Undead Forest

[Death_Lord12]

I am planning on having an undead forest come up later in my campaign, and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for it. Suggestions can include creatures, properties/layout of the land, pretty much anything. The players will be at level 18-20, but there's 8 of them so any help with coming up with monsters to fight would be appreciated. I'll use lower CR monsters, as I can just have them in numbers, but preferably at least CR 14 (which I'll probably advance anyways).

I know there is a home brew post somewhere on here with Undead plants like a vampire treant and a dryad wight. I was possibly planning on using these, but I'm thinking I'll need more than just those.

Not sure if this helps, but the forest is on a peninsula and in the center is a cave on the side of one of the mountains, which is where the PCs have to go. I already have safety measures in place so the PCs can't just teleport to the cave and skip the forest, but if you have any specific ideas for guarding around the cave that'll help too.

I'm open for pretty much any source, 3.5/3, PF, dragon magazine, homebrew (if it's balanced), etc. Also if you just have an idea but not anything with stats that works too.

Thanks in advance.

[Elkad]

I hope those "safety measures" are "get the last piece of the McGuffin from somewhere in the forest" and not just a no-button to teleportation.

Because it either won't work, even if someone has to use a Wish to teleport the party, or you'll have to DM-Fiat it, which leads to resentment.

[Aotrs Commander]

In my experience with larger parties and high-level characters, I'd be more inclined to go for big, flashy encounters more like boss battles.

Advanced Unicorn Lich (with class levels), riden by, oh, I dunno, Vampire Dryad Dread Necromancer (or other Cha-based caster), backed up by, ooh, say, ghost or gravetouched ghoul (i.e. templated) [insert suitable humanoid fey] rangers (as archers), with a couple of similarly templated Nymph Druids (of lower level), all screened by a load of mid-level meatshields - e.g. maybe a few corrupted undead treents... Maybe splash in a couple of dread wraiths or something. A regular little forest-queen-and-her-retinue-got-BADLY-corrupted sort of thing.

But I do very much like this sort of mixed encounter.

[Jiece18]

An undead druid who summons undead versions of the summon nature ally creatures would be neat. For flavor you could have some zombie birds or wolves be seen around in the forest. Not necessarily hostel, but good back drop. I was in a campaign once, where we came across a night hag's lair. It was in a swamp and a near endless stream of zombies would rise out of the water during our fight with her. I can't think of specific creatures, but a number of undead templets can be added to anything that you would normally find in a forest.

[Acanous]

An undead druid who summons undead versions of the summon nature ally creatures would be neat. For flavor you could have some zombie birds or wolves be seen around in the forest. Not necessarily hostel, but good back drop. I was in a campaign once, where we came across a night hag's lair. It was in a swamp and a near endless stream of zombies would rise out of the water during our fight with her. I can't think of specific creatures, but a number of undead templets can be added to anything that you would normally find in a forest.

Isn’t that what the Blighter PrC does?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Isn’t that what the Blighter PrC does?
If you're thinking of the Blighter's Deforestation, that just kills plants, with no further effect (the class also has a few undead-themed abilities, but nothing related to plants). Talontar Blightlord is a much better class for making an undead forest. It allows you to spread a plague that turns creatures into plants, and then undead (so they become undead plants).

[Falontani]

IRL there is a tree called the Pando Tree (also called the Trembling Giant). It is a single tree with roots that go roughly a tenth of a mile. Its calls a Clonal Colony. Theoretically an old enough Clonal Colony could go several hundred miles if needed. Since it is all one organism you could technically animate the whole thing as an undead creature.

In savage species there is the Wight Template; any living creature may become a wight through negative levels, so it isn't a stretch to apply this template to any living creature (which an awakened tree can count as).

If you turned the Pando Tree into a wight creature then every creature therein would have become wights themselves. Apply the Wight Template to all the squirrels, birds, deer, wolves, bears, etc. As well as Wight Dryads all over the place. I would suggest adding several of the actual tree creatures into the forest and give them the wight template as well. Make it so that if they dont have protection from negative levels they will cry.

You can also give them all the cool things

[DrMotives]

Unapproachable East has a blighspawned template, that turns plants & animals into disease-infested plant monsters that spread the template more. Eventually, the disease kills them, slapping on the juju zombie template. So it will turn animals into undead plants.

