advice wanted regarding "anti mage" build

[skunk3]

I am starting a new campaign next week and long story short, there's going to be a lot of evil mages to be dealt with. Our party has a cleric, a wizard, and some sort of a beast master build. I decided to fill in the role of a rogue, except I wanted it to have heavy anti-mage flavor. Here is what I have come up with so far.

Race: Whisper Gnome

Classes: (Not necessarily in this order) Rogue 2 / Psychic Warrior 2 / Spellthief 11 / Occult Slayer 5.

ACF: Replace evasion with the ability to reflect spells a certain number of times per day. It's from Complete Mage. I will also be able to do this from the Occult Slayer PrC so I dunno if it would be extremely useful.

Planned feats: (in no particular order) (2 feats from psy war, 7 from leveling)

mage slayer
improved initiative
weapon focus (rapier)
weapon finesse
combat reflexes
silencing strike (racial)
extra silence (racial)
craven
deft opportunist


The silencing strikes seem pretty hilarious.

Are there any concerns that ya'll can see regarding this build? Gear wise I have a few items that I for sure want to get, especially the Rogue's Blade (because it's awesome) and the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis if my DM allows it. (Personally I think the item is seriously underpriced and she likely will as well.)

Any ideas/input?
the

[heavyfuel]

Are there any concerns that ya'll can see regarding this build?

Mage Slayer reduces the Caster Level of all spells and spell-like abilities by 4. This means not only your whisper gnome spell-like abilities, but also your Spellthief level. At lv 11, you'll have a CL of 1 (11/2-4), which doesn't allow you cast any of your Spellthief spells.

This can be partially solved by picking up Practiced Spellcaster, though your spell-like abilities will still suffer the -4.

[skunk3]

ah yes.. that might be why I had a note next to that feat saying "probably not"

staggering strike instead.

[Falontani]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23038695&postcount=3

Not exactly a rogue build, but an antimage build that I made just the other day! Might have something interesting that you may enjoy

[Anthrowhale]

Investing in Darkstalker seems look a good idea.

You may want to take Deep Impact to guarantee your Silencing Strike hits.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How hard do you caster?

If you're at bare-bones competent (starting casting stat 15, minimal metamagic, evocation figures prominently, etc) you can get away with a lot more wiggle room. What you've got is probably adequate for this level.

If you're at mid-op (starting stat over 15, some metamagic like rods or ultimate Magus, evocation and enchantment are used as needed but not primary schools, etc) then what you've built is workable but you're going to have to leverage your gear well. Alternately, pick either the psionicist or arcanist route and stick with it. You're just losing way too many caster levels as it stands.

If you're high-op (starting stat 18+, dmm shenanigans, you only pick gems from the least schools if you haven't banned them and even then go around the ban for the desired effects), the character you've outlined is a distraction for the enemies' minions. Trying to go toe-to-toe with primary casters is suicide unless conditions are near ideal.

Batman can only be threatened by a Joker.

So where are you at?

[Anthrowhale]

It doesn't fit well with this build, but Divine Prankster 5 has a fantastic anti-mage ability at levels 10-14. (At 15, mindblank kicks in.)

[Goaty14]

Batman can only be threatened by a Joker.

<insert snarky comment about how the joker is actually a bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker), and never actually gets 9th level spells>

I have nothing else to contribute to this conversation.

[Nifft]

<insert snarky comment about how the joker is actually a bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker), and never actually gets 9th level spells>

I have nothing else to contribute to this conversation.

Bard Joker: "Dragonfire Inspiration is how I watch the world burn."

[Ramza00]

Ready an action to cast silence not on a wizard but on the ground the wizard stands on is a no save I stop all verbal action spells. Use a wand to gain silence.

Ready an action to attack a wizard / spellcaster while they cast a spell forces them to do a concentration check to do the spell equal to the damage done.

Both of these tactics work a whole lot better with synchronicity psionic power for you can just choose for 3 pp to do any standard action at any trigger.

[skunk3]

How hard do you caster?

