Hexblade dip on a Paladin?

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I'd like this character to be as effective as possible, given the choices I'm making. I'd like to play a Triton Paladin of Conquest. This character is going to be an antihero type of character, basically fighting evil for selfish reasons. A Hexblade dip at level 2 (and maybe more after my 9th Paladin level) could be an interesting choice, but I'm worried that I'd have to spread my stats too thin already since I need 13 str to multiclass out of Paladin and Triton isn't a really powerful race to begin with. I'm using a point buy.

Basically, is it feasible to delay my paladin features by 1 level and lock myself off heavy weapons for the potential to use Cha as my attack stat?

[DarkKnightJin]

Conquest or Vengeance are the oaths best suited to a Hexblade dip, when considering flavor and RP reasons.
Downside, unless you can start with 3 levels in Warlock for the Blade pact, and the rest in Paladin for.. well, Paladin-ing.. you're going to delay the extra attack for quite a while. And you won't be able to start with a Great Weapon and use Cha for hitting things.

Sword&Board is pretty much the way to go if you're going down the Hexblade route.

[CTurbo]

Hexblade dips are THE popular thing to do these days for Paladins, but honestly I wouldn't bother. You either do it early on and put off your extra attack and awesome Auras for a long time, or you do it late and have to survive with a mediocre attack stat until then. Paladins are awesome enough as is as a solo class anyway.

If you're not completely married to the idea of being a Triton, I'd suggest Fallen Aasimar instead for optimum Anti-Hero Conquest Pally.

[Elric VIII]

Hexblade also gets shield and a short rest spell slot for wrathful smite. I like a 2 level dip for invocations. I'm not super impressed with Paladin after level 10, anyway.

[Spacehamster]

Hexblade also gets shield and a short rest spell slot for wrathful smite. I like a 2 level dip for invocations. I'm not super impressed with Paladin after level 10, anyway.

11 you mean? 1d8 extra on all attacks is really good.

[strangebloke]

It's good. One level is all you need.

Hex 1/paladin 7 /hex 4/Paladin x

Pretty potent.

[Elric VIII]

11 you mean? 1d8 extra on all attacks is really good.

Actually, I don't think Improved Divine Smite is that great. It's about 9 damage per round. Once you have your level 3 spells, the class doesn't have much to offer imo. I'd rather dip into sorcerer or hexblade at that point to get more flexibility, especially with some more bonus action spells. Or Sentinel/War Caster/Booming Blade for strong BFC and tanking.

[Waazraath]

Hexblade dips are THE popular thing to do these days for Paladins, but honestly I wouldn't bother. You either do it early on and put off your extra attack and awesome Auras for a long time, or you do it late and have to survive with a mediocre attack stat until then. Paladins are awesome enough as is as a solo class anyway.

If you're not completely married to the idea of being a Triton, I'd suggest Fallen Aasimar instead for optimum Anti-Hero Conquest Pally.

I agree with the "single class pally is very strong" sentiment, as well as that the dip is hardly worth delaying extra attack and the lvl 6 aura. If I'd dip Hexblade, I'd do it at level 7. Start with 16 in Cha and Str (or Dex, depending on which is your attack stat), raise cha to 18 at 4, and at level 7, you use that sweet +4 for attack, damage and bonus to all saves. You loose nothing essental (though the Ancients pally 7 ability is that strong, that in that case I'd delay the Hexblade dip one more level).

But again, the pally works fine without it.

[Sception]

In general, for sword & board builds, paladin X / hexblade 1 is better than paladin X+1. There are exceptions, specifically character levels 5, 6, 7 (for oathes like conquest, oathbreaker, & ancients with strong auras), 18, and 20, levels when paladin grants particularly key features, but even then the gex dip grants so much that it isnt far behind, and with the exception of the level 20 feature, you'll only have a few sessions to wait for what you're missing.

In exchange, you have Hex Warrior, Shield (and a short rest recharging slot to cast it, or smite, or whatever), Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, and hexblade's curse. At every level besides the 5 levels mentioned above, that's an amazing and absolutely worthwhile trade.

It's not so overwhelming that I'd call it a must take dip, but it's pretty close.

