What teh **** lives on the moon of Endor

[Obscuraphile]

So I was watching Return of the Jedi the other day because May the fourth and it was on in the break room, and a thought occurred to me. In the scene where the gang minus Leia gets captured by the ewoks, I realized that the counterweight on the net trap must have been MASSIVE, considering it lifted at least 500 lbs. of creature off the ground. Ergo what on Endor were the ewoks hunting before two random humans, a pair of droids, and a wookie wandered into their midst?

[An Enemy Spy]

I'm sure there's an EU book or comic centered around it, just like every other minor detail from the Star Wars movies.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, as I recall off the top my of my head in Legends canon, there ARE all sorts of large and vicious predators (of the sort that would cheerfully eat Ewoks) on Endor.

hamishspence hopefully will poke his head in; he can probably cite chapter and verse, his Star Wars knowledge is encyclopedic to the point Wookiepedia probably asks him questions...!

[Mordar]

Space Cows? They weigh over 1.0 wookies, and barbecue nicely.

[Obscuraphile]

Space Cows? They weigh over 1.0 wookies, and barbecue nicely.

Space cows I can get behind, but jungle space cows? Now you're just being silly.

[JoshL]

that depends on how canon the Ewoks cartoons/comics are. There's LOTS of things living on Endor (as there should be, given that it's a forest). They also have places on Endor that are NOT forest, so that doesn't quite fit with Lucas' mono-ecosystems.

I recently rewatched the cartoons, and they hold up way better than they should, but then again, there's lots of writing by Paul Dini (see also: Batman The Animated Series), so that probably explains a bit of that. I'm also like Ewoks better than most people, so I might be biased.

[Berserk Mecha]

Clearly, someone hasn't seen the Ewok movies, otherwise you'd have known that the Gorax (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gorax/Legends) lives on Endor. Aside from that, I imagine that a forested ecosystem can support lots of large herbivores.

[Blackhawk748]

Clearly, someone hasn't seen the Ewok movies, otherwise you'd have known that the Gorax (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gorax/Legends) lives on Endor. Aside from that, I imagine that a forested ecosystem can support lots of large herbivores.

Yup, Goraxes are a thing and are horrific. Also Boar Wolves and the Rearing Spider

[Mordar]

Space cows I can get behind, but jungle space cows? Now you're just being silly.

Well, jungle space cows would be silly. But they were clearly in a non-equatorial/tropical zone, and while it may have qualified as a rain forest, the lower level of ground cover mix of trees suggests forest.

And everyone knows there are forest space cows.

- M

[LaZodiac]

Clearly, something that the space bears routinely capture and kill and eat.

No wonder they were so effective against the Stormtroopers.

[An Enemy Spy]

that depends on how canon the Ewoks cartoons/comics are. There's LOTS of things living on Endor (as there should be, given that it's a forest). They also have places on Endor that are NOT forest, so that doesn't quite fit with Lucas' mono-ecosystems.

I recently rewatched the cartoons, and they hold up way better than they should, but then again, there's lots of writing by Paul Dini (see also: Batman The Animated Series), so that probably explains a bit of that. I'm also like Ewoks better than most people, so I might be biased.

Places that are NOT forest? What kind of insane backwards world is this that has ecological diversity? Was I misled when I was told that this was the forest moon of Endor?

[Obscuraphile]

Well, jungle space cows would be silly. But they were clearly in a non-equatorial/tropical zone, and while it may have qualified as a rain forest, the lower level of ground cover mix of trees suggests forest.

And everyone knows there are forest space cows.

- M

Ahh, of course! How could I be so foolish


Clearly, something that the space bears routinely capture and kill and eat.

No wonder they were so effective against the Stormtroopers.

Do we have height and weight statistics for ewoks?

Regardless I personally believe that Darthsanddroids #1445 is explains they could beat stormtroopers.

[DataNinja]

...to the point Wookiepedia probably asks him questions...!

Wookieepedia. Two 'e's

Sorry, I know it's not my job, but I couldn't resist.

[Giggling Ghast]

Yup, Goraxes are a thing and are horrific. Also Boar Wolves and the Rearing Spider

Also the Condor Dragon. Which isn’t as nasty as the Gorax, but is still pretty mean.

[Corvus]

Nothing lives on Endor anymore. All life was wiped out by the cataclysmic rain of debris on it after the Death Star exploded ;)

[Reddish Mage]

Nothing lives on Endor anymore. All life was wiped out by the cataclysmic rain of debris on it after the Death Star exploded ;)

People who say that don’t account for all that space wind that can pick up and anytime and divert the materials to the next star system, where it killed the jungle space cows.

That’s the real reason there are no jungle space cows. Except for that one resistance pilot in The Force Awakens. He escaped.

[hamishspence]

his Star Wars knowledge is encyclopedic to the point Wookiepedia probably asks him questions...!

I'm not actually a member of Wookieepedia - but I have managed to get the occasional page modified via comments on the Talk pages for some articles.


that depends on how canon the Ewoks cartoons/comics are. There's LOTS of things living on Endor (as there should be, given that it's a forest). They also have places on Endor that are NOT forest, so that doesn't quite fit with Lucas' mono-ecosystems.

