Getting the Most out of a Spellslinger / Arcanist / Arcane Trickster?

[Blind_Prophet]

Hey guys, first off ill start by saying im well aware that Arcane trickster is not a very optimal class but ive always wanted to play one and the introduction of Arcanist has solved my brain freeze on whether to go wizard or sorc since it takes the best parts of both casting styles (choosing your spells from a spellbook daily AND casting them spontaneously)

So that said I am having some issues making all the "pieces" fit together...those pieces being:

- Is an Arcanist (or something that casts the same way)
- Uses a Gun (pref with a rifle look, musket for example)
- Has something like the magus's "spellstrike" (hence spellslinger)
- NO 3rd party or 3.5 stuff, including minimal fluff changes of classes or archetypes (cause DM says so)
- Has a "detective" or "investigative reporter" feel (has no issue with turning invisible and sneaking into a castle to report on what really happens,etc., might take snoop archetype for rogue)
- Has abilities that make it easier to SA with ranged attacks...increased range and fulfilling the trigger for SA (ie. Ninja's Vanishing trick or being able to make opponents flat-footed somehow) without relying on specific magic items.
- Preferably a small race...both personal pref and the +4 to stealth is helpful. Thinking Ratfolk atm but listed a few others....Aasimar might work fluff wise...no one suspects the angel of being a snoop.
- Get into Arcane trickster fairly low level (pref by 9th) but make good use of the classes used to get there so 1) its not boring and 2) its not a waste.
- Has a good array of touch, cone, line, blast and ray spells

ATM I'm looking at SS Wiz1/Arc4-5/Rogue2-3/ATX and based on my notes (shown below) I don't think I have enough feats/talents to take everything id like and its hurting my brain.

Spellslinger Wizard1/Snoop U-Rogue2-3/Arcanist 4-5/Arcane TricksterX/maybe EvangelistX
Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Accomplished Sneak Attackerx?,Rapid Reload, Extra Exploitsx?, Extra Talentsx?, Focused Shot
Arcanist Exploits: Quick Study, School Understanding (Admixture), Consume Magic Items, Dimensional Slide
Rogue Talents: Ki Pool, Vanishing Trick & Deadly Range
Investigator Talents: Mutagen, Greater Mutagen,Amazing Inspiration
Traits: Magical Knack & Pragmatic Activator
Stats: Int>Dex>Wis>Cha=Con>Str
Races: Elf, Ratfolk, Humans, Peri-Aasimar, Daemon-Tiefling, Sylph, Android, Wyrwood, Wayangs.

...and the rest of my random musings...

Arcane tricksters (maybe arcane archer as well...oh nvm specifies arrows)

Rogue or Vivi Alchemist/Wizard or Sorc Sage (check out archetypes for more flavour)
Ninja/Sorc
Ninja/Eldritch Scion Magus
Bard? (sandman steal spell could be fun)
eldritch scoundrel rogue possibly
caster vmc rogue

accomplished sneak attack?

arcane trickster -> evangelist? (not sure if i want any divine connection)

Vivi+??? Alchy3 or Steel hound+empiricist Invest4/Sage+??? Sorc4, ??? arcanist 4 or ??? wizard3 VMC Magus -> AT10/AA2 (prescient attacks is key!) (Gun?) Dex/Int Primary,, still maybe fit coconut evangelist in there.

Slayer

Card Caster or Eldritch Archer+Kensai Magus/Vivi Alchy or Empiricist Invest or Steel Hound Empiricist/AT1/Evangelist10/AA...maybe vmc sorc.

Spellslinger wizard/rogue type? (or ssw1/otherarcane/roguetype)

musket
oil of silence
Nokizaru Ninja (on the cha caster side, no SA)

Sniper Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (can use spell slots for ki points so can use vanish)
School Understanding (Admixture)

sanctified slayer?

