MovieBob Fixes the DCEU

[Psyren]

With Infinity War in one weekend having eclipsed (https://screenrant.com/avengers-infinity-war-justice-league-box-office/) Justice League's entire worldwide box office take (which was itself down from its predecessor, Batman v Superman v Board of Education), there are good odds that the upcoming Flashpoint movie will be used by WB to reboot their comparatively struggling DCEU. This would let them mulligan all the stuff that hasn't worked as well (read: everything but Wonder Woman) much as Flashpoint in the comics was used to simplify and modernize DC's printed product line. Late last year, Moviebob released a pair of videos laying out what I feel are some pretty solid ideas for how DC could go about righting the ship. Full videos below (about 15m each) if you want the whole thing, but to spare everyone from sitting through them both just to see what I thought was worth talking about, I'm pulling out the cooler bits in the next post to get the forum's thoughts.

Fixing the DCEU Part 1: Flashpoint and Justice League (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0pgi5G68y8)
Fixing the DCEU Part 2: The aftermath / solo movie line-up ideas post-Flashpoint. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxY63B3scg)

Full disclosure, I'm not actually a DC fan myself... but I think some of Bob's ideas could very well make me one. My specific reasons/discussion follow below, but those who want to can feel free to start talking about (or refuting/debating) theirs.

[Psyren]

Ideas from the first part:

- As mentioned, Flashpoint the movie would be used like its comic and animated counterpart as an excuse to keep the parts of the DCEU people liked while getting a chance to redo the stuff that didn't work. Where Bob thinks it should differ would be the tone - Flashpoint itself is pretty dark, and that's what DC needs less of. Speed powers work really well with more upbeat action, even comedy - just look at Quicksilver's scenes in both the X-Men and MCU movies - and DC leaning into that would be a great way to show that they're going for a more upbeat tone.

- Bob made the excellent point that the Flash TV show has probably burned the public out on "evil speedster" being Barry's foil. While Zoom was the villain in the Flashpoint cartoon, when a phenomenon has reached the point of memetic parody (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCrljh4cDt4), it's probably time to shake up the formula. Bob threw out two solid non-speedster villain suggestions here, folks smart enough to understand Barry's powers, trick him into causing a universe-fracturing paradox, and still manage to capitalize on the results for their own nefarious ends. These were Ra's al Ghul (due to his functional immortality) and the Clock King (whose understanding of time would make him a perfect secret villain.) I personally prefer the latter since the former was already established primarily as a Batman villain and you'd have to show how this Ra's is different than his Batman Begins portrayal (particularly dialing up his supernatural aspects), but that name recognition could be a point in his favor. Clock King though would work as a perfectly believable "I can easily deal with speedsters without being one myself" sort of antagonist too.

- Flashpoint's other big story beat was replacing Bruce Wayne with his far more brutal father Thomas to be Barry's "you screwed up big time, now help me fix everything" contact who is native to the future timeline. Bob's idea of replacing Thomas Wayne with Future Bruce as a springboard for a Batman Beyond movie in the post-credits stinger was nothing short of genius.

- For Justice League itself - back away from the New Gods stuff (Steppenwolf, Darkseid etc.) Obviously he's the big bad later but he's too close in ideology to Thanos right now. Bob had some great ideas for future movies a la Crime Syndicate/Legion of Doom, Tower of Babel (the one where Batman's hyper-preparedness bites everyone in the rear), and of course Blackest Night once you get Green Lantern out of the basement. He was less clear on how to start it all off though, and I feel that Braniac would be a great opportunity here given that Ultron was probably the most mixed ensemble movie in the MCU lineup. He's scary to a group for all the same reasons that Ultron was, but this is a guy who could actually take Superman in a fistfight if he needed too so you don't get the Hulk smash easy resolution.

Ideas from the second part:

I'll just fire these off as I liked them all.

- Bruce Gold/Blue Beetle as a dual comedy act
- A Batman story that's actually about solving a damn mystery instead of world-altering stakes
- A Batgirl that gives Killing Joke the biggest middle finger imaginable
- Wonder Woman being canonically (and loudly) queer
- Cyborg either starting the Titans or getting disillusioned with the League and creating the Outsiders and man isn't there a great racial allegory in there.
- Superman... well actually I really don't know what you do with Superman as a solo movie that hasn't been done, but he does have a fairly interesting rogue's gallery in his own right.
- Spectre as DC's brutal R-Rated superhero-horror franchise.
- Swamp Thing as "woke vegan goth Hulk".

