How to work with Illusion spells

[Baldin]

Hi there,

So last session the following situation came up.

We were in a Cave and fighting a bunch of Orcs and an Elven Druid. We were in a tough spot and so our Wizard casted Major Image in one of the 3 tunnels to cut off some of the orcs from our group. The Illusion made it look as if the ground was collapsing and dark tendrils rose up from the depts below. The Orcs moved to the edge of the illusionairy hole and started throwing javelins to us.
The Druid unfortunatly managed to identify the spell being cast and knew it was an illusion (also having a high wisdom save/passive perception). She then just moved through the Illusion and towards us.

The question I now have. How would the orcs react to this illusion, seeing their druid and leader just move through. Do they just try it themselved or would they still stay away from the hole?

Cheers
Baldin

[JackPhoenix]

First, you can't make illusionary hole, because the illusion can't make things invisible, and the ground underneath is still there.

Physically interacting with the illusion (like walking through) reveals it to be an illusion and makes it faint to any observer.

So the orcs know there's an illusion. How they react to it is entirely up to them. Perhaps they are superstitious and still avoid it, perhaps they'll walk right through. We can't tell, because we don't control the orcs and know nothing about them.

[nickl_2000]

Did the Druid yell anything to tell the orcs that it was an illusion? If not, I would say that the orcs wouldn't immediately know it was an illusion. The standard orc is only 7 intelligence, which is smart enough to make them thing something odd is going on and investigate the illusion (spend an action to figure out that it isn't real), but not smart enough to immediately get it when the Druid walks through the illusion. If the orc fails the investigation check, it would likely assume that the Druid used some magicy druid stuff to walk through solid rock and tell his friends that.

If the Druid did say something the illusion would still look real until they tried to run through it. I would probably reduce the movement of the first orc to go since he would hesitate before moving through what looks like solid rock.

Those are all how I would do it at least. Are you the DM and wonder how you should have handled it? Or how was it handled?

[Baldin]

Thanks for the reply. Would you know where in the rulebook it says the spell will turn faint when you observe someone walk through?

[darknite]

Illusions have always been perplexing. In 5e it usually takes a successful Int(Investigation) check vs Spell DC to determine an illusion for what it is. A high Wisdom(Perception) just lets you see it better.

[Baldin]

I'm a player in the campaign. To not stagger the game we just ran it as I described, but I wonder what the take on the sitiation is in the playground. Illusions are always difficault to gage.

[nickl_2000]

Thanks for the reply. Would you know where in the rulebook it says the spell will turn faint when you observe someone walk through?

It's part of the Major Illusion Spell, but it only turns feint when you interact with it physically.


Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it. A creature that uses its action to examine the image can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the creature can see through the image, and its other sensory qualities becom e faint to the creature.




I'm a player in the campaign. To not stagger the game we just ran it as I described, but I wonder what the take on the sitiation is in the playground. Illusions are always difficault to gage.

Since it's an illusion, you have to let the DM handle it how they do. Illusions are about as up to the DM as Druid wildshaping is...

[B0nes]

Physically interacting with the illusion (like walking through) reveals it to be an illusion and makes it faint to any observer.

So the orcs know there's an illusion. How they react to it is entirely up to them. Perhaps they are superstitious and still avoid it, perhaps they'll walk right through. We can't tell, because we don't control the orcs and know nothing about them.

The illusion only becomes faint to the creature that physically interacted with it. It might prompt the others to use their actions to investigate the illusion though.


We were in a Cave and fighting a bunch of Orcs and an Elven Druid. We were in a tough spot and so our Wizard casted Major Image in one of the 3 tunnels to cut off some of the orcs from our group. The Illusion made it look as if the ground was collapsing and dark tendrils rose up from the depts below. The Orcs moved to the edge of the illusionairy hole and started throwing javelins to us.
The Druid unfortunatly managed to identify the spell being cast and knew it was an illusion (also having a high wisdom save/passive perception). She then just moved through the Illusion and towards us.

The question I now have. How would the orcs react to this illusion, seeing their druid and leader just move through. Do they just try it themselved or would they still stay away from the hole?



How did the druid identify the spell? Even with high passive perception a Major Image seems completely real, and should require an action to investigate at least. It sounds like the DM metagamed the illusion IMO, which happens a lot with illusion spells.