Harm/Inflict?
Blood Arcanist School Savant
spell-specialist
Accomplished Sneak Attacker
Guile? (kitsune trickster)
Spellslinger Exploiter wizard?
false priest?
mystery cultist?
technomancer?
veiled illusionist?

So uh yeah could use some help with my build plans :D

[JerichoPenumbra]

I'd say first off, make a hard-line decision of what you want to actually be and how you want to do it. Your musings seem to be all over the place, which since they're musings, is fair. But with the list of what you want to do does somewhat interfere with one another, particularly the "make good use of the classes used to get there so 1) its not boring and 2) its not a waste" clause.

You have options, it's just whether or not the options are appealing to you. Earliest entry for Arcane Trickster is 5th level (Rogue 1/Wizard 3 with the accomplished sneak attack feat, first level of AT at 5th) {prereqs for AT were reduced in the conversion to PF}. Going into effectively a dual advancement prestige class when most people are still trying meet prereq's without cheese for others is nice, and while not necessarily optimal it should be useful since you'll only be one level behind in casting, putting you on par with a single classed sorcerer if you continue to only go straight arcane trickster. If you really want Spellstrike, I suggest the Eldritch Archer archetype for Magus for the two level dip. Despite the name you don't have to use a bow and is specialized in (read: can only use) ranged spells with Spellstrikes, which can be used with any ranged weapon.

Arcanist makes things a bit tricky since one hand they combine the best aspects of casting from Sorc&Wiz as you mentioned, but the flip side is that it also combines the worst; Wizard spells per day, dependency on a spellbook, on a Sorcerer based casting progression, with a sorcerer's spells known. As you advance the lower level spells become a bit more versatile since you don't have to prepare repeats, but the higher level spells will still more or less have the same restrictions as using Sorc or Wiz. When I say this I mean in relative relation to your character level i.e. a 10th level character's low level spells are 1 & 2, mid level is 3, and higher level are 4 & 5. For a character of that level, they could (and probably should) have between 5-7 spells per day to each of their low levels. The high level spells tend to usually only have 1-2 known in the beginning, the only major difference is how many they have per day. Also, since you are multiclassing a lot and not progressing that much in arcanist one of the main pulls i.e. exploits, are not going to be that useful since they're based on class level, not caster level or character level. Use if you want it exclusively for the style of spellcasting, do what'll be fun for you.

Either case, you're playing an Int-based spellcaster which will translate out to be more skill points, and the rogue dip will give you a sizable collection of class skills to receive bonuses on which means that you'll be able to sneak and steal just fine. Finally, regarding more ways to get sneak attack, there are the classic invisibility variations as you are aware, but also the oft forgotten Grease spell. There where some slight hiccups in the translation between 3.5 and PF, but if a creature is trying to use balance their way across something they are considered flat-footed. If the enemy stands still (not move out of a square) then it doesn't need to make a check and doesn't loose it's dex, but it didn't move for a round and is now likely being flanked by your allies.

Good Luck.

[Blind_Prophet]

I'm gonna break up and rearrange your response to make it easier to respond to specific things.



Your musings seem to be all over the place, which since they're musings, is fair.

I should clarify about this, i literally copy-pasted all my original ideas which only had the requirement of "be an arcane trickster" i was just trying to get my thought process across



You have options, it's just whether or not the options are appealing to you. Earliest entry for Arcane Trickster is 5th level (Rogue 1/Wizard 3 with the accomplished sneak attack feat, first level of AT at 5th) {prereqs for AT were reduced in the conversion to PF}. Going into effectively a dual advancement prestige class when most people are still trying meet prereq's without cheese for others is nice, and while not necessarily optimal it should be useful since you'll only be one level behind in casting, putting you on par with a single classed sorcerer if you continue to only go straight arcane trickster.