There are some less aparent drawbacks, tho. First, you're stuck with sword & board, due to the 1st level limitations on hex warrior. Not a big drawback for pallies focused on buffing (like ancients) or debuffing (like conquest), but damage focused paladins, like oathbreaker, vengeance, or devotion tend to be, usually prefer great weapons, which would require at least three levels of hexblade. That can absolutely work, but at that point you're talking about a multiclass build, not a paladin with a dip, and you might have been better off multiclassing sorcerer.

You also need the warcaster feat to make proper use of booming blade and the shield spell. This again isnt a huge drawback for sword and board pallies who may have wanted this feat anyway, but you want it much earlier, which will delay cha advancement, temporarily offsetting the benefits of hex warrior. You can put it off, but without opp attack booming blade and panic button shield in your toolbag, there are a lot more levels where the hexblade dip doesnt quite stack up to the next level of paladin (4, 8, 9 for oathbreakers, maybe 11 & 15, though if your cha bonus is 2 points better than your strength bonus hex warrior will justify the dip even without warcaster).

While you're looking at a triton, its worth noting that vuman can't use their bonus feat to pick up warcaster since pally 1 isnt a spellcaster. Not unless they start with hexblade at level 1, which limits you to medium armor.

.....

For conquest builds in particular, the next kevel paladin always has a significant payoff. Most are not as significant as the first level of hexblade, i do still think the dip is a good choice overall, especially given the cha priority in that build, but you do notice the delay more than most other oaths. My typical suggestion would be to take it at level 10, after you already have extra attack, aura of protection, aura of conquest, either cha 20 or cha18 and warcaster, and the Fear spell.

However, the dip can absolutely work earlier, all the way down to level 2, or even level 1 if you have the stats to make medium armor work (post racial 13, 14, 14, 8, 8, 16). If you have a narrative or thematic reason to dip early, then feel free to go for it, most levels you'll still be coming out ahead, and the levels you don't you won't be far behind.

Main advice in that case is to take warcaster at first opportunity.

[Theodoxus]

Another thing to remember, a single level of hexblade only grants 1 spell slot, and no invocations. So, you're not getting the benefit of Improved Pact Weapon, which bolsters the paladins offensive capabilities.

Yeah, grabbing 3 levels of hex is definitely MC territory, but IMO, the benefits out way the drawbacks at that point. Two 2nd level spells and two invocations that shore up other weaknesses of the build.

I am curious about your hesitation to boost strength. Are you not planning on taking heavy armor? Or are you ok with 20 foot movement?

OTOH, having played both a paladin and a hexblade to 5th level, for these particular classes, extra attack is a must. Whichever way you go, I'd definitely start with one class and level it to 5 before grabbing the other class. If starting paladin, it does mean you're going to probably be suffering some on the damage department (grabbing Dueling fighting style at 2nd level would help a lot). If starting hexblade, then you could swap strength for dex and then decide when you get your 2nd level of paladin if you want to boost your defense or offense (with Defense or Dueling style).

Depending on the groups needs, if you don't need the tankiness and healing of a paladin, I'd start Hex, as it brings a bit more utility and by 3rd level, you can customize the class to fulfill exactly the needs of the party. Plus it alleviates the need for more than 13 Strength.

[Spacehamster]

Actually, I don't think Improved Divine Smite is that great. It's about 9 damage per round. Once you have your level 3 spells, the class doesn't have much to offer imo. I'd rather dip into sorcerer or hexblade at that point to get more flexibility, especially with some more bonus action spells. Or Sentinel/War Caster/Booming Blade for strong BFC and tanking.

Depends I guess, if you combine it with haste its 13,5, if you combine it with a kill with GWM on top of haste it becomes 18, action surge from MC and it becomes 27 and lets say your fighter dip is 3 champion matched with vengence paladins advantage thing it gets even more potential.
But yeah as is if not built around at all its not super strong, still potent source of constant damage tho.

[OldTrees1]

I found

2nd - 3rd level:
Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 vs Paladin 1 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +1
The former delays hexblade benefits (Eldritch Blast, Hex Warrior, Hex, the other Hex)
The latter delays Paladin spells (Cure Wounds for example) and Divine Smite

5th level:
Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +2
At 5th level you are missing Extra Attack. But you still have your ASI/Feat and Eldritch Blast gets its own version of Extra Attack at this level.