If you're at bare-bones competent (starting casting stat 15, minimal metamagic, evocation figures prominently, etc) you can get away with a lot more wiggle room. What you've got is probably adequate for this level.

If you're at mid-op (starting stat over 15, some metamagic like rods or ultimate Magus, evocation and enchantment are used as needed but not primary schools, etc) then what you've built is workable but you're going to have to leverage your gear well. Alternately, pick either the psionicist or arcanist route and stick with it. You're just losing way too many caster levels as it stands.

If you're high-op (starting stat 18+, dmm shenanigans, you only pick gems from the least schools if you haven't banned them and even then go around the ban for the desired effects), the character you've outlined is a distraction for the enemies' minions. Trying to go toe-to-toe with primary casters is suicide unless conditions are near ideal.

Batman can only be threatened by a Joker.

So where are you at?

It is going to be a mid-op game but the setting itself is going to be very 'age of legends' style with lots of planes jumping shenanigans and high magic. I have no doubt whatsoever that my character will be totally outclassed in later levels and only situationally useful in terms of combat, and I'm fine with that. I am primarily doing this because of the rp/flavor of it all. Never played anything like this guy.

As far as my casting goes, I'm barely going to do any. The spells that I steal as a spellthief are basically going to be used for ******* over any mages I come across. My own personal casting per day (from spellthief) might be used for little buffs or whatever else that can benefit me. I plan on basically playing this character as a stealthy / sneak attack rogue, but a rogue who has some nifty anti-magic skills.

The 2 levels of psychic warrior are only because I would like very limited access to a couple of abilities per day with no real drawback vs. a normal fighter. I plan on taking "compression" (to go to tiny size) as well as something else for my powers. It's only once per day so it's not a huge feature but still a nice little extra.

Weaknesses I plan on addressing with gear. The Rogue Blade is one thing that I definitely need to have as it will make me much, much more effective, especially with various weapon crystals that allow me to deal sneak attack damage to undead/constructs. My plan is to basically be as unobtrusive as possible and only act when I absolutely have to or when there's NPCs that have arcane abilities that I want to shut down. I plan on using Silencing Strike a lot and also relying on sneak attack plus various weapon enhancements to shut down casters and such. I will be a one trick pony so to speak, and even at that one trick it won't be amazing but it seems like fun to play.

[skunk3]

Investing in Darkstalker seems look a good idea.

You may want to take Deep Impact to guarantee your Silencing Strike hits.

Darkstalker would indeed be cool but I'd rather not give up any of the other feats that I have. Even with the extra 2 feats from Psy War I'm still going to have 9 feats to play with total since the DM isn't allowing flaws.

[skunk3]

Ready an action to cast silence not on a wizard but on the ground the wizard stands on is a no save I stop all verbal action spells. Use a wand to gain silence.

Ready an action to attack a wizard / spellcaster while they cast a spell forces them to do a concentration check to do the spell equal to the damage done.

Both of these tactics work a whole lot better with synchronicity psionic power for you can just choose for 3 pp to do any standard action at any trigger.

With silencing strike, if I hit a caster or anyone with verbal components to any spells or spell-like abilities they manifest, I can silence them for rounds = to my character level with no save. It's great at low levels and gets better and better at higher levels. With the extra silence feat I can do this 3 + CHA times per day. This shuts down a LOT of spells, including most teleportation spells and effects that allow them to get away. Meanwhile I'm stabbing them to death with a Rogue Blade doing sneak attack damage and also anything else I've added to that weapon. Mages be scared.