Oh I know that "fastest" entry isn't really a concern just was aiming to be in by 9th level but of course id like to avoid hurting my spellcasting as little as possible and accomplished sneak attacker made me so happy when i found it making rogue1 the minimum for the sneak attack req which was fine but evasion is really nice and rogue talent-> Ninja talent: vanishing trick is very potent for AT)



If you really want Spellstrike, I suggest the Eldritch Archer archetype for Magus for the two level dip. Despite the name you don't have to use a bow and is specialized in (read: can only use) ranged spells with Spellstrikes, which can be used with any ranged weapon.

I did already look into that but spellslinger is only a single level for something very similar to eldritch archer.

"A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts through the arcane gun, the gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the attack rolls or to the spell’s saving throw DCs."

One idea I had was Kensai+Eldritch Archer Magus7/Rogue1-2/ATX Dex & Int are my prime stats anyways so my AC and initiative will be rocking which is great for a spellcaster and it would help out my martial abilities BUT it's only 6th level casting, much more limited spell list especially with kensais penalty to it and of course magus are prepared casters (my preference being arcanist>spontaneous>prepared)


Arcanist makes things a bit tricky but if you want it exclusively for the style of spellcasting, do what'll be fun for you.

Especially with the quick study exploit



I'd say first off, make a hard-line decision of what you want to actually be and how you want to do it But with the list of what you want to do does somewhat interfere with one another, particularly the "make good use of the classes used to get there so 1) its not boring and 2) its not a waste clause."

I'm confused with this...are you saying i cant make a AT without having the first few levels be boring/a waste?




dependency on a spellbook


I've seen people say this alot but ive never understood why...can you try to explain it to me?



Wizard spells per day, , on a Sorcerer based casting progression, with a sorcerer's spells known.

That i get definitely isn't ideal but all my other ideas were either only 6th level casters (eldritch scoundrel, magus, bard,etc.) or required me to really cut into my spellcasting and slow down my entry to AT as well so i figured it was better than that.




Since you are multiclassing a lot and not progressing that much in arcanist one of the main pulls i.e. exploits, are not going to be that useful since they're based on class level, not caster level or character level.

Am I wrong that I cant just take the extra exploits feat...aside from school understanding: admixture and quick study nothing really jumped out at me.




Either case, you're playing an Int-based spellcaster which will translate out to be more skill points, and the rogue dip will give you a sizable collection of class skills to receive bonuses on which means that you'll be able to sneak and steal just fine.


Yeah the giant ball of skill points is quite useful and yeah i don't really need to be an investigator to be one in-game especially since that class kinda blows until level 4 anyways which is why i dropped that idea pretty quickly.



Finally, regarding more ways to get sneak attack, there are the classic invisibility variations as you are aware, but also the oft forgotten Grease spell. There where some slight hiccups in the translation between 3.5 and PF, but if a creature is trying to use balance their way across something they are considered flat-footed. If the enemy stands still (not move out of a square) then it doesn't need to make a check and doesn't loose it's dex, but it didn't move for a round and is now likely being flanked by your allies.


Hmmm...didn't know grease did that, noted...that said the main advantage to vanishing trick is the fact thats its a swift action and wont burn a spell slot.

[JerichoPenumbra]

I did already look into that but spellslinger is only a single level for something very similar to eldritch archer.

"A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts through the arcane gun, the gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the attack rolls or to the spell’s saving throw DCs."

One idea I had was Kensai+Eldritch Archer Magus7/Rogue1-2/ATX Dex & Int are my prime stats anyways so my AC and initiative will be rocking which is great for a spellcaster and it would help out my martial abilities BUT it's only 6th level casting, much more limited spell list especially with kensais penalty to it and of course magus are prepared casters (my preference being arcanist>spontaneous>prepared)

I will say that my opinion about the Kensai archetype is that it's very good, but also a bit overrated. Also the difference that I was thinking in mind is that the Spellslinger's shtick is do one thing at a time (spell or shoot), while Eldritch Archer's shtick is shoot and cast a spell in a turn. There being a potential to do some more burst sneak attack damage using potentially less resources. The downside to going Magus I admit is that your BAB will be shot, so anything that isn't an AoE or touch attack would probably whiff.

