2 groups in the same city....at odds

[Mongoose19]

I'm in the process of starting a game where I am deliberately pitting 2 players parties against one another ( I have 12 friends / corisponding significant others who all wanted to play so I divided them into 2 groups). I made it seem to group 1 that they were the only game I was going to run. while secretly infoming group 2 that they would be a separate adventuring party that is already set up inside the city group 1 is just entering. I have told both groups that they want to retrieve the mcguffin at the bottom of the dungeon but how they go about it is up to them ( charge down and get it or in group 2s case wait for group 1 to grab it and come out then try and steal it). The game will be primarily a city / social game with interludes of going into the dungeon to kill things and get further down towards the mcguffin.

Notes:
- all players will be gestalt ( but I have run several gestalt games before)
- level 6 will be a hard cap
- no spells of 4th level or higher are available to anything in game
- primitive firearms are quite common
- all pathfinder classes and archtypes are legal baring 3rd party content
- the dungeon will be an ever changing "instance" type thing (somewhat like betrayal on house on the hill if you have played that board game) that creates a unique maze for each party every time they enter so they won't run into each other mid session.

I'm wondering if any of you have tried anything like this before and had any specific hang ups to note.

I'm not worried about hurt feelings these guys pvp all the time and laugh it off. Im more concerned with mechanics or just the logistics of dual party games and trying to keep 1 party a secret from the others without super cheese. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Cheers :)

[Nifft]

Since this is a city / social game, are you going to use the organization or business rules to let the two groups interact indirectly?

They would still be able to "count coup" by thwarting each others' business goals, and I think somewhere in 3.5e there are rules for that type of organizational success.

[Mongoose19]

That sounds fantastic, I'm looking for it right now!

Edit: do you mean the downtime rules?

[Nifft]

That sounds fantastic, I'm looking for it right now!

DMG2 had some business & organization rules, but they looked incomplete when I skimmed them just now.

There ought to be something like, "How to run a PC organization Shadow War" in one of the books, which seems like a good fit for your groups.

[Mongoose19]

DMG2 had some business & organization rules, but they looked incomplete when I skimmed them just now.

There ought to be something like, "How to run a PC organization Shadow War" in one of the books, which seems like a good fit for your groups.


Found the dmg2 and I'm reading the section on organizations. This is some good stuff Thank you!

[Obscuraphile]

If you really want to get into the logistics of running the city then you might want to review the rules around purchasing limits and total assets available in a city of whatever size you are using. Either because party 2 might want to screw with party 1 by buying up all of a specific resource or something similar. If you really look at and keep track of the PC's spending then unless you have a huge city they are going to exhaust those numbers pretty quickly.

Also if you're using random NPC generation rules and the parties need specific contacts there are only going to be a few priests or wizards around of any note.

[Mongoose19]

If you really want to get into the logistics of running the city then you might want to review the rules around purchasing limits and total assets available in a city of whatever size you are using. Either because party 2 might want to screw with party 1 by buying up all of a specific resource or something similar. If you really look at and keep track of the PC's spending then unless you have a huge city they are going to exhaust those numbers pretty quickly.

Also if you're using random NPC generation rules and the parties need specific contacts there are only going to be a few priests or wizards around of any note.


Great insight. I love the idea of party 2 buying up all the healing items or something like that. I also fully agree the npc magic users are going to be hard to come by.

Cheers!

[Obscuraphile]

Great insight. I love the idea of party 2 buying up all the healing items or something like that. I also fully agree the npc magic users are going to be hard to come by.

Cheers!

Just remember that unless precautions are taken stuff like that is a great way for party 1 to discover party 2. Or at least find clues about them. Although that could lead to a great cat and mouse scenario where no one is really sure who is the feline and who is the rodent. Especially if the parties split up :smallwink:

[Nifft]

Thinking about this a bit more, it seems like there are two overall ways you could go:


1/ This has never happened before! These two parties of PCs are so powerful, their economic conflict is utterly unprecedented. The city's institutions and citizens struggle to react & survive in this savage yet mostly bloodless war.
The PCs of each party mostly see the effects of their own plots, or the plots of the other party.
Citizens & institutions might be useful as cats-paws, but don't really take initiative.
The most interesting conflicts will occur outside the city.