I recently rewatched the cartoons, and they hold up way better than they should, but then again, there's lots of writing by Paul Dini (see also: Batman The Animated Series), so that probably explains a bit of that. I'm also like Ewoks better than most people, so I might be biased.
Clearly, someone hasn't seen the Ewok movies, otherwise you'd have known that the Gorax (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gorax/Legends) lives on Endor. Aside from that, I imagine that a forested ecosystem can support lots of large herbivores.
Yup, Goraxes are a thing and are horrific. Also Boar Wolves and the Rearing Spider


Also the Condor Dragon. Which isn’t as nasty as the Girax, but is still pretty mean.
As you say, the Ewoks cartoons and Ewoks movies had lots of stuff - but they are currently Legends, and not part of the "newcanon".

However, the newcanon draws on Legends for things. Reference Books like Ultimate Star Wars do mention creatures like Goraxes. Ewoks cartoon characters like Princess Kneesaa, and Asha, have appeared in newcanon media (cartoons, novelizations).


Clearly, something that the space bears routinely capture and kill and eat.

No wonder they were so effective against the Stormtroopers.

In the newcanon cartoon Forces of Destiny (short scenes about 8 minutes long, from all eras with cartoons and movies) one of the most recent, (Traps & Tribulations) is a scene on Endor with a Gorax. It's taken out of action via swinging logs, and Leia says "So that's why they had those traps". So "they routinely have to deal with Goraxes (via traps)" is a thing.


hamishspence hopefully will poke his head in; he can probably cite chapter and verse,
If you want chapter and verse
:smallbiggrin:


Nothing lives on Endor anymore. All life was wiped out by the cataclysmic rain of debris on it after the Death Star exploded ;)

then, regarding the Death Star's "rain of debris" - Complete Locations (A Legends book that was reprinted with small changes to bring it into line with the newcanon) which was originally written with "consultation from" the same guy that came up with the theory of Endor's devastation (Curtis Saxton) had this to say.

Page 162:The Aftermath of Victory

"The explosion of the second Death Star sends a rain of meteoric debris toward the Forest Moon, but the rebel fleet is able to deploy shields and tractor beams to deflect debris away from their strike team on the surface. The morning after the battle, rebel forces scramble to destroy an Imperial base on the far side of the moon."

[Corvus]

Been a while since I last watched RotJ, but isn't debris show burning up in Endor's atmosphere at the end?

[hamishspence]

Been a while since I last watched RotJ, but isn't debris show burning up in Endor's atmosphere at the end?

It is. Possibly the rebels intercepted all the "lethally large" stuff before it actually hit, but let the "harmlessly small" stuff through.

The Rebel fleet is shown having fled away from the DS2 and toward Endor immediately before the DS2 blew - so they're in a position to stop stuff coming their way.

[factotum]

The explosion of the second Death Star sends a rain of meteoric debris toward the Forest Moon, but the rebel fleet is able to deploy shields and tractor beams to deflect debris away from their strike team on the surface.

Saving the small area occupied by their strike team isn't the same as saving the entire moon from millions of tonnes of debris burning up in the atmosphere, though?

[Peelee]

Wookieepedia. Two 'e's


Good man.:smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Saving the small area occupied by their strike team isn't the same as saving the entire moon from millions of tonnes of debris burning up in the atmosphere, though?

Maybe not, but every pic of the Forest Moon shown after ROTJ has shown healthy forest.

If they managed to adequately protect the entire exposed hemisphere - then this works.

[deuterio12]

It is. Possibly the rebels intercepted all the "lethally large" stuff before it actually hit, but let the "harmlessly small" stuff through.

The Rebel fleet is shown having fled away from the DS2 and toward Endor immediately before the DS2 blew - so they're in a position to stop stuff coming their way.

There's a short comic where an ex-stormtrooper that was assigned to the moon of Endor talks about the "horror" of fighting the Ewoks guerilla tactics all the time until the rebels show up to deal the killing blow, but finishes with a smile of satisfaction because he thinks the ewoks would've then been obliterated by the falling debris of the death star MK II. Then somebody else at the bar points out the rebels indeed destroyed the bigger pieces of debris.

[Delicious Taffy]

Ewoks are evil little jerks. It wouldn't surprise me if they built those traps to completely demolish deer-sized game.

[Fyraltari]

Most importantly, that thing is baited by meat. That's a huge predator.

[Peelee]

Most importantly, that thing is baited by meat. That's a huge predator.

Or scavenger.

[Brother Oni]

I vaguely remember a pair of rancors being used as Ewok mounts on Endor in one of the old EU books.

[Fyraltari]

Or scavenger.

Pure scavengers are quite rare. The rule of thumb is the bigger the animal the smaller the odds of it being a pure scavenger.

Plus it's Star Wars, you think they are gonna pass on having yet another man-eating monster?

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Saving the small area occupied by their strike team isn't the same as saving the entire moon from millions of tonnes of debris burning up in the atmosphere, though?