So what I'm seeing is that likely you'll be going SSW 1/Rogue 1-3/Arcanist 3/Arcane Trickster X, correct?



I'm confused with this...are you saying i cant make a AT without having the first few levels be boring/a waste?

Not quite. Dual advancement prestige classes in general tend to shine the most after getting a couple of levels, usually at the break even point. Which in this case I mean; the point where to have roughly equal abilities by multiclassing in base classes you'd have to be higher level than you are currently. Usually 3-4 levels+, if not nearly double in level. Until then you won't quite always be up to par in comparison to a single leveled person in raw power. You'll have more guns so to speak, they'll just have a bigger gun. Eventually, your guns won't be that much smaller than theirs, and you'll have more than them.

That said, starting level of the game changes whether or not things will feel boring or not. Getting to the level you can start going into the prestige class is going to feel really different between starting off halfway+ there, and getting there the long way (level 1, then one level at a time).



I've seen people say this alot but ive never understood why...can you try to explain it to me?

It partly stems from the fact that people on these forums who fancy themselves to be clever will occasionally be struck with equally clever (and sadistic) GMs. Spellbooks, unless you put some wards or other defensive investments into them are easily steal-able and vandalized. Adding new spells beyond simple character advancement is time consuming, and usually becomes something that people will usually only try to do during downtime. It's thankfully far less resource intensive in PF than in 3.5 (spell level squared X 10 gp vs spell level X 100 gp). They are nonetheless expensive to replace, and can usually be sold for a high price.



Am I wrong that I cant just take the extra exploits feat...aside from school understanding: admixture and quick study nothing really jumped out at me.

If nothing jumps out to you that's fine. I partially think from from an optimized standpoint (mostly due to the usual climate on these forums), and usually from what I've seen/read people will take some exploits for extra utility or something to use before spells (or after in some bad cases). Icy Missiles for example, does mediocre damage, but makes the target make a save or be Staggered for a round. Doesn't sound too impressive but it's a potent debuff for cheap and it's greater exploit version is decent as well. From what I gather that may not appeal to what you have in mind for your character, but one that might is the Dimensional Slide Exploit. And yes you can take the extra exploits feat, but you seemed to allude that the character is feat starved enough as is.



Hmmm...didn't know grease did that, noted...that said the main advantage to vanishing trick is the fact thats its a swift action and wont burn a spell slot.

I will also point out that Balancing in 3.5 noted that if one is sufficiently trained in the skill (i.e. 5 ranks) then they don't risk being flat-footed from those circumstances. That line is conspicuously missing from Pathfinder Acrobatics. Talk with your GM about this before you try it. If they're cool with that old kind of rule being included then the standard conversion would be 3 ranks in Acrobatics, just like the threshold for getting bonus to fighting defensively/ total defense action like they did between Tumble and Acrobatics.

[Blind_Prophet]

I will say that my opinion about the Kensai archetype is that it's very good, but also a bit overrated. Also the difference that I was thinking in mind is that the Spellslinger's shtick is do one thing at a time (spell or shoot), while Eldritch Archer's shtick is shoot and cast a spell in a turn. There being a potential to do some more burst sneak attack damage using potentially less resources. The downside to going Magus I admit is that your BAB will be shot, so anything that isn't an AoE or touch attack would probably whiff.

Adding SSW to that would solve the BAB issue somewhat (guns vs. touch and all) but its already the slowest entry to AT



but one that might is the Dimensional Slide Exploit. And


oooo thats cool added to the list :D



So what I'm seeing is that likely you'll be going SSW 1/Rogue 1-3/Arcanist 3/Arcane Trickster X, correct?

Thats roughly the idea yeah but still open to other options...just a question of archetypes, race and how many rogue levels really and...



yes you can take the extra exploits feat, but you seemed to allude that the character is feat starved enough as is.

