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John_D
2007-09-04, 05:30 AM
Hey guys, I'm designing my very first cleric for use in a friend's campaign and I need some ideas / advice on designing him. We're starting at 1st level but I want to get as much of a 20-level build planned out as possible before I start. Here's what I've got so far:

Aleister
LN half-orc cleric of Boccob
Domains: Knowledge, Trickery

I'm planning on going for cleric for the first five levels, Divine Oracle (Complete Divine p.34) for the next ten (or fewer, if the DO PrC isn't worth carrying through to its end) and then back to cleric.

The things I don't have planned are feat choices and how to assign attributes (which have not been rolled yet). I also have a few other queries that veteran cleric players may be able to answer for me.

Concerning attributes, the one thing that I really want is an intelligence of 10+ after racial mods (the higher the better). Aleister is a well-read, thoughtful character, and even though int is the typical cleric dump stat I don't want to discard it in this case. I have no problems with letting charisma slide, though; obviously he won't be able to turn worth crap but I'm not overly bothered about that in any case.

The other stat that's giving me pause for thought is dexterity. It's another traditional dump stat for the cleric, but given some of the class skills of Divine Oracle (trap sense, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge), would high dex be a good idea? Is kitting a cleric out in anything less than heavy armour a dumb idea? (Having read the relevant entries in more detail I'm thinking that it is, but I'd like to get some feedback going.)

As far as feats go, Aleister will need to take Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion]) at first or third level to qualify for Divine Oracle as early as possible. The rest are entirely up in the air right now. I don't know if there are any feat trees which are must-haves for the cleric?

In addition, does anyone have some good general tips for playing a cleric?

For reference, the books I have available are Complete Adventurer / Arcane / Divine / Warrior, the XPH, Stormwrack and Cityscape.

(I'll also post Al's backstory up later for anyone that wants it.)

kpenguin
2007-09-04, 05:53 AM
Why don't you try having a cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)?

Red Machine D
2007-09-04, 05:58 AM
Well, first off you'll want to think about making strength your dump stat instead of int. A lot of non-combat clerics have no use for strength, and a divine oracle of Boccob should have no use with close-quarters fighting.

Secondly, if you're going to put a high score into dex to get along with uncanny dodge and touch AC, you may as well take Reach Spell. Turning your touch spells (namely cure * wounds) into rays will require a better dex. Also, clerics need not wear heavy armor just because they can use it.

Third, after the full spread of divine oracle, what good is going back into cleric? You already said you weren't gonna turn worth crap, so why bother? Try going into another divine casting PrC with full caster progression? Contemplative, Sacred Exorcist, Hierophant are always nice.

edit1: As far as feats, Augment Healing is the first thing I think of when I think cleric build. Also, think Sacred Healing if you have turn attempts you never use.

edit2: You may want to change your domain from Trickery to Oracle (from Spell Compendium). Also, if you take the previous advice to change your race (which I agree with; no point in a half-orc unless you're gonna be a fighter-type), I'd recommend gnome. Small size, +2 con, and fits in well with the character concept.

Hario
2007-09-04, 05:59 AM
you don't really need to qualify for divine oracle asap, there are better PrCs, like Church inquisitor, which has laughable prereqs. You can get into Church inquisitor by level 3. Also half-orc may be for flavor, but turn undead is a nifty skill, and skill points are nice, I wouldn't go for half orc unless you have a pure melee character. Human or Dwarf are the best clerics. If you go church inquisitor you get the inquisition domain, then later when you go for Divine Oracle, you get a 4th domain. Having more domains does always help even if you can only choose 1 spell out of 4 each spell level.

Playing a cleric is easy, because its one of the best classes in the game. You can get into melee, do equal if not better damage than the Paladin or Fighter (depending on build). Do not try to get yourself into Divine metamagic (persistent spell) cheese, that only makes the DM and players want to hurt you.

John_D
2007-09-04, 06:16 AM
Why don't you try having a cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)?

Ooh, interesting. The Cloistered Cleric fits a lot of my character concept very well, so I think I'll approach the DM on that one and see what he thinks. Thanks for the tip.


Well, first off you'll want to think about making strength your dump stat instead of int. A lot of non-combat clerics have no use for strength, and a divine oracle of Boccob should have no use with close-quarters fighting.

Secondly, if you're going to put a high score into dex to get along with uncanny dodge and touch AC, you may as well take Reach Spell. Turning your touch spells (namely cure * wounds) into rays will require a better dex. Also, clerics need not wear heavy armor just because they can use it.