[Umbranar]

I am the DM for this group and I ran it like this. The druid shapeshifted and went into the tunnel. Then the spell was cast, the druid used her reaction to identify the spell (as per Xanathar's Guide), rolled high and went through. I reasoned at that time the orcs see the bear druid just moving through, realized it is fake, and moved onward after the bear druid walked right through. I later realized that maybe they should have taken the check, maybe with advantage as their druid boss just stomped through it, but they still had to convince themselves it was safe for them as well.
The success of this spell came down to the arcana check to recognize it, should I have rolled terrible the bear and orcs would have been stuck there for a little while.

Also, these were Volo's Orc Blade of Ilneval with an int of 10, not the standard dumb smashy orcs.

[nickl_2000]

How did the druid identify the spell? Even with high passive perception a Major Image seems completely real, and should require an action to investigate at least. It sounds like the DM metagamed the illusion IMO, which happens a lot with illusion spells.

Using the reaction ability from Xanathar's page 85 and a successful intelligence (arcana) check is the RAW way.

[Aerogellin]

So firstly I'd say you can make a "hole" in the ground, by creating an illusion that lays over the ground and creates the appearance of the floor falling out and leaving a black pit with tendrils rising up. It's correct you can't make anything invisible, but as long as the floor was smooth enough and protrusions (Like maybe a larger rock on the ground) were covered over with the tentacles it's an entirely viable illusion.

As for how the orcs would react when the druid walked over it, if they've ever seen an illusion they could easily identify the hole as such the moment they saw somebody walk over it, unless given reason not to. Specifically per Major Image: "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it."

[nickl_2000]

As the DM in this situation I ran it like this. The druid shapeshifted and went into the tunnel. Then the spell was cast, the druid used her reaction to identify the spell (as per Xanathar's Guide), rolled high and went through. I reasoned at that time the orcs see the bear druid just moving through, realized it is fake, and moved onward after the bear druid walked right through. I later realized that maybe they should have taken the check, maybe with advantage as their druid boss just stomped through it, but they still had to convince themselves it was safe for them as well.
The success of this spell came down to the arcana check to recognize it, should I have rolled terrible the bear and orcs would have been stuck there for a little while.

Also, these were Volo's Orc Blade of Ilneval with an int of 10, not the standard dumb smashy orcs.

I agree that, in hindsight, there should have been a successful investigation check for at least 1 orc who would communicate to the other orcs. Especially since a Druid in bear form can't talk. The check could be at advantage or not, either seems fair to me.

Still, it seems like it was handled well enough to me.

[Baldin]

I think I would have handeled it about the same way as Umbranar did. After the Druid went through the spell they would likely try it for themselves.

Same would be if the illusion was a wall and the druid would just pass through it. The orcs will most likely just try it themselves as they just saw their boss move into the wall aswell. Having them needing to roll an investigation would seem silly to me.

[B0nes]

I am the DM for this group and I ran it like this. The druid shapeshifted and went into the tunnel. Then the spell was cast, the druid used her reaction to identify the spell (as per Xanathar's Guide), rolled high and went through. I reasoned at that time the orcs see the bear druid just moving through, realized it is fake, and moved onward after the bear druid walked right through. I later realized that maybe they should have taken the check, maybe with advantage as their druid boss just stomped through it, but they still had to convince themselves it was safe for them as well.
The success of this spell came down to the arcana check to recognize it, should I have rolled terrible the bear and orcs would have been stuck there for a little while.

Also, these were Volo's Orc Blade of Ilneval with an int of 10, not the standard dumb smashy orcs.


Using the reaction ability from Xanathar's page 85 and a successful intelligence (arcana) check is the RAW way.

Well I stand corrected, thanks for clarifying. I do find it odd though that anyone can identify a spell being cast, even if it's not on their spell list (or even non-casters). I could understand identifying a spell after it was cast where they could have seen the effects before, but isn't each casters technique supposed to be unique to them?

[Umbranar]

Well I stand corrected, thanks for clarifying. I do find it odd though that anyone can identify a spell being cast, even if it's not on their spell list (or even non-casters). I could understand identifying a spell after it was cast where they could have seen the effects before, but isn't each casters technique supposed to be unique to them?

It is somewhat odd but I guess an arcana check represents your knowledge about spellcasting in general including elements of the components to recognize the spell. You have to roll 15+spell level and use your reaction, something that is still pretty high in 5e terms. To be honest my dice were on fire rolling about 12 nat 20's on attacks with the orcs and druid.

[Contrast]

The Druid unfortunatly managed to identify the spell being cast and knew it was an illusion (also having a high wisdom save/passive perception). She then just moved through the Illusion and towards us.

