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View Full Version : Feedback with players: when are you being too invested as a DM?



guileus
2018-05-04, 11:28 AM
I've got the feeling that the campaign my friends and I have been playing for a year and a half is slowly grinding to a halt. I'm also experiencing, not DM burnout, but more like "there is no appreciation for the time and effort I put into it". Is it common with other fellow DMs?

It's sometimes difficult for us to meet and I at times feel like I'm "pushing it", asking in our text message group and getting no answer or very vague ones etc. And this makes it difficult for me to prepare things because I usually have a very busy weekend, so for example on Thursadys my schedule is 8:30 to 14, and then from 16:30 to 21. That means that if I don't know if we're playing on Wednesday the latest, I'm not going to be able to have it ready, get all the NPCs prepared, read the module etc. (We're playing a heavily modified Adventure Path, to the point that it's basically just tangentially similar to it). So it really annoys me when I ask, on Tuesday, if we're playing, and don't get an answer until Thursday evening. We're all older (30s) than the teenage years when we were able to play whenever we wanted, but it's not not being able to make it that irks me, it's the feeling that some people might think "hmm, I'll see what's up for the weekend and if nothing pops up I'll say yeah let's play".

Now, that wouldn't be such a problem if I hadn't been so invested in the game. I've basically written a blog from scratch detailing the campaign, I've even asked you guys on some threads how to deal with some stuff, created another chat group with friends that can't play anymore so I can ask them what would bad NPCs do in reaction to player moves to better let me roleplay them, printed handbooks I've bought online to bring to the table... I even printed and plastified a color hex map of the lands they are conquering in the campaign so that they can draw and write with a marker on it and detail their progress (the campaign as a kingdom building thing in it). So yeah, I'm getting that "I'm very busy during the week but I put a LOT of work into having something that brings us together and makes us have fun... and I don't ask much in return, just a bit of appreciation for the work and some feedback".

Now, don't get me wrong, these guys are my friends and I know they are not doing anything on purpose to annoy me. But I guess I just want to know how can I let them know about the work I put in the game and that the lack of feedback is kind of taking the excitement away from me, without sounding like I'm whining. We haven't played for three weeks because some of them had commitments (it kind of sucked they let me know on Friday but well). So last week I asked if we were playing that Friday. I asked on Tuesday. Asked again on Wednesday. No answer. Then on Thursday I messaged the one player that's always up for playing and asked him to mention the topic again on the chat group, as I didn't want to sound like I was asking for a third time with no reply. He asked and there were some answers but there was still this guy who would say the days when he could NOT play. When I asked him "OK, you can't play on Saturday... can you say the days you're free, so we can accommodate?". He said that he was waiting for him to be told "if he was available", but didn't say anything on Friday or Saturday. Then on Sunday he asks if we're playing and I reply "Well, I can't prepare it on the same day's notice, that's why I asked in advance" and he only replied "OK".

The one guy who's always up for playing also complains about the rest of players, but I just would like to know how to approach the issue. I haven't mentioned anything in the group because I was waiting to see if anyone would ask if we were playing but no one did. I just don't know if I ask again I will come off as pushy or if I don't say anything it will come off as passive agressive and months later when the campaign is buried they will tell me that they were waiting for me to tell them when to meet since I'm the DM.

Seclora
2018-05-04, 11:51 AM
Damn, I feel for you.

I think the best thing to do is to just sit everyone down and talk to them about it. Explain what your expectations are, and ask them what they want from the campaign. Maybe you need a regular schedule so you all don't have to go back and forth about scheduling, maybe just once a week and you all agree on a time and day and take the time off, if that's possible. Maybe some players, it sounds like you know which ones, aren't going to be able to make every session, and you'll need to plan for what their character does without them.

Maybe things won't work at all, and you might want to find new players, or run smaller campaigns until people's schedules normalize.


I've been running one campaign for nearly two years now, biweekly. We're taking this month off because people have work, finals, my daughter is getting a tonsilectomy, and there's a wedding. Things come up, life is messy, but if people are willing to communicate, things will work. If they aren't willing to communicate, there's really nothing to be done about it but move on.