Also, for terrible pun-based monsters, you can use the Revived Fossil template on treants to make petrified trees. Sure, they don't have the skeletal system the template requires, but I'd ignore that for this one. It does make them mindless, but awaken undead can sorta fix that.

[Andor13]

Don't be afraid to reskin things. For example take some Ropers, slap on an undead template, bump them up in HD/Size to reach the effect you want and call them undead willow trees. Take a colony of Cranium Rats, make them undead, give them fluffy tails and you have a possessed squirrel storm.

[Thurbane]

I had some fun putting a party up against a Gravetouched Ghoul Nymph a few years back.

The Murderjack (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a) is pretty lethal, so slap an undead template of your choice on one (Gravetouched Ghoul, Bone Creature etc.).

Good thing with both of these monsters, is that you can put caster levels on them if you need to bump up the challenge (Druid and Bard, respectively).

[SirNibbles]

Dragon Magazine #292, page 76 has an article called "Bad Seeds 12 Reasons Not to Go into the Forest Alone. It contains some interesting ways to make the forest more dangerous in addition to the undead. Most of the effects caused by the trees and other creatures wouldn't hurt undead, making it a good environment for undead to exist.

The Death's Head Tree, at the least, seems like it'd be a good fit. You can have it wait to show its true nature until a round or two into combat in order to allow the undead to gain some sort of tactical advantage.

[ShurikVch]

Hollow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20021021a)
"Little Things" (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20021009a)
Restless Prey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030531a)
Vampiric Plants (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a)

Beastwraith (Dragon #357)
Deadwood Revenant (Dragon #357)
Forest Haunt (Monster Manual V)
Ghostly Green Dragon
Undead Treant (Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene)
Web Mummy (Monster Manual IV) - because "Tomb spiders prefer to live in temperate forests at the fringes of civilization."

Dread Beast template (Towers of High Sorcery)
Undead Beast (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised)
Wichtlin (Bestiary Of Krynn, Revised)

More templates:
Drowned One (Dungeon #106)
Nether Creature (Dragon #297)
Wraith (Dragon #300)


In savage species there is the Wight Template; any living creature may become a wight through negative levels, so it isn't a stretch to apply this template to any living creature (which an awakened tree can count as).Note: Awakened Trees aren't, actually, living: "living" in D&D means "to have a Con score", and Awakened Trees are based on Animated Objets (thus, "Con -")
You may try to use the variant of Wight template from the Dragon #300 - it specified "corporeal", but not "living"
Or try to find stats of Animated Trees from the Garden of the Plantmaster - they're have actual Con score, and a bit stronger than Animated Objects (but still mindless)
Or use one of those:
Bonetree (Dragon Compendium)
Dark Tree (Monsters of Faerûn)
Flesh-Mulcher Tree (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20020419a)
Hangman Tree (Tome of Horrors, Revised)
Spirit Tree (Ghostwalk)
Viper Tree, Elder (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits)
Wayreth Tree (Towers of High Sorcery)

[Falontani]

Note: Awakened Trees aren't, actually, living: "living" in D&D means "to have a Con score", and Awakened Trees are based on Animated Objets (thus, "Con -")


There are debates several pages long in several different posts about this; the two sides are basically:
A tree is alive. All creatures with the plant type have a con score. Awakened Trees keep the Plant Type, and do not gain the construct type. Ergo they must have a con score, that was just never specified.

The other is that it is based off of an animated object of similar size, meaning it has construct traits and is a construct with the Plant Type. Meaning it's con score must be a -.

Truly the rules do not handle awakened trees with very much elegance at all. Construct traits would also make trees immune to energy drain, negative energy, and positive energy. This would imply that trees may not be healed nor harmed with positive or negative energy, awakened or not. This is a true dysfunction as several spells deal negative damage to plant life (which we have just proven in the case that awakened trees dont have con) are immune to.

I personally believe it to be a dysfunction similar to Humanoid Monks not being proficient with Unarmed Strikes.

I just want to point out that I am not calling you incorrect, but that the rules are unclear in this aspect.

[Goaty14]

IRL there is a tree called the Pando Tree (also called the Trembling Giant). It is a single tree with roots that go roughly a tenth of a mile. Its calls a Clonal Colony. Theoretically an old enough Clonal Colony could go several hundred miles if needed. Since it is all one organism you could technically animate the whole thing as an undead creature.