The question I now have. How would the orcs react to this illusion, seeing their druid and leader just move through. Do they just try it themselved or would they still stay away from the hole?

Cheers
Baldin

According to Xanathars is takes a reaction and an arcana check to identify what spell is being cast. If they managed to identify the spell being cast and then a gorge appeared, I'd consider it reasonable for them to assume it was an illusion. Alternatively, they can use their action to make an intelligence investigation check. A high wisdom save/perception does nothing for them.

Intelligence does few enough things as it is, lets not remove one of the few things it's useful for.

Now if the druid had the respect of the orcs, yelled that it was an illusion and then walked across it, I'd have the orcs treat is as an illusion (with maybe the first one losing a few feet of movement when they reached the edge). If they didn't yell out it was an illusion I'd probably have the orcs assume the magic person was doing magic to let them walk across the gorge.


First, you can't make illusionary hole, because the illusion can't make things invisible, and the ground underneath is still there.

Physically interacting with the illusion (like walking through) reveals it to be an illusion and makes it faint to any observer.

I don't see any problem with creating an illusory hole. Much like creating of an illusion of a painting blocks the visibility of the wall behind it, creating the illusion of a hole blocks the visibility of the floor beneath it. An illusory hole in a wall wouldn't let you see though the wall - it would let you see whatever the person project the illusion chose to project on the other side of the illusory hole.

With regard to physical interaction - I don't think that would work. Certainly it might encourage other creatures to use their action for an investigation check or to ignore the illusion despite still being able to see it, but I don't think it would become see through until such time as they interacted or investigated themselves.


Edit - ninja'd

[Temperjoke]

Based on what was described by the player and the DM, I think it was handled well enough from both sides. Unfortunately, it just didn't happen to work, which happens with the best thought-out plans sometimes. A different tactic might be, if the wizard knows the spell and has it prepared, would have been to use Hypnotic Pattern to attempt to charm the group, as it would leave them completely unable to attack if successful.

[JackPhoenix]

The illusion only becomes faint to the creature that physically interacted with it. It might prompt the others to use their actions to investigate the illusion though.

Nope. Physically interacting with an illusion reveals the illusion for what it is to anyone seeing the interaction
(https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/19/minor-illusion-physical-interaction-with-the-image-reveals-revealed-to-all-who-see-the-interaction/)


I don't see any problem with creating an illusory hole. Much like creating of an illusion of a painting blocks the visibility of the wall behind it, creating the illusion of a hole blocks the visibility of the floor beneath it. An illusory hole in a wall wouldn't let you see though the wall - it would let you see whatever the person project the illusion chose to project on the other side of the illusory hole.

Problem is that it would be "painting" of a hole, it would lack actual depth. It could work from one specific position, or from a distance, but not if you're actually moving around and see the thing from different angles up close. Imagine texture of a "hole" in a videogame vs. actual 3D model with opening included.

[JoeJ]

Problem is that it would be "painting" of a hole, it would lack actual depth. It could work from one specific position, or from a distance, but not if you're actually moving around and see the thing from different angles up close. Imagine texture of a "hole" in a videogame vs. actual 3D model with opening included.

It would have the illusion of depth at any angle you see it from, just like a mirror on a wall creates the illusion of another room and maintains the correct perspective regardless of where you position yourself. Illusions create the appearance of something that isn't real.

[sophontteks]

Investigation not necessary. they watched someone walk through the illusion. Its not real. The investigation check is used to determine if anything in the environment gives the illusion away, like snow going through it, or it not casting a proper shadow. Someone walking through it removes all the mystery right away.

Pretty cruel move making the druid recognize the spell being cast. Was the druid not busy in combat? If he wasn't I suppose it makes sense, but its still a pretty cruel move. I hope that wasn't an easy check and he rolled like a nat 20 on his arcana for that. Illusions are supposed to be pretty indistinguishable from their real counterparts.

[nickl_2000]

Pretty cruel move making the druid recognize the spell being cast. Was the druid not busy in combat? If he wasn't I suppose it makes sense, but its still a pretty cruel move. I hope that wasn't an easy check and he rolled like a nat 20 on his arcana for that. Illusions are supposed to be pretty indistinguishable from their real counterparts.

According to Xanathar's anyone can use a reaction in combat to try and identify a spell being cast. The DC is 15+spell level contested against Intelligence (arcana). So, a druid likely go a very good roll against an 18 DC

[sophontteks]

According to Xanathar's anyone can use a reaction in combat to try and identify a spell being cast. The DC is 15+spell level contested against Intelligence (arcana). So, a druid likely go a very good roll against an 18 DC

Good to know. Thanks!