It really feels that way but I could be wrong...this is what i was looking at:

Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Accomplished Sneak Attacker1+?,Rapid Reload, Extra Exploitsx?, Extra Rogue Talents?, Focused Shot, IPS, possibly extra investigator talent w/ the right archetype (? = not sure how many)

Talents that seemed helpful to my AT.
Arcanist Exploits: Quick Study, School Understanding (Admixture), Consume Magic Items, Dimensional Slide
Rogue Talents: Ki Pool, Vanishing Trick & Deadly Range
Investigator Talents: Mutagen, Greater Mut, Amazing Inspiration


Normally on a ranged attacker id take things like rapid shot and deadly aim but my attack mod is going to be on the lower end so i might avoid them especially since its more about the spell and SA than the guns damage so multiple shots are mostly irrelevant especially with guns longer reload times (even with rapid reload)





It partly stems from the fact that people on these forums who fancy themselves to be clever will occasionally be struck with equally clever (and sadistic) GMs. Spellbooks, unless you put some wards or other defensive investments into them are easily steal-able and vandalized. Adding new spells beyond simple character advancement is time consuming, and usually becomes something that people will usually only try to do during downtime. It's thankfully far less resource intensive in PF than in 3.5 (spell level squared X 10 gp vs spell level X 100 gp). They are nonetheless expensive to replace, and can usually be sold for a high price.


Hmmm...ive never had any issues like that but i could see how that would be really frustrating




Not quite. Dual advancement prestige classes in general tend to shine the most after getting a couple of levels, usually at the break even point. Which in this case I mean; the point where to have roughly equal abilities by multiclassing in base classes you'd have to be higher level than you are currently. Usually 3-4 levels+, if not nearly double in level. Until then you won't quite always be up to par in comparison to a single leveled person in raw power. You'll have more guns so to speak, they'll just have a bigger gun. Eventually, your guns won't be that much smaller than theirs, and you'll have more than them.

That said, starting level of the game changes whether or not things will feel boring or not. Getting to the level you can start going into the prestige class is going to feel really different between starting off halfway+ there, and getting there the long way (level 1, then one level at a time).


Starting at Level one likely doing giantslayer, rise of the runelords or iron gods...as for "not boring/uselss" ill try to give an example to explain what i mean better...in PFS im playing a battle herald which is a cavalier/bard dual advancement prestige...im doing it as a cavalier/exemplar brawler mainly because martial flexibility will allow me to swap around one of my teamwork feats since in PFS you never know who your gonna be partying with (outflank is really useful with lots of melee's but not very useful if your the only melee)...anyways to avoid feeling useless i took the cavalier level first since it grants me heavy armor and shield prof which is integral to the tank half of my character than at lvl 2 ill be taking brawler 1 to bring in martial flexibility so my teamwork sharing+martial flexibility combo come in to play and this also falls under the "not a waste" since those abilities will continue to be useful to me in battle herald.




If nothing jumps out to you that's fine. I partially think from from an optimized standpoint (mostly due to the usual climate on these forums)


No worries i get that, any responses are still helpful, i just filter out anything that doesnt line up with my "ideal" or if it isnt quite how our games go (ie. spellbook theft) my gaming group likes to say i ride the halfway point between optimization and roleplay...call me a Power Roleplayer :P (i tend to make a character concept first than find the pieces to fill in that concept second which tends to end up requiring some optimization so im not useless :P)



I will also point out that Balancing in 3.5 noted that if one is sufficiently trained in the skill (i.e. 5 ranks) then they don't risk being flat-footed from those circumstances. That line is conspicuously missing from Pathfinder Acrobatics. Talk with your GM about this before you try it. If they're cool with that old kind of rule being included then the standard conversion would be 3 ranks in Acrobatics, just like the threshold for getting bonus to fighting defensively/ total defense action like they did between Tumble and Acrobatics.

I'll check the wording myself than talk to her and my group.