Pelle
2018-05-04, 11:57 AM
It definitely seems like you are putting in more effort than is appreciated. It's up to you if it is worth it. Just talk about it, and find out what they like. If people don't really care, try to look for a way to finish the campaign in a satisfying way.

Finding time as an adult is difficult, just accept that a game wont be prioritized. IME it is easier to have a regular game on monday-thursdays. Some people will always have other plans in the weekends.

It might also help to find a better format for your games. Long epic quests, requiring all players attending and remembering all details, are a bad choice. Try a structure where a new plot is resolved every session, and only the characters of the players attending will participate. Then you can just announce the day you play, and people will show up if they want. If you struggle getting enough people you can require announcing the attendance in advance, but will require a lot of enforcing. If people are flaky, just stop inviting them.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-05-04, 12:31 PM
Personally I need games that exist regularly at a regular time. Obviously emergencies can come up from time to time and that's fine, but I expect people to show up at the set time at least 75% of the time and if they can't do that, either because they have hectic lives, or because they're flaky and put a low priority on the game, then we're not compatible players.

Quertus
2018-05-04, 10:41 PM
Hmmm... I come from a background where the game time is set, and you play with whatever subset of players can show up, assuming you meet a minimal threshold. Exceptions made for specific circumstances.

But, the reason I posted was that, IMO, being invested the way you are is a good thing.

RazorChain
2018-05-05, 12:00 AM
Yes I agree with Quertus, being invested is a good thing.

Which is why I must break it to you that your players aren't invested except that one guy.

Invested players move mountains to get to play, a dedicated roleplayer will draft his firstborn into play to get his fix. This I know from experience as my old group is made from dedicated roleplayers and all of us have been playing for more than 30 years and gaming is a passion of ours, our friendship is built around gaming and then there was this intermarriage...ehem...I'm married to the sister of one of the group....and he's married to a sister of another one in the group so we're practically family now. But boy does it give us leverage! "Hey...your sister isn't happy about me coming to play on friday, can you negotiate on my part?"

Invested players don't want to miss a game, for them it's like being a sports fan and not being able to attend THE GAME! I don't know what you can do if your players aren't able to muster up enthusiasm for your sessions. But at least you can discuss it with them, is gaming just a reason to hang out for them or do they really want to play?

Darth Ultron
2018-05-05, 12:05 AM
Yes, this is very, very, very, very common.

1.As an Invested DM you should only play the game with Invested Players.
2.There ARE players who will be at least as Invested in the game as you.
3.Those Players might not just randomly be your best friends.

Just as Bob is your best friend in the world, does not mean he wants to play the game with the same level of investment that you do. But there Are players like that: you just need to find them. So, if you have a more Casual group of friends, that want to run a Casual Game....then you want to run a Casual game for them. Everyone is happy. But now you still have your want of an invested game. So what you do, is start a second game. Find some good, invested players...and game on.

If people really want to play a Invested game: they will make it happen. Over the years I've done things like:

*Thursday all niter: With everyone having ''no free time" we started a game Thursdays 1 am to 4am. So no sleep on Thursdays for us as we wanted to game...and other people don't bother us, as they are all asleep.

*Weekend Mornings: playing 6am to 8am on both Saturday and Sunday. Again, nicely, with the rest of the world that would bother us asleep.

*Hour a day: Sometime between 5 and 7 pm mostly. A quick hour of episodic gaming, then too be continued.

As the above shows, people that want to will find a way/make a way to game.

Aotrs Commander
2018-05-05, 03:19 PM
I have some sympathy. I have a fairly large group (seven players currently, and it was nine before a couple had to back out because they really couldn't garentee they could make it regularly, sadly), but for the last year or so, we've only had about four managing to make to the club (the wargames club where we hold our weekly sessions) week-to-week. We even have had a couple of players come and go; one because he wasn't really that invested, another because he felt that he had to understand all of the rules and that 3.x was just too much time investment to leanrreverything, but they at least helped us run for a bit. Of our three most-absent, one player is very busy with police work and young family (four kids, two under four), one has been working three jobs and then been... Really quite ill, to the point we didn;t really know how bad until afterwards. The last one, poor chap, suffers from a terrible string of bad luck; if it's not one thing, it's another that often means he has to call off, to his disgust (since in said year, he's changed jobs, lives much closer and in all normal probability should be able to make it much more often, but reality keeps kicking him in the shins...)