[ben-zayb]

What "Rogue" flavor are you eyeing, exactly? Beguiler base class from PHB2 and Unseen Seer prestige class from Complete Mage have very strong rogue themes that still allows you to protect yourself from powerful magic by... wait for it... also using powerful magic! Additionally, "Anti-Mage" seems like an abjuration deal, too, which is why I would also recommend taking levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

[skunk3]

What "Rogue" flavor are you eyeing, exactly? Beguiler base class from PHB2 and Unseen Seer prestige class from Complete Mage have very strong rogue themes that still allows you to protect yourself from powerful magic by... wait for it... also using powerful magic! Additionally, "Anti-Mage" seems like an abjuration deal, too, which is why I would also recommend taking levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

I absolutely love Beguilers but it just wasn't the flavor that I'm after. I don't want to be reliant on magic very much at all. Assuming I had 20 levels in, I'd have a global +5 to saves vs. anything magic from my classes plus whatever gear I have... most likely a +5 resistance item. On top of that I could have a stone of good luck plus the ioun stone that gives +1 to basically everything. That would be +12 to my saves, which means that a lot of spells simply aren't gonna work, plus I'll have several uses of spell turning, spell thieving, and silencing not counting any other effects I have from gear and weapon enhancements. The Occult Slayer powers granted at levels 4 and 5 would be extremely handy.

Alternatively, I was considering ditching Spellthief and going with Avenger instead for 8 levels for HIPS. That would leave me with 3 levels to play with and I have no idea what I'd use them for. If I went with Avenger I'd do more damage with sneak attacks but I'd lose out on a bit of casting, wouldn't be able to steal spells, etc. We don't start playing for another week so for now I'm just kinda trying to decide what would be best but ultimately it doesn't matter for now anyway since I don't have to make a real decision until at least level 5.

[Malroth]

https://i.imgur.com/TJH86z1.jpg

[Kelb_Panthera]

I absolutely love Beguilers but it just wasn't the flavor that I'm after. I don't want to be reliant on magic very much at all. Assuming I had 20 levels in, I'd have a global +5 to saves vs. anything magic from my classes plus whatever gear I have... most likely a +5 resistance item. On top of that I could have a stone of good luck plus the ioun stone that gives +1 to basically everything. That would be +12 to my saves, which means that a lot of spells simply aren't gonna work, plus I'll have several uses of spell turning, spell thieving, and silencing not counting any other effects I have from gear and weapon enhancements. The Occult Slayer powers granted at levels 4 and 5 would be extremely handy.

Alternatively, I was considering ditching Spellthief and going with Avenger instead for 8 levels for HIPS. That would leave me with 3 levels to play with and I have no idea what I'd use them for. If I went with Avenger I'd do more damage with sneak attacks but I'd lose out on a bit of casting, wouldn't be able to steal spells, etc. We don't start playing for another week so for now I'm just kinda trying to decide what would be best but ultimately it doesn't matter for now anyway since I don't have to make a real decision until at least level 5.

Hold on there, fella. Good saves are good to have but successful saves are hardly a spell not working unless it's just an AoE blast. If that's the angle you're after, you need mettle and evasion. You can get both over 5 levels with monk 2/ hexblade 3.

[skunk3]

Hold on there, fella. Good saves are good to have but successful saves are hardly a spell not working unless it's just an AoE blast. If that's the angle you're after, you need mettle and evasion. You can get both over 5 levels with monk 2/ hexblade 3.

I can also get both of those with a ring of evasion and a tabard of valor.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I can also get both of those with a ring of evasion and a tabard of valor.

Remind me where the tabard of valor is again? I'm thinking HoB.

I got this thread crossed with an E6 thread I also commented in. That's why I didn't mention the ring.

[Falontani]

Mettle + cha to saves against spells for 3 levels of hexblade.
Alternatively you can get mettle from iirc 3 levels in witch slayer from tome of magic.
Divine grace from paladin of tyranny is nice, alternatively turning into a nymph permanently somehow and taking assume supernatural ability can give you unearthly grace for cha to saves and deflection bonus to ac.

[Vizzerdrix]

Mettle + cha to saves against spells for 3 levels of hexblade.
Alternatively you can get mettle from iirc 3 levels in witch slayer from tome of magic.
Divine grace from paladin of tyranny is nice, alternatively turning into a nymph permanently somehow and taking assume supernatural ability can give you unearthly grace for cha to saves and deflection bonus to ac.

Add a level of battledancer for cha to ac again.

[skunk3]

Update:

My DM put the banhammer on Occult Slayer, which really sucks.

