Unwanted worshipping

[Bad Wolf]

Can a god stop someone from worshipping them?

Let's say that a cleric's power comes from a belief in that Mystra is superior to all other deities being magic itself, and that everyone must be forced to worship her.

Obviously she wouldn't like this. But could she do anything about it directly?

[jk7275]

Killing the person is one way.

[Crake]

A cleric gaining their power from mystra who transgresses mystra's code of conduct can have their power stripped away from them:


Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

[martixy]

Sure they can.

Case in point:
Her Serenity, the Lady of Pain.

[Nifft]

She could also just cast suggestion on him to change his behavior, or ask one of her worshipers to do that.

[GrayDeath]

Aside from the above, how about, ya know, TELLING them that they do not want to be worshipped like that?
After all, CLerics tend to commune with their gods rather often (Eberron aside)....


Otherwise the good old "Let someone higher up in the Hierarchy tell them to do a Quest for enlightenment always works....or not? ^^

[Crake]

Aside from the above, how about, ya know, TELLING them that they do not want to be worshipped like that?
After all, CLerics tend to commune with their gods rather often (Eberron aside)....


Otherwise the good old "Let someone higher up in the Hierarchy tell them to do a Quest for enlightenment always works....or not? ^^

Agreed. If this character is still in the process of being made, tell him that he never would have gotten clerical powers if he bastardized Mystra's believes like that, and if it's a recent shift, then have him lose his powers, but make sure he's aware (he's a cleric after all) that Mystra's ideals do not in any way align with his.

[Covenant12]

Crake had likely the best solution, a cleric of Mystra using force to convert other worshipers of good gods or equivalent to Mystra would quickly be an ex-cleric.

Previous editions losing access to your god meant you still had whatever spells you had memorized, you just couldn't get any more until your god came back/regained favor/changed god. I don't recall this making it into 3.X, RAW it looks like instant complete spells loss. Some DM's could prefer the previous rules.

Mystra specifically has the ability to remove Weave access from any Weave user. This is immediate, but a good way to piss players off, as well as weakening Mystra mathematically a little as long as Weave access is denied. I wouldn't ever do this to a player unless it was logically very much against Mystra/Weave, like preparing multiple epic spells to create many massive areas of permanent anti-magic. The only advantage to this is access is denied instantly and completely, regardless of edition.

Again though, like Crake said, RAW a cleric of Mystra wouldn't do that for long.

[Telok]

So here's an idea (and yes, it's totally based off of someone I know), what if someone worshipped Vecna badly? That is, the person is in love with the ideas and concepts of secrets, undeath, ect., but they are also really bad at them. And I'm talking hilariously, almost cartoonishly, bad at things like learning and keeping secrets or being icked out by undead to the point of trying to destroy them.

The person really loves the whole 'worship Vecna' thing and is a decent adventurer, they're just really really bad at following the actual religion.

[Nifft]

So here's an idea (and yes, it's totally based off of someone I know), what if someone worshipped Vecna badly? That is, the person is in love with the ideas and concepts of secrets, undeath, ect., but they are also really bad at them. And I'm talking hilariously, almost cartoonishly, bad at things like learning and keeping secrets or being icked out by undead to the point of trying to destroy them.

The person really loves the whole 'worship Vecna' thing and is a decent adventurer, they're just really really bad at following the actual religion.

Vecna would give that guy a hand.

[daremetoidareyo]

Vecna would give that guy a hand.

Vecna would keep an eye on him

[Spore]

Vecna would give that guy a hand.

Boooo. I know making a good joke is hard.
https://i.imgur.com/M5FPpGD.jpg

[Avigor]

Ultimately, it depends on how active the deity is, and how much they actually give a crap about what is going on. The example of Mystra might result in access to any divine or arcane power being revoked, but Lathander doesn't seem to freak out too much about those who believe he is the reincarnation of Amaunter given how the Heretic of the Faith (Risen Sun/Three-Faced Sun) allows such characters to still cast divine spells.

[JeenLeen]

I don't think they could really stop someone from worshiping them (outside of mind-altering spells or killing them*), but they could stop granting spells to a cleric.
They could discourage worship via a divine vision, sending messengers to tell them to stop, removing spell access for a cleric, etc.

*neat metaphysics/cosmology question: would killing them work? If they devoutly believe they are worshiping their god, would they still go to its divine habitation and continue to worship it? Obviously, it solves most of the problems, but might not stop the actual worship.

[Nifft]

Vecna would keep an eye on him Sufficient time with either artifact of Vecna would ensure that you see eye-to-eye, but also that you're dancing in the palm of his hand.


Boooo. I know making a good joke is hard.
If you can't find those humerus, I've prepared a visual aid:
https://i.imgur.com/Xae9rL3.jpg
Bone up on anatomy, I suppose?


Ultimately, it depends on how active the deity is, and how much they actually give a crap about what is going on. The example of Mystra might result in access to any divine or arcane power being revoked, but Lathander doesn't seem to freak out too much about those who believe he is the reincarnation of Amaunter given how the Heretic of the Faith (Risen Sun/Three-Faced Sun) allows such characters to still cast divine spells. FR seems to be an activist-gods setting, but yeah there's that Heretic thing.