Third, after the full spread of divine oracle, what good is going back into cleric? You already said you weren't gonna turn worth crap, so why bother? Try going into another divine casting PrC with full caster progression? Contemplative, Sacred Exorcist, Hierophant are always nice.

Your first two suggestions are really really good, and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of the possible applications of a dex-heavy cleric in the first place. Thanks!

Your point about the return to cleric is another good one; I mainly went for it because Divine Oracle was the only PrC that stood out to me as being suitable for Al. I'll have another look at the ones you suggested and see what looks nice. I'm still keen on DO though, as being a divination expert is central to the character.


you don't really need to qualify for divine oracle asap, there are better PrCs, like Church inquisitor, which has laughable prereqs. You can get into Church inquisitor by level 3. Also half-orc may be for flavor, but turn undead is a nifty skill, and skill points are nice, I wouldn't go for half orc unless you have a pure melee character. Human or Dwarf are the best clerics. If you go church inquisitor you get the inquisition domain, then later when you go for Divine Oracle, you get a 4th domain. Having more domains does always help even if you can only choose 1 spell out of 4 each spell level.

Playing a cleric is easy, because its one of the best classes in the game. You can get into melee, do equal if not better damage than the Paladin or Fighter (depending on build). Do not try to get yourself into Divine metamagic (persistent spell) cheese, that only makes the DM and players want to hurt you.

Sadly Church Inquisitor is closed to me: you have to be a member of an LG church and discover corruption within it. Boccob is neutral, and I doubt Aleister would be at home in a church of Pelor or Heironeous.

Half-orc is indeed for flavour, and Al carries a lot of baggage resulting from the shame he associates with his orc heritage. I realise that I'm making some sub-optimal choices in the name of character, but if I wanted to go optimal I'd be a human cleric 10 / RSoP 10. :)

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

warmachine
2007-09-04, 06:23 AM
I have to question your choice of race for those class features. A cleric of knowledge and trickery with negative, racial modifiers for INT and CHA? A racial STR bonus for a non-combat oriented cleric? Now, I believe in build choices following the character concept but a half-orc being a book worm is a hard sell. Gnome or human are the most plausible races.

Go Cloistered Cleric and Wizard then Mystic Theurge. Less powerful than straight cleric but more fun to play. Stat order becomes WIS, INT, DEX, CON, CHA, STR.

warmachine
2007-09-04, 06:33 AM
Half-orc is indeed for flavour, and Al carries a lot of baggage resulting from the shame he associates with his orc heritage. I realise that I'm making some sub-optimal choices in the name of character, but if I wanted to go optimal I'd be a human cleric 10 / RSoP 10. :)

A half-orc shamed by his orc heritage and going cleric is more likely to follow Hieroneous. The church philosophy still advocates violence but much more tempered and directed.

John_D
2007-09-04, 06:37 AM
Sadly, "half-orc as bookworm" is more or less my character concept in a nutshell. My inital idea was "any typically large and tough race as bookworm", and if we hadn't been starting at first level I probably would've tried to convince the DM to let me go with half-giant (which would naturally gravitate to melee cleric instead of ranged).

I've heard both good and bad things about the mystic theurge. Being what is effectively for spell-casting purposes a cleric 15 / wizard 15 at 20th level is tempting though...

edit: That definition would essentially involve Aleister using his orcish tendencies to good effect. Instead, he wants to ignore them altogether, and as a result is fairly quiet, well-spoken and slow to anger.

The Glyphstone
2007-09-04, 07:10 AM
I've heard both good and bad things about the mystic theurge. Being what is effectively for spell-casting purposes a cleric 15 / wizard 15 at 20th level is tempting though...

IT'S A TRAP! (http://www.itsatrap.net/)

Seriously. At 20th level, Mystic Theurge is not Uber, but quite versatile and powerful - 9th level spells aren't essential for games unless you're in a PvP arena. On the flip side, being absurdly underpowered until you get to 20th level or so is not fun at all...at 9th level, when your wizard or cleric buddy has 6th level spells like Disintegrate, True Seeing, or Heal, you're still stuck with 4rd level Polymorph, Shout, and Cure Critical Wounds.

Darrin
2007-09-04, 07:27 AM
Sadly, "half-orc as bookworm" is more or less my character concept in a nutshell. My inital idea was "any typically large and tough race as bookworm", and if we hadn't been starting at first level I probably would've tried to convince the DM to let me go with half-giant (which would naturally gravitate to melee cleric instead of ranged).