11th level:
Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +5 / Hexblade +3
Along the way the following features were delayed:

1st ASI/Feat delayed 1 level
Extra Attack replaced by Eldritich Blast at 5th and regained at 6th
Aura of Protection delayed 1 level
Oath Aura delayed 1 level
2nd level spells delated 1 level
2nd ASI/Feat delayed 3 levels

The following features were delayed beyond 11th level:

3rd level spells delayed 3+ levels
Aura of Courage (Aura of Protection does a lot of this)
Improved Divine Smite (Hex Spell does a lot of this)


Alternative 11th level:
Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +5 / Hexblade +1 / Paladin +2
Along the way the following features were delayed:

1st ASI/Feat delayed 1 level
Extra Attack replaced by Eldritich Blast at 5th and regained at 6th
Aura of Protection delayed 1 level
Oath Aura delayed 1 level
2nd level spells delated 1 level
2nd ASI/Feat delayed 2 levels
3rd level spells delayed 2 levels
Aura of Courage (Aura of Protection does a lot of this) delayed 2 levels

The following features were delayed beyond 11th level:

Improved Divine Smite (Hex Spell does a lot of this)


So I found Hexblade to have great synergy with Paladin (especially with Eldritch Blast replacing the delayed Extra Attack) and it can be worth the delayed features. However you will feel some tension over where to take the levels of Hexblade because you will be looking forward to the features of both the next Hexblade level and the next Paladin level.

[Sception]

The benefits of one level of hexblade already outweight the drawbacks at 3/4 of levels. 3+ levels of hexblade aren't competing with paladins anymore, they're competing with sorcadins, and imo mostly coming up short.

Both sorcadins and waradins will outshine pure paladins in spike damage, but can come up shy in round by round damage after resources have been expensed, and either dramatically delay or muss out entirely on higher level paladin and oath features.

This is particularly the case for conquerors who, again, have no dead levels in the paladin class. Compare a conqueror 7, hexblade 3 (asi warcaster) to a conqueror 9 hexblade 1 (asis warcaster and +2 cha) to a conqueror 10 (asis +4 cha). The multiclass has some nice tools from warlock sure, but what do they really amount to compared to just dipping or playing straight paladin?

First up, you don't want to do the whole darkness/devil's sight trick - you already impose disadvantage with frighten, and as an aura buffer & debuffer you dont want to be jumping in and out of fights, so that darkness will be causing your allies as much trouble as your opponents. Advantage on your own attacks isnt worth that trade off.

So you've got a couple invocations that are nice but not game changing. You've got two level two spells per short rest to cast spiritual weapon or level 2 armor of agathys or level 2 cause fear which is very nice, dont get me wrong the multiclass is still good and playable, but again isn't game changing.

You've got a pact blade... or do you? Conquest is a tanking build, you probably want to carry a shield for ac, in which case pact blade doesn't give you all that much over base level hex warrior. Halberd is still a decent option for conquest pally, even though you'll never have room to take pam or gwm, but probably isnt worth the added utility you could puck up from chain's familiar. Plus chain lets you grab the gift of the ever-living ones invocation, which is really good for a tanky character. If you plan to make it all the way to hexblade 12, then blade pact pays off, but if not, and even on the way to get there...

All this on top of Booming Blade as an opp attack to help punish enemies who are immune to frighten or pass their saves, eldritch blast as a potent ranged fallback (though the invocations that improve it probably arent worth it for you), hexblade's curse as a strong weapon against powerful fearless enemies, and the shield spell to cast with pally slots when you do get hit.

And you still have auras of protection and conquest, divine smite, extra attack, wrathful smite, spiritual weapon, heavy armor. Your 16 cha has really been lagging for a few levels now, but it will come up next level regardless of whether you go back to paladin or stay with hexblade. I'd honestly stay in hexblade for at least 2 more levels at this point.

You open most fights with armor of agathys already up, casting wrarhful smite or using your channel divinity or a level 2 cause fear to lock down one or two targets. Tank some hits, use your familiar for advantage, punish enemies that move away from you with booming blade, go after big guys with hexblades curse and spiritual weapon.

It's a nice suite of abilities, a perfectly playable character, but what are you missing out on?

The conqueror 9, hexblade 1 only has 1 level 1 recharging slot, not 2 level 2. So a shield instead of two aoa. A downgrade, but not a major one. And they dont have the pact boon familiar or invocations. But they have cha 18, so all their attacks, damage, auras, and dcs are 1 better, and have been for a whole level already.