Also, I was thinking about it and I don't want to be a Whisper Gnome or any small race because of the smaller weapons. Our party needs some melee DPS.

Here is the revised build:

Human

Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Avenger 8 (or 9) / and the rest...?

I was originally thinking Spellthief but my DM said that she was going to make a change as to how the stealing ability works. Now, instead of dropping 1d6 from damage she is going to force me to reduce my total damage in half, rounded down if I want to steal something... which is stupid and limiting especially given the fact that we're going to have a powerful cleric and a powerful wizard in our party. I am by far going to be the weakest PC.

I was thinking about adding other levels in some sort of melee class, but I can't find anything that looks decent and has the kind of flavor that I want. I will also say that ToB classes are off of the table, which further limits my options.

My idea for now is basically going to be an Avenger-type character who uses a greatsword and spring attack to get in and out of situations... 2H using power attack / sneak attack whenever available. Also HIPS. I know that for a lot of people on the boards, that feat chain sucks but I know this DM and I know that spring attack would be super helpful.

I will have a total of 9 feats to play with by level 20, and here's my ideas thus far, not in any particular order:

craven
staggering strike
dodge
mobility
spring attack
power attack
darkstalker
throat punch?
concussion attack?
crippling strike?


The ones with question marks are just ideas.

So where would you go from here? I do care about my BAB progression but also I really need something to bolster my will saving throws. I was thinking of maybe Artificer since it's usually highly recommended. Exactly how and why are they good, and would this benefit my character?

Looking for any ideas. Thanks!

[Pyromancer999]

You can always go Witchslayer. It's got full BAB and some decent anti-magic abilities, plus Mettle as mentioned previously in the thread.

Warblade & Diamond Mind can be good for saves, even as a dip, though have only skimmed the thread and don't knoe your opinions on ToB.

[ericgrau]

Ah good you ditched the two bad feats I was about to complain about. Moving on. Throat punch has the same problem as one of them; once you finally hit a foe with a sneak attack he's probably dead soon anyway. Ditto crippling strike and concussion attack. If you want anything anti-magic you want more prevention. Bolstering your saves was a good suggestion.

I'd simply go with an archer and readied actions to disrupt spellcasting. A magebane bow or magebane arrows (in case only part of foes are mages) would be nice if you start at high enough level. Or at least a +1 bow to defeat protection from arrows. For windwall you simply hit the mage first or walk through the wall. Though both spells are a bit meta if your DM starts spamming them, so possibly you won't ever see them at all. Or else it means the mages are all burning lots of resources on only partly impeding only one party member which is still a win. With some work towards a basic volley archer you can also get the raw damage decent enough to drop mages in a more straightforward way.

Alternatively rely on your caster buddies for the special stuff and simply pile on enough raw melee damage to drop the mages' low HP. Since you said the party needed melee damage. Sometimes you'll get obstacles but that's what your buddies are for. Though if you can get swift fly and see invisibility from gishing that helps. The key is actually hitting them. Or volley archer + rely on caster buddies for special stuff. Easier to land hits. Less damage, but still decent enough.

I'm not sure you need spring attack if most of your foes are ranged. And I don't see what it does against BFC spells. But it might be nice to drop one foe and then immediately corner another foe. To spring in and spring in rather than in and out, so to speak. Especially with reach and a good move speed.

[Darrin]

Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Avenger 8 (or 9) / and the rest...?


Rogue 3 gets you the Penetrating Strike ACF (either from Dungeonscape or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). Rogue 4 gets you another +1d6 sneak attack. Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF (Drow of the Underdark) gets you Dex bonus on damage against flat-footed enemies.



I was thinking about adding other levels in some sort of melee class, but I can't find anything that looks decent and has the kind of flavor that I want. I will also say that ToB classes are off of the table, which further limits my options.


Nightsong Enforcer (Complete Adventuer), maybe?



I will have a total of 9 feats to play with by level 20, and here's my ideas thus far, not in any particular order:

craven
staggering strike
dodge
mobility
spring attack
power attack
darkstalker
throat punch?
concussion attack?
crippling strike?