Depends on how well the Death Star broke up. Endor's gravity and atmospheric density is shown to be similar to Earth's, and anything below a certain size that hits our atmosphere burns up harmlessly. If the DS breaks up well, there would only be a few peices large enough to worry about even hitting the surface, and those the fleet can easily deal with.

The rest become a harmless meteor shower. Or, as the Ewoks may call it, "oooooo, aaaaaaah."

[Mordar]

Pure scavengers are quite rare. The rule of thumb is the bigger the animal the smaller the odds of it being a pure scavenger.

Plus it's Star Wars, you think they are gonna pass on having yet another man-eating monster?

Have you seen the teeth on a forest space cow? Clearly omnivores... :smalltongue:

- M

[lt_murgen]

Star Wars Forces of Destiny are canon, so the answer is the Gorax:

https://youtu.be/d9gk3JMMHRY

[hamishspence]

Depends on how well the Death Star broke up. Endor's gravity and atmospheric density is shown to be similar to Earth's, and anything below a certain size that hits our atmosphere burns up harmlessly. If the DS breaks up well, there would only be a few peices large enough to worry about even hitting the surface, and those the fleet can easily deal with.


It's also a lot smaller (in both newcanon and late-period Legends) than the writer of the Endor Holocaust Theory has it. He retconned it to 900 km (from 160km) - but later authors restored the old figure.

The newcanon has settled on a slightly bigger 200 km - still about 1/100 the volume of his version.
Star Wars Forces of Destiny are canon, so the answer is the Gorax:

https://youtu.be/d9gk3JMMHRY

Yup.


In the newcanon cartoon Forces of Destiny (short scenes about 8 minutes long, from all eras with cartoons and movies) one of the most recent, (Traps & Tribulations) is a scene on Endor with a Gorax. It's taken out of action via swinging logs, and Leia says "So that's why they had those traps". So "they routinely have to deal with Goraxes (via traps)" is a thing.

Though other Legends creatures have been mentioned in newcanon works as well.

[Berserk Mecha]

Remember that it's called the forest moon of Endor. That implies that Endor orbits a large planet. Could the second Death Star have been in a point in its orbit when it exploded where the gravity from the planet pulled most of the debris towards it? Otherwise, the debris could have been small enough to burn up in the atmosphere.

[Lord Joeltion]

I vaguely remember a pair of rancors being used as Ewok mounts on Endor in one of the old EU books.

Ewoks are awesome like possums. But with lots of spike traps.

Related: this (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11126/111265303/4931059-ewok+team.png) is why new canon will never compare to old canon. As if a million potential characters cried in terror, and were suddenly retconned.

[hamishspence]

Remember that it's called the forest moon of Endor. That implies that Endor orbits a large planet. Could the second Death Star have been in a point in its orbit when it exploded where the gravity from the planet pulled most of the debris towards it? Otherwise, the debris could have been small enough to burn up in the atmosphere.

If the planet was that close, it would have been visible during the battle. The lack of visibility suggests that the planet may be some way away, possibly on the far side of the forest moon. Perhaps an elliptical orbit? The shot of the Star Destroyers arriving at the very start of the movie, does show a small (far away?) orb in the background.

[Peelee]

Remember that it's called the forest moon of Endor. That implies that Endor orbits a large planet. Could the second Death Star have been in a point in its orbit when it exploded where the gravity from the planet pulled most of the debris towards it? Otherwise, the debris could have been small enough to burn up in the atmosphere.


Endor (also known as the Forest Moon of Endor or the Sanctuary Moon) was a small forested moon that orbited the Outer Rim planet of the same name

Anyway, the Death Star was remarkably close to the forest moon. So much so (and in conjunction with other things in the series) that we should really ignore any hard physics regarding it and just take at face value what we're told. So no, it all fell to the forest moon.


If the planet was that close, it would have been visible during the battle. The lack of visibility suggests that the planet may be some way away, possibly on the far side of the forest moon. Perhaps an elliptical orbit? The shot of the Star Destroyers arriving at the very start of the movie, does show a small (far away?) orb in the background.

All orbits are ellipses, since a circle is an ellipse. And, to make a better point, virtually all orbits are non-circular ellipses.

[Rakaydos]

Star wars has a lot of fridge horror with how casually it handles man-eating megafauna. Sure, giant skeletons in the tatoeene desert, an animal call that sends armed midgets fleeing and leaving the operational speedercraft behind. The Jawa Sandcrawler itself, intimidatingly large, is big for a reason- they cant just use multiple smaller vehicals. "That's not impossible, I used to shoot womp rats in my T16 back home, they arnt much bigger than 2 meters." The size of the traps the ewoks use is more of the same, and the rancor, arena beasts in AotC, and riding beasts in RotS and Last Jedi (and on Onderon, in Clone Wars) are just smaller examples that can be captured or domesticated.

[hamishspence]

All orbits are ellipses, since a circle is an ellipse. And, to make a better point, virtually all orbits are non-circular ellipses.

The point is, at least in the context of Legends, some shots show a fairly large silver-red planet dominating the sky of the forest moon.

If it's the same object as that very small, slightly reddish orb in the background of the "Vader's shuttle arrives at the start of ROTJ" shot -- then it must be a fairly stretched elliptical orbit of the moon round the planet - more like Halley's Comet orbiting our sun, than a near-circular ellipse.