2/ Powerful intrigue is business as usual. These two parties of PCs are strong, but they're not the only two fish in this pond. Other institutions are on the same relative level as the parties -- probably starting out stronger & more established, but the PCs gain capabilities at a breakneck pace so eventually the parties ought to be eye-to-eye with even the biggest established player.
The PCs of each party mostly see the daily operation of these established institutions. When they see something happening, it's probably not the other party -- they need to gather info before acting, else they'll stir up a hornet's nest when the established players seek payback.
It's a jungle out there. The established organizations may try to ally with / use / betray / undermine / investigate / ward off one party or the other, based on the actions of the PCs. There ought to be at least one Machiavellian figure trying to use the inter-party rivalry for political advantage.
The most interesting conflicts might be social, in the city, and secure or thwart the interests of one of the "big neutral" organizations. When the PCs leave the city, it's in support of a mission for one of their establishment allies.



The former is more comedy -- the PCs are such a big deal that the local socioeconomic landscape warps in response to their actions.

The latter might be a lot more work, but it sounds incredibly fun.

[Mongoose19]

Just remember that unless precautions are taken stuff like that is a great way for party 1 to discover party 2. Or at least find clues about them. Although that could lead to a great cat and mouse scenario where no one is really sure who is the feline and who is the rodent. Especially if the parties split up :smallwink:

Roger that! & thank you!


Thinking about this a bit more, it seems like there are two overall ways you could go:


1/ This has never happened before! These two parties of PCs are so powerful, their economic conflict is utterly unprecedented. The city's institutions and citizens struggle to react & survive in this savage yet mostly bloodless war.
The PCs of each party mostly see the effects of their own plots, or the plots of the other party.
Citizens & institutions might be useful as cats-paws, but don't really take initiative.
The most interesting conflicts will occur outside the city.



2/ Powerful intrigue is business as usual. These two parties of PCs are strong, but they're not the only two fish in this pond. Other institutions are on the same relative level as the parties -- probably starting out stronger & more established, but the PCs gain capabilities at a breakneck pace so eventually the parties ought to be eye-to-eye with even the biggest established player.
The PCs of each party mostly see the daily operation of these established institutions. When they see something happening, it's probably not the other party -- they need to gather info before acting, else they'll stir up a hornet's nest when the established players seek payback.
It's a jungle out there. The established organizations may try to ally with / use / betray / undermine / investigate / ward off one party or the other, based on the actions of the PCs. There ought to be at least one Machiavellian figure trying to use the inter-party rivalry for political advantage.
The most interesting conflicts might be social, in the city, and secure or thwart the interests of one of the "big neutral" organizations. When the PCs leave the city, it's in support of a mission for one of their establishment allies.



The former is more comedy -- the PCs are such a big deal that the local socioeconomic landscape warps in response to their actions.

The latter might be a lot more work, but it sounds incredibly fun.

I am definitely leaning towards method 2, the red herons that they might chase for days will be awesome...giving the better deductive party a solid edge. That's the kind of stuff I want to reward.

You guys have given me a lot to think about before bed. Cheers!

[Nifft]

I am definitely leaning towards method 2, the red herons that they might chase for days will be awesome...giving the better deductive party a solid edge. That's the kind of stuff I want to reward.

You guys have given me a lot to think about before bed. Cheers!

Sounds great.

Feel free to bounce ideas off us regarding the established interests in the city.

IMHO there could be a map of overt relationships & rivalries (and another, secret map for covert relationships & rivalries).