(Notably, all three of these players have been playing with me for just under thirty, a bit under twenty and somewhere between twenty and thirty years respectively; of the remaining group of regulars, two date back from before I joined their group, one has been playing for a good twenty years with us and the other is a relative (and keen) newcomer with only about five or six years.)

And yes, organising the four-annually day sessions (which include players who live too far or can't make our weekly session in the player base) often feels like herding cats and getting blood out of a stone at times as well.

So yes, OP, I do indeed feel sympathy.

Thrudd
2018-05-06, 03:11 PM
I know what this is like, it seems pretty common for adult gaming groups. My solution is to choose the system and design the game around the assumption that people will be flaky or can't come consistently. Pick days and times that most people say they will be able to make most of the time, that work for you. Prepare for sessions at those times, no matter what. Whoever shows up, run a session for them (if there are enough people). Your game should be able to support there potentially being a different mix of characters every session, including occasional new or one-time drop-ins (so spouses, SOs or visitors can join in when they feel like it). You can have a rewarding experience hosting a fun time for people without the stress of worrying that everyone else isn't dedicating themselves to it the same way you do.

tensai_oni
2018-05-06, 09:21 PM
Have you talked to your players about this?

If not, you should. This is exactly the kind of problem that is solved by everyone talking to each other like mature adults you are. Explain to them that you are putting a lot of effort into this and their flakiness makes it hard to schedule games while also making you feel unappreciated. It could be that they don't consider the game to be as high priority as you do, or maybe they didn't realize this was an issue - unless you talk to them, you won't know.

guileus
2018-05-07, 03:41 AM
Thanks for all the feedback, feels nice to get some in contrast to what happens in the game 😁.

We arranged to play on Saturday at last. I'll sit down with them five minutes before the game and explain the whole thing. I'll also cut back on the investment in the game (for example I like keeping a blog log, but will summarize each session instead of trying to tell everything). I love it, but I'd rather keep playing it and not burn out than just keep getting annoyed. Will propose a fixed day, if not weekly, every other weekend so we can have a regular schedule.

Incorrect
2018-05-07, 05:23 AM
My personal experience is that you will not be able to change the players perspective or have them invest more in the game. You probably think about the game every day, I would guess that your players only think about it on the game day.

When you feel like this, trust me, its time to change something. Before you burn out and just stop playing.
My advice would be to scrap your work-intensive campaign, or at least bring it back to the prewritten adventure. Dont spend a lot of time preparing, just run basic stuff.

Try to make your games episodic. Each session has a beginning and an end, so if one player dont show up, he just isnt in that episode.

Find a specific day and time to play, always stick to this schedule. With time that day will become a part of the players rutine.

What do your players enjoy the most? Being together as a group of friends? Rolling dice? Following the story?
Identify this aspect and find change your own perspective to enjoy being a part of that specific play style.
Again a personal note, in my experience players dont know what they want, so identify the main aspect based on your own experience.

Cespenar
2018-05-07, 05:52 AM
Also to add, if you manage to get answers from all the group but one, try to suggest that you could meet nonetheless "for continuity's sake" and you could NPC him/her for this week.

Also, always be on the lookout for any enthusiastic "friends of the friends" who would like to join in. One's old group is a familiar and comfortable thing to rest on, but you'd be surprised how quickly you could make new friends over RPGs.

Pelle
2018-05-07, 06:19 AM
I feel like I have been in a relatable situation, since I just wrapped up my campaign that has been running 1.5 years. That was mainly because I will soon have a lot less time myself, my players have been very positive. However, I have definitely spent much more effort than the players. I have for example kept a log after every session, mainly for my own to remember and be consistent. Now it's 100 pages of text. I don't think the players will read it, but I enjoyed doing it so that made it worth it for me. If you love it, and like doing it, don't worry, but be aware that you are doing it for yourself.

I have had 7 players, with maybe 4-5 making it each session. It can be a hassle to organize, but that's understandable and how it is with adults. So for my games in the future those limitations will be taken into account for the structure of the games. More one-shots and single session contained story archs, without needing every character present.