Give this a few Knight levels, and then we get into the 500' rope argument, except it is all RAW.

[Scowling Dragon]

Maybe the undead forest has a hive mind? For a epic set of PCs they literally have to fight a entire zombie forest?

[ShurikVch]

Truly the rules do not handle awakened trees with very much elegance at all.I'm agreeing with it completely.

I just want to point out that I am not calling you incorrect, but that the rules are unclear in this aspect.Maybe, but not as unclear as you say.
There are some points:

All creatures with the plant type have a con score.Plant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#plantType) type doesn't says so.


Ergo they must have a con score, that was just never specified.Oh, but it was:
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6.Since Constitution isn't Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, it should be "as if it were an animated object".


Construct traits would also make trees immune to energy drain, negative energy, and positive energy. This would imply that trees may not be healed nor harmed with positive or negative energy, awakened or not.Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType) type also doesn't says so.


This is a true dysfunction as several spells deal negative damage to plant life (which we have just proven in the case that awakened trees dont have con) are immune to.Such as?
And if there are, actually, some spells which are unable to hurt Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm)ed trees, why it should be a problem rather than one more case of “specific trumps general”?

[King of Nowhere]

You may be interested in my homebrewed undead horror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22881995&postcount=16). It's strong enough to challenge a level 18 party, and almost everything it has is AoE, so it also works against large numbers. It's fluffed to be a spoof on the whole "too horrible to describe" trope, but it can be refluffed to be dead serious quite easily

[hamishspence]

In savage species there is the Wight Template; any living creature may become a wight through negative levels, so it isn't a stretch to apply this template to any living creature (which an awakened tree can count as).

The template itself is more limited (as is the updated version in Libris Mortis) - hence, as mentioned you need to turn to Dragon Magazine:



You may try to use the variant of Wight template from the Dragon #300 - it specified "corporeal", but not "living"

to get the less restricted template. Invoking the "creatures drained to death arise as wights" Energy Drain rule:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels

is a good way to justify using less limited template on things that aren't humanoids.




Note: Awakened Trees aren't, actually, living: "living" in D&D means "to have a Con score", and Awakened Trees are based on Animated Objets (thus, "Con -")


Regarding Plants - I'd look at it this way.

A regular plant is a living object -

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#plantType

since they are specifically called out as both "object" and "alive".

All Living Creatures have a Con:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities

so, if Animate Plants turns it from a living object into a creature - and when the spell expires, it turns back into a Living Object - then, shouldn't it be living, throughout the period where it's turned from an object to a creature and back again?

A possible resolution - if you absolutely must use the Construct type and the Animated Object stats - apply the "living construct" rules from Eberron/MM3, and say that it inherits the "living" trait from when it was originally a regular object.

[Thurbane]

All Living Creatures have a Con:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities

There are some corner cases, though.

While I am loathe to hold up stat blocks as a source of RAW, this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040904a) lists a Corrupted Flesh Golem, which is an Aberration with Con as a non-ability.

[Falontani]

There are some corner cases, though.

While I am loathe to hold up stat blocks as a source of RAW, this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040904a) lists a Corrupted Flesh Golem, which is an Aberration with Con as a non-ability.

The Corrupted Template from Book of Vile Darkness does not make creatures alive, just turns them into aberrations. If it was updated to 3.5 completely it would be a template that makes the type Aberration [Augmented Construct].

[Thurbane]

The Corrupted Template from Book of Vile Darkness does not make creatures alive, just turns them into aberrations. If it was updated to 3.5 completely it would be a template that makes the type Aberration [Augmented Construct].

There was an update in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, and as far as I can tell, works the same as the 3.0 version.

I made a thread about it not long ago, where I was confused by the application of the template to a Nimblewright: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544157

[ShurikVch]

One more idea? how about the Incarnum Terrains? Namely - Lost Site, Midnight Grove, Soulclamor Forest, and Necrocarnum Bog



Regarding Plants - I'd look at it this way.

A regular plant is a living object -

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#plantType

since they are specifically called out as both "object" and "alive".

All Living Creatures have a Con:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilitiesNote: while regular plants, are, indeed, alive, there are no such RAW for Awakened Trees


so, if Animate Plants turns it from a living object into a creature - and when the spell expires, it turns back into a Living Object - then, shouldn't it be living, throughout the period where it's turned from an object to a creature and back again?Look at this that way: if you PAO a living plant into, say, a Wight, the plant in question was alive before the spell, and will be alive when it ends. Does it mean it also was alive when the spell was in effect?