In the context of the ROTJ movie itself, it's hard to tell for sure if that was the Forest Moon's Primary - but it's still, visually, rather unobtrusive.

[Peelee]

The point is, at least in the context of Legends, some shots show a fairly large silver-red planet dominating the sky of the forest moon.

If it's the same object as that very small, slightly reddish orb in the background of the "Vader's shuttle arrives at the start of ROTJ" shot -- then it must be a fairly stretched elliptical orbit of the moon round the planet - more like Halley's Comet orbiting our sun, than a near-circular ellipse.

In the context of the ROTJ movie itself, it's hard to tell for sure if that was the Forest Moon's Primary - but it's still, visually, rather unobtrusive.

Yeah, that's the "other things in the series" that I talked about regarding leaving real physics in the dust.

[factotum]

Depends on how well the Death Star broke up. Endor's gravity and atmospheric density is shown to be similar to Earth's, and anything below a certain size that hits our atmosphere burns up harmlessly.

Yeah, but only a few of those things hit our atmosphere every day. If you had a heck of a lot of them (from, say, the low orbit explosion of a moon-sized space station) then the mere fact of them burning up in the atmosphere would raise the temperature, quite possibly to the point that the entire forest moon went up in flames, even if not a single piece of debris reached the ground intact.

[Fyraltari]

If the planet was that close, it would have been visible during the battle. The lack of visibility suggests that the planet may be some way away, possibly on the far side of the forest moon. Perhaps an elliptical orbit? The shot of the Star Destroyers arriving at the very start of the movie, does show a small (far away?) orb in the background.

I suspect the film does not show the planet to avoid looking too much like a rehash of the Battle of Yavin.


Star Wars Forces of Destiny are canon, so the answer is the Gorax:

https://youtu.be/d9gk3JMMHRY
Yeah but according to FoD the Ewok didn't eat the stormtroopers at the feast so I propose we ignore it.

[Knaight]

Yeah, but only a few of those things hit our atmosphere every day. If you had a heck of a lot of them (from, say, the low orbit explosion of a moon-sized space station) then the mere fact of them burning up in the atmosphere would raise the temperature, quite possibly to the point that the entire forest moon went up in flames, even if not a single piece of debris reached the ground intact.

Raising the temperature of a moon or planet by directly imparting energy (as opposed to screwing with energy absorption and retention variables) is extremely difficult. Some quick math - the mass of earth's atmosphere is about 5*10^18 kg, the specific heat of air (as in the particular mixture of mostly nitrogen and oxygen) at constant volume is 0.718 kJ/(kg*K), and this means that to temporarily increase temperature by even one degree you need about 3.5*10^18 kJ - and that's assuming an instantaneous dump into the atmosphere, without it going into the lithosphere and its vastly higher heat capacity or just being radiated back out.

Meanwhile the potential energy gap between the surface of a planet and an object an infinite distance away is calculated with U=MGm/r. G is 6.67*10^-11, the mass of earth is about 6*10^24 kg, and the radius of earth is 6.371*10^6 meters. This works out to about 6.3*10^5 kJ/kg, not counting kinetic energy.

This means that a whopping 5.6*10^12 kg of material need to incinerate in atmosphere, instantly, to raise the temperature one degree temporarily. Meanwhile the moon is only 7*10^22 kg. The death star is mostly hollow, which likely knocks off an order of magnitude or two. Call it 10^21 kg, to split the difference a bit. So, For every kg of death star 5.6*10^-9 need to hit Endor to get that 1 degree.

This gets us back to distance. The cross sectional area of Earth is technically affected by incoming velocity. The death star blew up incredibly quickly, going to double its size within a second, at which point the actual cross sectional area is a pretty good proxy, working out to about 1.3*10^8 km^2. Thus, the surface area of a sphere around the death star of 2.28*10^16 km^2 will produce that result. That's a distance of 4.3*10^7 km. This sounds like a lot, until you realize that it's only 0.3 AU.

The death star might have been that close, but remember that this only gets you one degree, and assumes no energy loss from the atmosphere to anything else. It doesn't move the equilibrium at all, and given how fast the various thermal processes are that degree would vanish near instantly. Increasing temperature more than a degree drastically increases energy requirements, which means it has to be yet closer (in proportion to 1/r^2). These atmospheric burning events actually taking time drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer. The death star pieces moving at different speeds and thus hitting Endor with a delay drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer.

In short - the energy deposited through atmospheric burning alone probably isn't anywhere near enough to do meaningful damage. That takes an impact.

[Blackhawk748]

Star wars has a lot of fridge horror with how casually it handles man-eating megafauna. Sure, giant skeletons in the tatoeene desert, an animal call that sends armed midgets fleeing and leaving the operational speedercraft behind. The Jawa Sandcrawler itself, intimidatingly large, is big for a reason- they cant just use multiple smaller vehicals. "That's not impossible, I used to shoot womp rats in my T16 back home, they arnt much bigger than 2 meters." The size of the traps the ewoks use is more of the same, and the rancor, arena beasts in AotC, and riding beasts in RotS and Last Jedi (and on Onderon, in Clone Wars) are just smaller examples that can be captured or domesticated.

The call was that of a Krayt Dragon if you're curious

[Aotrs Commander]

Raising the temperature of a moon or planet by directly imparting energy (as opposed to screwing with energy absorption and retention variables) is extremely difficult. Some quick math - the mass of earth's atmosphere is about 5*10^18 kg, the specific heat of air (as in the particular mixture of mostly nitrogen and oxygen) at constant volume is 0.718 kJ/(kg*K), and this means that to temporarily increase temperature by even one degree you need about 3.5*10^18 kJ - and that's assuming an instantaneous dump into the atmosphere, without it going into the lithosphere and its vastly higher heat capacity or just being radiated back out.

Meanwhile the potential energy gap between the surface of a planet and an object an infinite distance away is calculated with U=MGm/r. G is 6.67*10^-11, the mass of earth is about 6*10^24 kg, and the radius of earth is 6.371*10^6 meters. This works out to about 6.3*10^5 kJ/kg, not counting kinetic energy.

This means that a whopping 5.6*10^12 kg of material need to incinerate in atmosphere, instantly, to raise the temperature one degree temporarily. Meanwhile the moon is only 7*10^22 kg. The death star is mostly hollow, which likely knocks off an order of magnitude or two. Call it 10^21 kg, to split the difference a bit. So, For every kg of death star 5.6*10^-9 need to hit Endor to get that 1 degree.

This gets us back to distance. The cross sectional area of Earth is technically affected by incoming velocity. The death star blew up incredibly quickly, going to double its size within a second, at which point the actual cross sectional area is a pretty good proxy, working out to about 1.3*10^8 km^2. Thus, the surface area of a sphere around the death star of 2.28*10^16 km^2 will produce that result. That's a distance of 4.3*10^7 km. This sounds like a lot, until you realize that it's only 0.3 AU.

The death star might have been that close, but remember that this only gets you one degree, and assumes no energy loss from the atmosphere to anything else. It doesn't move the equilibrium at all, and given how fast the various thermal processes are that degree would vanish near instantly. Increasing temperature more than a degree drastically increases energy requirements, which means it has to be yet closer (in proportion to 1/r^2). These atmospheric burning events actually taking time drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer. The death star pieces moving at different speeds and thus hitting Endor with a delay drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer.

In short - the energy deposited through atmospheric burning alone probably isn't anywhere near enough to do meaningful damage. That takes an impact.

As most of the time, when I do maths like this on a thread, nearly everyone cries about how filthy maths is ruining their whatever, so I would like to say thank you for this, because at least one member of the audience appreciates it....

[Peelee]

Look at that filthy maths ruining my whatever.

[hamishspence]

Yeah but according to FoD the Ewok didn't eat the stormtroopers at the feast.

It shows them trying to eat captured stormtroopers after the feast. And being stopped by the Rebels.

It may have been a case of "Rebels stopped them from killing and eating stormtroopers for the feast itself - but they failed to stop them from seeing them as a valid food source - hence their having to continue rescuing stormtroopers from Ewoks."

[factotum]

This works out to about 6.3*10^5 kJ/kg, not counting kinetic energy.

Was with you right up until this point. Why are you ignoring kinetic energy, when it's by far the largest component here? Those bits of debris are moving *fast*, as you pretty much admit yourself later in your post when you talk about how rapidly the Death Star expanded when it blew up.

[Knaight]

Was with you right up until this point. Why are you ignoring kinetic energy, when it's by far the largest component here? Those bits of debris are moving *fast*, as you pretty much admit yourself later in your post when you talk about how rapidly the Death Star expanded when it blew up.

Mostly because we don't have those numbers, so the calculation is made with the numbers we do have. On top of that neglecting kinetic energy is almost certainly a more minor effect than neglecting heat transfer at higher energy, given that it scales with T^4.

[Doorhandle]

I'm sure there's an EU book or comic centered around it, just like every other minor detail from the Star Wars movies.

I think I own that book. :smallredface:

Edit: Probably was just Ninja'd by everyone, but-
According to the "The Wildlife of Star Wars," There are the following creatures that fit:


Blurrg: Think a dopey-looking, neckless theropod and you're pretty close. Used as beast of burden by marauders, the local human tribes. Dumb as a brick and as slack-jawed as you would expect of that description.

Boar-Wolves: Carnivorous boarlike creatures the size of a rhino that eat anything smaller than themselves. Used as pets by the Gorax, a gigantic, hairy, sapient and malicious creature(think "Giant wookie on even more steroids") that lives in caves.

Condor-Dragons: Flying "reptavians" that look like the bald, bastard sons of Condors and dragons (duh.) 6 limbs, carnivorous, snatch up prey (like ewoks) in the handlike front-limbs.

Ewok ponies: Horses. Except for ewoks.

Giant cave spiders: The only thing on this list more self-explanatory than the ewok ponies.



Nothing else it describes is potentially big enough for this list: so i'd say it's a boar-wolf, Blurrg, or pony trap. Condor-dragons are noted to scavenge, but I still think they're too airborne, and the Goarax is probably too smart to be fooled.

However, I will note that the imperials have been stomping around in ewok territory for a while, so the angry space plushies have probably taken offence. I'd say it probably is a human trap, designed to capture a squad full of stormtroopers.

Also, that the film-creators may not have thought this hard about the trap, but why let that stop us? :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

wookie

Wookiee. 2 E's.

[Wookieetank]

Depends on how well the Death Star broke up. Endor's gravity and atmospheric density is shown to be similar to Earth's, and anything below a certain size that hits our atmosphere burns up harmlessly. If the DS breaks up well, there would only be a few peices large enough to worry about even hitting the surface, and those the fleet can easily deal with.

The rest become a harmless meteor shower. Or, as the Ewoks may call it, "oooooo, aaaaaaah."

If the imagery from EP IV & VI is anything to go by, the Deathstars seems to be rather effectively incinerated from their explosive demises. That and physics if off in a corner weeping uncontrollably in the SW-verse, so it was never an issue for me (although later books in the SW EU did use Deathstar debris on Endor to hide secret bases under). So ya' know, real internally consistent there. SW has some very Diskworldy moments at time, and you just have to roll with it.

[Peelee]

If the imagery from EP IV & VI is anything to go by, the Deathstars seems to be rather effectively incinerated from their explosive demises. That and physics if off in a corner weeping uncontrollably in the SW-verse, so it was never an issue for me (although later books in the SW EU did use Deathstar debris on Endor to hide secret bases under). So ya' know, real internally consistent there. SW has some very Diskworldy moments at time, and you just have to roll with it.

Imean, the Death Stars are ridiculously big. From the scale we see, massive pieces would still be nearly indistinguishable for us to see. We're pretty far away to begin with, and DS2 is (at the low end of the conflicting sources) 160km in diameter. Tiny specs that we see can still equate to massive pieces.

[Leewei]

Raising the temperature of a moon or planet by directly imparting energy (as opposed to screwing with energy absorption and retention variables) is extremely difficult. Some quick math - the mass of earth's atmosphere is about 5*10^18 kg, the specific heat of air (as in the particular mixture of mostly nitrogen and oxygen) at constant volume is 0.718 kJ/(kg*K), and this means that to temporarily increase temperature by even one degree you need about 3.5*10^18 kJ - and that's assuming an instantaneous dump into the atmosphere, without it going into the lithosphere and its vastly higher heat capacity or just being radiated back out.

Meanwhile the potential energy gap between the surface of a planet and an object an infinite distance away is calculated with U=MGm/r. G is 6.67*10^-11, the mass of earth is about 6*10^24 kg, and the radius of earth is 6.371*10^6 meters. This works out to about 6.3*10^5 kJ/kg, not counting kinetic energy.

This means that a whopping 5.6*10^12 kg of material need to incinerate in atmosphere, instantly, to raise the temperature one degree temporarily. Meanwhile the moon is only 7*10^22 kg. The death star is mostly hollow, which likely knocks off an order of magnitude or two. Call it 10^21 kg, to split the difference a bit. So, For every kg of death star 5.6*10^-9 need to hit Endor to get that 1 degree.

This gets us back to distance. The cross sectional area of Earth is technically affected by incoming velocity. The death star blew up incredibly quickly, going to double its size within a second, at which point the actual cross sectional area is a pretty good proxy, working out to about 1.3*10^8 km^2. Thus, the surface area of a sphere around the death star of 2.28*10^16 km^2 will produce that result. That's a distance of 4.3*10^7 km. This sounds like a lot, until you realize that it's only 0.3 AU.

The death star might have been that close, but remember that this only gets you one degree, and assumes no energy loss from the atmosphere to anything else. It doesn't move the equilibrium at all, and given how fast the various thermal processes are that degree would vanish near instantly. Increasing temperature more than a degree drastically increases energy requirements, which means it has to be yet closer (in proportion to 1/r^2). These atmospheric burning events actually taking time drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer. The death star pieces moving at different speeds and thus hitting Endor with a delay drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer.

In short - the energy deposited through atmospheric burning alone probably isn't anywhere near enough to do meaningful damage. That takes an impact.

I like the math here. At the same time, we have a good example of exactly this sort of thing happening here on good old Earth:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-happened-seconds-hours-weeks-after-dino-killing-asteroid-hit-earth-180960032/

If a six mile chunk of rock can do this, you'd think Death Star debris could as well.

[Rakaydos]

The call was that of a Krayt Dragon if you're curious

I was sticking with just what we saw in the cinima. What it's called doesnt matter- the fact that the jawas run away on foot rather than jacking Luke's ride, assuming they melieve tha call and want to survive, implies a small car does not measurable increase their chance of survival.

[Peelee]

I was sticking with just what we saw in the cinima. What it's called doesnt matter- the fact that the jawas run away on foot rather than jacking Luke's ride, assuming they melieve tha call and want to survive, implies a small car does not measurable increase their chance of survival.

We didn't see Jawas in that scene. We saw sand people, who have sticks and ride animals. We are given no indication they even know how to operate a speeder.

Imean, if we're sticking with just what we saw in the cinema, and all.

[Mordar]

We didn't see Jawas in that scene. We saw sand people, who have sticks and ride animals. We are given no indication they even know how to operate a speeder.

Imean, if we're sticking with just what we saw in the cinema, and all.

We also know they can work guns. But that does come laterbefore.

- M

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'm sure there's an EU book or comic centered around it, just like every other minor detail from the Star Wars movies.

There were two full live-action movies about it. Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor. And apparently that was on top of an animated series called Star Wars: Ewoks.

[Knaight]

I like the math here. At the same time, we have a good example of exactly this sort of thing happening here on good old Earth:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-happened-seconds-hours-weeks-after-dino-killing-asteroid-hit-earth-180960032/

If a six mile chunk of rock can do this, you'd think Death Star debris could as well.

That's an example of actual impact though - it very much didn't just burn up in the atmosphere. Death star fragments doing heavy damage on impact is pretty much expected, it was the burning in atmosphere that seemed potentially off, mostly because I'm familiar with just how much energy is in temperature change as compared to kinetic and potential energy systems (as a rule).

[hamishspence]

Regarding what the traps are 4 - I think the net trap looks a bit too small to trap a Gorax. Probably aimed at one of the smaller predators, like the boar-wolves.

The swinging log traps hit together so high off the ground that they seem aimed only at Gorax, by contrast.

[Leewei]

That's an example of actual impact though - it very much didn't just burn up in the atmosphere. Death star fragments doing heavy damage on impact is pretty much expected, it was the burning in atmosphere that seemed potentially off, mostly because I'm familiar with just how much energy is in temperature change as compared to kinetic and potential energy systems (as a rule).
Take another look at the Smithsonian article -- it covers secondary effects beyond the initial cataclysmic impact. Ejecta spraying out and falling to Earth again turned our planet's surface into a pizza oven for a few days. This is what I'd compare to Death Star debris-induced atmospheric heating.

[Rockphed]

Raising the temperature of a moon or planet by directly imparting energy (as opposed to screwing with energy absorption and retention variables) is extremely difficult. Some quick math - the mass of earth's atmosphere is about 5*10^18 kg, the specific heat of air (as in the particular mixture of mostly nitrogen and oxygen) at constant volume is 0.718 kJ/(kg*K), and this means that to temporarily increase temperature by even one degree you need about 3.5*10^18 kJ - and that's assuming an instantaneous dump into the atmosphere, without it going into the lithosphere and its vastly higher heat capacity or just being radiated back out.

Meanwhile the potential energy gap between the surface of a planet and an object an infinite distance away is calculated with U=MGm/r. G is 6.67*10^-11, the mass of earth is about 6*10^24 kg, and the radius of earth is 6.371*10^6 meters. This works out to about 6.3*10^5 kJ/kg, not counting kinetic energy.

This means that a whopping 5.6*10^12 kg of material need to incinerate in atmosphere, instantly, to raise the temperature one degree temporarily. Meanwhile the moon is only 7*10^22 kg. The death star is mostly hollow, which likely knocks off an order of magnitude or two. Call it 10^21 kg, to split the difference a bit. So, For every kg of death star 5.6*10^-9 need to hit Endor to get that 1 degree.

This gets us back to distance. The cross sectional area of Earth is technically affected by incoming velocity. The death star blew up incredibly quickly, going to double its size within a second, at which point the actual cross sectional area is a pretty good proxy, working out to about 1.3*10^8 km^2. Thus, the surface area of a sphere around the death star of 2.28*10^16 km^2 will produce that result. That's a distance of 4.3*10^7 km. This sounds like a lot, until you realize that it's only 0.3 AU.

The death star might have been that close, but remember that this only gets you one degree, and assumes no energy loss from the atmosphere to anything else. It doesn't move the equilibrium at all, and given how fast the various thermal processes are that degree would vanish near instantly. Increasing temperature more than a degree drastically increases energy requirements, which means it has to be yet closer (in proportion to 1/r^2). These atmospheric burning events actually taking time drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer. The death star pieces moving at different speeds and thus hitting Endor with a delay drastically increase energy requirements, which also means it has to be yet closer.

In short - the energy deposited through atmospheric burning alone probably isn't anywhere near enough to do meaningful damage. That takes an impact.

The 200km diameter number for the DS2, and 90% air, and made entirely of steel give us 3,372,950,000,000,000,000 kg (about 3.4 x 10^18). Assuming that all debris is ejected equally on points of a sphere (which pictures look close enough to), we just need to figure out the effective part of a sphere that the moon of endor would need to subsume to go up 1 degree. Assuming Endor has Earth-like mass and gravity, geo-stationary orbit has radius of 42,164 km. At that range, the earth subsumes 0.0057 of the sphere. Using your numbers, that works out to a temperature rise of ~3000 degrees, assuming that everything hits simultaneously.

[Knaight]

Take another look at the Smithsonian article -- it covers secondary effects beyond the initial cataclysmic impact. Ejecta spraying out and falling to Earth again turned our planet's surface into a pizza oven for a few days. This is what I'd compare to Death Star debris-induced atmospheric heating.

The ejecta also come from actual impact.

[Obscuraphile]

Well, Jesus, this took off while I had food poisoning.... Also went on a bit of a tangent. Regardless, thanks for the answers. I must go read some novels now!:smallbiggrin:

[Friv]

If the imagery from EP IV & VI is anything to go by, the Deathstars seems to be rather effectively incinerated from their explosive demises. That and physics if off in a corner weeping uncontrollably in the SW-verse, so it was never an issue for me (although later books in the SW EU did use Deathstar debris on Endor to hide secret bases under). So ya' know, real internally consistent there. SW has some very Diskworldy moments at time, and you just have to roll with it.

The 200km diameter number for the DS2, and 90% air, and made entirely of steel give us 3,372,950,000,000,000,000 kg (about 3.4 x 10^18). Assuming that all debris is ejected equally on points of a sphere (which pictures look close enough to), we just need to figure out the effective part of a sphere that the moon of endor would need to subsume to go up 1 degree. Assuming Endor has Earth-like mass and gravity, geo-stationary orbit has radius of 42,164 km. At that range, the earth subsumes 0.0057 of the sphere. Using your numbers, that works out to a temperature rise of ~3000 degrees, assuming that everything hits simultaneously.

"Fortunately", the Expanded Universe has a simple answer for this (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader). The Death Stars used vast amounts of hypermatter to move around, so when they were destroyed, the hypermatter inside them sucked most of their material into wormholes and were deposited throughout hyperspace. Some of it got as far away as Mon Calamari. So only a small amount of material was in danger of hitting Endor, and most of it was stopped by the Rebels. The rest gets to have secret bases and whatnot.

...

The EU was very dumb, guys.

[Rockphed]

"Fortunately", the Expanded Universe has a simple answer for this (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader). The Death Stars used vast amounts of hypermatter to move around, so when they were destroyed, the hypermatter inside them sucked most of their material into wormholes and were deposited throughout hyperspace. Some of it got as far away as Mon Calamari. So only a small amount of material was in danger of hitting Endor, and most of it was stopped by the Rebels. The rest gets to have secret bases and whatnot.

...

The EU was very dumb, guys.

Oh, I don't doubt that. I never bothered to read the star wars books because they had a bit of a reputation as being dumber than the movies, and the movies were not bastions of intellectualism. Personally, I suspect that the reason Endor didn't burn lies in a combination of "the rebels shielded the planet from some of the debris", "the death star is smaller than is typically claimed", and "the way the death star was powered caused some of its mass to not de-orbit onto Endor".

[Peelee]

Oh, I don't doubt that. I never bothered to read the star wars books because they had a bit of a reputation as being dumber than the movies, and the movies were not bastions of intellectualism. Personally, I suspect that the reason Endor didn't burn lies in a combination of "the rebels shielded the planet from some of the debris", "the death star is smaller than is typically claimed", and "the way the death star was powered caused some of its mass to not de-orbit onto Endor".

Done if the books were fantastic. Some of them were.... in their own category of special, really. And some of them were just dumb fun. Like Starfighters of Adumar. Rednecks with a hero culture around pilots and duel with sword lasers, on a planet with a missile-based economy. That book promised dumb fun, and boy did it deliver.

[Knaight]

"Fortunately", the Expanded Universe has a simple answer for this (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader). The Death Stars used vast amounts of hypermatter to move around, so when they were destroyed, the hypermatter inside them sucked most of their material into wormholes and were deposited throughout hyperspace. Some of it got as far away as Mon Calamari. So only a small amount of material was in danger of hitting Endor, and most of it was stopped by the Rebels. The rest gets to have secret bases and whatnot.

I much prefer my answer of "it was far away, and space is big".

[factotum]

I suspect that the reason Endor didn't burn lies in a combination of "the rebels shielded the planet from some of the debris", "the death star is smaller than is typically claimed", and "the way the death star was powered caused some of its mass to not de-orbit onto Endor".

I think it's far more likely that the reason is "George Lucas didn't ever think about the consequences of a moon-sized space station blowing up in low orbit" and so completely ignored them. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

I think it's far more likely that the reason is "George Lucas didn't ever think about the consequences of a moon-sized space station blowing up in low orbit" and so completely ignored them. :smallsmile:

The latter is a Doylist answer. Sometimes people want Watsonian answers. :smallbiggrin:

Watsonian vs Doylist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist)

[Peelee]

I much prefer my answer of "it was far away, and space is big".

It's very close, though. Which is why I like, "more of it was vaporized than you'd think."

[Rockphed]

It's very close, though. Which is why I like, "more of it was vaporized than you'd think."

Alternatively, "more stayed in orbit than you think". I mean we see a pretty impressive expanding dust cloud, but that might just be the external layers. The central core might have been compressed in to a (quite large) hunk of molten slag and dead sith lords. If only 1% of the DS2 is included in the expanding cloud, then the temperature only goes up 30 degrees. Still a disaster, but not a world ending one.

[factotum]

It is worth noting that firing stuff straight down at the planet from something that's in orbit is about the least efficient way to get it there. I don't think that will have much effect in the DS2 explosion because the stuff being ejected is travelling so fast, though.