[RSP]

The only thing I'd add in (and I just happen to be a stickler for lighting and vision), the bear doesn't have darkvision, therefore, how did they see the casting in order to identify it in a cave? Was the party using a light source? Was the caster in dim lighting (disadvantage to see the casting)?

[Ganymede]

Illusions have always been perplexing. In 5e it usually takes a successful Int(Investigation) check vs Spell DC to determine an illusion for what it is. A high Wisdom(Perception) just lets you see it better.

I assume this is to notice the logical inconsistencies in illusions (it isn't casting shadows right, the patterning in the wood is repeating, the chains aren't making any noise, the fabric isn't rippling in the breeze, etc.).

I remember starting a thread ages ago about whether illusions cast shadows/block light. Eventually I concluded it was better to just roll all those questions into the Investigation result than it was to determine answers to a bunch of ad hoc illusion physics questions.

[DMThac0]

I enjoy all the views that have been posted here, the spectrum of how people would have resolved the situation is huge, and I want to join in on the fun!

I hardly ever use the books when I DM, partly because I've played forever and partly because I don't care about the "rules".

--

The illusion is cast, in my mind I see that there is now this holographic style image on the ground with tentacles wriggling about, D&D meets CGI! The Orcs, having decent smarts, are caught for a moment by this strangeness and pause, caution is how they've survived this long. The Druid among them manages to catch a glimpse (successful roll) of one of the party members making motions that seem to indicate spell casting and the illusion springs forth, confirmation! The Druid moves forward, it knows the reality of the situation, but in bear form cannot speak, but tries to use it's movement across the illusion to bolster the orcs. The orcs see this (roll to realize it's an illusion), some will follow, some will falter, and some will be tentative as they try to cross.

I use a sliding scale on success when applicable, depending on how far under/over the resulting roll is from the DC can change the reaction the creature(s) have.

[sophontteks]

I enjoy all the views that have been posted here, the spectrum of how people would have resolved the situation is huge, and I want to join in on the fun!

I hardly ever use the books when I DM, partly because I've played forever and partly because I don't care about the "rules".

--

The illusion is cast, in my mind I see that there is now this holographic style image on the ground with tentacles wriggling about, D&D meets CGI! The Orcs, having decent smarts, are caught for a moment by this strangeness and pause, caution is how they've survived this long. The Druid among them manages to catch a glimpse (successful roll) of one of the party members making motions that seem to indicate spell casting and the illusion springs forth, confirmation! The Druid moves forward, it knows the reality of the situation, but in bear form cannot speak, but tries to use it's movement across the illusion to bolster the orcs. The orcs see this (roll to realize it's an illusion), some will follow, some will falter, and some will be tentative as they try to cross.

I use a sliding scale on success when applicable, depending on how far under/over the resulting roll is from the DC can change the reaction the creature(s) have.
You can be my DM any day.:smallbiggrin:
That's a wonderful and seemless interpretation that does follow the rules while permitting the PC some use of their third level spell despite it being revealed by the druid and it factored in many things. Bear form, varied reactions, the short time frame involved, the nature of the illusion etc.

[RSP]

Oh, one other thing, not sure if others allow this, but as Major Illusion allows the caster to use their action to move the illusion, and since all actions take place during the same 6 second turn, I allow the caster to move the illusion to react to others. So in this case, the caster could move the tentacles to make it seem like the bear was swallowed and obstruct the view down the cave (preventing the orcs from seeing the unharmed bear). I think that fits with the RAW and RAI, though, again, not sure how others would view that.

[NaughtyTiger]

Aw, nuts, I didn't even consider how Xanthar's nerfed intelligence rolls.

[Contrast]

Problem is that it would be "painting" of a hole, it would lack actual depth. It could work from one specific position, or from a distance, but not if you're actually moving around and see the thing from different angles up close. Imagine texture of a "hole" in a videogame vs. actual 3D model with opening included.

That's fair enough, my counterpoint would be that they're magic. If it works in Indiana Jones, it's good enough for me :smallwink:

[opaopajr]

Illusion school is fun stuff, but like the Enchantment school, it is best served when others aren't giving their best attention. Distract the eye, deflect the attention, then lunge in with Illusions and Enchantments. :smalltongue: I would have loved to run an entire table of Illusionists or Enchanters on AL tables when I did that... It'll take more time, probably longer than usually alloted, but it'd be a blast to see players struggle to coordinate and then finally 'get it'. :smallsmile: