PDA

View Full Version : Optimization When two become one matryoshka doll



daremetoidareyo
2018-05-07, 12:29 PM
Inspired by the Shugenja E6 competition: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23049256&postcount=76

Here is the spell text

Necromancy
Level: Shugenja 3 (Water),
Components: V, S, DF,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)

When you cast this spell, your spirit enters the body of your horse (which you must be riding when you cast the spell) and merges with the horse's own.
Your own body hunkers low on the horse's back and holds on tight for the duration of the spell; it is a part of the body you and your steed share, but not a particularly useful part.
As a joint creature, you and your mount share all your skills, feats, and abilities.
You make all checks, saves, and attack rolls using the better base number (yours or your horse's) and the better ability score modifier.
You retain your own Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, memory, personality, level and class, alignment, and extraordinary and supernatural abilities.
You gain your horse's Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, speed, natural armor and weapons, and extraordinary abilities.
Opponents can attack either your body or your mount's.
Your body uses the mount's Dexterity bonus to AC, not subject to the maximum Dexterity bonus for your armor type, with your own size modifier, armor bonus, and magical bonuses.
Your mount's body uses its own Dexterity bonus, size modifier, armor bonus, natural armor bonus, and any magical bonuses derived from items on your body other than armor (such as an amulet of natural armor or ring of protection).
You and your mount share a pool of hit points equal to your combined total hit points.
When an opponent hits either your body or your mount's,
the damage is subtracted from this combined pool.
Neither you nor your mount becomes disabled or dying until all these combined hit points are exhausted.
When the spell ends, you divide the hit points remaining in the pool as you choose between you and your mount.

So the idea is simple. Take create infusion from masters of the wild, and make a number of when two become one infusions for you to eat to cast the spell additional times on successively larger mounts that are "horses." Because the caster shares skills with the mount, we are using their ride skill to mount a larger horse and eat our infusion to blend together an additional time. Again and again it goes.

For the uses of this optimization experiment, donkeys and zebras are equine enough to be considered horses. Let's assume that only creatures of the animal type work unless they are a magical beast due to being a familiar or paladin mount.

I assume that our caster needs to be small sized or smaller (if we can find horses small enough...)


Would a Titanic (MM2) Pony count as a horse?

Or maybe a Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape) Titanic Warhorse?

We can absolutely template stack as necessary. But mind the type change.

How big a mega horse can we make. Let's assume no higher HD than 12 for the shugenja in question.

Let's see how funky this becomes.

InvisibleBison
2018-05-07, 01:13 PM
The rules for mounts on page 204 of the DMG say that a mount must be "able and willing to carry its rider in a typical fashion". I don't know if a horse is capable of carrying another, smaller horse on its back.

If we're able to find a way around that, the only limit to how many times you can merge is how long your when two become one spells last - which since it can be persisted is not much of a limit. Merging with a horse increases your size by one category; having either reduce person or reduce animal (depending on what type you are) cast on you after you merge reduces you back to the size you started out as, allowing you to keep merging with regular horses for as long as you please.

ben-zayb
2018-05-07, 07:34 PM
What if you have an at will Change Shape, Alternate Form, or Polymorph to get your size back to Small/Medium?

RaiKirah
2018-05-07, 10:42 PM
Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species let's you cast as some sort of horse-limpet monstrosity (this spell weirds me out) and then you can start stacking without needing infusions.

Polymorph et. al. can then get around the issue of horses not enjoying being ridden by other horses.

While in your beast-with-two-backs-but-not-in-a-fun-way form you qualify for Multivoice (assuming feat prereqs) from SS, letting you cast two spells for one standard.

Edit: The Humanoid Shape lesser invocation for the Dragonfire Adept would also probably let you trick those poor stupid horses to let you climb on their backs

Thurbane
2018-05-08, 12:01 AM
Here's some templates that don't change type from Animal*:


Chameleon Creature (Und): gains Reptilian subtype, climb speed, bonus to Hide checks and a non-damaging tongue attack
Dungeonbred (Dng): large or larger creature reduces by one size, easy maintenance, +2 save vs. disease and poison, str +4, Con +4 (after scores are modified for size change), improved natural attack feats, endurance bonus feat
Horrid (ECS): +5 natural AC, acidic attack, ill tempered quality, immunity to acid, improved natural healing, Con +4
Magebred (ECS): excellent learner, +10 movement, +2 natural AC or +4 to Survial checks, +2 to one of Str, Dex or Con, +2 to of Str, Dex or Con
Mineral Warrior (Und): gains Earth subtype, burrow speed, +3 natural AC, earth strike special attack, DR 8/adamantine, +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int (2 minimum), -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Titanic (MM2): becomes gargantuan, has 25HD, natural Ac and abilities change according to size of original creature, gains a trample attack, natural attacks increase etc. (can only be applied to a medium or smaller animal)
Voidmind (MM3): +4 natural AC, sentient tentacle attack with improved grab, cone of slime special attack, DR 5/magic, immunity to acid and mid affecting attacks, ablity damage, ability drain and energy drain, mind flayer host, Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2*, Cha -2 (2 minimum) (the Int increase may make the creature no longer an animal, but it's not specifically called out in the type changes)
Warbeast (MM2): +1 HD, +10 ft speed, combative mount quality, Str +3, Con +3, Wis +2, +1 bonus to Listen and Spot checks
Woodling (MM3): +7 natural AC, slam attack, SLAs (if Wis or Cha is 8 or higher), DR 5/slashing, plant traits, +4 bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks in natural environments, vulnerability to fire

Zaq
2018-05-08, 12:18 AM
We might want to start as small as possible to get as many layers as possible, because that's amusing.