[Mongoose19]

The organization's I have in mind so far are:

-The city guard who's leaders are paladins. The captain of the guard being the steward / lords son.
- the dwarves who lived inside the plinth the city is built upon well before the city was founded. They are ruled by a king who gets along well with the steward/lord. The dwarves are also responsible for the creation of firearms
- the human trade guild who acts as a go between for the dwarves, shipping firearms and ammunition out of the city.
- the people's interests group ( currently unnamed) that will petition for whatever the common folk might need.
- a thieves guild run by a Rakshasa, Amanusya
- and a gladiators brotherhood who fight with blunted weapons against each other but have real battles against convicted murderers/ other horrible violent criminals

The city will be classified as a small city for mechanics. And to keep things manageable for my tiny brain but the fact that it is such a production center might lead towards having more items available than a typical small city.

Any other organizations or thoughts?

[Obscuraphile]

An overtly religious or magical institution is conspicuously absent

[Mongoose19]

An overtly religious or magical institution is conspicuously absent

Valid point! I was kind of including them with /as the paladins for the religious zealots. But a magical organization is a clear nessisaty, maybe a school or a cult who is accepted but also shunned out of fear? I have warned the PCs that open casting of spells around strangers could cause some to react violently out of fear. So maybe this cult has a symbol that essentially acts as a licence to cast within city limits. Would that feel too restrictive to magic heavy characters? They would be able to prove themselves responsible within a session or two if they wanted too I'm thinking.

[DeTess]

Have you considered how you are going to keep the pacing of the two parties in line with eachother? Even within the same party I've had sessions covering anywhere from an hour to two weeks in game time, so I expect that this might become an issue if you've got two parties that need to occupy the same time period each set of sessions.

[Mongoose19]

Have you considered how you are going to keep the pacing of the two parties in line with eachother? Even within the same party I've had sessions covering anywhere from an hour to two weeks in game time, so I expect that this might become an issue if you've got two parties that need to occupy the same time period each set of sessions.

I figured this would be somewhat mitigated due to them being inside the city for most if not all of the game. So travel times won't be an issue and I was thinking of working in 2 day blocks ( in game time). Our games are normally limited to 4 - 5 hour sessions (sadly) so unless a group is actively trying to pass time I'm hoping it won't come down to me having to make an excuse to stop the session early.

I will admit this is probably my biggest hurdle to keeping the secret going in my opinion.

Cheers!

Edit: and I can stop group 2 at any time by saying they have hit current time frame if there is any chance of interacting with group 1. Also Group 2 is cool with setting up contingencies for me to play out should an emergency spring up and I can't contact the player.

[Obscuraphile]

Would that feel too restrictive to magic heavy characters? They would be able to prove themselves responsible within a session or two if they wanted too I'm thinking.

I don't think so. As long as you made the setting's take on magic clear to players before they made their characters, then they should expect a bit of adversity for being spellcasters. Handled correctly that kind of thing can be good for bringing a world to life.

[Hate9]

I've been meaning to do something like this for a while (online) with a good-aligned party and an evil-aligned party, but using two colluding DMs and keeping the fact that either party is played by real people a secret to both.

It's literally my favourite idea I've never run.

Actually, if someone wants to try that with me as co-DMs (probably on roll20), you should totally PM me, since I would actually have the time to run it now.

[Mongoose19]

I don't think so. As long as you made the setting's take on magic clear to players before they made their characters, then they should expect a bit of adversity for being spellcasters. Handled correctly that kind of thing can be good for bringing a world to life.

Cheers! I'm writing it in then.


I've been meaning to do something like this for a while (online) with a good-aligned party and an evil-aligned party, but using two colluding DMs and keeping the fact that either party is played by real people a secret to both.

It's literally my favourite idea I've never run.

Actually, if someone wants to try that with me as co-DMs (probably on roll20), you should totally PM me, since I would actually have the time to run it now.

IL keep you posted on how this one goes, I'm having the first session for group 1 on the 20th and group 2 shortly after. Shoot me a message once you start, I'd love to hear about it!

[Hate9]

Cheers! I'm writing it in then.



IL keep you posted on how this one goes, I'm having the first session for group 1 on the 20th and group 2 shortly after. Shoot me a message once you start, I'd love to hear about it!

Will do. I'm definitely keen on seeing what kinds of issues/unintended side effects might crop up.

For the record, the one that comes to mind is that players are usually a way more dangerous than monsters, based on how CR and level work.