A possible resolution - if you absolutely must use the Construct type and the Animated Object stats - apply the "living construct" rules from Eberron/MM3, and say that it inherits the "living" trait from when it was originally a regular object.Not the best idea - Living Constructs are vulnerable to nonlethal damage, and the presumption of possibility to K.O. a walking tree without causing any actual damage is patently silly

[nintendoh]

It would warm my heart if you used the harbinger prc for something.

[Cirrylius]

Use Swarms of Animal Ghosts of various sizes. The PCS can awaken to find a faintly transparent mob of perfectly ordinary Woodland creatures ringing the camp, staring silently at them.

Also, if the cave is on the side of the mountain, try to find something to discourage them from flying above the Encounters in the forest Below, like swarms of Undead birds or vermin, maybe a collossal air necromental that viciously swats anything above a certain altitude, but otherwise just sits and grumbles like that Xanth storm. Maybe make the most expedient way up to the cave climbing what turns out to be a gigantic assassin Vine that leads up, or a steep, frigid river rapid progressing from the cave inhabited by packs of feral Undead nixies and small water necromentals.

[hamishspence]

Look at this that way: if you PAO a living plant into, say, a Wight, the plant in question was alive before the spell, and will be alive when it ends. Does it mean it also was alive when the spell was in effect?


We know that a creature turned into a stone statue is "not dead" for the duration of the spell - even if it does not "ping" on spells that detect life".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm

So - It's alive before, alive during (but unable to detect as alive) and alive after - despite a major reshaping.

Animate Plants "imbues plants with mobility and a semblance of life" - and they already have life - so in practice, it just makes them look more alive than they are already.

[ShurikVch]

We know that a creature turned into a stone statue is "not dead" for the duration of the spell - even if it does not "ping" on spells that detect life".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm

So - It's alive before, alive during (but unable to detect as alive) and alive after - despite a major reshaping.False analogy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_analogy#False_analogy) and false dilemma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma).
In D&D, "not alive" is not the same as "dead".
Petrified (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#petrified) creature is unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious), not dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead). Why should it matter?

By the Glossary, living (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=) is:
Any creature with a Constitution score is a living creature. Constructs and undead are not living creatures.
Source: MM3I selected Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm) for my PAO (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) example. Does Wight have a Con score?



Animate Plants "imbues plants with mobility and a semblance of life" - and they already have life - so in practice, it just makes them look more alive than they are already.It's funny how we started from Awaken and jumped to Animate Plants.
How about to go straight to the source - Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) spell?
Since non-animated plants are objects, it should work on them.
So, will Animated Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) (shrub) be a living creature? Will it have a Con score?

[Berenger]

You could steal the World Tree scene from Warcraft III, either straight or with a twist. Basically, you have to survive and stall the enemy (as the defender) or break through and complete your goal (as the attacker) until the ancient elven spirits gathered by the World Tree in sufficient number to perform X (blast an otherwise invincible enemy, purge the land, summon some elder elven god...). Those spirits can be "pure" and on Team Player or "corrupted" and on Team Undead. Works as a time limit, a nuke, a terrain changer, a buff to certain types of magic etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpklIrmfxWA

[hamishspence]

How about to go straight to the source - Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) spell?
Since non-animated plants are objects, it should work on them.
So, will Animated Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) (shrub) be a living creature? Will it have a Con score?

IMO, since the original object was living in the first place, it should. Hence my suggestion to use the Living Construct rules.



In D&D, "not alive" is not the same as "dead".
Petrified (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#petrified) creature is unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious), not dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead). Why should it matter?


I'm arguing that, in D&D, "not dead" with regard to a creature, is the same as "alive". Especially if the creature was not undead or construct before, a "living creature"

"Not dead" "Alive" "Living" - all mean basically the same thing.

PaO is a bit more powerful than Flesh To Stone - it can turn a human into a pebble, or a marionette, or vice versa. Question is (since it can be used to duplicate Flesh To Stone - is the human "dead" while transformed?

Probably not - since they're not dead when turned into a statue..

I selected Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm) for my PAO (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) example.