What's the smallest horse and rider we can start with?

tterreb
2018-05-08, 12:58 AM
The miniature template would be perfect, but it looks like that's pathfinder only...

Zaq
2018-05-08, 01:01 AM
I think part of the problem is determining ahead of time just how narrowly we're defining the word "horse."

tterreb
2018-05-08, 01:36 AM
Also, from what I can tell, there's actually no rule requiring a mount to be larger in order to ride it. It never states that in order to mount something it has to be a suitable mount, and the rules compendium pg. 88 states that an unsuitable mount gives you a -5 penalty to ride checks. Most GMs probably wouldn't allow it, but RAW you could stack as many large horses as you want on top of each other.

daremetoidareyo
2018-05-08, 07:44 AM
I think we have to ban polymorph and shape change the put reasonable limits on this thought experiment.

Is there a horse based shifter?

Andor13
2018-05-08, 09:11 AM
I feel like this is the path that leads to Ponyfinder.

RaiKirah
2018-05-08, 09:17 AM
Another limiting factor is carry weight - at some point the Equine Horror will crush any subsequent mount.

If we're banning polymorph and shape change we'll need a way to convince the mounts to allow rider on board. Does a high enough handle animal check suffice?

Edit: the Phantom Steed spell has some potential here I think, as it effectively has no weight limit, and at CL 14 gives you continuous flight at 240 ft with average maneuverability

Edit the Second: If we're looking for practical(ish) uses to consider, either as jumping off points for more shenanigans or simply as a practical optimaztion start point, here's a couple ideas:

A Sword of the Arcane Order Paladin of Mystra build with 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard to pick up When Two Become One gets us to three horses deep pretty simply. Starting with a vanilla warhorse, then Paladin Mount should let you on, followed by Phantom Steed.

If we want to go all mecha, a Warforged Effigy Master (picking up the spell via either a Shugenja base or Wyrm Wizard) let's you become a mechanical horse/rider. More Wyrm Wizard lets you pick up the Wu Jen spell Giant Size which then lets us rampage around as a Colossal mech. This one may not be RAW legal, as it would depend on the definition of 'horse.'

Wish I'd bothered to look at the spell list before, as this idea is really amusing me and I likely would have built a dish for the E6 Appetizer competition, though the fact that you would have to take 6 Spellcasting levels makes it slightly more restrictive in that format. Ah well, now we get to work on it collectively :)

Thurbane
2018-05-08, 03:32 PM
I think we have to ban polymorph and shape change the put reasonable limits on this thought experiment.

Is there a horse based shifter?

I'm not sure if there's a more direct citation lurking anywhere, but the DMG section on special mounts says this (underlining mine):


Suitable Mounts: You have the final decision on what is or is not a suitable mount. At its most basic level, a mount should have the following characteristics:
Able and willing to carry its rider in a typical fashion. (A camel is able and willing. A tiger might be capable but may not be willing. A giant might be willing but not truly able.)
At least one size category larger than the character. Also, a flying mount can carry no more than a light load aloft.

tterreb
2018-05-09, 03:08 AM
It defines what a suitable mount is, but it never says you can't ride an unsuitable mount, and even goes so far as to give you rules for doing so.

Thurbane
2018-05-09, 04:20 AM
It defines what a suitable mount is, but it never says you can't ride an unsuitable mount, and even goes so far as to give you rules for doing so.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/5e/2c/c25e2c53ba79ff6746484687d0e28b48.jpg

tterreb
2018-05-09, 04:25 AM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/5e/2c/c25e2c53ba79ff6746484687d0e28b48.jpg

See? A medium creature riding a small creature. It works. Now just imagine them merging.

Sapreaver
2018-05-09, 08:19 AM
What would happen if you were riding the party druid? Would the druid still get their turn?

RaiKirah
2018-05-09, 09:24 AM
What would happen if you were riding the party druid? Would the druid still get their turn?

Huh, I think maybe you just take over their body entirely?

Back to the exercise though: I think we can start with a diminutive creature (unless someone can point me towards a diminutive animal familiar):

1st level: take any tiny animal familiar, cast Reduce Animal on it.
2nd level: be an Anthropomorphic Horse and get the Compression power through some means, use it to reduce by two size categories to tiny
3rd-6th: we need Animal Companions (Druid, Ranger, Wild Cohort, Beastmaster, etc) or Paladin Mounts to be able to convince them to let us ride, but using Reduce Animal and Animal Growth on ponies and horses gets us small, medium, large, and huge stages in our stacking. Not sure how to go larger while unambiguously using horses. Maybe share spells with additional familiars using Giant Size?