[Lacuna Caster]

- A Batman story that's actually about solving a damn mystery instead of world-altering stakes
- A Batgirl that gives Killing Joke the biggest middle finger imaginable
As much as I'd like to see a detective-focused Batman story and think the character might benefit substantially from being tucked away in his own universe, world-altering stakes is something he kinda needs to be capable of keeping up with if you're working toward a Justice League lineup. Maybe not immediately, but at some point it's gonna come up.

I also kind of... liked Oracle, at least conceptually? I'm not tremendously fond of the Killing Joke, and maybe someone more familiar with Batgirl's earlier appearances could correct me, but the DCAU version always struck me as something of a thrill-seeking tourist, and the hacker-mastermind/social-coordinator version has led to interesting things.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I'm not really sure what to make of Moviebob's ideas. I'm generally of the opinion that anything can be made into a good story if the writer is clever/creative enough. So I don't really have much to say about his ideas other than "it could work".

I would imagine the first question a writer would need to answer for any of those ideas is "what is the point of 'x'?" To give an example, what would be the point of having Flash's nemesis be the Clock King? To me, that seems like it would require the ultimate resolution to be solving a mystery or outwitting the villain like a chessmaster rather than having an action sequence lead to the resolution of the plot. I'm not sure a movie in this genre could really be made like that (especially with the role of focus groups and test screenings being a thing), but "it could work".

I have another wild idea though. Don't have a DCEU in the first place.

Just create/adapt individual stories to movies without tying them together in any way. Make each movie stand on its own merits. That's what used to be done with these franchises for a long time and it worked well.

Kingdom Come could potentially make an interesting movie. Especially since the tone of the setting is clearly darker/grittier worldbuilding like they've been doing in their movies and Superman stands as a counterpoint to that. It could be the company's signal that they've given up on trying what they've been doing up until now.

Alternatively, launch the DCEU from Teen Titans Go! Those writers know what they're doing.

[The Troubadour]

Clock King? Really? So many more appropriate villains out there and he picks Clock King?

Otherwise, chalk me up as thinking a reboot being a terrible idea. For starters, I liked the JLA movie; secondly, I doubt a non-comics audience will have the patience for that.

[Lemmy]

I think Barbara Gordon was waaaaaaaaay more interesting as Oracle than as Batgirl. IMHO, she's like Hal Jordan ans Barry Allen: The original, most iconic... And blandest character to use the name. As Oracle she was unique, noteworthy and badass.

And using Clock King as a villain sounds dumb... Does anyone really know or cares about that guy? Flash is tough to write because he's simply too powerful, specially compared to his enemies.

I don't care one way or the other for queer Wonder Woman. Although I generally prefer to stay true to the source material and fear that making her gay would eventually lead to the writers turning her into a straw feminist.

Batman solving a mystery would be cool, but it would probably still need a good amount of action for cinema. Well... I'll be happy if they get rid of Leto's Joker.

[Psyren]

As much as I'd like to see a detective-focused Batman story and think the character might benefit substantially from being tucked away in his own universe, world-altering stakes is something he kinda needs to be capable of keeping up with if you're working toward a Justice League lineup. Maybe not immediately, but at some point it's gonna come up.

You're absolutely right, Batman does need to punch up with the aliens - but his solo movies don't need to show him going to those lengths. Indeed, putting world-threatening stakes in those is actually a drawback, especially now that they've established Metropolis and Gotham to be more or less within eyesight of one another. When Bane is about to nuke the city again, Clark would obviously be less than accommodating about that, especially given that they've established he even cares about the petty crims that Batman was branding in BvS.



I also kind of... liked Oracle, at least conceptually? I'm not tremendously fond of the Killing Joke, and maybe someone more familiar with Batgirl's earlier appearances could correct me, but the DCAU version always struck me as something of a thrill-seeking tourist, and the hacker-mastermind/social-coordinator version has led to interesting things.

I love Oracle too, but how they got to her is just the worst.



I would imagine the first question a writer would need to answer for any of those ideas is "what is the point of 'x'?" To give an example, what would be the point of having Flash's nemesis be the Clock King? To me, that seems like it would require the ultimate resolution to be solving a mystery or outwitting the villain like a chessmaster rather than having an action sequence lead to the resolution of the plot. I'm not sure a movie in this genre could really be made like that (especially with the role of focus groups and test screenings being a thing), but "it could work".

I don't know if you've seen/read Flashpoint (I only saw the animated one myself) but a mystery was definitely at the heart of it. The story hinged on Barry basically suppressing a memory so thoroughly that he didn't even realize he was responsible for FUBARing the timeline, and the entire second act is him coming to terms with that so he can fix things.