Can it change a person into an undead? It doesn't say. The shapechange spell with an "any nonunique creature" ruling, does make sense as being able to turn the caster into undead - but the PaO spell refers back to the polymorph rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#polymorph

which don't allow constructs and undead unless explicitly specified otherwise.

Is the human who casts shapechange "an undead creature" when temporarily transformed into one - or does it just look like an undead creature and have some (not all) of its powers? Since certain undead have "trapped souls" or no soul at all (same with constructs), does shapechange eject the soul from the body?

IMO, it shouldn't - it should be more a "superpowerful disguise spell" than something that messes with the user's soul.


Similarly - I'm not sure that polymorph any object should create a soul for a pebble turned into a human, bring the human to life, and then eject the soul the moment the spell ends.

Simpler, for it to just be magically reshaping the pebble into a human corpse until the spell ends.

It says it can duplicate stone to flesh - and in the stone to flesh spell, an ordinary statue turned into flesh, is turned into dead flesh, not living flesh.

I'd say the same applies to "pebble turned into human" - it's a corpse.
There are debates several pages long in several different posts about this; the two sides are basically:
A tree is alive. All creatures with the plant type have a con score. Awakened Trees keep the Plant Type, and do not gain the construct type. Ergo they must have a con score, that was just never specified.

The other is that it is based off of an animated object of similar size, meaning it has construct traits and is a construct with the Plant Type. Meaning it's con score must be a -.

Construct and Plant are types, not subtypes - you can't have both at once. Something is either a plant or a construct - it is not a "Plant Construct".




While I am loathe to hold up stat blocks as a source of RAW, this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040904a) lists a Corrupted Flesh Golem, which is an Aberration with Con as a non-ability.

Online articles can be weird. The Half-Flesh Golem Troll has Con - and Regeneration 5. Yet, according to the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Epic Handbook Atropals have the same issue - since they didn't get properly updated to 3.5 - they just got a PDF update (which the SRD copied) which failed to take into account things like the new rules for Regeneration.

[ShurikVch]

I'm arguing that, in D&D, "not dead" with regard to a creature, is the same as "alive". Especially if the creature was not undead or construct before, a "living creature"

"Not dead" "Alive" "Living" - all mean basically the same thing.Note: ordinary pebble isn't dead - it just never was alive... :smallwink:
(Fun facts: dead creatures are still living creatures in D&D RAW - since they're keeping their ability scores. Creatures with "Con -" couldn't be dead at all - just destroyed)


PaO is a bit more powerful than Flesh To Stone - it can turn a human into a pebble, or a marionette, or vice versa. Question is (since it can be used to duplicate Flesh To Stone - is the human "dead" while transformed?

Probably not - since they're not dead when turned into a statue..The human wouldn't be dead, since the RAW doesn't says so


Can it change a person into an undead? It doesn't say. The shapechange spell with an "any nonunique creature" ruling, does make sense as being able to turn the caster into undead - but the PaO spell refers back to the polymorph rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#polymorph

which don't allow constructs and undead unless explicitly specified otherwise.Nice point.
So, if we shapechange a tree into Bodak - will it still be a living during the spell's duration?


Is the human who casts shapechange "an undead creature" when temporarily transformed into one - or does it just look like an undead creature and have some (not all) of its powers? Since certain undead have "trapped souls" or no soul at all (same with constructs), does shapechange eject the soul from the body?

IMO, it shouldn't - it should be more a "superpowerful disguise spell" than something that messes with the user's soul.On one hand - "trapped souls" or no soul at all may protect from certain effects - such as Devourer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devourer.htm)'s Trap Essence, Death Giant's Steal Soul, or Soulreaver's Vampiric Death
On the other hand - RAW is remarkably silent in regard of souls...

[hamishspence]

So, if we shapechange a tree into Bodak - will it still be a living during the spell's duration?

Shapechange cannot be cast on other creatures, only self. The tree would need to be a creature in the first place, a spellcaster.

I'd suggest that transforming temporarily into an undead doesn't actually kill you (resetting all your spells, removing them from your memory, ejecting your soul from your body)


Dead
The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#deathandPreparedSpellRetention


Death and Prepared Spell Retention
If a spellcaster dies, all prepared spells stored in his or her mind are wiped away. Potent magic (such as raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection) can recover the lost energy when it recovers the character.

you're passing from living to undead, without ever being dead.