You want a Spring Attack build but are not taking Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz (PHBII)?

Friends don't let friends take vanilla Dodge. Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild) works better with Spring Attack. Midnight Dodge (Magic of Incarnum) is one of the other Dodge-equivalents, although if your DM can't handle ToB then it's probably not fair to throw in some Incarnum.

Also, Elusive Target (Complete Warrior) is the apology for being forced to take Dodge/Mobility.

Consider adding Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) for save vs. stagger.



So where would you go from here? I do care about my BAB progression but also I really need something to bolster my will saving throws. I was thinking of maybe Artificer since it's usually highly recommended. Exactly how and why are they good, and would this benefit my character?


You know all those forum stories about how wizards break D&D by casting all those spells that make the rest of the party feel like useless bystanders? Artificers can do all that before breakfast... by crafting infusions, which they give to the rest of the party, who can now all break D&D along with the artificer. You want a vorpal sword, but don't want to pay for a +5 enhancement bonus on a weapon? Talk to your artificer before bedtime, and in the morning he'll have a vorpal sword ready for you... no no, don't worry about payment, he's just using one of his class abilities. A well-played artificer = Washu (http://tenchi.wikia.com/wiki/Washu_Hakubi) on steroids.

Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) progresses sneak attack, spellcasting, and has good Will saves. Once you get 3rd level spells, Abjurant Champion (same book) is an option, and also has good Will saves.

[ericgrau]

You want a Spring Attack build but are not taking Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz (PHBII)?

Oh wow, if I'm reading these correctly you are basically getting something better than pounce from two feats, plus 3 pre-req feats.

Maybe this, plus high speed, plus a basic melee build, plus high reach, plus mage slayer could be the way to go. High damage and making casting difficult.

Maybe find a way to sneak in swift fly and see invisibility too, though that might require gishing and another feat.

[Vizzerdrix]

Why spring attack? Why not just grab travel devotion a few times instead?

[ericgrau]

Why spring attack? Why not just grab travel devotion a few times instead?
Move, attack, move, attack, move, attack, move is much better than move, attack, attack, attack against low AC low HP targets. Especially when exploiting reach. Next step is to pump speed and damage enough to one shot more often. And to get close enough to all the targets, including the reach blocked one(s).

EDIT: I just remembered the name of another handy feat: pierce magical concealment. That and a super pumped listen check (to determine a concealed creature's square) will get you through a lot of concealing effects. With a source of non-action or swift action flight you'll deal with 90% of obstacles, and then your caster buddies can handle the rest. It works even better if you have your caster buddies intentionally drop concealment on top of you and the baddies. Sleet storm will do this and disrupt their casting from being a weather effect. BFC, disrupt casting, and unleash a nasty hidden death ninja (you) all in one spell. Only drawback is that while you get nice full attacks without miss chance I think you still don't get AoOs for your reach.

[Arcanist]

Remind me where the tabard of valor is again? I'm thinking HoB.

Complete Champion, page 142, 16,000gp. Grants Mettle when at half your HP. Ideally, you'll never want it to trigger.

[daremetoidareyo]

Pimp out your sleight of hand and steal their spell component pouches. master pickpocket from city of stormreach is your friend.

[Mike Miller]

An anti-mage build? Of course, you need Forsaker!

[skunk3]

Another update:

My DM is kinda making me pull my hair out. We had another meeting last night to finalize some ideas and ask questions.

She told me last night that she:

1. Will not allow the "hit-and-run" fighter ACF
2. Will not allow me to take the "Craven" feat
3. Will not allow me to take the "Darkstalker" feat
4. Will allow me to be able to learn and use skill tricks
5. Will not allow me to use the Abjurant Champion prestige class (because I was toying around with later gishing a bit)
6. She has (as mentioned before) said that she will allow Spellthief but she's nerfing it quite a bit
7. Will allow the 'mage slayer' line of feats but they have minor nerfs, and tbh 3 feats is something I probably can't spare.