For the record I'm not married to Clock King, I just think he would be cool. You could get a really methodical and menacing British actor, say Charles Dance or Matthew Goode, for a role like that easily I think. As for why, I have three solid reasons:

1) An older, brainy villain would be a good foil for Flash, whose ability to think and act very fast is both his strength and his weakness (it makes him impulsive and thus easy to manipulate.) This is especially true for the DCEU Flash, which would play up the generational divide even more. It's part of the reason that Vulture worked so well opposite Spiderman Homecoming's similarly younger protagonist. (Tom is younger than Ezra, but not by much.)

2) "Enemy speedster" has been done to absolute death in the Flash Netflix show. DC has run that concept into the ground (no pun intended) via Zoom, Reverse-Flash, and Savitar; someone who can manipulate time meanwhile could actually beat a speedster at their own game for your blowout Act 3 showdown without having to be one themselves, or without the finale degenerating into just two dudes punching each other normally for a while surrounded by slo-mo. You can always do the Reverse Flash stuff in a later movie, like a sequel (which in this case would actually be the first movie, since Flashpoint would be a universe-wide prequel) or that Legion of Doom thing they apparently want to do at some point. Best of all, you can actually kill off somebody like Clock King, whereas Reverse Flash is a bit more marketable.

3) Universe connectivity: Clock King (at least, his Temple Fugit incarnation) is actually a Batman villain, and Tockman was Green Arrow. So if DCEU is the goal, someone with motivations broader than just stopping Flash (as most of his Rogues' Gallery have) would be useful.

Again though, not married to Clock King by any means. Let's face it, they're probably going to go with RF here since it'd be an origin story, and also to show they can out-do Quicksilver by having some bonkers speedster vs. speedster fight scenes. The tiny bit of Flash vs. Supes we got in JL wasn't nearly good enough.



I have another wild idea though. Don't have a DCEU in the first place.

Just create/adapt individual stories to movies without tying them together in any way. Make each movie stand on its own merits. That's what used to be done with these franchises for a long time and it worked well.

I mean, Bob suggested that too. But "never do a DCEU" is pretty much a non-starter at this point. Being a lot more careful with it than they have been is one thing, but throwing out the possibility entirely is quite another. I'd be fine with standalone movies + mythology gags in the background with no post-credit scenes though.



Alternatively, launch the DCEU from Teen Titans Go! Those writers know what they're doing.

I mean, it couldn't be much worse :smallbiggrin:

[Legato Endless]

Something to stylistically change things up a bit would be to embrace a somewhat more egalitarian view. The MCU is a place where the elites do (most) things that matter. Pulling from Wonderwoman's ending (which I felt was a more mature meditation on war than Captain America: The First Avengers) where Diana can't solve any of this on her own, would help thematically differentiate the works from the MCU juggernaut that usually focuses on the vast responsibility people with great power have. The DC universe pursuing the idea that even people with great power can't fix things, but they can inspire people at large to start making the world a better place, would both give the franchise a different identity and lend itself to a different stylistical structuring. It also lets DC riff on their own Demigods among people angle while melding that with something people can still connect to and feel validated by.

Chalk me up as another person who'd prefer we keep Oracle as a prominent character and simply use any of the other Batgirls as...Batgirl. The problematic aspects of the origin story seem like something ripe for a rewrite. Just change the story of how she got there, and then avoid some of the more ableist ideas some of the more ignorant writers fell into. Also, giving Batman a prominent support network would dovetail well with the above thematic idea.

I'd appreciate a Batman detective story. The idea every Superhero film has to end with cataclysmic stakes is something of a narrative trap that pushes the genre toward formulaic conclusions. Smaller more intimate stakes would be fairly welcome. Less Thor: the Dark World and more Spiderman:Homecoming. (Yeah, if Vulture got away it would have been unfortunate, but the planet would have kept spinning)

[Lacuna Caster]

You're absolutely right, Batman does need to punch up with the aliens - but his solo movies don't need to show him going to those lengths. Indeed, putting world-threatening stakes in those is actually a drawback, especially now that they've established Metropolis and Gotham to be more or less within eyesight of one another. When Bane is about to nuke the city again, Clark would obviously be less than accommodating about that, especially given that they've established he even cares about the petty crims that Batman was branding in BvS.
Yeah... this is kind of what I mean about Batman being in his own universe. Him and Supes would probably get along just fine, but their natural habitats are totally incompatible.


I love Oracle too, but how they got to her is just the worst.