It's worth noting that a Treant's Animate Trees ability, and the Liveoak spell:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/liveoak.htm

both have the "animated tree" have Treant combat stats - presumably including Con and Hit Points as appropriate.

[ShurikVch]

Shapechange cannot be cast on other creatures, only self. The tree would need to be a creature in the first place, a spellcaster.

I'd suggest that transforming temporarily into an undead doesn't actually kill you (resetting all your spells, removing them from your memory, ejecting your soul from your body)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#deathandPreparedSpellRetention

you're passing from living to undead, without ever being dead.As I pointed with my "pebble" example, it's very possible to be "not living" without being "dead".



Online articles can be weird. The Half-Flesh Golem Troll has Con - and Regeneration 5. Yet, according to the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Epic Handbook Atropals have the same issue - since they didn't get properly updated to 3.5 - they just got a PDF update (which the SRD copied) which failed to take into account things like the new rules for Regeneration.Please, re-read the article: that Half-Flesh Golem Troll has Con 27, thus - nothing is wrong with it
Since this flesh half-golem has not yet failed a Will save for limb attachment, it has not become a full-fledged construct.

[hamishspence]

Please, re-read the article: that Half-Flesh Golem Troll has Con 27, thus - nothing is wrong with it

I noticed shortly afterward - which is why I put a line through that bit.

[ShurikVch]

Shapechange cannot be cast on other creatures, only self. The tree would need to be a creature in the first place, a spellcaster.This is hardly a problem: there are certain number of ways to cast personal spells on somebody else - such as symbiont's Share Spells rules, Spellguard of Silverymoon, possession, and inscribed rune spell trap

[hamishspence]

The Corrupted Template from Book of Vile Darkness does not make creatures alive, just turns them into aberrations. If it was updated to 3.5 completely it would be a template that makes the type Aberration [Augmented Construct].
There was an update in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, and as far as I can tell, works the same as the 3.0 version.

I made a thread about it not long ago, where I was confused by the application of the template to a Nimblewright: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544157



My view is as follows:

Constructs "were never alive". Undead are the "once-alive" that are not "alive" or "living" now, for the purpose of templates that say "any living creature". Everything else on the Creature Type list is, by default, alive.

Regular plants are "alive" but not "creatures"

"Plant creatures" are, at least by default, "living"

"Any living creature has at least one point of CON"

Therefore, IMO:

"creatures with the plant type" that used to be "regular plants" should be given CON scores, even if it's not actually specified in the spell description - in order to make sure that they obey the basic rules.

I'd say the same applies to Corrupted Constructs - it's just like the Incarnate Construct spell from Savage Species - it changes the creature's type into one that is by default living (Aberration in the case of Corrupted Constructs, Humanoid in the case of Constructs) - so the creature needs to gain an Con score to abide by the rules.

I figure that the writer of the online article just overlooked these basic principles. A "corrected" version of such a creature, would have a CON score.

It's worth noting that the Corrupted (and Corrupted by the Abyss) templates both say "+4 to Con".

There's precedent for "a nonability counts as 0 for the purposes of determining the final score once it's increased" - since we see this happen with Sentry Oozes from Dungeonscape (which has, on its list of Ability Modifiers, Int +2) : going from Int - to Int 2.

[Falontani]

Construct and Plant are types, not subtypes - you can't have both at once. Something is either a plant or a construct - it is not a "Plant Construct".

I agree with everything you said but this. All types can also be subtypes if you throw the (augmented) beforehand.
Many undead use this, their type is: Undead (augmented *original type*)

I have no idea if this means that an Undead (augmented magical beast) is affected by both undead bane and magical beast bane, or just undead bane

[Andor13]

I am planning on having an undead forest come up later in my campaign, and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for it. Suggestions can include creatures, properties/layout of the land,

Effects for the forest at large.

All kinds of things are possible.

For example everything that passes a night in the forest must make a will save or gain a negative level, if it kills you you come back as a (whatever undead you please.)
Anything slain in the forest has its soul trapped, and it will follow the slayer around as a harmless ghost meeping pitifully.
The forest is full of tricksy undead roots and any object left unattended tends to disappear into the ground.
The streams of the forest carry a dark enchantment and any living thing foolish enough to drink from them falls into a deep sleep like Bombur in the Mirkwood.
The barrier between life and death is weak here and peering into a forest pool at night grants visions of the after life. If you call the name of a loved one they may appear and converse. Or something horrid might attack.
Game effects like channeling negative energy is easier/more powerful while channeling positive is harder/weaker.
All conjured creature gain an undead template whether you wanted them to or not.