Maybe the credo / ethos / code of conduct is close enough between those gods that the current one doesn't find so-called heretics to be out of line?


I don't think they could really stop someone from worshiping them (outside of mind-altering spells or killing them*), but they could stop granting spells to a cleric.
They could discourage worship via a divine vision, sending messengers to tell them to stop, removing spell access for a cleric, etc.

*neat metaphysics/cosmology question: would killing them work? If they devoutly believe they are worshiping their god, would they still go to its divine habitation and continue to worship it? Obviously, it solves most of the problems, but might not stop the actual worship. The Lady of Pain was mentioned above -- she explicitly discourages worship, and her methods are banishment (with a maze spell) and murder.

By implication, murder works well enough in her cosmology (which is Planescape, but which can have significant crossover to the Realms if you want).

[Telonius]

If the guy is really that horrible at worshiping Vecna, I'm sure the god himself would take action to help him get ahead.

[Venger]

So here's an idea (and yes, it's totally based off of someone I know), what if someone worshipped Vecna badly? That is, the person is in love with the ideas and concepts of secrets, undeath, ect., but they are also really bad at them. And I'm talking hilariously, almost cartoonishly, bad at things like learning and keeping secrets or being icked out by undead to the point of trying to destroy them.

The person really loves the whole 'worship Vecna' thing and is a decent adventurer, they're just really really bad at following the actual religion.
I guess Vecnans are non-evangelical.

[Feantar]

Vecna would give that guy a hand.


Vecna would keep an eye on him


If the guy is really that horrible at worshiping Vecna, I'm sure the god himself would take action to help him get ahead.

They'd have a heart to heart.

Okay people, focus. We need puns for the Scalp, First, Second, Third and Last Digits, Molars, Incisors, Foot and Skin.

[Acanous]

Well yeah but I’m pretty sure Vecna wouldn’t let that guy get under his skin.

Many DMs don’t like having active gods, and skirt around issues of the faith by just leaving it vague. If you want gods, and your god in particular to play a role in the game directly, discuss it with the DM.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I guess Vecnans are non-evangelical.

I mean, obviously?

Vecna is the god of secrets first and foremost. I would expect induction into the faith is done by individual candidate selection and grooming prior to the nominator even revealing that he is an adherent to the faith; very hush-hush all the way through.

If a vecnan is standing in a pulpit, haranguing a crowd, he's not preaching his own faith.

[Andor13]

D&D Gods are generally only slightly less [Expletive Deleted] than the Greek Gods, and the FR Deities are even more active than most. She can turn him into a Wombat wearing a sweatshirt that says "I do not condone this." Seriously, if Lloth can turn uppity males into Driders, Mystara can turn an annoying fanboy into anything she pleases.

[Extra Anchovies]

Mystra doesn't want to be supreme above other gods? If Mystra were elevated to the station she deserves, she'd understand why she needs to be supreme above other gods! She's just confused, that's all! I love Mystra, and I know what's best for her!

Maybe if there were another god who I could trick into helping me, so I could pay lip service while using their power for Mystra's gain. Perhaps Set, god of hate, betrayal, evil magic, and ambition? Yes, they'll make a perfect dupe, for sure...

I mean, obviously?

Vecna is the god of secrets first and foremost. I would expect induction into the faith is done by individual candidate selection and grooming prior to the nominator even revealing that he is an adherent to the faith; very hush-hush all the way through.

If a vecnan is standing in a pulpit, haranguing a crowd, he's not preaching his own faith.You couldn't have been more on-the-nose :smallsmile:

New clerics of Vecna are so carefully groomed that they often don’t know what they’re being trained for. Many think that they’re joining an obscure sect of Boccob or Wee Jas. The truth revealed to them only after they’ve proved their willingness to do anything in exchange for power and knowledge.
Although, a character of any class could learn about Vecna independently, decide they like this cool and edgy skeleton wizard, and take up 'worship' of Vecna in utterly bizarre and heretical ways. Perhaps their open idolization of Vecna would attract murderous attention from more conventional cultists, or even cause a few secret worshippers to blow their cover in a fit of outrage. :smallamused:

[Telok]

Does Vecna have a sense of humor? This could be important.

As to the preaching though, a proselytizer wouldn't want to 'preach to the choir' if they were looking for new converts. They would go with preaching to the heathens. Granted, standing on a street corner shouting might not be the traditional Vecnan method of recruitment but there are no minimum Int or Wis requirements to become a cleric (if you're desperate for casting you can get away with an 11, that guidance spell, UMD, and scrolls).

[Feantar]

Does Vecna have a sense of humor? This could be important.

He created the Head of Vecna after someone made the legend up, so I'd say yes.

But, in general, if one began openly preaching pro Vecna sentiments, trouble would be afoot.

[Venger]

He created the Head of Vecna after someone made the legend up, so I'd say yes.

But, in general, if one began openly preaching pro Vecna sentiments, trouble would be afoot.

What book is his foot in?