Chalk me up as another person who'd prefer we keep Oracle as a prominent character and simply use any of the other Batgirls as...Batgirl. The problematic aspects of the origin story seem like something ripe for a rewrite. Just change the story of how she got there, and then avoid some of the more ableist ideas some of the more ignorant writers fell into. Also, giving Batman a prominent support network would dovetail well with the above thematic idea.
Agreed. I'm quite partial to Ms. Cain myself.

[Psyren]

Something to stylistically change things up a bit would be to embrace a somewhat more egalitarian view. The MCU is a place where the elites do (most) things that matter. Pulling from Wonderwoman's ending (which I felt was a more mature meditation on war than Captain America: The First Avengers) where Diana can't solve any of this on her own, would help thematically differentiate the works from the MCU juggernaut that usually focuses on the vast responsibility people with great power have. The DC universe pursuing the idea that even people with great power can't fix things, but they can inspire people at large to start making the world a better place, would both give the franchise a different identity and lend itself to a different stylistical structuring. It also lets DC riff on their own Demigods among people angle while melding that with something people can still connect to and feel validated by.

Indeed, that's a great way of putting it. I'm a little less convinced that Wonder Woman fully delivered on that vision (the third act business with punching/zapping Ares was messy, and I'm not sure what his death was meant to signify in a world that still ended up having even bigger wars later) but the overall theme of DC heroes being gods who want to identify with mortals as a contrast to Marvel's reverse ideology is sound.



Chalk me up as another person who'd prefer we keep Oracle as a prominent character and simply use any of the other Batgirls as...Batgirl. The problematic aspects of the origin story seem like something ripe for a rewrite. Just change the story of how she got there, and then avoid some of the more ableist ideas some of the more ignorant writers fell into. Also, giving Batman a prominent support network would dovetail well with the above thematic idea.

I'd be fine with that. Or if they want to use Barbara/Oracle, they can just have her already in the wheelchair and brainy, without suggesting Joker had anything to do with it. But Killing Joke, just no. The big problem with DC is that they seemingly google "Best-selling Batman/Superman stories", see stuff like Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman near the top of all those lists, and routinely conclude those need to be their template, rather than the deconstructions they are.



I'd appreciate a Batman detective story. The idea every Superhero film has to end with cataclysmic stakes is something of a narrative trap that pushes the genre toward formulaic conclusions. Smaller more intimate stakes would be fairly welcome. Less Thor: the Dark World and more Spiderman:Homecoming. (Yeah, if Vulture got away it would have been unfortunate, but the planet would have kept spinning)

Agreed. And to be clear, I wouldn't necessarily go for Man-Bat for this (he seems like he'd work best as a secondary or surprise antagonist, maybe for a mad scientist type - Hugo Strange?) I just like the general idea of a less apocalyptic villain, particularly one that Batman would have to think around as opposed to just punching. (There should be plenty of punching however, because Batman.)

[Legato Endless]

Indeed, that's a great way of putting it. I'm a little less convinced that Wonder Woman fully delivered on that vision (the third act business with punching/zapping Ares was messy, and I'm not sure what his death was meant to signify in a world that still ended up having even bigger wars later) but the overall theme of DC heroes being gods who want to identify with mortals as a contrast to Marvel's reverse ideology is sound.

That's apt. I admire the ambition and artistic intent, but the ending doesn't quite meld with the theme. I'm hoping we see refinement on this idea in Wonderwoman 2.


I'd be fine with that. Or if they want to use Barbara/Oracle, they can just have her already in the wheelchair and brainy, without suggesting Joker had anything to do with it. But Killing Joke, just no. The big problem with DC is that they seemingly google "Best-selling Batman/Superman stories", see stuff like Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman near the top of all those lists, and routinely conclude those need to be their template, rather than the deconstructions they are.

No explanation would be perfect, it's just hard to believe we'd ever get that. Unnecessary origins are like some law of gravity in Comic based works. The last X-men film devoted time during it's climax to justify to us why Professor X is bald.


Agreed. And to be clear, I wouldn't necessarily go for Man-Bat for this (he seems like he'd work best as a secondary or surprise antagonist, maybe for a mad scientist type - Hugo Strange?) I just like the general idea of a less apocalyptic villain, particularly one that Batman would have to think around as opposed to just punching. (There should be plenty of punching however, because Batman.)

Strange is pretty versatile with the ability to fit a lot of different narrative devices. He's also arguably the ideal character for DC to really push the shared universe angle, he starts off his debut looking super reasonable but with a hint of something off, setting the stage for a darker mad science development in a sequel. The key for this would be Strange can actually perform a narrative role in his first outing, and not merely exist as a 'look at me, I'm from the comics and/or will matter later!' bit of nonsense all of the MCU's imitators keep falling into.