And twice per day, they open encounters with Fear, a frighten-causer that leaves all others in the dust, being both AoE and inescapable for any enemy that fails the initial save. Access to Fear is almost as big as access to aura of conquest was, and while the extea 2 levels of warlock are nice, they don't outwiigh fear, let alone the +2 cha.

Now compare to the single classed pally. Their Fear is even better, since it's party friendly out to 10 feet. And, since they didnt need warcaster, their cha is already 20, so their saves and dcs are one better than even the dip character.

But their weapon attacks are no better than the multiclasser, since they still use strength. And they don't cast Shield or booming blade. And their only ranged fallback is thrown weapons. And no short rest slots. And no hexblade's curse, which forces them to lean in smiting away spell slots against tougher fear immune enemies.

But they will level into future paladin gets slightly agead of the dipper, and if the game goes all the way to level 20 they have the best capstone to look forward to.

......

All three are viable characters, but imo the single level hexblade dip comes out ahead at most levels. Hexblade is crazy front loaded, that first level does more for you than most levels of most classes, but after that it's just another class, and giving up not just one but several levels of paladin really starts to show, especially for conquest.

The deeper multiclass does eventually cast Fear on a short rest timer, which is amazing, but at that point you're 5 levels behind in paladin, the game is already at level 12, both the single class pally and the dipper already have aura of courage and improved divine smite and the single classed pally is another asi up on you, and they're both about to get improved find steed which you might never see if you go much deeper in hexblade at all.

You'll already never see your aura expansion or scornful rebuke or 5th level paladin spells.


Again, still a viable character, but at this point a very different one, even if they share a few key features.

[Sception]

I found

2nd - 3rd level:
Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 vs Paladin 1 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +1
The former delays hexblade benefits (Eldritch Blast, Hex Warrior, Hex, the other Hex)
The latter delays Paladin spells (Cure Wounds for example) and Divine Smite

5th level:
Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +2
At 5th level you are missing Extra Attack. But you still have your ASI/Feat and Eldritch Blast gets its own version of Extra Attack at this level.

11th level:
Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin +5 / Hexblade +3
.snip.
The following features were delayed beyond 11th level:

3rd level spells delayed 3+ levels
Aura of Courage (Aura of Protection does a lot of this)
Improved Divine Smite (Hex Spell does a lot of this)


A good comparison for typical paladins, but misses how aura of conquest puts greater emphasis on some of these delayed paladin features.

The third level spell Fear is absolutely huge for conquerors. Delaying it beyond level 11 is a major cost. Deeper hexblade multiclasses can eventually cast it with short rest slots, but that puts you 5 levels behind in paladin, and doesnt turn on until level 12 at the earliest.

Once you do have Fear, the fact that it immediately becomes your favorite spell makes aura of courage a big deal. Yes aura of protection helps mitigate the issue, but even so for a conquest pally, aura of courage is no ribbon, and saves a lot of animosity from party members.

Improved divine smite works on all attacks agains all targets without resource cost. Hex does not compare to that, especially for conquerors. Oath of Conquest is a tanking/control primary build, with damage as a secondary role. Your first level spell slots are almost always better spent on Shield or Wrathful Smite. Second level spell slots are more often spent on damage, but you'll probably be better served by spiritual weapon there.

Hex in general is not a good spell for conquest pallies once they have aura of conquest, so access to the spell does not mitigate delayed access to improved divine smite. And while ids isnt the most important ability even on a single classed conqueror as it benefits a secondary role, it crucially does so without redirecting resources away from your primary role. Ids is free damage, and a lot of it, in a way that hex just isnt.

[OldTrees1]

A good comparison for typical paladins, but misses how aura of conquest puts greater emphasis on some of these delayed paladin features.

My experience was from an Ancients Paladin and it shows (especially in the valuation of Paladin 7 before Hexblade 2). Thank you for mentioning specific differences that show up for Conquest Paladins.

It sounds like Conquest Paladins really want to hit Two Attacks, Paladin 6, Paladin 7, Fear (Paladin 9 or Warlock 5), Paladin 10 (because Fear has friendly fire), and extra damage (Paladin 11 or Hex*)

*Because I do think Hex still does the extra damage you want from Improved Divine Smite and my experience with it from an Ancients Paladin made it feel like the Hex damage was, in practice, just as free as the Improved Divine Smite damage.