So here's the updated idea:

Human

Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Avenger 8 (or 9) / ?

From there I have no idea. I can't find anything that seems all that great. Dread Commando doesn't seem terrible but it doesn't seem all that great either. Dervish might be okay, I guess. Shadowdancer would be kinda cool except for the fact that most of the good class abilities that it grants I'd already have via my Rogue and Avenger levels. I have no idea what to take. Fortune's Friend? (Would require 1 luck feat, which isn't too bad, I suppose.)


Feat-wise I know that I will be taking these for sure:

-dodge
-mobility
-spring attack
-power attack (I'll be using a 2h weapon)
-bounding assault

Some "maybe" feat ideas:

-rapid blitz
-staggering strike
-combat reflexes
-some luck feat

I will have a total of 10 feats to select by level 20, so I need some ideas here too. Obviously, this character is moving away from a dedicated "anti-mage" build into more of a typical roguish character. Thanks!

[Darrin]

I dunno, this DM sounds so restrictive, it looks like you might have better luck with a Rogue 1/Druidzilla 19. Rip a few druid-sized holes in her campaign, then maybe have a more honest discussion with her about "game balance".

[skunk3]

Yeah, it's really annoying because she is banning all the crap I wanna take but she gave our cleric the thumbs up to take Radiant Servant. :eye roll:

She would definitely shut down a Druidzilla, plus I hate playing Druids anyway.

[Gusmo]

Complete Champion, page 142, 16,000gp. Grants Mettle when at half your HP. Ideally, you'll never want it to trigger.

You could just make continuous UMD checks to keep it active. Minimally, the activate blindly option would work. Investing in UMD is pretty good all on its own.

[Nifft]

Can you ask this DM to give you a list of stuff that is allowed, instead of doing the request-ban-suffer cycle?

I'll fifth the idea of Druid, they're awesome.

Are you human(-ish)? Can you take Chameleon after Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Rogue +1 maybe?

[ericgrau]

Feat-wise I know that I will be taking these for sure:

-dodge
-mobility
-spring attack
-power attack (I'll be using a 2h weapon)
-bounding assault

Some "maybe" feat ideas:

-rapid blitz
-staggering strike
-combat reflexes
-some luck feat

If you do get rapid blitz then power attack becomes pretty bad unless you add a way to negate the attack penalty. Even with only bounding assault it's bad once you reliably get your 2nd attack. You'll do more damage if your secondaries hit (and PA will negate your primary sometimes too).


Yeah, it's really annoying because she is banning all the crap I wanna take but she gave our cleric the thumbs up to take Radiant Servant. :eye roll:
I'm confused why she'd ban the ACF, though I can kinda see some of the others. And yeah, your build is far from crazy.

What's so bad about Radiant Servant of Pelor? The pre-reqs are low I guess. The biggest boost I could see was to cure spells, and 3 levels after the first boost you get heal anyway. Turns destroy more often, but 90% of the time fleeing undead is as good as destroyed anyway because 10 rounds later his buddies are gone. Even if he's strong and still a threat by himself (and yet somehow got turned) the party buffs up for a few rounds. The only time it sucks is if the fleeing undead keeps running away with his loot and doesn't return. It's hard for me to see what's so borked, at least compared to cleric 20.

[skunk3]

Well, Druid is definitely not happening. I hate playing them and it doesn't fit the vision that I have for this character.

I've done a lot of thinking and this is what I am considering:

rogue 2 / fighter 2 / avenger 9 / avenging executioner 5 / rogue 1 / dread commando 1

The main 2 things that I don't like about this build is less-than-stellar BAB and horrible will saves, but it will have decent sneak attack / sudden strike dice.

The feats that I plan on taking 'for sure' so far:

dodge
mobility
spring attack
power attack
bounding assault
staggering strike
master of poisons


I still have three picks available. I might go with rapid blitz but a feat just to be able to take a 3rd attack while spring attacking at a -10 penalty doesn't seem worth it unless I'm fighting very easy-to-hit things. Sacred Strike looks great but there's no way in hell she will allow it.