also Remus Lupin (admittedly, afraid of his curse), Sgt Angua of the Discworld, Warren Griffin of the Howling Commandoes, Jack Russell, John Jameson, Bigby Wolf, Irish werewolves are said to be protectors of children and the innocent; and whilst not wolves per se, Beorn and the beornlings of LotR also fulfill that archetype.

Neither of which are D&D werewolves, so anything related to them don't apply here. In D&D, only way to "control" the curse is to embrace the change it brings and change your alignment to that of the beast. It is also pretty easy to cure (unless you're born lycanthrope), unlike the listed examples, where it's permanent. Best Lupin could do was to take potions and do all he could to control it, and it didn't work in the end. Discword werewolves are distinct species, not a curse. It's not clear what exactly Beorn was, but he definitely wasn't classic lycanthrope... he sounds more like inspiration for D&D druids. I'm not familiar with the others.

I'm of the belief that if you want to play a monster, you should play a monster with all it entails (which may include "you're no longer PC material, create new character), not "I can't believe it's not [monster]!" that doesn't behave or work as every other monster of the same type you encounter in the game does, just so your special snowflake character stays balanced with the other PCs.

[MagneticKitty]

This might work in terms of not having any control over the transformation, but allowing me to maintain agency, as a druid would. It sacrifices my use of weapons, proficiencies, etc.



This one I feel less enthused about, as it means steering off my class pathway I've been working on; plus, if my curse *was* lifted somehow after I had taken a level in it, it no longer becomes something I can use, meaning I've lost a level of character development.

Quit trying to min max a curse. It's supposed to be a double edged sword with a drawback. Lol

[Finback]

Quit trying to min max a curse. It's supposed to be a double edged sword with a drawback. Lol


maybe you didn't read my original post, where I am trying to find ways to balance it, rather than min max it? You know, the part where I talked about getting disadvantages on my attacks, having my AC reduced. I've already explained this is something my DM IS ALLOWING, and I am working with him to MAKE it work. That's what this thread is meant to be. Not "you can't do it" but "this is a way you could do this thing, which is going to happen, but in a manner that is fair to the DM and the other players". We're not talking about "dragons can't hybridise", this is "IF a blue and a red dragon mated, what would happen".

Also, a double edged sword is just more efficient in combat, it means you can hit your opponent on either a forward of backward swing. I've never understood the logic of using it as an example of something that is dangerous to the user.