Builds to consider for conquest:
Paladin 12 (12:0 ratio)
Paladin 2 / Warlock 1 / Paladin +8 / Warlock +1 (10:2 ratio)
Paladin 2 / Warlock 1 / Paladin +4 / Warlock +4 / Paladin +1 (7:5 ratio)

Yeah, as a result of these ratios, Conquest Paladin has less synergy with Hexblade than some of the other oaths do.

[Finlam]

It's good. One level is all you need.

Hex 1/paladin 7 /hex 4/Paladin x

Pretty potent.

Agreed.

A 1 level dip gets you:
*A short rest recharge spell slot
*The Shield spell
*Eldritch Blast
*Some spells known (level 1 and cantrip) (take Expeditious Retreat)
*Hexblade's Curse


Adding Shield to your spell list alone is worth it; the rest is just delicious gravy poured on top. If you want to optimize, 1 level of Hexblade is the way to go.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Okay, I think my plan will be Paladin 2/Hexblade 1/Paladin +7 for now. I will see how it feels before deciding on more Hexblade levels, but either way it will be no more than 3 levels.

Thanks.

[Sception]

Sounds like a plan. You can absolutely take hexblade above level 2 on a conqueror. Recharge fear at hex 5 is huge, and the hex 6 ability, while not so strong mechanically, is a ton of fun.

Its just that the trade offs do pile up, so you need to be careful about what abilities you want now, which you're willing to delay, and which you're willing to pass on. That means looking at your progression and planning things out in advance.

Especially for a conqueror, because again, no dead levels. Even otherwise forgettable parent class levels get recontextualized by oath of conquest features to be better than they are for other paladins. Focus on frighten makes save dcs more important which makes cha more important and third level spells known critical. Higher cha and dcs in turn make other high level paladin spells known more valuable. Tanking gocus makes hp more significant, and lay on hands more valuable. Durability to attacks makes debuffs more attractive against you, which makes cleansing touch more valuable. Concentration based control effects make you a more attractive target for attacks (and your aura mught not even allow frightened enemies to attack anyone else), which makes your level 15 oath feature even better than it already looks. Etc etc etc.

Which is not to say that conquerors cant or shouldnt multiclass, whether shallow dips or longer forays. Its just that multiclassing for conquerors works the way multiclassing should work, as a trade off, rather than how optimization instincts want it to work, as a synergistic cumulative multiplier. Bard, hexblade, or especially sorcerer are that sort of optimized multiclass for regular, damage oriented paladins, but again, for conqurors damage is a secondary role.

Things might change in the future. Fear is a broad concept capable of sustaining multiple builds accross several classes. One could easily imagine a dread witch style multiclass for warlock, sorcerer, or bard, or even for wizard or cleric, that might synergize with conqueror. Long death monk comes close, but the multiclassing stat requirements are too great and the relevant feature too deep.

Maybe one day we'll see a build for some other class where multiclassing in actually makes a conqueror better at fear based control tanking than however many more paladin levels. But for now there is no such build, and multiclassing is something conquest paladins do for fun or style or versatility, not something that helps optimize their primary gimmick.

Even the hexblade 1 dip, good as it is, is less about enhancing your strengths and more about shoring up weaknesses, in the form of reduced madness, better ranged fallback, and more tools to damage (curse) or tank (shield, booming blade) enemies who are immune to or save against frighten.

[BaconAwesome]

Agreed.

A 1 level dip gets you:
*A short rest recharge spell slot
*The Shield spell
*Eldritch Blast
*Some spells known (level 1 and cantrip) (take Expeditious Retreat)
*Hexblade's Curse


Adding Shield to your spell list alone is worth it; the rest is just delicious gravy poured on top. If you want to optimize, 1 level of Hexblade is the way to go.

It also gets you a charisma based attack with your primary weapon - if a 16 cha paladin takes it, a 1 level hexblade dip is basically 2 extra ASIs AND maxing both your combat and spellcasting stats by level 9 (on top of the warlock gravy) in exchange for giving up your capstone, committing to sword and board, and delaying your paladin abilities one level, which looks tasty if you're already leaning towards sword and board.