[Lemmy]

They can keep the Killing Joke storyline. Honestly, I don't how it's any worse than Gordon being tortured and humiliated or Jason Todd being beaten to near-death and then exploded (and staying dead for decades) by Joker. Or Damian being killed by his own mother... Or even Batman having his back broken.

Trauma and heavy loss is quite common on the Bat-family (at least compared to other characters). And it's much more impactful cor Barbara to be crippled by Joker than by some minor villain or random accident. Specially she continues fighting crime ans injustice just as eagerly as she did before... She can't go jumping on rooftops, of course, but she still managed one of Batmans most valuable allies (if not the most valuable ally. Period. Lots of vigilantes can swing on hoom-shots and punch people, but no one else could do what Oracle did).

But in the interest of saving screen time, we really don't need an origin story for her... Maybe just a single sentence to allude to it in passage to another character. ("I failed to protect her once... But she wouldn't let that stop from fighting for what is right." or something...)

[Psyren]

They can keep the Killing Joke storyline. Honestly, I don't how it's any worse than Gordon being tortured and humiliated or Jason Todd being beaten to near-death and then exploded (and staying dead for decades) by Joker. Or Damian being killed by his own mother... Or even Batman having his back broken.

It's worse because Implied Rape/Sexual Assault As Motivation isn't just tacky, it's overdone to the point of cliché. They can (and indeed have) threatened the Gordons and made Joker monstrous without it.

And I might be wrong on this, but I haven't seen rape as really being Joker's MO anyway.



Trauma and heavy loss is quite common on the Bat-family (at least compared to other characters). And it's much more impactful cor Barbara to be crippled by Joker than by some minor villain or random accident. Specially she continues fighting crime ans injustice just as eagerly as she did before... She can't go jumping on rooftops, of course, but she still managed one of Batmans most valuable allies (if not the most valuable ally. Period. Lots of vigilantes can swing on hoom-shots and punch people, but no one else could do what Oracle did).

But in the interest of saving screen time, we really don't need an origin story for her... Maybe just a single sentence to allude to it in passage to another character. ("I failed to protect her once... But she wouldn't let that stop from fighting for what is right." or something...)

If you must have Joker be the cause then fine, keep the gunshot. That's the important part of Oracle's backstory anyway. The rest can die in a fire imo.

And yes, as mentioned I'm fine having no explanation at all, with her just wheeling on screen.



Strange is pretty versatile with the ability to fit a lot of different narrative devices. He's also arguably the ideal character for DC to really push the shared universe angle, he starts off his debut looking super reasonable but with a hint of something off, setting the stage for a darker mad science development in a sequel. The key for this would be Strange can actually perform a narrative role in his first outing, and not merely exist as a 'look at me, I'm from the comics and/or will matter later!' bit of nonsense all of the MCU's imitators keep falling into.

For me the best "meta-villain" would be Braniac, since he can take a punch and out-think Bats. Of course, Ultron already played that role on the MCU side, but by being an actual alien, Braniac has a chance of much better motivations than Ultron had. Alternatively, Eradicator would be great, what with his whole "I can recreate Krypton by consuming Earth" thing to give Clark a chance to show off that flashy moral compass of his. You could even combine them. Or just some other motivation all his own.

[Kitten Champion]

The problem with referencing The Killing Joke in order to subvert its ugly implications is that you're going to be ostracizing the body of fans who love that comic and rate it among the top Batman stories ever by potentially making them feel baited and suckered by the turnaround, while those who are more critical of it could easily be put off by Killing Joke-related imagery in the trailer material (because you know they'd want to put it in there) and that would spoil their enthusiasm going in.

Plus, The Killing Joke's animated movie left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths - granted the theoretical movie would be a ways out from that chronologically speaking - but I personally would want a Batgirl movie that doesn't have any of that overshadowing it.

... and just generally, either you go in full steam with that like Jessica Jones did or you think of something else, and something else is much easier. Referencing it for "Ahah you thought she'd be violated horribly but actually wasn't!" moment is not the greatest of ideas in my opinion.

Granted, otherwise, I like a lot of Bob's ideas. I do especially like his Flashpoint concept as a Back To the Future-esque comedy. I would go all out with that - like, have Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew show up in a Roger Rabbit-styled moment, throw in Mister Mxyzptlk, have the Justice League as children or gender-swapped - stuff like that. You've got a lot of potential goofiness there, why not see what you can do with it?