The cause, or purpose of the forest may also come into play. Maybe a series of difficult spellcraft checks lead the wizard to slowly realize that the entire forest is slowly shaping itself to create a single enormous glyph/circle and when it is finish the spell will go off, or perhaps the entire forest is a single massive spell/object created to keep something trapped or bound at its center.

[Segev]

What do they need from the cave? What are these "safety measures," and why - in-universe - are they in place? What do you want the party's experience in the Undead Forest to be like?

[Death_Lord12]

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far, some of them are very helpful, especially the Talontar Blightlord. I'm still looking for suggestions if anyone has any more.


What do they need from the cave? What are these "safety measures," and why - in-universe - are they in place? What do you want the party's experience in the Undead Forest to be like?

The cave leads to the BBEG's underground castle. The safety measure is basically just an anti teleport effect. The PC's will be fighting through the forest, to the castle, to kill the BBEG.

[Segev]

So the BBEG just has a no-teleporting-field over his base and the surrounding forest? Alright.

Do the party know what it looks like, or have a good description? Because without that, even greater teleport fails. And a misleading description can still get them to the wrong place. A non-magical anti-teleport measure is to keep the look of the place a carefully-guarded secret, and to let out false descriptions that drop people into themed faux entrances that are just surrounded by traps and lead back out into the Undead Forest (or, better still, someplace else entirely).

No anti-teleport effect, however, will prevent a wish-enabled transportation. It explicitly just works. I warn you of this because it's something 17+ level adventurers have reasonable access to.


For atmosphere, and to ensure that flying over it doesn't help much, I would shroud the entire forest in thick fog. Then have patches of permanent solid fog scattered about. Maybe even go so far as to use the Living Spell from Monster Manual III to make a Mists of Crowspeak monster (not really the Mists of Ravenloft, but a close approximation) that is a combination solid fog and maze in a single living spell.

Keeping with the misty theme, look into lacing the place with allips. The party is probably immune to Wisdom drain, but making them have to keep their defenses up all the time will be useful, and the burbling is creepy. More atmosphere.

Shadows and Greater Shadows everywhere serve a similar atmospheric purpose that also requires constant maintenance of the standard defenses. They don't even have to be serious fights individually. Just dozens of encounters a day ensures that the party has to use long-lasting defenses or run out.

It's stretching the rules, but if you argue that a treant has a "skeletal system," you can make zombie treants with animate dead.

For whatever form of mobile foliage you use, don't use it so much as a combat encounter. Use it, instead, to reshape the environment. Trees and brush move about to create false trails, or obscure trails they once followed. Combined with the thick fog, it makes navigation a nightmare.

Air elementals that dwell up above the woods can create gale-force winds. Again, don't use them as combat encounters if you can avoid it; the goal is to blow flying intruders around inside the thick, all-concealing fog so that even flying doesn't help them navigate. They have no point of reference, so can't tell how far off-course they've been blown. I believe there are templates in Libris Mortis for "necromentals," which are undead elementals of the 4 basic types.

An omnimental (MMIII again) is a living storm, essentially, and the occasional nasty rain can only make the haunted forest more unpleasant.

Again, look in Libris Mortis, this time at the feat "Mother Cyst," the various Necrotic spells, and the Skulking Cyst monster. A covey of hags led by one with 5th level spells and the Mother Cyst feat can have the animals of the forest laced with necrotic cysts, enabling them to scry everywhere, and can let them use Necrotic Eruption on the critters to turn them into fireball-like AoEs that do hideous, hard-to-heal damage. If the Skulking Cysts hanging like horrific fruit from the trees don't successfully implant necrotic cysts into the PCs, a few of these explosions probably will yield a failed safe or few.

Skulking Cysts are masters of stealth for their CR (which is very low compared to your party); the fog will help them further.

Clearings in the forest, shrouded in magical darkness, could spot the region. The magical darkness is a result of Black Sand (from Sandstorm) spread around. The cave entrance is in the heart of one such "clearing." Black Sand causes negative energy damage to anybody standing on it, and heals undead. Having some brutal undead that retreat to these or lure the party into them or just lurk therein could be effective misdirection, if not an actually threatening fight.