Consider a subrace, such as a Desert Half-Orc: +2 Con, -2 Int, Low-Light instead of Darkvision, gains the Run feat (huh?... but some potential humor there if bookworm = coward). No Str bonus, which you don't need, and no Cha penalty, which makes him a bit more sociable, maybe enough to put some ranks in Diplomacy... if only for yuks. ("Wait... the half-orc wants to *negotiate*?!?")

I'm usually a big fan of 0-level racial templates (Dragon #306) but unfortunately not much help there. While adding the Deep template (+2 Int, -2 Str) would even out the Int penatly, the +1 LA probably isn't worth it.

Something else to consider... you could take a level of Half-Orc Paragon, and then three levels of Human Paragon. You'd lose two caster levels, which is generally a no-no, but you could also take them whenever you like, such as after you finish off Contemplative. But you'd get adaptive learning, a bonus feat, and a +2 ability boost.



I've heard both good and bad things about the mystic theurge. Being what is effectively for spell-casting purposes a cleric 15 / wizard 15 at 20th level is tempting though...


You don't want to go there. While the Mystic Theurge finishes off fairly strong, it's a struggle to keep them alive and even marginally useful in the low- and mid-level ranges. You're much better off as a Cleric/Contemplative, Cloistered or otherwise. As far as after Contemplative... your character concept screams "Loremaster", which is a fairly decent PrC with full caster levels.

warmachine
2007-09-04, 08:37 AM
On the D&D Wiki (I don't have the link on me), there is a homebrew, prestige class called Sage. Quite fun as it gets 8+INT skill points per level, all Knowledge skills as class skills and class features that give Skill Focus feats to academic skills. Spell progression is possible with Wizard but not Cleric though. Not as powerful as straight Wizard or Cleric either but much more bookwormy.

Leon
2007-09-04, 10:20 AM
He likes Half orcs, let him like half orcs for what ever reason he has decided to play one for and not a "optimal race"


Now to topic

Let the CHA slide and Boost INT as much as you can - while not forsaking WIS, let you natural STR bonus work and keep it average, get at least if not at first a 16 in DEX and Ethier a Breatplate or Mithril Fullplate

Highish dex would also help a Ranged Cleric stance also

John_D
2007-09-04, 12:23 PM
Thanks for the mystic theurge warning, assembled Admiral Ackbars.

I think the class breakdown will probably end up as Cloistered Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 10 / Heirophant 5. Loremaster looks nice as well though... I'll have to think about this!

Telonius
2007-09-04, 01:14 PM
Loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm)has the added bonus of being undeniably core; it's in the DMG. I've most often seen it used with Wizards, but there's nothing preventing a Cleric from taking levels in it. You need to burn a feat on Skill Focus (Knowledge), but the bumps to your saves after a couple levels might make that worth it.

Person_Man
2007-09-04, 01:41 PM
It's hard to go wrong with any Cleric build. Even when done poorly, they're generally one of the strongest classes. Here's some advice:

1) Keep full cleric caster progression. Never multi-class or PrC into something that slows it down, because nothing is more powerful then access to higher level spells.

2) The best domains grant access to powerful arcane spells that you otherwise wouldn't have access to. Go to Crystalkeep and read through them. My favorites are Time, Travel, Slime, Trickery, Illusion, Truth, Shadow, and Dream. Though obviously you're more limited if you want to worship Baccob for whatever reason.

3) The only reason to be a Half-Orc is Headlong Rush (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a). Be sure to use a reach weapon to avoid the AoO. Being a full Orc would be even smarter, since the stat bonus is better. Otherwise your best bet is the standard Human or Strongheart Halfling.

4) Divine Oracle PrC isn't useful unless you have a strong Ref Save. Otherwise your Prescient Sense (Evasion in full armor) will just fail most of the time. So be sure to have a high Dex and a Cloak of Resistance. Or go with another PrC like Church Inquisitor or Radiant Servant of Pelor.

5) Buy the Spell Compendium. More spells equals more power.

6) Your best feats are generally metamagic and domain feats. Look at Complete Champion and Complete Divine if you need ideas.

kpenguin
2007-09-05, 04:55 AM
I'd say to drop Divine Oracle and Hierophant and go for Contemplative and Loremaster for your prcs. Contemplative is about meditation and deep thought so it feels right with your concept and Loremaster practically screams bookworm.