Yellow Musk Creepers spotting the forest also would be interesting. I think they're in Fiend Folio.

[hamishspence]

It's stretching the rules, but if you argue that a treant has a "skeletal system," you can make zombie treants with animate dead.


A zombie "needs to have a true anatomy" (at least according to the spell)- it's a skeleton that needs to "have bones":

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm


Skeletons
A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.

though the zombie template uses the phrase "skeletal system":

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm

I think the idea is that you can't cast animate dead on an elemental, or an ooze, to make a zombie.

Regular trees are usually described as having "anatomy" so it makes sense that treants would be the same - and therefore, be valid targets for animate dead. When I google "tree skeletal structure" and "skeletal structure of vascular plants" I get hits too.

[Thurbane]

I was going to suggest the Corpse Creature template in place of Zombie, but it specifically says it can't be applied to Plants.

If you're happy with an incorporeal Undead Treant, Disembodied Spirit (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030924a), Frostfell Ghost, Ghost and Ghost Brute all work on Plants (although Frostfell Ghost would be a bit out of place in most forests).

I believe Gravetouched Ghoul has a specific clause that Doresain can ignore the normal restrictions and apply it to pretty much anything he likes; although I'm struggling to find the page in Libris Mortis for a citation on this.

[hamishspence]

I believe Gravetouched Ghoul has a specific clause that Doresain can ignore the normal restrictions and apply it to pretty much anything he likes; although I'm struggling to find the page in Libris Mortis for a citation on this.

page 17, under Doresain's own description (Herald & Allies):

"Doresain often sends a gravetouched ghoul 13th-level barbarian as his herald. His planar allies are gravetouched ghoul succubus demons, gravetouched ghoul erinyes devils, and gravetouched ghoul ice devils. Doresain has the power to add the gravetouched ghoul template (see page 103) to creatures to which the template is normally not applicable."

[ShurikVch]

Rules for Lingering Effects of Evil (Book of Vile Darkness): at "A Great and Powerful Malevolence" level, for Locations, one of possible effects is:
• Evil weather develops.And for Evil Weather, one of possible variants is:
Rain of Blood: This horrible event can occur as part of a regular thunderstorm or all on its own. Blood pours down in thick drops for 2d10 minutes, coating everything in a dark red, sticky mess. Any living, nonevil creature in the area of a rain of blood must succeed at a Will save (DC 20) or take a –1 morale penalty on attack and damage rolls, checks, and saves for 24 hours. Corporeal undead gain a +1 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls, checks, and saves for 24 hours if they are in the area of the rain. A rain of blood covers 5d6 square miles.Use that blood as excuse for presence of Blood Amniotes, or any other blood-drinking Undead - such as Crimson Death or Skulking Cyst

In the Heroes of Horror, there are rules for Haunted Sites, and for Tainted Locations (which are could produce Tainted Minions)

[Falontani]

Rules for Lingering Effects of Evil (Book of Vile Darkness): at "A Great and Powerful Malevolence" level, for Locations, one of possible effects is:And for Evil Weather, one of possible variants is:Use that blood as excuse for presence of Blood Amniotes, or any other blood-drinking Undead - such as Crimson Death or Skulking Cyst

In the Heroes of Horror, there are rules for Haunted Sites, and for Tainted Locations (which are could produce Tainted Minions)

How many swarms of stirges can we pack into this area? They be weak, but pack in a few hundred thousand-millions of stirges as thick as mosquitoes and you have something scary. And leeches. Oh so many leeches.

[Segev]

The party hears the distant burbling of water. As they draw near, they see a stream, not really a river, flowing through the forest. But something seems off about it. The water too clear for how much the uneven streambed churns it. It cools the forest nearby, and a high spot check might notice frost forming on the shore in places.

If they touch it, the water is bone-chillingly cold, but doesn't wet anything. If they disturb it, it vanishes, as if sucked down an unseen drain. Then the water necromental arises. This is no stream; it is a dry, dead bed where once water flowed.

[Raven777]

Advanced Unicorn Lich (with class levels), riden by, oh, I dunno, Vampire Dryad Dread NecromancerThis might be the most metal thing i have read this year.